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Author Topic: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?  (Read 1884 times)

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austin.hogfan

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Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« on: November 06, 2017, 04:54:44 pm »

I say no.  And itís Longís problem to know the answer to who he can actually get.  What say you and why?
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phadedhawg

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2017, 05:01:05 pm »

Not in every situation but in this one....certainly. 

If Bert runs out of that tunnel next year, Long will be ran out of town.  So in this case, anyone will be better than what we have. 
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Arthur pigby sellers.

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2017, 05:03:19 pm »

Isnít his record in the SEC 11-29?   Those are historically low winning percentages for an Arkansas coach.  Itís almost impossible to do worse.
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atom hog

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2017, 05:04:54 pm »

Give Bert and this staff a year six, and you'll wish to have this year's performance.
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31to6

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2017, 05:06:16 pm »

I say no.  And itís Longís problem to know the answer to who he can actually get.  What say you and why?
Yes. Same as any business.

Losing and complacency are contagious.

You have to burn them out.
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phadedhawg

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2017, 05:08:58 pm »

There's no way an SEC team almost loses to Coastal Carolina unless the team is ready to lay down.  There's no coming back from that for a coach.
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navyhog24

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2017, 05:10:14 pm »

Why are some of you so scared to let Butters go? Itís like you all have no balls whatsoever. Any employee at any other business would have gotten fired a lot sooner for not performing at their level of their pay, but we have Captain Integrity as our Athletic Director. So, Bert gets to keep his job longer than he should.
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Inhogswetrust

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2017, 05:12:16 pm »

I say no.  And itís Longís problem to know the answer to who he can actually get.  What say you and why?

Some times I've had to fire people not knowing IF any replacement would be an upgrade. You ALWAYS take a chance when firing and not having a replacement ready. Even if you do have a replacement ready you STILL don't know for certain they will work out either. Half the time you never know who you can ACTUALLY get unless you are planning to promote from within or already have hired someone.
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HawgWild

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2017, 05:21:12 pm »

Releasing a coach after 5 years with a losing record says you donít accept mediocrity. Keeping one around says you do.
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RyanMallettsEgo

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2017, 05:28:44 pm »

They just brought this up on Finebaum and they made some good points.

I'm ready for Bret to go as anyone else but depending on what other jobs open up and what coaches are left, we could be forced to settle for same or even worse for several more years.
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The Hawg Marshal

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2017, 05:30:45 pm »

They just brought this up on Finebaum and they made some good points.

I'm ready for Bret to go as anyone else but depending on what other jobs open up and what coaches are left, we could be forced to settle for same or even worse for several more years.
Just because talking heads say that, doesn't make it so. We can and will do better.
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31to6

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2017, 05:31:01 pm »

They just brought this up on Finebaum and they made some good points.

I'm ready for Bret to go as anyone else but depending on what other jobs open up and what coaches are left, we could be forced to settle for same or even worse for several more years.
I think that is a red herring.

For people who say "there is no guarantee" here is the one thing that can be guaranteed: Next year the pool of candidates might be better or worse, but what we can *guarantee* is that we will have had to live with a bad coach and his bad staff for another season.
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farmhawg

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2017, 05:31:24 pm »

Just when you thought the question couldnít be asked in a new post.....geez people read a little more.
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wachhog

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2017, 05:32:37 pm »

I say yes. To pay a man over $4 million a year to not only accomplish nothing but to actually do your program harm is insulting to fans, most of whom wonít earn as much as Arkansas has paid him in a lifetime. It is a matter of being played. Arkansas has been played. And as the shrub said, ďFool me once...Ē
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ballz2thewall

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2017, 05:33:49 pm »

the odds are very short on finding an upgrade with any decent effort.

the odds are even shorter that cbb has lost the team and fanbase. the fanbase will respond to what's on the field but the team is a different animal.

and it's a visual thing as well as numbers. he just doesn't know what he's doing. you can see it in him on the sidelines and interpolate, given his delegation to assistants.

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RyanMallettsEgo

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2017, 05:36:35 pm »

Just because talking heads say that, doesn't make it so. We can and will do better.

And just because you say this on a message board doesn't make it so.

I think that is a red herring.

For people who say "there is no guarantee" here is the one thing that can be guaranteed: Next year the pool of candidates might be better or worse, but what we can *guarantee* is that we will have had to live with a bad coach and his bad staff for another season.

It could definitely be better or worse, I agree. That's the crapshoot of it all. As I said I'm ready for him to go, but depending on the dominoes, it could be interesting.
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phadedhawg

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2017, 05:39:06 pm »

We might not a better coach but I promise we can find a cheaper coach, one that can win 6 games without breaking the bank. 

If nothing else, fire him as a future cost saving measure.
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wachhog

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2017, 05:39:18 pm »

Just because talking heads say that, doesn't make it so. We can and will do better.
And if we canít, we at least  will be making someone else rich. No doubt a three-time Rose Bowl coachís his lack of success has made it much more difficult for us to hire a quality coach and recruit quality players no mater who the coach is. Coming off Petrinoís success, it seems it would have been much easier.  Alas...

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ballz2thewall

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2017, 05:41:13 pm »

We might not a better coach but I promise we can find a cheaper coach, one that can win 6 games without breaking the bank. 

If nothing else, fire him as a future cost saving measure.

and if the next one underperforms, odds are he'll have some sort of interaction with the team on the sidelines. at least butch jones is passionate during gametime.
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wachhog

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2017, 05:44:00 pm »

Not in every situation but in this one....certainly. 

If Bert runs out of that tunnel next year, Long will be ran out of town.  So in this case, anyone will be better than what we have. 
Running Ling out of town might be the one reason to keep him.
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ipigsooie

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2017, 05:44:07 pm »

The thing that people arent looking at with all of the possible openings is all of the possible available coaches. Sometimes guys just dont work out. If, for some reason, we werent able to hire a top choice like Norvell or Campbell,  etc, there will be so many guys out there that would be a better hire than sticking with CBB.  Although not my top choices,  youd have to consider sumlin (excellent recruiter in texas), gus (like him or hate him he isnt a bad coach), along with all of the deserving coordinators and up and coming coaches out there. As long as we start the process sooner than later, its not like we are going to get stuck in limbo with nobody to take the job (or unless we completely bungle the situation ala lsu last year).
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Hog-Corleone

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2017, 05:44:24 pm »

Iíd fire this coach, a downgrade from here is impossible
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The Hawg Marshal

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2017, 05:46:20 pm »

And just because you say this on a message board doesn't make it so.

It could definitely be better or worse, I agree. That's the crapshoot of it all. As I said I'm ready for him to go, but depending on the dominoes, it could be interesting.
Maybe not but I like the odds.
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Hogwild

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2017, 05:47:22 pm »

They just brought this up on Finebaum and they made some good points.

I'm ready for Bret to go as anyone else but depending on what other jobs open up and what coaches are left, we could be forced to settle for same or even worse for several more years.

Is it at all likely we could be worse off?  Year 5, and only 11 conference wins.  Our recruiting class is ranked in the 60s, arguably we aren't even the best team in the state. How much worse could it get.
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grassroothog

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2017, 05:54:42 pm »

I say no.  And itís Longís problem to know the answer to who he can actually get.  What say you and why?
Would Long not seek out expert advice on choosing a new coach? With good consultation I dont see how we could not improve.
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urkillnmesmalls

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2017, 05:56:40 pm »

We need a change.  However, I don't know how you can make the argument that he's completely lost the team when everything that seemingly could go wrong in that game did, and yet the kids did everything they could to win the game at the end.  They had every reason to mail it in several times.  Ill prepared...obviously.  But downtrodden and resigned...I don't see that.   

I just don't think they are coached very well, and whatever we're doing for player development is failing...miserably.  There's no other way to explain what's going on in year 5 when we don't have an upper classmen laden team. 

I thought we were going to lose, and I didn't think CBB would survive the weekend.  I thought Enos would likely be promoted as interim, and then the search would start.  I'm not sure if it's better to have CBB coach out the season and then see who all is available and interested, or if it's better to make it known now that we have an opening so coaches might position for the UA job, and we get a little better pick by getting the jump on a few teams by coaches showing interest. 

Anyone besides me have this mental image of Jeff Long sitting at his desk with his feet up...reading letters right about now?   ;D
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rude1

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2017, 06:07:31 pm »

Firing are done based on individual job performance, you don't keep an employee who is doing a bad job around because you don't know who you can replace him with. He is doing a bad job and doesn't show that he is capable of doing a good job, you move him out for the long term good of the company.
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sickboy

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2017, 06:11:40 pm »

Firing are done based on individual job performance, you don't keep an employee who is doing a bad job around because you don't know who you can replace him with. He is doing a bad job and doesn't show that he is capable of doing a good job, you move him out for the long term good of the company.

College football isn't the corporate ladder structure. If you're running a banana stand, sure. But college football has seasonal benchmarks that make timing the firing/hiring process more complicated than just getting rid of a failing coach and hiring a new one.
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East TN HAWG

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2017, 06:33:47 pm »

I know  few years back, Aubbie courted BP before they had an vacancy.  That blew up in their face.  You almost have to fire and then hire.  There is risk, but when your behind to Costal in the 4th it is worth the risk.
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HiggiePiggy

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2017, 06:34:50 pm »

I say no.  And itís Longís problem to know the answer to who he can actually get.  What say you and why?

When a coach is pretty much costing your program money. Then yes you bring in someone new even if you arenít sure if they are an upgrade.  You get fans thinking that you are also fed up with the way the program is and are working on getting it changed.

Continuing to keep a person when they are bringing the program down each year will just kill a program and make it even longer for fans to come back. 

Show that you care about the performance on the field and the fans will be back and on your side. 
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The Hawg Marshal

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2017, 06:39:06 pm »

I know  few years back, Aubbie courted BP before they had an vacancy.  That blew up in their face.  You almost have to fire and then hire.  There is risk, but when your behind to Costal in the 4th it is worth the risk.
That blew up in their face because they met directly with Bobby. Now it's all done through intermediaries to avoid such blow ups.
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EastexHawg

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2017, 06:40:01 pm »

Just because talking heads say that, doesn't make it so. We can and will do better.

Right.  Alabama and Auburn fans would burn down the campus if the administration decided to keep a coach who is 11-26 and almost loses to Coastal Carolina, but since we are poor little Arkiesaw we should be okay with that as long as we occasionally get to go to a Weed Whacker Bowl.
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TrueBlue

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2017, 06:43:15 pm »

Uhhhh. We are last this year in our division and we have been last three of the five years Bert has been here.

How do we not do better?
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East Clintwood

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2017, 06:43:42 pm »

Yes, you absolutely must fire him as soon as possible.  He is doing damage to the program that will take a long time to overcome.  Allowing him to continue to do that is just unconscionable.

And you're never sure that you're upgrading when changing coaches.  There's always a risk that the new guy won't work out either.

But you have to  try.  You can't just continue on with the crapshow that we have now.
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Hogwild

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2017, 06:44:57 pm »

College football isn't the corporate ladder structure. If you're running a banana stand, sure. But college football has seasonal benchmarks that make timing the firing/hiring process more complicated than just getting rid of a failing coach and hiring a new one.

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swineology

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2017, 06:45:43 pm »

Some times I've had to fire people not knowing IF any replacement would be an upgrade. You ALWAYS take a chance when firing and not having a replacement ready. Even if you do have a replacement ready you STILL don't know for certain they will work out either. Half the time you never know who you can ACTUALLY get unless you are planning to promote from within or already have hired someone.





I've fired employees also, none that made 4 mill.
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razorbackred1

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2017, 06:46:36 pm »

I say no.  And itís Longís problem to know the answer to who he can actually get.  What say you and why?

It's no different than a regular job, you set goals, and standards for you and your program, if you meets or surpass those you earn another year if you don't it's time to move on! How embarrassed would you be if you had to stand before your peers, players, and fans and shout .... in year 5 this is MY program, I built it, I would be mortified! You never know if the next hire is going to be better, and even though I thought Bert was a good hire, it's evident he was not, and unless he pulls a rabbit out of the hat 2018 will be worse than this year.
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austin.hogfan

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2017, 06:55:25 pm »

Thanks for the civil responses.  The follow on is itís Jeffís job to attract better talent as a coach.  So if he has done that then he keeps his job, and if he hasnít been able to do so, then he is the one that has to worry...
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Razoryak

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #38 on: November 06, 2017, 06:58:52 pm »

The problem with this statement is you NEVER know if you can upgrade until you give it a shot ... Sabon, Swinney, Meyer were nobodies until they were somebody. Hire a young gun and pray he's not another Butch Jones, that is our best and only shot at bringing excitement back to the program.
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MountieDawg

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #39 on: November 06, 2017, 07:25:48 pm »

I say no.  And itís Longís problem to know the answer to who he can actually get.  What say you and why?

Would you keep milk that has been spoiled for 3 weeks if you have not had time to go to the grocery store???
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ErieHog

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #40 on: November 06, 2017, 07:27:49 pm »

Isnít his record in the SEC 11-29?   Those are historically low winning percentages for an Arkansas coach.  Itís almost impossible to do worse.


How many people said this year's defense couldn't possibly be worse than last year's, and that the switch to the 3-4 would be seamless?

Yes, it can get *much* worse.  But it also can get much better.    A coaching change is placing your bet, and spinning that wheel.
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Broadway Rob

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #41 on: November 06, 2017, 07:45:18 pm »

They just brought this up on Finebaum and they made some good points.

I'm ready for Bret to go as anyone else but depending on what other jobs open up and what coaches are left, we could be forced to settle for same or even worse for several more years.

Uhhh, no.  There is no shortages of good coaches at smaller schools looking to step up.  There's no shortages of coordinators who have paid their dues and may be ready for the jump. 

I don't care if I have ever even heard the guys name, any up and coming coach would be better.  It would give the fanbase something to rally around, where right now, we have nothing. 
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hawgon

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #42 on: November 06, 2017, 07:47:21 pm »

Worst comes to worst, we can go down to Greenland high school and hire whoever theyíve got coaching this year.  It wonít be a homerun, but it will be an upgrade.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2017, 08:00:07 pm by hawgon »
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IAMHogholio

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #43 on: November 06, 2017, 07:59:18 pm »

No that would be reckless.   At this point however itís hard to support the on field product.   Regardless of how we finish this season we were not prepared to match the competition for the first half of the season. 

There is a reason his teams started collapsing late last season.   We donít go that bad that fast without something in the program leading to these performances.   

Due to the lack of knowledge behind the Pig Iron Curtain we simply donít know if Oz has figured out the wizard is just a special effects man or whatever other reason is the cause. 

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007 License To Squeal

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #44 on: November 06, 2017, 08:16:03 pm »

Can the replacement fare worse than Bellyma?  Not likely......Fire him after the Missouri game....
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Locutus_of_Boar

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #45 on: November 06, 2017, 08:20:56 pm »

I say no.  And itís Longís problem to know the answer to who he can actually get.  What say you and why?

Arkansas has been in the football business for one hundred and twenty four years.

In all that time Arkansas has managed to hire a new "permanent" coach on average every 4.3 years. 

It's been five years since the last time Arkansas hired a coach so the program is exactly on schedule.

In all program history only three coaches lasted more than seven years and two of the three are generally considered failures.

All those AD's:  Futrall, Barnhill, Broyles, and Long in each case knew who was available but often did not know for sure who they had got till fouryears later.

We have seen all the current coach has got.

If Jeff Long put all the names of available D-1 coaches with a winning record into a hat and drew out a random name the odds will be overwhelming that random coach will outperform the one who is here now.

If he doesn't Arkansas will just hire the random pick's replacement a year or two early.

The way it works out Arkansas should just offer a fixed five year deal no cut deal with no modifications or extensions except for making another five year extension at the end of the first five years.  Any coach who makes it to ten years with the fan base still happy should be given a lifetime contract.  Do this and there would be little change in the duration of coaching tenures but the coaching debates would be cut way down.

Anyway this is all after the fact.   The decision for 2018 has already been made.
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bigpigpimpin

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #46 on: November 06, 2017, 08:22:33 pm »

OP, are you implying that we can't upgrade from this debacle? If so that's rediculous.
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woodrow hog call

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #47 on: November 06, 2017, 08:27:27 pm »

You absolutely MUST fire him, no more of a choice than firing BP.

You have certain criteria and standards that are not being met. BP failed a different set of standards, but the answer is the same for both, you cannot continue to represent this program. Reason; failure to meet expectations.
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hoglady

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #48 on: November 06, 2017, 08:31:06 pm »

I say no.  And it’s Long’s problem to know the answer to who he can actually get.  What say you and why?

Bielema is the worst coach in the SEC - and that's a fact proven by his record.
How do you get worse than that???
When you've reached rock bottom - you can only go up.
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HardCore

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Re: Would you fire a coach without knowing you can actually upgrade?
« Reply #49 on: November 06, 2017, 08:33:34 pm »

We can easily fire an Athletic Director without knowing we can actually upgrade
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