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Author Topic: Conjecture  (Read 4294 times)

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MuskogeeHogFan

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Re: Conjecture
« Reply #50 on: February 01, 2018, 06:51:11 am »

I remember BP's first year.  We stunk, but we had enough bright spots that you could tell that we were on the right track...just didn't have the players.  That's seriously all I'm asking for.  I think one of the primary differences is, we actually have more talent at WR and RB than what BP inherited.  I want to THINK we have an O-line that should be better, but after last year's debacle, I'm in complete "wait and see" mode regarding that.  Talent wise, while I think we're a long way from the SEC's elite programs right now, I do think there's more than what BP inherited, and more in terms of players needed for their style than what BB inherited.  That's a positive.   

From an offensive scheme perspective, I think it will be centered more on getting players in space, and trying to create running lanes with formations.  That will only work if we're effecting at establishing the threat of "quick hitting" passing plays.  Unlike Malzahn's offenses, having a true "running" QB isn't required, but someone closer to a dual threat that can run a little will give us another dimension.  I don't see him foregoing a solid accurate passing QB for one that is a better runner...no way.

I think we will run an offense that will be much more about fast passing plays that function as runs...3,4, 5 yards, and make the defense cover the entire field, and try to wear them down to open up the run.  Occasional deep ball once we catch them "creeping up" on the LOS. 

Defensively...there's no secret there, because we've seen what Chavis wants to do.  I know, I know...he says in his radio interviews that he will adapt to the players we have and that he knows better than to try to force a square peg in a round hole, but I don't believe that for one second.  He's going to do what he always does...a pressure oriented defense that will blitz from every position and angle, and force the QB to make fast decisions.  A lot of man on the outside, but I could see us mixing that up if our corners aren't able to cover effectively, by adding a second safety in some instances.  I don't believe for one second that he's going to play bend but don't break.  We may break a lot, but he's going to at least try to dictate.   

But ya know...there's an art to blitzing and actually TACKLING the QB.  In years' past, we have had blitzers who get to the front porch, but don't make it in the front door to actually GET HOME.  It takes some talent to actually force the QB's hand, and be able to make the tackle.  We'll see if we have a few folks on the team that can actually be effective doing it.

If there is one thing that I'm sure of....it's that we will NOT line up in the I formation on 2nd and 1, and the subsequent 3rd and 3, and try to PROVE anything.  I've seen some bad things at UA football, but that was perhaps the most frustrating thing I've ever seen to watch the opponent stack 11 in the box, and us line up to try to run over them.  Perplexing....and I'm being kind.       



More pressure will help. Last season we registered 1 sack in every 18.2 passing attempts. A&M was twice as good at 1 sack in every 9.6 passing attempts. The pressure will be on the Secondary to improve in coverage but it may also offer greater opportunities for PBU's and INT's by forcing the QB to get rid of the ball earlier, provided that we can improve our Sack and Hurry numbers.
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urkillnmesmalls

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Re: Conjecture
« Reply #51 on: February 01, 2018, 10:23:07 am »

More pressure will help. Last season we registered 1 sack in every 18.2 passing attempts. A&M was twice as good at 1 sack in every 9.6 passing attempts. The pressure will be on the Secondary to improve in coverage but it may also offer greater opportunities for PBU's and INT's by forcing the QB to get rid of the ball earlier, provided that we can improve our Sack and Hurry numbers.

More pressure SHOULD help, but we have to see how our corners handle the extra responsibility.  They will have to be disciplined, slow down the WR's at the LOS, and get their heads around.  I think playing cornerback is one of the most difficult and athletic things to do in all of sports.  If people haven't tried it, then it's hard to understand how difficult it is to anticipate what the WR is going to do, and stay close enough when he knows where he's going and you're reacting to it, to make a play on the ball and/or be in position to make the tackle.  For those who haven't watched an NFL game in person, THAT is what stands out to me...watching the corners.  They can seemingly run backward as fast as forward and shift directions on a dime.  It's unreal.   

Every year, that's what sets Bama apart.  Their corners are physical, fast, and athletic.  That opens up a TON of things you can do on defense. 

That's the primary concern in my mind.  Do we have corners on campus that can play that style, and it will have to be 3-4 good ones, because it's going to be much more tiring playing man.  If we have that, then we may be much better than some people anticipate, right out of the gate.

I haven't paid any attention to the depth chart, but I'm assuming we're probably still going to be a little weak at the LB position.  That seems to be our consistent bugaboo, and hopefully getting Chavis aboard can change that, and we'll land a few big recruits moving forward.     
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MuskogeeHogFan

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Re: Conjecture
« Reply #52 on: February 01, 2018, 11:42:27 am »

More pressure SHOULD help, but we have to see how our corners handle the extra responsibility.  They will have to be disciplined, slow down the WR's at the LOS, and get their heads around.  I think playing cornerback is one of the most difficult and athletic things to do in all of sports.  If people haven't tried it, then it's hard to understand how difficult it is to anticipate what the WR is going to do, and stay close enough when he knows where he's going and you're reacting to it, to make a play on the ball and/or be in position to make the tackle.  For those who haven't watched an NFL game in person, THAT is what stands out to me...watching the corners.  They can seemingly run backward as fast as forward and shift directions on a dime.  It's unreal.   

Every year, that's what sets Bama apart.  Their corners are physical, fast, and athletic.  That opens up a TON of things you can do on defense. 

That's the primary concern in my mind.  Do we have corners on campus that can play that style, and it will have to be 3-4 good ones, because it's going to be much more tiring playing man.  If we have that, then we may be much better than some people anticipate, right out of the gate.

I haven't paid any attention to the depth chart, but I'm assuming we're probably still going to be a little weak at the LB position.  That seems to be our consistent bugaboo, and hopefully getting Chavis aboard can change that, and we'll land a few big recruits moving forward.     

I don't disagree, as I said above. But even in the absence of lock-down corners, I'll take more pressure up front rather than less pressure, any day of the week and twice on Sundays. Think back to last season. Not much pressure and no lock-down Corners. Yeah, I'll take more pressure any day, with or without lock-down CB's. Obviously I would prefer "with" but one step at a time.
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urkillnmesmalls

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Re: Conjecture
« Reply #53 on: February 01, 2018, 12:18:45 pm »

I don't disagree, as I said above. But even in the absence of lock-down corners, I'll take more pressure up front rather than less pressure, any day of the week and twice on Sundays. Think back to last season. Not much pressure and no lock-down Corners. Yeah, I'll take more pressure any day, with or without lock-down CB's. Obviously I would prefer "with" but one step at a time.

We agree on that for sure.  There's a middle ground where we can bring timely blitzes, but still play zone on the back end and force quick decisions.  We may land there if our secondary isn't able to execute how he would like them to in a perfect world.  I'm fine with that.  I'd rather see us dictate, get some turnovers, and maybe even give up a big play or two...than watch teams methodically pass it down the field with the QB not even getting touched. 
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justmakeit2thebcs

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Re: Conjecture
« Reply #54 on: February 01, 2018, 01:18:27 pm »

If you can't feasibly understand how the spread works, there is nothing to explain as to why you would want a mobile quarterback in this scenario.
Why in year 3 at SMU, does the starting QB have less yards and the same attempts as Cole Kelly (a 280 backup QB with 4 starts)?  Is it because Morris can't recruit a moblie QB or doesn't need one ?
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steveaustin69

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Re: Conjecture
« Reply #55 on: February 01, 2018, 01:34:04 pm »

Why in year 3 at SMU, does the starting QB have less yards and the same attempts as Cole Kelly (a 280 backup QB with 4 starts)?  Is it because Morris can't recruit a moblie QB or doesn't need one ?

You're making entirely too much sense. Please stop.
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Hogindasticks

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Re: Conjecture
« Reply #56 on: February 01, 2018, 02:36:30 pm »

Its because SMU didn't need one as much as we are going to.   We definitely need that option for 3rd and long.  Steve,this is the SEC.....if you don't get that another option for rushing is crucial for our success......again.....you don't understand the spread.  Much harder to key on a back when the quarterback can run too.  Especially with no back in the backfield.  Easier to spread the defense this way.  This is NOT going to be CBB football.
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steveaustin69

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Re: Conjecture
« Reply #57 on: February 01, 2018, 02:53:10 pm »

Its because SMU didn't need one as much as we are going to.   We definitely need that option for 3rd and long.  Steve,this is the SEC.....if you don't get that another option for rushing is crucial for our success......again.....you don't understand the spread.  Much harder to key on a back when the quarterback can run too.  Especially with no back in the backfield.  Easier to spread the defense this way.  This is NOT going to be CBB football.

Why do we need one, but SMU didn't?  They were operating at a talent deficit relative to their opponent just like we will in the majority of our conference games.

How does a mobile qb help you so much on third and long? Is the only requirement for not being CBB football having a mobile qb?

We averaged 4.4 YPC last year; Auburn averaged 4.8 YPC. Our running game, while it could have been better, was the least of our problems last year.

A spread offense can be run with or without a mobile quarterback. Not sure why you are hung up on that. 

Finally, who on the current roster or coming in is going to be this world beater Mike Vick esque quarterback you envision?
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racinghog

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Re: Conjecture
« Reply #58 on: February 01, 2018, 03:27:13 pm »

Why in year 3 at SMU, does the starting QB have less yards and the same attempts as Cole Kelly (a 280 backup QB with 4 starts)?  Is it because Morris can't recruit a moblie QB or doesn't need one ?
Lets not forget that sacks count against the QB's rushing stats.
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Re: Conjecture
« Reply #59 on: February 01, 2018, 04:11:03 pm »

Why do we need one, but SMU didn't?  They were operating at a talent deficit relative to their opponent just like we will in the majority of our conference games.

How does a mobile qb help you so much on third and long? Is the only requirement for not being CBB football having a mobile qb?

We averaged 4.4 YPC last year; Auburn averaged 4.8 YPC. Our running game, while it could have been better, was the least of our problems last year.

A spread offense can be run with or without a mobile quarterback. Not sure why you are hung up on that. 

Finally, who on the current roster or coming in is going to be this world beater Mike Vick esque quarterback you envision?

 The more you type the more I see we agree on almost everything. Excellent points all throughout this thread dude...
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SooieGeneris

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Re: Conjecture
« Reply #60 on: February 01, 2018, 04:15:13 pm »

One that can run a screen? I hope so!

We have been running screens a lot the last 2 years with a lot of success. With that said the strength coach Carroll wants the linemen to be more flexible still.
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SooieGeneris

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Re: Conjecture
« Reply #61 on: February 01, 2018, 04:49:23 pm »

This thread has turned into a debate on the merits of a mobile vs a statue QB, or at least one with average mobility. Years ago Frank Broyles made a comment on the spread that was often misquoted.

Broyles did not say a spread would not work in the SEC, he said it would not work without a dual threat QB. Urban Meyer had a lot of success running a version of the spread.

His greatest successes were with Tebow, although they won a NC with Chris somebody who wasn't especially good at running or throwing.

Auburn has had Chris Todd and some other non-dual threats at QB in the era of Malzahn as either OC or HC. When they have had a non runner, they usually win 8 games or so. When they have had a dual threat, Newton, Marshall or Stidham, they won 10 or more and contended for the SEC title with one exception.

Just because CM did not have a dual threat at SMU does NOT mean that isn't the ideal for his offense. It's called going with the best you have. Among Kelley, Storey or Hyatt, whoever can run his offense the best will start in 2018.

It is silly to conclude that a man who recruited Chad Kelly and DeShaun Watson to Clemson is going to permanently want to go with a non dual threat QB from now on because he didn't have one at SMU.

This just in: there is a difference between SMU's conference and the SEC West... This staff did not make a push for Bohannon and the kid from OK who signed with Texas just because or in spite of their dual threat abilities.

There is a difference in players you can recruit to an SEC school and SMU in a lot of cases.

That is what he will be looking for first at QB in the future to run this offense. If he can't get it, he will go with the best non runner available IMO.

Only on Hogville would the takeaway from Morris' SMU days be that he doesn't want or need a dual threat QB because he didn't have one there.

And one of the best things about a dual threat QB is having one who has the ability to run for a first down or TD in 3rd down or 3rd and goal situations, whether long or short.

On 3rd down the defense is often in man coverage, therefore their backs are turned to the QB and by the time they turn, the QB is often already out of the pocket. A spread offense with a dual threat QB is much harder to defend than one with a pocket passer.

3,2,1... I am waiting for the Hogville "experts" to tell me now that Morris does not run a spread offense and we need to get the biggest, slowest, clumsiest QB we can find to run his offense effectively. I will wait for one of the experts to tell me what his offense REALLY is and how his QB at SMU is REALLY what he is looking for in spite of the QBs he recruited and coached at Clemson..

His offense at Clemson is a much greater indicator of what he intends to do here than what he did at SMU, in my opinion. Feel free to disagree if you want, but good luck convincing me otherwise.
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Re: Conjecture
« Reply #62 on: February 01, 2018, 05:26:22 pm »

Historically Arkansas has been undersized compared to the Big boys but they had speed. I remember playing Alabama in the Sugar bowl when Holtz was here.  We stayed close in the first half but Alabama’s strength and depth pulled away in the second.
One unfair shot at Bielema was that he blew too many leads. I've been watching the Hogs since I was around 5 or 6 years old (so 1987 or 88) and one thing we have ALWAYS done is blow leads in the second half. That was not unique to Bielema.
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steveaustin69

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Re: Conjecture
« Reply #63 on: February 01, 2018, 05:31:42 pm »

This thread has turned into a debate on the merits of a mobile vs a statue QB, or at least one with average mobility. Years ago Frank Broyles made a comment on the spread that was often misquoted.

Broyles did not say a spread would not work in the SEC, he said it would not work without a dual threat QB. Urban Meyer had a lot of success running a version of the spread.

His greatest successes were with Tebow, although they won a NC with Chris somebody who wasn't especially good at running or throwing.

Auburn has had Chris Todd and some other non-dual threats at QB in the era of Malzahn as either OC or HC. When they have had a non runner, they usually win 8 games or so. When they have had a dual threat, Newton, Marshall or Stidham, they won 10 or more and contended for the SEC title with one exception.

Just because CM did not have a dual threat at SMU does NOT mean that isn't the ideal for his offense. It's called going with the best you have. Among Kelley, Storey or Hyatt, whoever can run his offense the best will start in 2018.

It is silly to conclude that a man who recruited Chad Kelly and DeShaun Watson to Clemson is going to permanently want to go with a non dual threat QB from now on because he didn't have one at SMU.

This just in: there is a difference between SMU's conference and the SEC West... This staff did not make a push for Bohannon and the kid from OK who signed with Texas just because or in spite of their dual threat abilities.

There is a difference in players you can recruit to an SEC school and SMU in a lot of cases.

That is what he will be looking for first at QB in the future to run this offense. If he can't get it, he will go with the best non runner available IMO.

Only on Hogville would the takeaway from Morris' SMU days be that he doesn't want or need a dual threat QB because he didn't have one there.

And one of the best things about a dual threat QB is having one who has the ability to run for a first down or TD in 3rd down or 3rd and goal situations, whether long or short.

On 3rd down the defense is often in man coverage, therefore their backs are turned to the QB and by the time they turn, the QB is often already out of the pocket. A spread offense with a dual threat QB is much harder to defend than one with a pocket passer.

3,2,1... I am waiting for the Hogville "experts" to tell me now that Morris does not run a spread offense and we need to get the biggest, slowest, clumsiest QB we can find to run his offense effectively. I will wait for one of the experts to tell me what his offense REALLY is and how his QB at SMU is REALLY what he is looking for in spite of the QBs he recruited and coached at Clemson..

His offense at Clemson is a much greater indicator of what he intends to do here than what he did at SMU, in my opinion. Feel free to disagree if you want, but good luck convincing me otherwise.

tl; dr You don't need a mobile quarterback to run a spread offense. All spread offense means is you *gasp* spread the defense out.  Malzahn's spread is more like the Wing T than it is Mike Leach's TTU air raid days. It's crazy how Baylor ran an explosive spread offense with multiple types of quarterbacks (see RGIII and Bryce Petty.) You don't need a mobile quarterback to run an effective spread offense; plain and simple. End of discussion.
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Hogindasticks

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Re: Conjecture
« Reply #64 on: February 01, 2018, 05:45:50 pm »

Yup, I know that no one's quarterback is every effective when the defense is downfield.   smh  I don't see Cole Kelley cutting it.....sorry.
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steveaustin69

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Re: Conjecture
« Reply #65 on: February 01, 2018, 05:47:26 pm »

Yup, I know that no one's quarterback is every effective when the defense is downfield.   smh

Hard hitting stuff
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Hogindasticks

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Re: Conjecture
« Reply #66 on: February 01, 2018, 08:48:51 pm »

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liljo

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Re: Conjecture
« Reply #67 on: February 01, 2018, 10:17:55 pm »

Dual-threat QB: A QB who can throw OR run.

In what offensive scheme would that not be an advantage?
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Hogindasticks

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Re: Conjecture
« Reply #68 on: February 01, 2018, 10:18:51 pm »

Dual-threat QB: A QB who can throw OR run.

In what offensive scheme would that not be an advantage?

The one that Steve says we can have one sitting in a wheelchair behind our awesome OLine and wait to get sacked.
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Hogindasticks

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Re: Conjecture
« Reply #69 on: February 01, 2018, 10:20:54 pm »

tl; dr You don't need a mobile quarterback to run a spread offense. All spread offense means is you *gasp* spread the defense out.  Malzahn's spread is more like the Wing T than it is Mike Leach's TTU air raid days. It's crazy how Baylor ran an explosive spread offense with multiple types of quarterbacks (see RGIII and Bryce Petty.) You don't need a mobile quarterback to run an effective spread offense; plain and simple. End of discussion.

Yeah, I guess Cam Newton didn't have anything to do with their success at Auburn huh....geeze.
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SooieGeneris

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Re: Conjecture
« Reply #70 on: February 01, 2018, 11:00:08 pm »

tl; dr You don't need a mobile quarterback to run a spread offense. All spread offense means is you *gasp* spread the defense out.  Malzahn's spread is more like the Wing T than it is Mike Leach's TTU air raid days. It's crazy how Baylor ran an explosive spread offense with multiple types of quarterbacks (see RGIII and Bryce Petty.) You don't need a mobile quarterback to run an effective spread offense; plain and simple. End of discussion.

Sigh.. I KNOW what a spread offense is, genius. I know Malzahn's spread is nowhere near Mike Leach's air raid offense, at least not the Malzahn offense at Auburn. You might want to study Gus' offense at Tulsa.. it was very different than at Auburn, much more passing.

Before you attempt to talk down to people, you might want to make a much better argument than the one in that post.

Name one spread type offense in the SEC that has succeeded beyond winning 7-8 games without a dual threat QB that was not loaded with talent. No less than the most successful coach in UA history said that the spread offense would NOT work IN THE SEC without a dual threat at QB, but I'm sure you know much more football than Broyles did..

We will go with the best we have in 2018, maybe beyond, as Morris puts his stamp on this program. We may not have a dual threat QB at first. I am telling you that that is likely to be his goal moving forward as he tries to move beyond hoping for 6,7 or 8 wins a year. Otherwise, he would not have attempted to make a last minute pitch to Bohannon and the Tulsa area QB, both dual threats.

When they signed early, he attempted to recruit James Foster II, a dual threat QB out of Alabama. You can persist in your belief that we will continue to recruit slow footed pocket passers if you wish. Some people persist in their belief that the moon landing was fake and TV wrestling is real. We will eventually find out what type of QB is his ideal. If I'm proven wrong, I'll own it, will you if you are proven wrong?

Here is a good read explaining how much harder it is to defend a dual threat QB. Quotes from some guy named Saban, Nick, not Lou..

http://www.spreadoffense.com/ssp/nick_saban_spread

I suggest you pay particular attention to #3 in which Saban talks about "the 11th gap" created by the DT QB. No one has said you MUST have a dual threat to run a "spread" offense. Jim Kelly ran the K-Gun at Buffalo, Dan Fouts ran Air Coryell, both versions of the spread in the NFL and neither was a runner. However, to run it to it's maximum potential at the college level it is important.

Both of those guys had several years of starting experience before running those offenses, something no college QB ever has more than 4 of. They could read the defense and get the ball out of their hand quickly without having to run. But they didn't run RPOs or zone reads either. If the QB is not a good runner, the defense will force the QB to keep the ball and pound the daylights out of him on the zone read.

I have to throw down the BS card on the statement at the end of your post. When we start playing Baylor's schedule or another team's that has run spread w/o a dual threat OUTSIDE THE SEC get back to me, but you can't name a team that has has excelled at running a spread in the SEC without a dual threat at QB.

Urban Meyer/Tim Tebow
Gus Malzahn (as OC) Cam Newton
Gus Malzahn (as HC) Nick Marshall, Jarrett Stidham
Dan Mullen/Dak Prescott, Nick Fitzgerald

Kevin Sumlin/Johnny Manziel
Hugh Freeze/Chad Kelly, Shea Patterson

Contrast that with:

Malzahn/Chris Todd
Sumlin/Kyle Allen

"I made a clear statement that this offense won't work in the SEC unless the quarterback runs the ball," Broyles said. "I said, 'If the quarterback is a runner, it'll work.' But if your quarterback's not a runner, in my judgment and in the judgment of most of the people, it wouldn't work without the quarterback running the ball."

Broyles said blocking challenges are different in an offense like Malzahn's. He pointed out that West Virginia has used a spread, no-huddle offense successfully, but Mountaineers quarterback Pat White is a dangerous runner.

"It'll work when you've got the best players," Broyles said. "Any offense will."
« Last Edit: February 02, 2018, 01:04:40 am by SooieGeneris »
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plumbhog

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Re: Conjecture
« Reply #71 on: February 02, 2018, 01:23:00 am »

Based on recruiting so far, it looks like he's a little more concerned with Chavis having immediate success than himself.
 
Opposing Quarterbacks will find that big success comes with lot's of pain.
 
Chase Haden will cause several to have nightmares. 

Probably finish the first year with 7-9 wins and embarrass someone we were supposed to lose to.

And Bama will have to break a sweat this year.
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steveaustin69

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Re: Conjecture
« Reply #72 on: February 02, 2018, 08:43:44 am »

Sigh.. I KNOW what a spread offense is, genius. I know Malzahn's spread is nowhere near Mike Leach's air raid offense, at least not the Malzahn offense at Auburn. You might want to study Gus' offense at Tulsa.. it was very different than at Auburn, much more passing.

Before you attempt to talk down to people, you might want to make a much better argument than the one in that post.

Name one spread type offense in the SEC that has succeeded beyond winning 7-8 games without a dual threat QB that was not loaded with talent. No less than the most successful coach in UA history said that the spread offense would NOT work IN THE SEC without a dual threat at QB, but I'm sure you know much more football than Broyles did..

We will go with the best we have in 2018, maybe beyond, as Morris puts his stamp on this program. We may not have a dual threat QB at first. I am telling you that that is likely to be his goal moving forward as he tries to move beyond hoping for 6,7 or 8 wins a year. Otherwise, he would not have attempted to make a last minute pitch to Bohannon and the Tulsa area QB, both dual threats.

When they signed early, he attempted to recruit James Foster II, a dual threat QB out of Alabama. You can persist in your belief that we will continue to recruit slow footed pocket passers if you wish. Some people persist in their belief that the moon landing was fake and TV wrestling is real. We will eventually find out what type of QB is his ideal. If I'm proven wrong, I'll own it, will you if you are proven wrong?

Here is a good read explaining how much harder it is to defend a dual threat QB. Quotes from some guy named Saban, Nick, not Lou..

http://www.spreadoffense.com/ssp/nick_saban_spread

I suggest you pay particular attention to #3 in which Saban talks about "the 11th gap" created by the DT QB. No one has said you MUST have a dual threat to run a "spread" offense. Jim Kelly ran the K-Gun at Buffalo, Dan Fouts ran Air Coryell, both versions of the spread in the NFL and neither was a runner. However, to run it to it's maximum potential at the college level it is important.

Both of those guys had several years of starting experience before running those offenses, something no college QB ever has more than 4 of. They could read the defense and get the ball out of their hand quickly without having to run. But they didn't run RPOs or zone reads either. If the QB is not a good runner, the defense will force the QB to keep the ball and pound the daylights out of him on the zone read.

I have to throw down the BS card on the statement at the end of your post. When we start playing Baylor's schedule or another team's that has run spread w/o a dual threat OUTSIDE THE SEC get back to me, but you can't name a team that has has excelled at running a spread in the SEC without a dual threat at QB.

Urban Meyer/Tim Tebow
Gus Malzahn (as OC) Cam Newton
Gus Malzahn (as HC) Nick Marshall, Jarrett Stidham
Dan Mullen/Dak Prescott, Nick Fitzgerald

Kevin Sumlin/Johnny Manziel
Hugh Freeze/Chad Kelly, Shea Patterson

Contrast that with:

Malzahn/Chris Todd
Sumlin/Kyle Allen

"I made a clear statement that this offense won't work in the SEC unless the quarterback runs the ball," Broyles said. "I said, 'If the quarterback is a runner, it'll work.' But if your quarterback's not a runner, in my judgment and in the judgment of most of the people, it wouldn't work without the quarterback running the ball."

Broyles said blocking challenges are different in an offense like Malzahn's. He pointed out that West Virginia has used a spread, no-huddle offense successfully, but Mountaineers quarterback Pat White is a dangerous runner.

"It'll work when you've got the best players," Broyles said. "Any offense will."


again tl;dr. If you try to fit a square peg in a round hole it will never work. Malzahn didn't tailor his offense to Todd.  You don't need a mobile quarterback to run an effective spread offense anywhere.  You do, however, need good players which you, I and Broyles agree on.  Type until you get blue in the face again; I'm not gonna read all that, because you don't need a mobile quarterback to run an effective spread offense.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2018, 08:58:27 am by steveaustin69 »
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Re: Conjecture
« Reply #73 on: February 02, 2018, 10:13:14 am »

again tl;dr. If you try to fit a square peg in a round hole it will never work. Malzahn didn't tailor his offense to Todd.  You don't need a mobile quarterback to run an effective spread offense anywhere.  You do, however, need good players which you, I and Broyles agree on.  Type until you get blue in the face again; I'm not gonna read all that, because you don't need a mobile quarterback to run an effective spread offense.

Man, you're a stubborn one aren't you?  In the end, you're saying you don't care what conference it is, a non-mobile QB can run a spread offense effectively in the SEC. 

He just showed you several examples of how proven spread offenses work in the SEC, but ONLY when they have a mobile QB that can do more than just scramble when things break down. 

So...one of you is right, and one is wrong.  No offense, but I'd probably tend to go by history than your opinion. 

The good news is...unless there's a QB on campus that I'm unaware of, we're going to see if Morris's spread offense can work in the SEC without a true dual threat QB. 

Will the debate still rage on after we've seen what happens?  If so, will you change your moniker to "The Mule?"   ;D
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steveaustin69

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Re: Conjecture
« Reply #74 on: February 02, 2018, 10:18:30 am »

Man, you're a stubborn one aren't you?  In the end, you're saying you don't care what conference it is, a non-mobile QB can run a spread offense effectively in the SEC. 

He just showed you several examples of how proven spread offenses work in the SEC, but ONLY when they have a mobile QB that can do more than just scramble when things break down. 

So...one of you is right, and one is wrong.  No offense, but I'd probably tend to go by history than your opinion. 

The good news is...unless there's a QB on campus that I'm unaware of, we're going to see if Morris's spread offense can work in the SEC without a true dual threat QB. 

Will the debate still rage on after we've seen what happens?  If so, will you change your moniker to "The Mule?"   ;D

I acknowledged you still need good players. Kyle Allen couldn't start at Houston; if you think Todd was a good QB I have some ocean front property in Cabot for sale.  Additionally, guess you missed the square peg, round hole bit. Those offenses still operated as though they had a mobile QB. 
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Re: Conjecture
« Reply #75 on: February 02, 2018, 10:32:27 am »

My question is what is the definition of "mobile QB"?
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Re: Conjecture
« Reply #76 on: February 02, 2018, 10:38:31 am »

I acknowledged you still need good players. Kyle Allen couldn't start at Houston; if you think Todd was a good QB I have some ocean front property in Cabot for sale.  Additionally, guess you missed the square peg, round hole bit. Those offenses still operated as though they had a mobile QB.

Good players are a given.  A mobile QB that is a true dual threat is another.  From the minute Saban saw how difficult it is to defend a good one, he showed the highest form of flattery and started recruiting them.  He's not running McElroy's out there anymore if you'll notice.  He realizes that the "x factor" is that with a constant threat to run, it all but eliminates a player on defense by needing a LB to spy at all times, so you're trying to defend with less players than you otherwise need to. 

We're going to see if it works on the SEC.  Maybe CK is mobile enough to pose enough threat to create problems for defenses...he very well may be, because like Cam...he's hard to bring down.  Obviously nowhere near the athleticism, but Tebow wasn't exactly fleet of foot either. 

So....to me, there's hope that we can actually have enough of a dual threat to benefit from the added threat.  I don't think we're talking about a Ryan Mallet situation with who we have on campus. 

Do we have a Baker Mayfield...nope.  So, we're going to see how it plays out. 
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Re: Conjecture
« Reply #77 on: February 02, 2018, 10:43:52 am »

My question is what is the definition of "mobile QB"?

You bring up a good point.  Tebow was more of a bullish runner...like a Fullback, straight ahead, tought to bring down, could take hits.  Why couldn't Cole Kelley be smiliar?  I see no reason that he can't. 

My definition of a true dual threat QB is one that can run almost on par with a running back.  Fast enough to make ground on everyone but the fastest LB's, and the safeties and corners.  AND...they have to be able to take hits like a runner, not slide every time. 

It's what every coach wants right?  Saban...check.  Malzahn...check.  Swinney...check.  We'll see if we have one on campus who just needs to be let loose, or if Morris will have to bring one in. 
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steveaustin69

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Re: Conjecture
« Reply #78 on: February 02, 2018, 10:53:07 am »

Good players are a given.  A mobile QB that is a true dual threat is another.  From the minute Saban saw how difficult it is to defend a good one, he showed the highest form of flattery and started recruiting them.  He's not running McElroy's out there anymore if you'll notice.  He realizes that the "x factor" is that with a constant threat to run, it all but eliminates a player on defense by needing a LB to spy at all times, so you're trying to defend with less players than you otherwise need to. 

We're going to see if it works on the SEC.  Maybe CK is mobile enough to pose enough threat to create problems for defenses...he very well may be, because like Cam...he's hard to bring down.  Obviously nowhere near the athleticism, but Tebow wasn't exactly fleet of foot either. 

So....to me, there's hope that we can actually have enough of a dual threat to benefit from the added threat.  I don't think we're talking about a Ryan Mallet situation with who we have on campus. 

Do we have a Baker Mayfield...nope.  So, we're going to see how it plays out.

Agree with everything here. Being mobile is obviously beneficial, was never saying it wasn't.

As I've pointed out the few isolated spread non mobile qb examples we have in the SEC were a combo of bad players and bad coaching not adapting to the style of player.  By the way, the full season Todd started, he had a pretty damn good year.  Having trouble finding total PPG allowed by their defense, but off touchdowns alone they were giving up 24 PPG, and an average of 156 rushing YPG. Their O wasn't the reason they finished with 8 wins.

Spread has worked with mobile and non-mobile QBs. I have no reason to believe if the offense is tailored to a non-mobile quarterback it can't work in the SEC. As you said we will see, because we sure as hell don't have the next Mayfield or Newton up on the hill right now.
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urkillnmesmalls

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Re: Conjecture
« Reply #79 on: February 02, 2018, 11:06:03 am »

Agree with everything here. Being mobile is obviously beneficial, was never saying it wasn't.

As I've pointed out the few isolated spread non mobile qb examples we have in the SEC were a combo of bad players and bad coaching not adapting to the style of player.  By the way, the full season Todd started, he had a pretty damn good year.  Having trouble finding total PPG allowed by their defense, but off touchdowns alone they were giving up 24 PPG, and an average of 156 rushing YPG. Their O wasn't the reason they finished with 8 wins.

Spread has worked with mobile and non-mobile QBs. I have no reason to believe if the offense is tailored to a non-mobile quarterback it can't work in the SEC. As you said we will see, because we sure as hell don't have the next Mayfield or Newton up on the hill right now.

And again....I have reason to believe that if none of our QB's can truly serve as a threat to run, it's going to be a long row to hoe, because history shows that the spread doesn't work in the SEC without a dual threat QB.  We're going to see....but I think it's a lot of concern over nothing, because I think Cole Kelley can play that role better than some believe he can.  Arm tackles aren't bringing that guy down, and he's going to truck people if he gets up to speed.  I'm not worried about that aspect NEARLY as much as I am about our ability to prove we can block someone.  Last year was abysmal, and it won't matter if we have Mayfield back there if we don't block anyone! 

Oh and defense...there's my primary concern.  Talk about potential for a round hole and square peg.  Chavis's defenses seem to work well when he has exceptional talent that can defend on the back side well, with guys able to be put on an island...ala LSU with high draft pick after high draft pick.  Less than that...and it almost ends up being a half ass version of pressure and back side coverage....stuck in no-man's land.  I'm VERY interested to see if we do well, or if we have guys with slumped shoulders walking around shaking their heads thinking..."What just happened?" as we give up big play after big play. 
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racinghog

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Re: Conjecture
« Reply #80 on: February 02, 2018, 11:30:48 am »

You bring up a good point.  Tebow was more of a bullish runner...like a Fullback, straight ahead, tought to bring down, could take hits.  Why couldn't Cole Kelley be smiliar?  I see no reason that he can't. 

My definition of a true dual threat QB is one that can run almost on par with a running back.  Fast enough to make ground on everyone but the fastest LB's, and the safeties and corners.  AND...they have to be able to take hits like a runner, not slide every time. 

It's what every coach wants right?  Saban...check.  Malzahn...check.  Swinney...check.  We'll see if we have one on campus who just needs to be let loose, or if Morris will have to bring one in. 
So then one that can just run is more effective than one than can just throw?
« Last Edit: February 02, 2018, 11:54:56 am by racinghog »
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Re: Conjecture
« Reply #81 on: February 02, 2018, 01:31:34 pm »

The question here is not whether a spread offense can work without a dual threat QB. It is about how effective it can be in the SEC, you know, the conference we play in...

Anyone who thinks Malzahn didn't change his offense for Chris Todd, check out his offenses numbers at Tulsa. Did you not notice the difference between the Malzahn/Todd offense and the Malzahn/Newton offense or the Malzahn/Stidham offense?

Yes, I think we all can agree that there is not a Cam Newton or Vick type QB on campus right now. What I am saying is "conjecture" the name of this thread, on what type of QB we will have in the future BEYOND 2018 as Morris puts his stamp on this program.

In 2018, one of the current QBs on the roster will start. Morris will tweak his offense to suit the talents of whomever is the guy. Hopefully, Kelley or whichever QB starts is effective enough to win more games than we lose. I think that is quite possible given the slightly easier schedule.

I just do not believe that these type of QBs will be the model for a Morris QB recruit going forward unless Hyatt is more of a dual threat. I haven't seen him play, so I don't know.

I have seen Noland and he is very capable of running Morris' offense, it's a lot like the one at Greenwood. I don't think expecting a true freshman at QB in the SEC to excel without Alabama personnel, which we don't have, surrounding him is a good idea..

My conjecture has more to do with 2019 and beyond. I believe that a dual threat QB running a spread offense is the ideal to run a spread to its' full potential. Not that it can't be run at all with a less mobile QB. Nothing anyone on here says is going to change that opinion..
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Re: Conjecture
« Reply #82 on: February 02, 2018, 02:59:39 pm »

My question is what is the definition of "mobile QB"?
I think Cole Kelley looked pretty mobile, and also very stoic. That's a killer combo.
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Re: Conjecture
« Reply #83 on: February 02, 2018, 03:13:59 pm »

Cole Kelley made some plays last year with his feet, he is big frame not afraid to lower a shoulder and take a hit. Probably not what many would consider a dual threat Quaterback, but he is mobile enough to keep a defense honest. Let's see if Coach Craddock can advance Cole's play to next level.
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Re: Conjecture
« Reply #84 on: February 02, 2018, 06:24:56 pm »

The question here is not whether a spread offense can work without a dual threat QB. It is about how effective it can be in the SEC, you know, the conference we play in...

Anyone who thinks Malzahn didn't change his offense for Chris Todd, check out his offenses numbers at Tulsa. Did you not notice the difference between the Malzahn/Todd offense and the Malzahn/Newton offense or the Malzahn/Stidham offense?

Yes, I think we all can agree that there is not a Cam Newton or Vick type QB on campus right now. What I am saying is "conjecture" the name of this thread, on what type of QB we will have in the future BEYOND 2018 as Morris puts his stamp on this program.

In 2018, one of the current QBs on the roster will start. Morris will tweak his offense to suit the talents of whomever is the guy. Hopefully, Kelley or whichever QB starts is effective enough to win more games than we lose. I think that is quite possible given the slightly easier schedule.

I just do not believe that these type of QBs will be the model for a Morris QB recruit going forward unless Hyatt is more of a dual threat. I haven't seen him play, so I don't know.

I have seen Noland and he is very capable of running Morris' offense, it's a lot like the one at Greenwood. I don't think expecting a true freshman at QB in the SEC to excel without Alabama personnel, which we don't have, surrounding him is a good idea..

My conjecture has more to do with 2019 and beyond. I believe that a dual threat QB running a spread offense is the ideal to run a spread to its' full potential. Not that it can't be run at all with a less mobile QB. Nothing anyone on here says is going to change that opinion..

Everyone has their opinion and few if any of us, are qualified to evaluate or judge whether a QB on this team will be successful in a system that we haven't even seen yet, that will most likely be "tweaked" a bit to put the eventual starter (and the entire offense as a result) in the best position to have success. There has to be a starting point with who you have on campus that most closely demonstrates their ability to best execute the Morris scheme.

Because of the difference in what was required of QB's in the last 5 seasons, I would suggest that we can "project" until the cows come home but all of us may be surprised at the end of Spring Practice, or not. We simply don't know who it is going to be but I feel assured that whomever it will be, that it will be because of their ability to execute the offense at the highest level consistently. At this point, I have no idea who that will be.

As for the discussion about a DT QB, I found this and it perhaps does a good job of defining what a DT QB who plays at the highest levels of college footall, should look like.

Must be polished. Pro-Style QBs or Passing Spread QBs should be able to throw the Deep Out, Comeback, Dig, and Seam Route with no loft. Should be able to throw ball through goalpost from opposite 40 yard line. Proficient ability to throw receivers open and execute the back shoulder throw.

Dual-Threat QBs may be raw as passers but should show as the best pure athlete on the field in every game and possess elite size/speed combinations. Has to have demonstrated QB ability multiple years at an All-State level or High All Area/District at a minimum. Should have recognition from national recruiting media and log performances on the camp and combine circuit.


https://www.gobigrecruiting.com/recruiting101/football/positional_guidelines/quarterback

The question is, who do we currently have on the roster that exhibits these traits? If none, then expect an approach that is perhaps not typical of the offense that Morris would prefer to run, but one that maximizes our chances with who we have at this time.
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urkillnmesmalls

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Re: Conjecture
« Reply #85 on: February 02, 2018, 06:57:06 pm »

So then one that can just run is more effective than one than can just throw?

No, I didn't say that.  But the question was...how do you define a mobile QB?  Not sure why you steered it toward passing, but the assumption is that they can pass.  If they can't do that, then they're just a RB.  Why not bring in an extra blocker and run wildcat at that point? 

To me...mobile means they can scramble when needed, and they have some ability to run if the defense isn't honest. A true dual threat can run almost on par with a RB.  A "drop back" QB is a Ryan Mallet.  Cole Kelley is not a true dual threat, by my definition.  BUT...he may be a good enough runner to keep teams honest if we show it some, and make then honor it.  He's not going to run the read option and strike fear into anyone, but if he can basically fall forward for 4 yards like Cam and Tebow used to always seem to be able to do...then that's probably enough for Morris's offense. 

I would call Kelley a mobile QB.  But...I think that's enough.  If it was Mallett....probably not so much.  Maybe that clarifies it better. 
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urkillnmesmalls

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Re: Conjecture
« Reply #86 on: February 02, 2018, 07:03:28 pm »

Cole Kelley made some plays last year with his feet, he is big frame not afraid to lower a shoulder and take a hit. Probably not what many would consider a dual threat Quaterback, but he is mobile enough to keep a defense honest. Let's see if Coach Craddock can advance Cole's play to next level.

Nailed it....I HOPE.   ;D   Tebow wasn't fleet of foot, but I think most would say he was a dual threat QB, because he was a bull and hard to bring down.  Fast enough to be effective, but wasn't going to run past secondaries like Michael Vick. 

Once Cole was the primary QB last year, BB didn't run him much.  Not sure why.  Before that, he was in on every short yardage play, and was very effective with it.  I have no reason to believe he can't at least be a threat to run at times on a read option, but I don't think he'll command the same respect that a Nick Marshall or others did, or do.  I'm hoping for juuust enough to keep 'em honest.   ;)

I'm not sure he'll even be the starter...who knows?  But...he's got talent, and probably more than that, he's got moxy and poise.  He's gritty.  That goes a long way at the QB position, and teams will rally around guys like that. 
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Re: Conjecture
« Reply #87 on: February 02, 2018, 07:40:30 pm »



I'm not sure he'll even be the starter...who knows?  But...he's got talent, and probably more than that, he's got moxy and poise.  He's gritty.  That goes a long way at the QB position, and teams will rally around guys like that. 


One of my all time favorite "gritty" quarterbacks is Joe Kapp.  Here he is at age 74 at a ceremony with long time rival Andelo Mosca from their Canadian Football League days.  Hasn't lost his grit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrkEROiQsa8
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Re: Conjecture
« Reply #88 on: February 02, 2018, 08:51:21 pm »

No, I didn't say that.  But the question was...how do you define a mobile QB?  Not sure why you steered it toward passing, but the assumption is that they can pass.  If they can't do that, then they're just a RB.  Why not bring in an extra blocker and run wildcat at that point? 

To me...mobile means they can scramble when needed, and they have some ability to run if the defense isn't honest. A true dual threat can run almost on par with a RB.  A "drop back" QB is a Ryan Mallet.  Cole Kelley is not a true dual threat, by my definition.  BUT...he may be a good enough runner to keep teams honest if we show it some, and make then honor it.  He's not going to run the read option and strike fear into anyone, but if he can basically fall forward for 4 yards like Cam and Tebow used to always seem to be able to do...then that's probably enough for Morris's offense. 

I would call Kelley a mobile QB.  But...I think that's enough.  If it was Mallett....probably not so much.  Maybe that clarifies it better. 
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