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Author Topic: Two Narratives  (Read 2798 times)

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bphi11ips

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #50 on: November 06, 2017, 10:51:24 am »

When was the last time Arkansas was truly great in football? Where year after year after year after year they were ranked? Do you know, the last time they finished the season ranked 3 years in a row was 77-79. They finished in the top 16 4 times in 5 years from 85-89 ( 87 they finished unranked but went 9-4 played 12 reg seasons games because they went to Hawaii ).

Since 1990 they have only finished the season ranked 5 times. So tell me, when was the last time the were truly great?

What does that have to do with anything I posted? 

I don’t follow the Razorbacks because they have ever been “truly great”.  If that were my standard I would be an Alabama fan. Or Ohio State. Or New England.

Like most Razorback fans, I am a fan by accident of birth. The state of Arkansas and the University of Arkansas are both truly great to me.

One thing and one thing only made the Arkansas Razorbacks football team great - it was an institution that united the truly great state of Arkansas during much of the 20th century. It was that status as a statewide institution that attracted Frank Broyles to the job. Whether that status still exists is the elephant in the room. Whether it will continue in the 21st century is the $160,000,000 question.
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Oklahawg

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #51 on: November 06, 2017, 11:12:48 am »

Who is doing the narration of these two narratives? That was long. I lost interest before I made it to the end.

There is no fan war going on other than here on Hogville, per usual. 90% of the fanbase doesn't comment on or read any internet bulletin board.

Was with a Razorback fan from Memphis this week at the Little Red. He is not aware of Hogville or any other online board. He thinks the record of Bielema speaks for itself and believes it is time to move on from Bielema. He also said that he has no confidence in Long picking the next head coach. Pretty simple. Record speaks for itself and how could any Hog fan think Bielema or Long deserve more time in their current jobs.

You bring SOOOO much to HV.
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hehawg

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #52 on: November 06, 2017, 11:13:23 am »

top 10 longest post in hogville history...but agree with most of what was mentioned
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Oklahawg

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #53 on: November 06, 2017, 11:15:07 am »

There are three camps -
1. Good ole boys that want it like it will never be again.
2. Helicopter fans - that want what is best for the kids and want to nurture they boo boos and shield them from negativity
3. Apathy fans - Folks that do not care who comes in but want this mess fixed regardless of who it is but want them in there yesterday.

I fall in category three.  I will look at the final score of LSU and not get my agita up during the evisceration.


I can't fault the categories and you did it in far fewer words than I did.
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Oklahawg

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #54 on: November 06, 2017, 11:16:34 am »

top 10 longest post in hogville history...but agree with most of what was mentioned

I probably own 3-4 of the others in the top 10.
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Oklahawg

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #55 on: November 06, 2017, 11:20:28 am »

This post embodies what is wrong with our country today. Everything must be labeled and categorized. Everyone must fit into one group or another. It's complete bull. My beliefs and decisions I make based on those beliefs are formed by a lifetime of unique experiences. Nobody has the same experiences so their decisions will never be the same as someone else 100% of the time. Stop categorizing people into groups.

If you really want to analyze something you have to dive in and do some hard work. You have to try and find trends and tendencies. Categories help people determine if the analytical work is helpful, or not.

My categories may not be helpful, but they are not trite or superficial. I promise you most everyone who reads this thread will (a) see if the categories seem useful, (b) see if they fit into one of them, and/or (c) consider alternatives to either the definitions or come up with other options. That is human nature - we are hard-wired genetically to try to create order out of chaos.

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urkillnmesmalls

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #56 on: November 06, 2017, 11:20:36 am »

This is the one thing I was thinking about too. They screamed about how the GOBN had to go, and now they scream about " we need a good ole southern boy, a Arkansas guy, someone who understands Arkansas " when they wanted all those very types run off less than a decade ago.

The extra spicy irony here is that many of the people who are in the "never should have fired Petrino" camp, don't seem to realize he wasn't from the south....not even close.   ::)   Yet we keep hearing that we need a coach "From the south, who understands southern traditions, has ties, etc."   
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ricepig

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #57 on: November 06, 2017, 11:22:32 am »

top 10 longest post in hogville history...but agree with most of what was mentioned

You a n00b, Benny and whoiskid have 100's longer than this.
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snoblind

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #58 on: November 06, 2017, 11:26:12 am »

You a n00b, Benny and whoiskid have 100's longer than this.

1000's.  Speaking of whoiskid, hope he is ok.  I know he had health issues and have not noticed him posting in some time.
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bphi11ips

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #59 on: November 06, 2017, 11:27:50 am »

You bring SOOOO much to HV.

HiM is right. The vast majority of Arkansas fans do not post on message boards and have never heard of Hogville. I mentioned Hogville to an Arkansas fan a couple of years ago and he looked at me like I was from Group W. Maybe he was right.
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GuvHog

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #60 on: November 06, 2017, 11:27:57 am »

1000's.  Speaking of whoiskid, hope he is ok.  I know he had health issues and have not noticed him posting in some time.

I noticed that Fatty hasn't posted in a while either.
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HoginMemphis

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #61 on: November 06, 2017, 11:28:15 am »

You bring SOOOO much to HV.
About as much as you...and 99% of everyone else. Get over yourself.
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snoblind

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #62 on: November 06, 2017, 11:30:57 am »

I noticed that Fatty hasn't posted in a while either.

The way I understood it Fatty took a voluntary leave of absence because of Hogcard1964 not being called out by more folks/banned.
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ricepig

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #63 on: November 06, 2017, 11:31:25 am »

About as much as you...and 99% of everyone else. Get over yourself.

It's those dang 1%ers that PiginthePokey complains about.......
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snoblind

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #64 on: November 06, 2017, 11:32:36 am »

About as much as you...and 99% of everyone else. Get over yourself.

:)
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Lady Razorback

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #65 on: November 06, 2017, 11:35:24 am »

HiM is right. The vast majority of Arkansas fans do not post on message boards and have never heard of Hogville. I mentioned Hogville to an Arkansas fan a couple of years ago and he looked at me like I was from Group W. Maybe he was right.

My Facebook and Twitter feeds are consistent with opinions here on HV.
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hogsanity

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #66 on: November 06, 2017, 11:37:54 am »

HiM is right. The vast majority of Arkansas fans do not post on message boards and have never heard of Hogville. I mentioned Hogville to an Arkansas fan a couple of years ago and he looked at me like I was from Group W. Maybe he was right.

Most fans do not post on message boards, or call radio shows, or spend much time at all worrying about who the coach is or where the AD is from, or any of the other things we post about on here. I was with about a dozen people that I would consider Hog fans last night, and we talked about the Hogs. Sentiment seemed to be that BB would be let go, we'd hire someone new, and in 4 or 5 years do it again.
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urkillnmesmalls

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #67 on: November 06, 2017, 11:52:47 am »

I completely agree with your first post.


As to your second, I think there is room for disagreement on BP. Initially, I was very disappointed by the firing, but with time, realize it was justified, but it's ancient history. Those who don't trust Long's judgment on hiring base it on more than the BP debacle, but the rumors regarding his consideration of Grobe, etc. I don't think many want him to hire someone with baggage; they are just wanting assurances he will do due diligence in his next selection. On its surface, the hiring of BB was a home run, but not everyone was convinced. Time has proven them right.


At any rate, it's time for new blood.

When I look back, it's kind of funny.  Once I accepted the hiring of BB, I had a theme, and was that he would have to get some difference makers to succeed.  Ala Russel Wilson type of situation.  BUT...and this is a little embarrassing, I suggested that even if he didn't manage that, we would be in great shape for whoever the next coach would be, because of his emphasis on the basics of building a team...THE TRENCHES. 

Yet here we are with that being what most view as our biggest deficiencies...and O-line that can't run or pass block well, and a D-line that can't get pressure.  So...even the fallback that I thought would leave us in good standing...poof city.   :(

That's really where I completely lost faith.  I don't want to hear a coach who has full control of recruiting making whiny comments about not being able to coach the guys he recruited to block people.  He should be embarrassed about ever having made that comment...while simultaneously bragging about our GPA and graduation rates.  That's bad math. 
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cjack

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #68 on: November 06, 2017, 12:03:16 pm »

There are three camps -
1. Good ole boys that want it like it will never be again.
2. Helicopter fans - that want what is best for the kids and want to nurture they boo boos and shield them from negativity
3. Apathy fans - Folks that do not care who comes in but want this mess fixed regardless of who it is but want them in there yesterday.

I fall in category three.  I will look at the final score of LSU and not get my agita up during the evisceration.


Put me and my miniscule donation in 3
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urkillnmesmalls

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #69 on: November 06, 2017, 12:06:53 pm »

Put me and my miniscule donation in 3

Camp 3 suggests that you don't care who comes in.  I care.  I don't want Les Miles, and I also don't want some "old school" coach who comes out of retirement to prove that you can still win with good hard nosed football.  I've seen enough stubborness for a lifetime in the past 5 years.   :D
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cjack

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #70 on: November 06, 2017, 08:42:54 pm »

Camp 3 suggests that you don't care who comes in.  I care.  I don't want Les Miles, and I also don't want some "old school" coach who comes out of retirement to prove that you can still win with good hard nosed football.  I've seen enough stubborness for a lifetime in the past 5 years.   :D

I did take number 3 to mean have us winning games again as part of the "fixing things". 

If I could choose, I would not choose Less or any other coach that is currently not coaching.  I would also not want a retread i.e. a coach just recently fired from somewhere else.  My preference is a young coach that looks at Arkansas as the best job he's ever had.

Having said all of that, I will take any coach and any style play that gets us back in the top 25 and at least a 500 record in the SEC.
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31to6

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #71 on: November 06, 2017, 08:53:50 pm »

My Facebook and Twitter feeds are consistent with opinions here on HV.
I talk to and listen to fans just like I am sure everyone else does. Of course very few of them are message board folks. These are not big boosters, but they are people who have ponied up enough cash for decent seats.

I go to the games with with my son so I am very careful to not initiate anything negative.

But I listen.

The people paying for tickets and devoting their Saturdays to the team are shaking their heads in wonder at what is going on.

They are not happy and they are frustrated with some of the perplexing decisions.  They do not understand why he is still the coach.
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Vantage 8 dude

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #72 on: November 06, 2017, 08:59:49 pm »

About as much as you...and 99% of everyone else. Get over yourself.
Oklahawg, not sure whether or not you realize it, however, HIM's snarky response means you've actually just received the highest compliment possible. Keep up the great work!! :) ;D
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Vantage 8 dude

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #73 on: November 06, 2017, 09:05:48 pm »

When I look back, it's kind of funny.  Once I accepted the hiring of BB, I had a theme, and was that he would have to get some difference makers to succeed.  Ala Russel Wilson type of situation.  BUT...and this is a little embarrassing, I suggested that even if he didn't manage that, we would be in great shape for whoever the next coach would be, because of his emphasis on the basics of building a team...THE TRENCHES. 

Yet here we are with that being what most view as our biggest deficiencies...and O-line that can't run or pass block well, and a D-line that can't get pressure.  So...even the fallback that I thought would leave us in good standing...poof city.   :(

That's really where I completely lost faith.  I don't want to hear a coach who has full control of recruiting making whiny comments about not being able to coach the guys he recruited to block people.  He should be embarrassed about ever having made that comment...while simultaneously bragging about our GPA and graduation rates.  That's bad math.
Don't be too embarrassed as I suspect you're by no means the only one. I'll confess that I too had some very high expectations and felt that based on what he had done at Wisconsin we at least had a coach that not only had coached at the highest D1 level, but had some success. We weren't having to rely on some "up and comer/hope they can make it at this level" hire. Unfortunately our hopes were never met. For whatever reason(s) CBB wasn't able to bring much to the table. Some say it was because it was really Alvarez; others say Bret just didn't fully realize what the SEC requires. I really don't know and at this point I don't care. He needs to be gone. Let's just hope that whoever we hire next it won't be another....hum......"pig in the poke".
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Hogs-n-Roses

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #74 on: November 06, 2017, 09:10:47 pm »

How do you know that the same people who screamed about the GOBN are now the same people wanting a good ole southern boy?

Answer - you don't.  You just make stuff up.  If you want to make a valid point, go back and find people who did what you just said they did.
I have to confess that I am one of those. I was always a Frank supporter.During the Nutt crisis, I was so aggravated at the "springdale 5" ordeal( I know one of the parents well) that I was extremely put out with the GOBN, the press or lack there of, the propaganda and false crap being spewed from the hill that I wanted them all gone. Be careful what you wish for.
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Pork Twain

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #75 on: November 06, 2017, 09:34:58 pm »

Mississippi State does it and appears to do it the right way. If they can do it, with a small fanbase, less money and NEVER having success in their history, there's ZERO reason we can't. No excuses.

Is that right?  Man the Miss St record takes me back to the good ole HDN days.  The major success that Arkansas has had in football was long before many of the posters here were born and very long before the college recruits were born.

2016 6-7 (3-5)
2015 9-4 (4-4)
2014 10-3 (6-2)
2013 7-6 (3-5)
2012 8-5 (4-4)
2011 7-6 (2-6)
2010 9-4 (4-4)
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Pork Twain

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #76 on: November 06, 2017, 09:38:30 pm »

How do you know that the same people who screamed about the GOBN are now the same people wanting a good ole southern boy?

Answer - you don't.  You just make stuff up.  If you want to make a valid point, go back and find people who did what you just said they did.
Answer - I know because I was here and witnessed it.    I have a very good memory and an eye for details. 

As far as people that will complain no matter who is in charge, this guy gets it.
As one very wise man once told me "People change, but not much."
« Last Edit: November 06, 2017, 09:53:15 pm by Pork Twain »
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bphi11ips

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #77 on: November 06, 2017, 10:33:31 pm »

I have to confess that I am one of those. I was always a Frank supporter.During the Nutt crisis, I was so aggravated at the "springdale 5" ordeal( I know one of the parents well) that I was extremely put out with the GOBN, the press or lack there of, the propaganda and false crap being spewed from the hill that I wanted them all gone. Be careful what you wish for.

In all seriousness, it doesn't matter who is in charge as long as he understands that he is only a steward of an institution that took over a century to build.  As a steward, he has the responsibility to educate himself on the traditions and values that sustained the institution entrusted to him. 

The athletic department is not a corporation.  It is the most highly visible representation of the university and, whether you like it or not, of Arkansas itself.  What do most people around the country think of when they hear the word Arkansas?  Razorbacks, Clintons and hillbillies - in that order.  Wal Mart, maybe.  Same as hillbillies. 

Like them or not, there are some pretty smart cookies in the GOBN, and they care about Arkansas. 
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Oklahawg

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #78 on: November 06, 2017, 10:36:41 pm »

Oklahawg, not sure whether or not you realize it, however, HIM's snarky response means you've actually just received the highest compliment possible. Keep up the great work!! :) ;D

Thanks, I think.

HiM has a knack of showing up when the water is murky and the forecast for storms. Kinda the opposite of a fair-weather fan. Kind of like the Auburn guys Lanny knows popping in at the worst possible time.

I think HiM is probably decent fellow who is might need me to see his body language or here sarcasm in his tone to appreciate his posts. I think he enjoys being poked at as much as enjoys doing the provoking. If not, I need to quit poking - no sense piling on.

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Oklahawg

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #79 on: November 06, 2017, 10:37:58 pm »

In all seriousness, it doesn't matter who is in charge as long as he understands that he is only a steward of an institution that took over a century to build.  As a steward, he has the responsibility to educate himself on the traditions and values that sustained the institution entrusted to him. 

The athletic department is not a corporation.  It is the most highly visible representation of the university and, whether you like it or not, of Arkansas itself.  What do most people around the country think of when they hear the word Arkansas?  Razorbacks, Clintons and hillbillies - in that order.  Wal Mart, maybe.  Same as hillbillies. 

Like them or not, there are some pretty smart cookies in the GOBN, and they care about Arkansas. 

Damn fine post.
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hogsanity

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #80 on: November 07, 2017, 09:09:36 am »

  As a steward, he has the responsibility to educate himself on the traditions and values that sustained the institution entrusted to him. 



And just what would those traditions and values be?
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KennyForAD

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #81 on: November 07, 2017, 11:19:53 am »

Some really great threads out there today.

Porked Tongue's "Pump the Brakes" and FANONTHEHILL's "It is NOT time to empty the stadium" come to mind.

I would contend that we are a fanbase enduring some sort of civil war over which of two narratives is going to rule the day. The retirement of Broyles handed us a need to work on the narrative thing. After all, for 50 years Broyles wrote the narrative for UA athletics. Since, we have seen two competing "UA 2.0" stories emerge.

One, is a throwback to the Broyles era. I suspect it is the narrative I would be most closely be associated with by posters on this board. The narrative includes references to what we used to be, how things used to be, the value of UA to our families and long-term friendships. The "back in the day" posts on HV help cement this sentimentality. It is powerful. It says that, "if we only remove things that are interfering we can have the return of the old UA athletics."

Two, is the postmodern version. It tells a story of the success UA is not enjoying, looks at other programs enjoying success, and laments. It is labeled "postmodern" because it has no rules. If something helps drive the story, use it. If not, toss it away. It values the nostalgic throwback - "UA was once on top of the football world, and there is no reason why it couldn't be today" - but only if useful. History only matters if it fits the story.

In some regards, the PM version has no history - Broyles is only out of the picture a few years, and the PM version is pretty comfortable abandoning Long as his replacement. We see this in calls for Long to be terminated (hey, might happen). We see this in denigrating posts about Long, Bielema, etc. The narrative, by definition, gets to pick and choose what successes are credited to UA. Any failure works against it.

The nostalgic narrative reminds us that UA won and won a lot, and won ethically. We didn't need to cheat. We could win with Arkansas recruits. It is convinced that this can be recaptured, romantically.

The postmodern narrative cares not about UA history, and only tells the story of what has happened, post-Broyles. And, it has written into its chapters a relentless disinterest in any peripheral facts that work against it. Exhibit A are the tireless efforts of posters to note that when we hired CBB it was the coup of the hiring cycle, and that its apparent failure is a puzzler. The PM version denies CBB his coaching history and any circumstances (note the wicked posts from folks who deny that Harleygate and Smile were damaging to UA football).

It creates two camps. Apologists make no bones about things like "players matter" and "UA is bigger than wins and losses." Cynics note that there is no reason for TCU, Baylor, Ole Miss, Virginia Tech, or NC State to be remotely successful if UA is not similarly successful. The debate that rages is an incommensurable one - two sides that cannot even agree on the language to use when disagreeing. It is like trying to have a dinner table conversation about pro-life/pro-choice or gun-rights/gun-control (both terms mentioned to note the divisions - that proponents of one fail to acknowledge even the most rudimentary elements of reason in the other position...not that both sides haven't replaced "facts" with opinions and "knowledge" with propaganda...alas, for the political forum not MMQB).

I don't know that there is a third path. Not without working at it. And, for better or worse, not without some sort of "going forward" moment.

I don't think that "going forward" happens without Long staying as AD. Part of the second narrative is that leadership no longer values winning. If leadership hires a coach who wins that gets squashed. I also don't think that happens with CBB staying as coach ... short of a big 10-win season next year and the likely defeat of Bama, Auburn, or A&M (and likely two of the three).  That is a tall order.

For those too restless or strapped for time and attention who will whine about the length of the post, I get it.

So here is the summary version - a big chunk of UA fans are romantics, remembering fondly a day when simple wins were not the only driving force for feeling good about UA sports. Another chunk of UA fans are cynics, rejecting the nostalgic view of UA that involves far more than mere wins and losses. The former want to win with class and dignity, but also sing the alma mater and find the names of loved ones on senior walk. The latter may enjoy those things, but not enough to let go of winning.

The former are conflicted because they respect what Bielema stands for, and how he runs the program. Except for the winning part. The latter are laser-focused - they would hire the incarnation of Jerry Sandusky if they thought Coach Sandusky could beat Alabama next year.

The former adhere to a story of UA that is decades long, and may span many generations in their family. The latter can barely tolerate a coach getting three years (and had no problem when Florida cut ties with its coach last week) to win. These are totally different stories of fandom. They are not very compatible, but we sure argue like they are.

Maybe the next coach wins enough to satisfy the group of cynics. Maybe the next coach wins with the same class that Bielema seems to project about his program. Maybe we don't have to throw out everything to support the team.

Doubt it, but it is possible that a third story takes root in the coming weeks and in a decade one of you will revive this thread and we'll laugh about where we are right now. Maybe, even, I can be proud that I posted about it.

Wow.  That's like a work of art, man.  How long did it take to write that?  Awesome.
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Oklahawg

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #82 on: November 07, 2017, 03:24:07 pm »

Wow.  That's like a work of art, man.  How long did it take to write that?  Awesome.

Too long, if you read my critics. ;)

I posted above( in response to a criticism) and will again: humans have a couple of genetic dispositions (science is beginning to think that way, anyway, and that is the final vote of confidence for me) that are at play: humans communicate in story form and have a tendency to find patterns, even in places where patterns don't exist. So, the OP was about two things: (1) what are the stories that are competing for the right to drive the future of UA athletics, and (2) are there patterns to fans' responses to the crisis with football (if it is a crisis...that is part of the story thingy)?

Thanks for reading.
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