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Why the Hogs vs Tulsa Series needs to stay exactly as is (my rebuttal to Dave Sittler)

Started by Doug, November 04, 2012, 05:32:58 pm

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Doug

Direct link to Dave Sittler's "It's time for TU to stop playing Mr. Nice Guy and Arkansas" column
Direct link to "Mr. Sittler has sour grapes with his breakfast in T-Town" on Hogville.net
Direct link to Arkansas vs Tulsa Series records

I, like many others, had the opportunity to read Mr. Sittler's OpEd piece as to why Tulsa's gotten the short end of the stick when playing Arkansas. Fact of the matter, whether you agree with him or not, he does bring up an interesting point: Tulsa has played a disproportionate amount of games in Arkansas. 41 straight games, starting in 1953. Two in Little Rock (1973 & 1985) and 39 in Fayetteville. It's time to tackle the three main points/flaws that I see with Mr. Sittler's arguments. Some of these points were already brought up or alluded to in the original Hogville thread linked above.

#1: What Mr. Sittler might not understand is that there are some agreements in place that dictate how we can set up not only our conference games, but our OOC games.

The Southeastern Conference specifically states that a minimum of 6 Conference games must be played in a Home Stadium.

Further, the Arkansas Razorbacks have an agreement with War Memorial Stadium in Little Rock, AR that calls for one conference game and one OOC game to be played every year through 2016.

This locks up 6 home games and one non-conference game out of 12 every year. In most years, we have to play at least 3 conference road games (most years it's 4). This leaves 1-2 games a year that we have a bit of flexibility on. The problem becomes, however, is who to schedule, and where? Arkansas Razorback fans travel well and are known to buy up as many tickets as possible, especially marquee match ups. The issue is that playing games in a 30,000 seat stadium doesn't bring in the visibility/exposure that a school from a Power Conference really needs.

#2: What Mr. Sittler might also be forgetting is that there is a huge difference in not only Stadium size, but attendance, as well.

Before I dig into this argument, you should probably look at the stats I referenced. It took me a few hours to compile this information and get it human readable. I should note that I am only utilizing data from 1948 through 2010, since these are the only years that I could find direct attendance information for both schools and all three "home" stadiums. I should note that there are less than 5 home games on Tulsa's side where I could not obtain attendance information, so for these two years, the attendance figures might be slightly incorrect. Figures shown are yearly capacity totals, not on a per game capacity total.

Link to the Tulsa vs Arkansas Attendance Figures in PDF format

Hog fans pack a stadium very well. The last time the Razorbacks had a sub 90% capacity percentage was 1996. The last time Tulsa had higher than a 90% capacity percentage was... well... never.

If you take War Memorial Stadium in Little Rock (a stadium nearly twice the size of Tulsa's Chapman Stadium), the Razorbacks have averaged an overfilled stadium 8 years out of 11 (2000 - 2010).

Keeping in mind that Tulsa's stadium seats only 30,000 27,748, and already has issues filling the stadium consistently, how would you propose to accommodate for the well traveled Razorback fan? I should note that I saw where Chapman Stadium's seating capacity was downgraded several times.  Yes, so has Little Rock's, but only by 500 seats, not the nearly 18,000 seats Chapman's reduced over the years.

#3: Further, I should note that Tulsa is actually the third biggest/most prolific school in the State of Oklahoma, so this may also have a factor (both revenue and TV Markets).

Let's talk numbers. Tulsa gets a reported $1m for coming to Arkansas. That's not including the nearly 7500 seats Tulsa gets to sell for its allocation (an average $40 ticket price (I am intentionally underestimating ticket costs) yields an additional $300K in revenue). Travel expenses should be minimal for a two hour road trip.

I ran through some quick numbers. Season ticket sales total $4.3m annually (ESTIMATE ONLY). Let's add approximately $700K for single game ticket sales, bringing FB revenues to approximately $5 million a year. This means that each game brings in approximately $833,333. This is assuming 100% capacity, which we know is NOT the case here.

If you wanted Arkansas to come and play at Chapman Stadium, it's going to take a bit more than the $1 million Tulsa gets. Are you prepared to actually lose money on this deal? I would estimate that Tulsa would go into the red by $450,000 to have Arkansas come and play in Tulsa.

Fact of the matter is that it is not in anyone's best financial interest for Arkansas to come to Tulsa.

It's got to be tough being 3rd in the state, surrounded by two Power Conferences (Big 12 North, West and South of you as well as SEC to the West (twice) and South). I can't imagine the TV market for Tulsa being all too strong, compared to the Big 12 and SEC TV markets.

In this day and age, everything is driven by not just number of butts sitting in the seat at a Stadium. It's also driven by number of butts listening on Radio and watching (online and offline).

Dollar for Dollar and Fan for Fan, Tulsa simply doesn't have the financial resources nor the facilities for Arkansas to come play a game in Tulsa.

The only way this could potentially become a viable option is for Tulsa's own fans to start packing Chapman Stadium and for TU to expand to at least 50K, or for this game to be played neutrally in a stadium that can easily handle 50-70K people. The issue is that this is NOT a marquee match up (a 16-53-3 record against the Hogs proves this, time and time again).

I'm sorry, Mr. Sittler, if you're upset that the Hogs won't do a return game to Tulsa. It's just not financially possible to do so. Oh, and even if you think your own Athletic Director is a jerk, it seems that he's smart enough to realize the financial ramifications, as well. You've got to give him credit for that.

(For Hog fans, any comments about GSD will be bounced... this is not the thread for it. And yes, the same analogy can be applied to Arkansas State, sadly. And yes, I am one of those that would support an UA vs ASU game, if there weren't financial limitations on it.)

Edits above is due to clarification from Reply #7 on this thread. All inaccurate information now has a strikethrough it and corrected text immediately after it. The rest of the information above and in reply #3 are correct, however.
--Doug
Full time Web Developer, Sports junkie and Sports Personality

@BearlyDoug  |  @GridironHistory  |  @Hogville
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(If you have a tech question, please post in the Help forum, instead of private messaging or emailing me (unless I request it). Thanks!)

Ugly Uncle

Retired Radio Host

 

razorbackkid

Too long...didn't read.






j/k...

Great points.  You are a bit smarter than that walking bear might suggest.  :)
I would rather live as if there is a God and find out there isn't, than to live as if there isn't and find out there is.

Doug

Some additional points to note:

* I did not factor in any revenues from money collected for Tulsa to travel to OOC Opponents.

* The Tulsa Stadium Revenue numbers do NOT factor in any seat allocations to Opposing teams at Chapman Stadium (AKA 100% of the revenues shown are allocated to Tulsa). We all know that this is NOT the case. I estimate that between 2500 - 5000 seats are set aside for fans of opposing schools. This further hurts the actual total revenue estimates I've given above.
--Doug
Full time Web Developer, Sports junkie and Sports Personality

@BearlyDoug  |  @GridironHistory  |  @Hogville
TheFan.net | BearlyDoug.com | My plugins on WordPress.org | GridironHistory.com

(If you have a tech question, please post in the Help forum, instead of private messaging or emailing me (unless I request it). Thanks!)

RollHogTide


DukeOfPork

Simple as this: TU doesn't have to come play us.  They choose to.  Apparently, TU doesn't agree with him that it's a bad deal.  It's an easy road trip for their fans and they get a fat check.

pigmailyen


Hogtimes


Whew....did not care to wade through all of that, but I noticed some incorrect assumptions.   

First Tulsa's stadium does not seat 30,000 ...it actually seats 27,448 including all suites.

Second,  Tulsa did not get any income for the tickets allotted them.   IIR the exact figure correctly, Arkansas paid them a fee of $950,000 to play this game.  Arkansas keeps all ticket receeipts.    Tulsa pay their travel expenses out of their fee.

If Arkansas played Tulsa home and home the size of Tulsa's stadium or ticket sold etc under most contracts would have no bearing on what Arkansas receives.

The way most all home and home or 2 for 1 contracts work, is the home team keeps all receipts and pays the visiting team a set fee,  that is normally $300,000.   

For one and done contracts the home team pays a fee to the visiting team,  usually anywhere from $300,000 to a $1,000,000.    Home team keeps all receipts     

Doug

Stan, thank you for the clarification on the contract. I wasn't sure if we were including the Opponent seating allocation to that. How are tickets handled for opponent fans? Surely they're not sold through the host school's site.

I also appreciate the number clarifications, though it does not change my revenue numbers too terribly much. If anything, it bolsters my contention that Dave Sittler (and any other Tulsa fan) really need to be appreciative of the cash cow they get for the OOC game, even if it's not entirely fair from a schedule or records (or even a location) standpoint.

Stan, are you sure about that capacity? Even the official site states 30,000:
http://www.tulsahurricane.com/facilities/tuls-skelly-stadium.html
--Doug
Full time Web Developer, Sports junkie and Sports Personality

@BearlyDoug  |  @GridironHistory  |  @Hogville
TheFan.net | BearlyDoug.com | My plugins on WordPress.org | GridironHistory.com

(If you have a tech question, please post in the Help forum, instead of private messaging or emailing me (unless I request it). Thanks!)

Fatmanhog

to nutt or not to nutt, thats not even a question any more.

POST 1475 OF I JUST STEVEN HILL...
Quote from: alohawg on October 26, 2009, 03:44:04 PM
I think his comes naturally, hermaphrodite??? A new nickname maybe, 'the mighty hermaphrodity'

The Hermaphronutt

EastArkHog 47

If Tulsa never plays another game in DWR or WMS its no great loss to the UofA. If we were to play a two for one home and home it would be much better to do it with someone like Memphis who has a 65,000 seat stadium, plus there's a lot of talent in the Memphis area both football and basketball.

ncrebel

Quote from: fatmanhog on November 05, 2012, 02:49:16 am
i like the fact that Tulsa played hogville.

This is true.  The rebuttal was good but it is Tulsa.  No rebuttal required.
Well, y'all need me, I'll be putting pictures of my arse on the internet.

Doug

Quote from: fatmanhogi like the fact that Tulsa played hogville.
Damn your eagle eyes! (good catch... thank you. Fixed that sucker, haha!)
--Doug
Full time Web Developer, Sports junkie and Sports Personality

@BearlyDoug  |  @GridironHistory  |  @Hogville
TheFan.net | BearlyDoug.com | My plugins on WordPress.org | GridironHistory.com

(If you have a tech question, please post in the Help forum, instead of private messaging or emailing me (unless I request it). Thanks!)

 

Fatty McGee

Quote from: Douglas on November 04, 2012, 05:32:58 pm
The issue is that playing games in a 30,000 seat stadium doesn't bring in the visibility/exposure that a school from a Power Conference really needs.

Keeping in mind that Tulsa's stadium seats only 30,000 27,748, and already has issues filling the stadium consistently, how would you propose to accommodate for the well traveled Razorback fan?

In this day and age, everything is driven by not just number of butts sitting in the seat at a Stadium. It's also driven by number of butts listening on Radio and watching (online and offline).

Dollar for Dollar and Fan for Fan, Tulsa simply doesn't have the financial resources nor the facilities for Arkansas to come play a game in Tulsa.

All of the above are true.  However, OU and OSU manage to play at least one out of every three or four games in Tulsa.  When they do, the environment, even in a small stadium, is electric, the City of Tulsa shuts down the surrounding streets, and it is a great time at the game.

If all of the factors you mention are true for Arkansas, they're equally true for OU and OSU.  So why do they do it?  Presumably the same reasons we would.  To be in the backyard of a major recruiting base, and to bring a game locally to a place with a large population of fans.

I realize what probably keeps this from happening more than anything is War Memorial games, though.  We already basically do this for Little Rock.
Bandit: Hey wait a minute, wait a minute. Why do you want that beer so bad?
Little Enos: Cause he's thirsty, dummy!

Hogtimes

Quote from: Douglas on November 05, 2012, 12:16:00 am
Stan, thank you for the clarification on the contract. I wasn't sure if we were including the Opponent seating allocation to that. How are tickets handled for opponent fans? Surely they're not sold through the host school's site.

I also appreciate the number clarifications, though it does not change my revenue numbers too terribly much. If anything, it bolsters my contention that Dave Sittler (and any other Tulsa fan) really need to be appreciative of the cash cow they get for the OOC game, even if it's not entirely fair from a schedule or records (or even a location) standpoint.

Stan, are you sure about that capacity? Even the official site states 30,000:
http://www.tulsahurricane.com/facilities/tuls-skelly-stadium.html

Tickets for opponent fans are sold thru their ticket office.   Arkansas would ship say 4,000 tickets to Tulsa and they would sell what they could to their fans and return any unsold along with the money received for those sold

Yes, I am absolutely certain  the  seating capacity  for Tulsa's stadium is 27,448.   I know this for a fact and so do most TU fans.  TU is notorious for hyping their program, therefore they say 30,000 because it sounds better .     If you ask people at their athletic offfices, they will tell you 30,000 is not correct.   


nwarazfan

This is a reason to not open the door to Ark St too.  The whining about the Hogs going to JB would start up. 

Doug

Stan, again, thank you for the corrections. The great news is that whether it's 30K seats or 27,748 doesn't matter. I actually undervalued the remaining seats down to $25 per ticket (wanted to do an average), so the final numbers should be pretty spot on (again, assuming they fill up the stadium).

SO glad I covered my ass on that one, haha!
--Doug
Full time Web Developer, Sports junkie and Sports Personality

@BearlyDoug  |  @GridironHistory  |  @Hogville
TheFan.net | BearlyDoug.com | My plugins on WordPress.org | GridironHistory.com

(If you have a tech question, please post in the Help forum, instead of private messaging or emailing me (unless I request it). Thanks!)

Hogtimes

Quote from: Fatty McGee on November 05, 2012, 09:15:49 am
All of the above are true.  However, OU and OSU manage to play at least one out of every three or four games in Tulsa.   

If all of the factors you mention are true for Arkansas, they're equally true for OU and OSU.  So why do they do it?  Presumably the same reasons we would.  To be in the backyard of a major recruiting base, and to bring a game locally to a place with a large population of fans.

I realize what probably keeps this from happening more than anything is War Memorial games, though.  We already basically do this for Little Rock.

Main reason OU and OSU play at Tulsa periodically, is pressure from the many OU and OSU alums that are influential  business people living in Tulsa.   They think it is good for them.

OSU has always strongly resisted playing  Tulsa  and they have now decided they will play no more games with Tulsa.   That has been made public.   OSU has one more  game  scheduled with Tulsa in Stillwater in 2017.  After that there will be no more games between the two schools. 


Pigsknuckles

I live in Tulsa and have to endure every season with the "Arkansas owes us a home game" rant. Mind if I print your post and keep it handy for the local whiners?
"the ox is slow, but the Earth is patient"

Doug

Knock yourself out, PK. I'm still waiting on Dave Sittler to try to counter this. :)

Maybe we should all pelt him on Twitter (@DaveSittler) with a link to this and ask him to respond. ;)
--Doug
Full time Web Developer, Sports junkie and Sports Personality

@BearlyDoug  |  @GridironHistory  |  @Hogville
TheFan.net | BearlyDoug.com | My plugins on WordPress.org | GridironHistory.com

(If you have a tech question, please post in the Help forum, instead of private messaging or emailing me (unless I request it). Thanks!)

DeltaBoy

If the South should lose, it means that the history of the heroic struggle will be written by the enemy, that our youth will be trained by Northern school teachers, will be impressed by all of the influences of history and education to regard our gallant dead as traitors and our maimed veterans as fit subjects for derision.
-- Major General Patrick Cleburne
The Confederacy had no better soldiers
than the Arkansans--fearless, brave, and oftentimes courageous beyond
prudence. Dickart History of Kershaws Brigade.

Pigsknuckles

Quote from: Douglas on November 05, 2012, 12:38:52 pm
Knock yourself out, PK. I'm still waiting on Dave Sittler to try to counter this. :)

Maybe we should all pelt him on Twitter (@DaveSittler) with a link to this and ask him to respond. ;)

Ctrl+P
"the ox is slow, but the Earth is patient"

tiber

This is where the program has fallen to after a brief stint with a winner...


A series with Tulsa has become a major topic of discussion.


Guess Arkansas is back in it's comfort zone. 




Fatty McGee

Quote from: Stan on November 05, 2012, 09:55:50 am
Main reason OU and OSU play at Tulsa periodically, is pressure from the many OU and OSU alums that are influential  business people living in Tulsa.   They think it is good for them.

OSU has always strongly resisted playing  Tulsa  and they have now decided they will play no more games with Tulsa.   That has been made public.   OSU has one more  game  scheduled with Tulsa in Stillwater in 2017.  After that there will be no more games between the two schools. 



Probably true on the first paragraph.  It's akin to our Little Rock issue.
Bandit: Hey wait a minute, wait a minute. Why do you want that beer so bad?
Little Enos: Cause he's thirsty, dummy!

 

NaturalStateReb

Quote from: DukeOfPork on November 04, 2012, 06:30:14 pm
Simple as this: TU doesn't have to come play us.  They choose to.  Apparently, TU doesn't agree with him that it's a bad deal.  It's an easy road trip for their fans and they get a fat check.

That's my rebuttal, too.  There's no law that says that Tulsa has to play Arkansas.  If they feel that they're not getting a square deal, stop playing. 

Mizzou would probably work some deal out with them.
"It's a trap!"--Houston Nutt and Admiral Ackbar, although Ackbar never called that play or ate that frito pie.

El Puerco Rojo

Quote from: nwarazfan on November 05, 2012, 09:43:57 am
This is a reason to not open the door to Ark St too.  The whining about the Hogs going to JB would start up.

If we were to play Ark state it would be in Little Rock every year. Or at least it should.