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Author Topic: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either  (Read 2443 times)

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hogsanity

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Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« on: November 06, 2017, 08:46:39 am »

While the question is being asked is Arkansas a football school, one really has to ask, is Arkansas a football state? I say the answer to that is no. While we enjoy football, as a state we are not very good at playing it. Our teams, when compared to similar teams in other states, are small and slow. We enjoy watching football, many towns live and die with their local high school team, and from time to time the state produces an excellent player, but it is not a football state because the football product for the most part is not very good.

But I will go even further. Arkansas is not a very athletic state, period. While basketball is very good in a couple areas ( LR being one ) most of the basketball in Ar suffers from the same problems as does football, small and slow.

If anything, Arkansas is a baseball state, that is a sport where size and speed are not as big of factor, and I do not think it is a coincidence that the UofA has been more successful in baseball that any other sport over the last 15-20 years ( maybe track, but even it had a lull after John M left ).

Now, the people WANT this to be a football state and for the UofA to be a football school because that is where they see the glory, the recognition. Football is easier for fans to get involved with too with bigger venues, fewer games, usually on a Sat so it is easier to attend, you can tailgate much easier for football than other sports too.

Oddly though, football is also the hardest sport for a university to be truly good in. Lose 1 game and you are likely out of the NC picture, 2 and you are probably almost out of NYD6 bowls contention. 3 of more losses, and you start wondering what middle level bowl you are playing in at 3pm someday between Christmas and NY eve.
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razorsharp94

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2017, 08:50:21 am »

This map of NFL players per capita would say this is not accurate.

http://i.imgur.com/TnYdL5U.jpg

I'm sure there is a map for basketball that is the same. 
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Lady Razorback

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2017, 08:53:02 am »

While the question is being asked is Arkansas a football school, one really has to ask, is Arkansas a football state? I say the answer to that is no. While we enjoy football, as a state we are not very good at playing it. Our teams, when compared to similar teams in other states, are small and slow. We enjoy watching football, many towns live and die with their local high school team, and from time to time the state produces an excellent player, but it is not a football state because the football product for the most part is not very good.

But I will go even further. Arkansas is not a very athletic state, period. While basketball is very good in a couple areas ( LR being one ) most of the basketball in Ar suffers from the same problems as does football, small and slow.

If anything, Arkansas is a baseball state, that is a sport where size and speed are not as big of factor, and I do not think it is a coincidence that the UofA has been more successful in baseball that any other sport over the last 15-20 years ( maybe track, but even it had a lull after John M left ).

Now, the people WANT this to be a football state and for the UofA to be a football school because that is where they see the glory, the recognition. Football is easier for fans to get involved with too with bigger venues, fewer games, usually on a Sat so it is easier to attend, you can tailgate much easier for football than other sports too.

Oddly though, football is also the hardest sport for a university to be truly good in. Lose 1 game and you are likely out of the NC picture, 2 and you are probably almost out of NYD6 bowls contention. 3 of more losses, and you start wondering what middle level bowl you are playing in at 3pm someday between Christmas and NY eve.

I don't even understand how you include "hog" in your "name".  You are so negative about Razorback athletics.  If it is as dismal as you say, wouldn't you be better served choosing another team to cheer for that wouldn't cause you so much angst. 
Just an observation. 
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NuttinItUp

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2017, 08:56:13 am »

Petrino had us playing well.

Just takes the right coach.
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Lady Razorback

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2017, 09:02:31 am »

Petrino had us playing well.

Just takes the right coach.

This^^^^

And basketball, we did have quite a successful basketball program during Richardson and Sutton days.  We were known during that period as such.  We have had turmoil since that period of time, but I see signs of progress.  It isn't as dismal as you might outline.  Look at the players that we have in NBA currently and in our history.  Some now coaching in the NBA. 

Track and field....enough said. 

Baseball...Having cousin in the baseball program in the past, I have long cheered for the Baseball Hogs.  We have an even better reputation with DVH. 

Find some things to make you happy. 

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sevenof400

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2017, 09:03:14 am »

This map of NFL players per capita would say this is not accurate.

http://i.imgur.com/TnYdL5U.jpg

I'm sure there is a map for basketball that is the same.

You might want to read that map a bit closer - the dots represent players per 100K of pop.  Arkansas does NOT have that large of a population so a few players who make it to the NFL can result in a large(r) bubble.  That does NOT mean there are a lot of players here though nor does it mean they attended the Univ of Arkansas. 
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jst01

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2017, 09:10:56 am »

This is just an extreme generalization.  Plenty of athletes are born and raised in this state. Its a small state so obviously there are less!! Nobody thinks AR will have success based only on AR athletes, that's a given.  Hogsanity likes to pick out one theme for the year, and plant his foot in the ground and make sure every retort and reply he gives for the year has ties to his theme and his opinion.  This years theme is "Hogs have never recruited well enough and never will based on the AVERAGE wins per season since joining the SEC and no matter who coaches here or the coaches system, Hogs shouldn't expect to ever exceed the past averages". 
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hogsanity

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2017, 09:17:51 am »

I don't even understand how you include "hog" in your "name".  You are so negative about Razorback athletics.  If it is as dismal as you say, wouldn't you be better served choosing another team to cheer for that wouldn't cause you so much angst. 
Just an observation. 

I cheer for the Hogs just like I have as long as I can remember, but cheering for a team does not mean turning a blind eye to the problems they face. And no team causes me any angst.

This years theme is "Hogs have never recruited well enough and never will


That's pretty much every season.
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bphi11ips

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2017, 09:28:41 am »

Unadulterated BS.

We understand that you prefer baseball.  The truth is that baseball has become the Great White Hope.  As a result, middle-class parents all over the country, not just in Arkansas, are hiring private trainers for their children and placing them on "travel teams" by the age of 5.  That has been good for the sport at the college and major league levels.  It has been terrible for the sport at the youth level.  It will ultimately not be good for the sport as generations like ours who remember baseball as the egalitarian game it once was disappear. 

I have been watching high school football almost as long as I have been watching college football.  I played in Little Rock in the 70s when it was very competitive there.  For the last 20 years I've watched high school football in middle Tennessee where 4 and 5 star players are common.  I went to the Catholic High-North Little Rock game a few weeks ago.  Maybe the teams you ref in the boonies don't have a lot of talent.  There was a lot of talent on the field for NLR.  NLR would do well at the 6A level in Tennessee.  They would be a Top 10 team statewide. 

I haven't seen high school football in NWA since I went to school in Fayetteville, but my understanding here and from talking to parents at the Catholic game is that NWA has very strong teams.  I also understand that private schools in Little Rock have strong programs.  Quite a bit of talent has come out of PA, Little Rock Christian, etc., over the years.

Does Little Rock have a football problem?  Apparently so, one that is directly related to its overall public school problem.  Does Arkansas have a competitive problem in rural areas due to the size of small school districts?  Maybe so.  But those small school districts produce pretty good football players occasionally.  It is what it is and that is not going to change as long as Arkansas's rural population stays as it is now.

Arkansas not a football state?  Uh huh.     
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hogsanity

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2017, 09:42:02 am »

Unadulterated BS.

We understand that you prefer baseball.  The truth is that baseball has become the Great White Hope.  As a result, middle-class parents all over the country, not just in Arkansas, are hiring private trainers for their children and placing them on "travel teams" by the age of 5.  That has been good for the sport at the college and major league levels.  It has been terrible for the sport at the youth level.  It will ultimately not be good for the sport as generations like ours who remember baseball as the egalitarian game it once was disappear. 

I have been watching high school football almost as long as I have been watching college football.  I played in Little Rock in the 70s when it was very competitive there.  For the last 20 years I've watched high school football in middle Tennessee where 4 and 5 star players are common.  I went to the Catholic High-North Little Rock game a few weeks ago.  Maybe the teams you ref in the boonies don't have a lot of talent.  There was a lot of talent on the field for NLR.  NLR would do well at the 6A level in Tennessee.  They would be a Top 10 team statewide. 

I haven't seen high school football in NWA since I went to school in Fayetteville, but my understanding here and from talking to parents at the Catholic game is that NWA has very strong teams.  I also understand that private schools in Little Rock have strong programs.  Quite a bit of talent has come out of PA, Little Rock Christian, etc., over the years.

Does Little Rock have a football problem?  Apparently so, one that is directly related to its overall public school problem.  Does Arkansas have a competitive problem in rural areas due to the size of small school districts?  Maybe so.  But those small school districts produce pretty good football players occasionally.  It is what it is and that is not going to change as long as Arkansas's rural population stays as it is now.

Arkansas not a football state?  Uh huh.     

You actually just proved my point. You want so badly for Arkansas to be known for football. Yes, when Arkansas steams play each other the games are sometimes very good, competitive games. Although, the scores often tell a different story. 2 weeks ago, out of 102 games, at least 37 were in the mercy rule at some point. That means at least 39 games saw one team ahead by at least 35 points at some point.

Your comments about baseball are why I said this is a baseball state, because Arkansas is a white state. Arkansas is 77% white, and only 15% AA. With most of the AA population living in the LR area and the SE part of the state.
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bphi11ips

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2017, 10:55:05 am »

You actually just proved my point. You want so badly for Arkansas to be known for football. Yes, when Arkansas steams play each other the games are sometimes very good, competitive games. Although, the scores often tell a different story. 2 weeks ago, out of 102 games, at least 37 were in the mercy rule at some point. That means at least 39 games saw one team ahead by at least 35 points at some point.

Your comments about baseball are why I said this is a baseball state, because Arkansas is a white state. Arkansas is 77% white, and only 15% AA. With most of the AA population living in the LR area and the SE part of the state.

You have no idea what I want or don’t want. What you fail to recognize is I know exactly what I’m talking about and you do not.
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hogsanity

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2017, 10:59:35 am »

You have no idea what I want or don’t want. What you fail to recognize is I know exactly what I’m talking about and you do not.

What makes it a football state? # of p5 players signed out of the state? # of people attending games? # of kids playing? Simply saying it is a football state?
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bphi11ips

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2017, 11:16:20 am »

What makes it a football state? # of p5 players signed out of the state? # of people attending games? # of kids playing? Simply saying it is a football state?

Huh? The mindset of the populace. Have you been paying any attention to the media or to Hogville lately?  Do you think the entire state really gives a rat’s rear if Dave Van Horn goes .500 the next five years?

You keep telling yourself Arkansas is a baseball state if it makes you feel better.
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hogsanity

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2017, 11:18:27 am »

Huh? The mindset of the populace. Have you been paying any attention to the media or to Hogville lately?  Do you think the entire state really gives a rat’s rear if Dave Van Horn goes .500 the next five years?

You keep telling yourself Arkansas is a baseball state if it makes you feel better.

I was referring to the actual players produced. They can call themselves a football state, a basketball state or a tiddly winks state, but it does not make it so.
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bphi11ips

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2017, 11:52:20 am »

I was referring to the actual players produced. They can call themselves a football state, a basketball state or a tiddly winks state, but it does not make it so.

Google is not your friend:

http://usatodayhss.com/2017/division-i-baseball-recruiting-florida-georgia-virginia

https://www.sbnation.com/college-football-recruiting/2017/4/18/15340728/recruits-per-state-ncaa-map

According to the NCAA, 4.2% of Arkansas high school football players are recruited by D1 schools, while 2.8% of Arkansas baseball players are recruited by D1 schools.

There are 298 NCAA Division 1 baseball teams.  There are 254 D1 football programs.

Whoops.

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hogsanity

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2017, 11:55:47 am »

Google is not your friend:

http://usatodayhss.com/2017/division-i-baseball-recruiting-florida-georgia-virginia

https://www.sbnation.com/college-football-recruiting/2017/4/18/15340728/recruits-per-state-ncaa-map

According to the NCAA, 4.2% of Arkansas high school football players are recruited by D1 schools, while 2.8% of Arkansas baseball players are recruited by D1 schools.

There are 298 NCAA Division 1 baseball teams.  There are 254 D1 football programs.

Whoops.



Now we are going to count players recruited? What about HS players that never go to college, but go directly to the minors?

And the article you linked clearly states you can be recruited without ever being offered, much less actually getting a scholarship.

How many kids in each sport, from Arkansas, actually get scholarships? How many in p5, fbs, and all of d1?

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sickboy

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2017, 11:56:27 am »

Google is not your friend:

http://usatodayhss.com/2017/division-i-baseball-recruiting-florida-georgia-virginia

https://www.sbnation.com/college-football-recruiting/2017/4/18/15340728/recruits-per-state-ncaa-map

According to the NCAA, 4.2% of Arkansas high school football players are recruited by D1 schools, while 2.8% of Arkansas baseball players are recruited by D1 schools.

There are 298 NCAA Division 1 baseball teams.  There are 254 D1 football programs.

Whoops.



I'm not going to read USA today or SB nation, but just being recruited doesn't mean much. I was recruited in high school, but I didn't even play in college.

What are the actual numbers on players that "make it". I'm sure football is still probably higher. But I would imagine football is generally higher than baseball in every state in the country. Except some weird states like... South Dakota or something.
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bphi11ips

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2017, 12:03:43 pm »

Now we are going to count players recruited? What about HS players that never go to college, but go directly to the minors?



Do you think a player with talent to sign a minor league deal out of high school might be recruited by D1 schools?  Didn't read that too carefully, did you?

You're the one who asserted a proposition without offering support - that Arkansas is a baseball state and not a football state.  Then you said you are talking about players produced, again without support.  Now that I have provided numbers that contradict your theory, you tell me I want to count numbers?

Keep digging.  I'll be standing up here with a shovel.
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hogsanity

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2017, 12:07:08 pm »

Do you think a player with talent to sign a minor league deal out of high school might be recruited by D1 schools?  Didn't read that too carefully, did you?

You're the one who asserted a proposition without offering support - that Arkansas is a baseball state and not a football state.  Then you said you are talking about players produced, again without support.  Now that I have provided numbers that contradict your theory, you tell me I want to count numbers?

Keep digging.  I'll be standing up here with a shovel.

What #'s did you provide? Recruited? As another poster said, and the article you cited stated, lost of people get "recruited" ut not only do not get scholarships, they never play in college at all.

How many Arkansas HS players got fbs football scholarships. How many got basketball scholarships, and how many got baseball scholarships?
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bphi11ips

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2017, 12:13:10 pm »

I'm not going to read USA today or SB nation, but just being recruited doesn't mean much. I was recruited in high school, but I didn't even play in college.

What are the actual numbers on players that "make it". I'm sure football is still probably higher. But I would imagine football is generally higher than baseball in every state in the country. Except some weird states like... South Dakota or something.

Well - being recruited was the criteria used by the NCAA to conduct its research.  You don't say why you didn't play in college.  My guess is that the NCAA defined "recruit" much the same way as Websters defines it - "to secure the services of". 
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bphi11ips

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2017, 12:14:12 pm »

What #'s did you provide? Recruited? As another poster said, and the article you cited stated, lost of people get "recruited" ut not only do not get scholarships, they never play in college at all.

How many Arkansas HS players got fbs football scholarships. How many got basketball scholarships, and how many got baseball scholarships?

Do you think you're making any sense?
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hogsanity

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2017, 12:19:23 pm »

Do you think you're making any sense?

Yea, it is a pretty easy question, how many AR HS players actually signed scholarships to play the various sports listed.
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bphi11ips

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2017, 12:22:55 pm »

Yea, it is a pretty easy question, how many AR HS players actually signed scholarships to play the various sports listed.

Why don't you go look?  I just gave you numbers directly from the NCAA that blow your theory out of the water.  Not surprisingly, you don't have the balls to admit it when you're wrong.
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hassettsportsman

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2017, 12:39:00 pm »

It doesn't make for easy coffee table discussion, but Jimmy the Greek was right.  And certainly as a percentage of population, Arkansas can't produce the relative number of gifted athletes that other states can.  I'm not moving to the Dakotas...I prefer Arkansas with all it's failings and successes.  Go Hogs!
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urkillnmesmalls

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2017, 12:50:00 pm »

I'm not going to read USA today or SB nation, but just being recruited doesn't mean much. I was recruited in high school, but I didn't even play in college.

What are the actual numbers on players that "make it". I'm sure football is still probably higher. But I would imagine football is generally higher than baseball in every state in the country. Except some weird states like... South Dakota or something.

My favorite "recruiting story" bar none.  We had a girl in our HS who was an exceptional Oboe player.  Yep...Oboe.  She dropped from band after her sophomore year.  As a SR, she received no less than 10 full ride scholarships to play Oboe in bands across the country, despite having not played a note on it for two years.   

Moral of the story...if you want to go to college for free, choose something that's obscure.   ;D
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bphi11ips

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2017, 12:56:58 pm »

My favorite "recruiting story" bar none.  We had a girl in our HS who was an exceptional Oboe player.  Yep...Oboe.  She dropped from band after her sophomore year.  As a SR, she received no less than 10 full ride scholarships to play Oboe in bands across the country, despite having not played a note on it for two years.   

Moral of the story...if you want to go to college for free, choose something that's obscure.   ;D

Oboe. That's the ticket!  Arkansas is an oboe state!
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hogsanity

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2017, 12:57:17 pm »

Why don't you go look?  I just gave you numbers directly from the NCAA that blow your theory out of the water.  Not surprisingly, you don't have the balls to admit it when you're wrong.

What theory did I present about players " recruited "? I am and always have been talking about players on scholarship.
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hogsolutely

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2017, 12:58:21 pm »

We are a Track state!  Not that we produce them, but we can recruit them an coach them! 
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bphi11ips

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2017, 01:02:36 pm »

Your comments about baseball are why I said this is a baseball state, because Arkansas is a white state. Arkansas is 77% white, and only 15% AA. With most of the AA population living in the LR area and the SE part of the state.

Hassets' post got me thinking more about what you said here.  If demographics were the only criteria, Mississippi would be the only football state in the country.
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urkillnmesmalls

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2017, 01:06:20 pm »

Oboe. That's the ticket!  Arkansas is an oboe state!

Might be....   ;D   Point is...if you're good at something, someone will find out.  That's even more evident now with social media and "highlight films" etc. 

These kids playing baseball all year round now...shoulder and elbow issues waiting to happen.  I LOVE to go watch youth baseball, but I can hardly go anymore, because I get irritated and annoyed at the way the parents act.  I'm not a MLB scout, but I can watch a youth game and easily pick out the two best players on the field.  If your kid isn't at least one of those, enjoy the ride...they're not going to play beyond JV.  But man...you'd never know it by how seriously they take it.     
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wildturkey8

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2017, 01:07:44 pm »

Arkansas HS do not need to produce not the same number of recruits as the other SEC states, it just needs to produce enough.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2017, 03:03:22 pm by wildturkey8 »
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bphi11ips

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2017, 01:08:11 pm »

What theory did I present about players " recruited "? I am and always have been talking about players on scholarship.

Couldn't find anything, huh?

Here's the deal - common sense dictates that percentage recruited directly correlates to percentage signed.  You have no stats on those signed or you would present them because you just got your head handed to you.
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hogsanity

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2017, 01:10:10 pm »

Hassets' post got me thinking more about what you said here.  If demographics were the only criteria, Mississippi would be the only football state in the country.

Why? Florida, GA, SC, LA, AL all have more AA's than does Mississippi. Now all of those have at least 3 times the # of AA's than does Ar. FL has more AA population than Ar has total population.
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hogsanity

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2017, 01:13:13 pm »

Couldn't find anything, huh?

Here's the deal - common sense dictates that percentage recruited directly correlates to percentage signed.  You have no stats on those signed or you would present them because you just got your head handed to you.

I am looking. I cant find any breakdowns for baseball and basketball scholarships by state.
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sickboy

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2017, 01:35:46 pm »

Well - being recruited was the criteria used by the NCAA to conduct its research.  You don't say why you didn't play in college.  My guess is that the NCAA defined "recruit" much the same way as Websters defines it - "to secure the services of". 

You're wrong, Walter. In this instance, the preferred application of the word recruit in transitive verb form would mean to seek to enroll. Which, in itself, implies that that enrollment is an entirely different category.

Hell, they even state that at the top of your second link as a caveat:

The NCAA’s definition of a “recruited” player is fairly broad:

“Any solicitation of prospective student-athletes or their parents by an institutional staff member or by a representative of the institution’s athletics interests for the purpose of securing a prospective student-athlete’s enrollment and ultimate participation in the institution’s intercollegiate athletics program.”

Players are often “recruited” without being offered scholarships, and sometimes without even the chance of being offered scholarships. That’s an important distinction, but some of these numbers are interesting anyway.



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bphi11ips

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2017, 01:45:49 pm »

Might be....   ;D   Point is...if you're good at something, someone will find out.  That's even more evident now with social media and "highlight films" etc. 

These kids playing baseball all year round now...shoulder and elbow issues waiting to happen.  I LOVE to go watch youth baseball, but I can hardly go anymore, because I get irritated and annoyed at the way the parents act.  I'm not a MLB scout, but I can watch a youth game and easily pick out the two best players on the field.  If your kid isn't at least one of those, enjoy the ride...they're not going to play beyond JV.  But man...you'd never know it by how seriously they take it.     

I could go on all day about youth baseball.  It is a microcosm of the screwed up society we live in. 

There was something really cool about Little League baseball where 15 or so kids aged 9-12 played together for 4 years on 60-foot base paths.  The less talented and/or younger kids learned from the older, better players.  Off the field during baseball season all we did was play baseball in the neighborhood or talk baseball.  It was a way of life.  I somehow managed to get a minor league offer without a single private lesson.  The closest I came to a travel team before American Legion was playing in all-star games. 

Today the "elite" kids play on 70-foot bases.  Cal Ripken league started this nonsense as a marketing ploy to differentiate itself from the dominant Little League.  Little League has experimented with the larger fields in response, but the World Series is played on 60 foot paths.  LL also refuses to force kids to pitch from the stretch.  Another dandy Ripken innovation.  What really gets fun is this - every kid who isn't "elite" at age 10 or so gets to play on the 70 foot paths and pitch from the stretch, because the travel coaches rule, and there is really not much interest in scaling fields for 60 foot paths.  You can move the bases easily enough, but the pitcher's mound is another story.

The result of all this is that kids who haven't hit double digits in age are relegated to rec leagues, where they and their parents suffer through games punctuated by walks from pitchers not yet ready to deliver strikes from 50 feet.  What happens next is the first base coaches shouts "run" as soon the pitcher starts his stretch.  The catcher can't make the throw to second.  I went through an entire season umpiring this farce without seeing a single runner thrown out at second.  For a game to get past the third inning within the time limit was a miracle. The body language of the parents and players told the story - they were miserable.

Does the system we have today produce some great baseball players with solid middle-class, white backgrounds?  Yep, those who don't destroy their arms first.  Major League baseball rosters are full of them.  I wonder how many players with potential to be great get a sour taste about baseball before they're even old enough to understand what a great game it is.
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bphi11ips

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2017, 01:47:45 pm »

You're wrong, Walter. In this instance, the preferred application of the word recruit in transitive verb form would mean to seek to enroll. Which, in itself, implies that that enrollment is an entirely different category.

Hell, they even state that at the top of your second link as a caveat:

The NCAA’s definition of a “recruited” player is fairly broad:

“Any solicitation of prospective student-athletes or their parents by an institutional staff member or by a representative of the institution’s athletics interests for the purpose of securing a prospective student-athlete’s enrollment and ultimate participation in the institution’s intercollegiate athletics program.”

Players are often “recruited” without being offered scholarships, and sometimes without even the chance of being offered scholarships. That’s an important distinction, but some of these numbers are interesting anyway.

Got any numbers bud?  So far it's 4.2 football to 2.8 baseball. 


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hogsanity

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2017, 01:50:28 pm »

Might be....   ;D   Point is...if you're good at something, someone will find out.  That's even more evident now with social media and "highlight films" etc. 

These kids playing baseball all year round now...shoulder and elbow issues waiting to happen.  I LOVE to go watch youth baseball, but I can hardly go anymore, because I get irritated and annoyed at the way the parents act.  I'm not a MLB scout, but I can watch a youth game and easily pick out the two best players on the field.  If your kid isn't at least one of those, enjoy the ride...they're not going to play beyond JV.  But man...you'd never know it by how seriously they take it.     

Youth baseball is full of crazy parents, but they are not any more delusional than football or basketball parents. Baseball just has more outlets for them to take their kids to when one does not work out. I officiate all 3 sports, and my kid plays baseball. Anyone can start a travel team, and if you do not like the one your kid is on, just shop him around. Believe me, if there was such a thing as travel football, parents would line up for that too. You are exactly right, youth baseball leagues are atrocious because all the pitching is gone.
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go hogues

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #38 on: November 06, 2017, 01:52:06 pm »

I could go on all day about youth baseball.  It is a microcosm of the screwed up society we live in. 

There was something really cool about Little League baseball where 15 or so kids aged 9-12 played together for 4 years on 60-foot base paths.  The less talented and/or younger kids learned from the older, better players.  Off the field during baseball season all we did was play baseball in the neighborhood or talk baseball.  It was a way of life.  I somehow managed to get a minor league offer without a single private lesson.  The closest I came to a travel team before American Legion was playing in all-star games. 

Today the "elite" kids play on 70-foot bases.  Cal Ripken league started this nonsense as a marketing ploy to differentiate itself from the dominant Little League.  Little League has experimented with the larger fields in response, but the World Series is played on 60 foot paths.  LL also refuses to force kids to pitch from the stretch.  Another dandy Ripken innovation.  What really gets fun is this - every kid who isn't "elite" at age 10 or so gets to play on the 70 foot paths and pitch from the stretch, because the travel coaches rule, and there is really not much interest in scaling fields for 60 foot paths.  You can move the bases easily enough, but the pitcher's mound is another story.

The result of all this is that kids who haven't hit double digits in age are relegated to rec leagues, where they and their parents suffer through games punctuated by walks from pitchers not yet ready to deliver strikes from 50 feet.  What happens next is the first base coaches shouts "run" as soon the pitcher starts his stretch.  The catcher can't make the throw to second.  I went through an entire season umpiring this farce without seeing a single runner thrown out at second.  For a game to get past the third inning within the time limit was a miracle. The body language of the parents and players told the story - they were miserable.

Does the system we have today produce some great baseball players with solid middle-class, white backgrounds?  Yep, those who don't destroy their arms first.  Major League baseball rosters are full of them.  I wonder how many players with potential to be great get a sour taste about baseball before they're even old enough to understand what a great game it is.
Dang. Didn't know that. Thanks for sharing.
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jst01

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #39 on: November 06, 2017, 01:54:29 pm »

I know one thing, its much easier to identify true talent at a young age in baseball than football. Some parents I think realize their kid doesn't have it at a young age, but just don't want to let it go.
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bphi11ips

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #40 on: November 06, 2017, 01:54:36 pm »

Why? Florida, GA, SC, LA, AL all have more AA's than does Mississippi. Now all of those have at least 3 times the # of AA's than does Ar. FL has more AA population than Ar has total population.

Dude.  You yourself expressed the numbers as percentages.  African Americans make up 15% of Arkansas's population. Same with Florida and Tennessee.  In fact, there is one state in the country where African American population exceeds white population as a percentage of total population -Mississippi.

I'll bet it's fun watching you ref a game.  When the rules don't help you change them
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hogsanity

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #41 on: November 06, 2017, 02:02:36 pm »

I could go on all day about youth baseball.  It is a microcosm of the screwed up society we live in. 

There was something really cool about Little League baseball where 15 or so kids aged 9-12 played together for 4 years on 60-foot base paths.  The less talented and/or younger kids learned from the older, better players.  Off the field during baseball season all we did was play baseball in the neighborhood or talk baseball.  It was a way of life.  I somehow managed to get a minor league offer without a single private lesson.  The closest I came to a travel team before American Legion was playing in all-star games. 

Today the "elite" kids play on 70-foot bases.  Cal Ripken league started this nonsense as a marketing ploy to differentiate itself from the dominant Little League.  Little League has experimented with the larger fields in response, but the World Series is played on 60 foot paths.  LL also refuses to force kids to pitch from the stretch.  Another dandy Ripken innovation.  What really gets fun is this - every kid who isn't "elite" at age 10 or so gets to play on the 70 foot paths and pitch from the stretch, because the travel coaches rule, and there is really not much interest in scaling fields for 60 foot paths.  You can move the bases easily enough, but the pitcher's mound is another story.

The result of all this is that kids who haven't hit double digits in age are relegated to rec leagues, where they and their parents suffer through games punctuated by walks from pitchers not yet ready to deliver strikes from 50 feet.  What happens next is the first base coaches shouts "run" as soon the pitcher starts his stretch.  The catcher can't make the throw to second.  I went through an entire season umpiring this farce without seeing a single runner thrown out at second.  For a game to get past the third inning within the time limit was a miracle. The body language of the parents and players told the story - they were miserable.

Does the system we have today produce some great baseball players with solid middle-class, white backgrounds?  Yep, those who don't destroy their arms first.  Major League baseball rosters are full of them.  I wonder how many players with potential to be great get a sour taste about baseball before they're even old enough to understand what a great game it is.

You do know the base paths and pitching distances change with every 2 years of age in Ripken, dont you? 9 and 10's do not play on 50/70 fields. They play 46/65. 11 & 12's play 50/70. 13's can play either 60/90 of 54/80. 14 & up play 60/90.

No where that I know of do 9 yr olds play on the same team with 12 yr olds, that is just crazy. Every youth league I know of separates kids into 2 yr ranges, at most, and some do it one year per age group.

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hogsanity

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #42 on: November 06, 2017, 02:04:41 pm »

I know one thing, its much easier to identify true talent at a young age in baseball than football. Some parents I think realize their kid doesn't have it at a young age, but just don't want to let it go.

Maybe, although baseball is full of stories of kids who do not do much until late HS or even once they go play at a small college or juco. Cant think of the guys name, but he started for the Phillies this year as a infielder, he was 29. Did not even start in HS, and went to 3 different colleges before it finally clicked for him.
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urkillnmesmalls

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #43 on: November 06, 2017, 02:11:40 pm »

I know one thing, its much easier to identify true talent at a young age in baseball than football. Some parents I think realize their kid doesn't have it at a young age, but just don't want to let it go.

I'll agree in principle, but by the same token...if your kid isn't one of the fastest kids in their player group, or in most cases THE fastest kid, then their hopes of playing football past HS is slim to none.  So...that's a pretty quick qualifier or disqualifier for football.  If you're hoping to be a LB in college, especially the SEC, then you better be able to smoke the other LB's, and be right with the RB's and WR's on your HS team in MOST cases.  I realize a LOT more goes into it than that, but you better start with that as a baseline.   
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bphi11ips

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #44 on: November 06, 2017, 02:18:46 pm »

You do know the base paths and pitching distances change with every 2 years of age in Ripken, dont you? 9 and 10's do not play on 50/70 fields. They play 46/65. 11 & 12's play 50/70. 13's can play either 60/90 of 54/80. 14 & up play 60/90.

No where that I know of do 9 yr olds play on the same team with 12 yr olds, that is just crazy. Every youth league I know of separates kids into 2 yr ranges, at most, and some do it one year per age group.



Yeah.  I know the Ripken rules probably better than you do.  I was a few days away from chartering a Little League franchise in my community so kids would have a place to play baseball under manageable rules.  I pissed a lot of people off who have their very profitable fiefdom here in my community based upon "major league" vs. "rec league" baseball.  Ripken Ball.  The parks guy wasn't excited about having to juggle fields for Little League, but he wouldn't have had a choice.  In the end, I realized I am too busy to spearhead a new baseball league, but it's something that needs to be done in my community as well as many others.  Little League's research shows that 90% of 11-12 year olds are not ready for 70 foot base paths.

The reason 10 year old kids were playing on 70 foot base paths is because that is the way the fields were configured.  Even worse.

You're 10 years younger than I am.  Look again at my post.  In the 70s in Little Rock, Little League was 9-12 at Junior Deputy.  I could give you the names of plenty of players who played there.  One you might recognize was Bruce Jenkins.  Bruce was SWC Freshman of the Year before he drowned the summer before his sophomore year.  Great guy and player.  Others were Danny and Dennis Nutt.  Their dad coached there for years.  I played for National Old Line for four years.  That's the way it was.   
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IronHog

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #45 on: November 06, 2017, 02:32:05 pm »

While the question is being asked is Arkansas a football school, one really has to ask, is Arkansas a football state? I say the answer to that is no. While we enjoy football, as a state we are not very good at playing it. Our teams, when compared to similar teams in other states, are small and slow. We enjoy watching football, many towns live and die with their local high school team, and from time to time the state produces an excellent player, but it is not a football state because the football product for the most part is not very good.

But I will go even further. Arkansas is not a very athletic state, period. While basketball is very good in a couple areas ( LR being one ) most of the basketball in Ar suffers from the same problems as does football, small and slow.

If anything, Arkansas is a baseball state, that is a sport where size and speed are not as big of factor, and I do not think it is a coincidence that the UofA has been more successful in baseball that any other sport over the last 15-20 years ( maybe track, but even it had a lull after John M left ).

Now, the people WANT this to be a football state and for the UofA to be a football school because that is where they see the glory, the recognition. Football is easier for fans to get involved with too with bigger venues, fewer games, usually on a Sat so it is easier to attend, you can tailgate much easier for football than other sports too.

Oddly though, football is also the hardest sport for a university to be truly good in. Lose 1 game and you are likely out of the NC picture, 2 and you are probably almost out of NYD6 bowls contention. 3 of more losses, and you start wondering what middle level bowl you are playing in at 3pm someday between Christmas and NY eve.


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hogsanity

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #46 on: November 06, 2017, 02:38:36 pm »

Yeah.  I know the Ripken rules probably better than you do.  I was a few days away from chartering a Little League franchise in my community so kids would have a place to play baseball under manageable rules.  I pissed a lot of people off who have their very profitable fiefdom here in my community based upon "major league" vs. "rec league" baseball.  Ripken Ball.  The parks guy wasn't excited about having to juggle fields for Little League, but he wouldn't have had a choice.  In the end, I realized I am too busy to spearhead a new baseball league, but it's something that needs to be done in my community as well as many others.  Little League's research shows that 90% of 11-12 year olds are not ready for 70 foot base paths.

The reason 10 year old kids were playing on 70 foot base paths is because that is the way the fields were configured.  Even worse.

You're 10 years younger than I am.  Look again at my post.  In the 70s in Little Rock, Little League was 9-12 at Junior Deputy.  I could give you the names of plenty of players who played there.  One you might recognize was Bruce Jenkins.  Bruce was SWC Freshman of the Year before he drowned the summer before his sophomore year.  Great guy and player.  Others were Danny and Dennis Nutt.  Their dad coached there for years.  I played for National Old Line for four years.  That's the way it was.   

I know plenty about leagues. I run a fall league and have been associated with the spring league here for 15 years.

I think what has happened to youth baseball is atrocious, maybe worse than what AAU did to basketball. I also know if someone could figure out how to do it, they would ruin youth football too.

But I also know LL is changing the birthdate cutoff for their age groups because it was absurd having 13 yr olds playing on the 44/60 fields with 200 ft fences.
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urkillnmesmalls

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #47 on: November 06, 2017, 02:39:11 pm »

Yeah.  I know the Ripken rules probably better than you do.  I was a few days away from chartering a Little League franchise in my community so kids would have a place to play baseball under manageable rules.  I pissed a lot of people off who have their very profitable fiefdom here in my community based upon "major league" vs. "rec league" baseball.  Ripken Ball.  The parks guy wasn't excited about having to juggle fields for Little League, but he wouldn't have had a choice.  In the end, I realized I am too busy to spearhead a new baseball league, but it's something that needs to be done in my community as well as many others.  Little League's research shows that 90% of 11-12 year olds are not ready for 70 foot base paths.

The reason 10 year old kids were playing on 70 foot base paths is because that is the way the fields were configured.  Even worse.

You're 10 years younger than I am.  Look again at my post.  In the 70s in Little Rock, Little League was 9-12 at Junior Deputy.  I could give you the names of plenty of players who played there.  One you might recognize was Bruce Jenkins.  Bruce was SWC Freshman of the Year before he drowned the summer before his sophomore year.  Great guy and player.  Others were Danny and Dennis Nutt.  Their dad coached there for years.  I played for National Old Line for four years.  That's the way it was.   

Hey..is that Chris and Tim's brother?  If so, I remember that horrible story.  He was swimming across a pond and just disappeared right?  Hard to imagine that.  I didn't realize he was a star baseball player.  I do know that Tim was one of the best ball strikers I've ever seen swing a club, but he needed his brother Chris's short game.   :)
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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #48 on: November 06, 2017, 02:40:39 pm »

I don't think the number of D-1 prospect a state does or does not produce defines it as a "football" state.  Arkansas is a sports crazy place--local sports crazy.  When you're talking about large numbers of pro fans, you're mostly just talking about Dallas Cowboys fans and St. Louis Cardinals fans.

I think that most states of Arkansas' size experience D-1 talented seniors in waves.  We've been in a bit of a trough lately, but that may well be able to change.

For all of the talk about the demise of Pulaski County area football, consider this:  North Little Rock is a legit 7A contender.  Pulaski Academy is what it is.  Robinson is the odds-on favorite to win 4A.  LR Christian, LR McClellan, and LR Parkview are all solid.  McClellan might get even better when the new Southwest High is built.  Little Rock-area HS football is better this year than it has been in several seasons, IMO.
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bphi11ips

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Re: Arkansas is not a football state, or a basketball state either
« Reply #49 on: November 06, 2017, 02:42:25 pm »

I'll agree in principle, but by the same token...if your kid isn't one of the fastest kids in their player group, or in most cases THE fastest kid, then their hopes of playing football past HS is slim to none.  So...that's a pretty quick qualifier or disqualifier for football.  If you're hoping to be a LB in college, especially the SEC, then you better be able to smoke the other LB's, and be right with the RB's and WR's on your HS team in MOST cases.  I realize a LOT more goes into it than that, but you better start with that as a baseline.   

It is completely untrue that baseball players can be identified earlier than football players.  What you said is true - speed and size are unknown until an athlete is fully developed physically.

The most important criteria for a baseball travel team coach at an early age is height, assuming a kid can walk and chew gum.  Next is whether he is left handed.  For some reason, every left handed kid is a pitching prospect - doesn't matter whether he can pitch or not. 

The biggest difference between football and baseball is that baseball requires skills that can be taught even to relatively unathletic kids.  That's what makes it the Great White Hope.  That's why coaches and travel leagues are making fortunes teaching little Johnny to play baseball.  It's a dirty little secret that those in the business or with kids in development react violently to when confronted with it.  There's plenty written about it.  I'm not making this up.  I just hate it for what it's done to the game at the grass roots level when kids are exploring what they love and where their passion lies. Kids need to play a variety of sports, and they need to do it on a level, relatively unpressured playing field before they decide whether they want to make one a year-round endeavor.  And that should come at the earliest in high school.

The truth is that a natural athlete can generally play most sports well.  There are mental and physical attributes a natural athlete will exhibit early that others won't.  Some with those attributes burn out at an early age.  Others never develop physically to go beyond a certain level.  Some are built particularly well for a given sport.  Early growth and parents can be hints, but are not foolproof by any means. 

Those who do the best in any particular sport over time are usually those who played a variety of sports that, taken together, developed a variety of skills and muscle groups at an early age.  Explosive, athletic position is fairly common throughout sports, even golf.  Having said that, sports like golf, tennis, baseball and soccer require skills that go beyond overpowering speed and athleticism.  If those skills - and the muscle memory that goes with them - are not learned early, most athletes who enter the game later will be at a serious disadvantage to those who master fundamentals early.       
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