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Author Topic: Two Narratives  (Read 2774 times)

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Oklahawg

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Two Narratives
« on: November 05, 2017, 11:13:34 pm »

Some really great threads out there today.

Porked Tongue's "Pump the Brakes" and FANONTHEHILL's "It is NOT time to empty the stadium" come to mind.

I would contend that we are a fanbase enduring some sort of civil war over which of two narratives is going to rule the day. The retirement of Broyles handed us a need to work on the narrative thing. After all, for 50 years Broyles wrote the narrative for UA athletics. Since, we have seen two competing "UA 2.0" stories emerge.

One, is a throwback to the Broyles era. I suspect it is the narrative I would be most closely be associated with by posters on this board. The narrative includes references to what we used to be, how things used to be, the value of UA to our families and long-term friendships. The "back in the day" posts on HV help cement this sentimentality. It is powerful. It says that, "if we only remove things that are interfering we can have the return of the old UA athletics."

Two, is the postmodern version. It tells a story of the success UA is not enjoying, looks at other programs enjoying success, and laments. It is labeled "postmodern" because it has no rules. If something helps drive the story, use it. If not, toss it away. It values the nostalgic throwback - "UA was once on top of the football world, and there is no reason why it couldn't be today" - but only if useful. History only matters if it fits the story.

In some regards, the PM version has no history - Broyles is only out of the picture a few years, and the PM version is pretty comfortable abandoning Long as his replacement. We see this in calls for Long to be terminated (hey, might happen). We see this in denigrating posts about Long, Bielema, etc. The narrative, by definition, gets to pick and choose what successes are credited to UA. Any failure works against it.

The nostalgic narrative reminds us that UA won and won a lot, and won ethically. We didn't need to cheat. We could win with Arkansas recruits. It is convinced that this can be recaptured, romantically.

The postmodern narrative cares not about UA history, and only tells the story of what has happened, post-Broyles. And, it has written into its chapters a relentless disinterest in any peripheral facts that work against it. Exhibit A are the tireless efforts of posters to note that when we hired CBB it was the coup of the hiring cycle, and that its apparent failure is a puzzler. The PM version denies CBB his coaching history and any circumstances (note the wicked posts from folks who deny that Harleygate and Smile were damaging to UA football).

It creates two camps. Apologists make no bones about things like "players matter" and "UA is bigger than wins and losses." Cynics note that there is no reason for TCU, Baylor, Ole Miss, Virginia Tech, or NC State to be remotely successful if UA is not similarly successful. The debate that rages is an incommensurable one - two sides that cannot even agree on the language to use when disagreeing. It is like trying to have a dinner table conversation about pro-life/pro-choice or gun-rights/gun-control (both terms mentioned to note the divisions - that proponents of one fail to acknowledge even the most rudimentary elements of reason in the other position...not that both sides haven't replaced "facts" with opinions and "knowledge" with propaganda...alas, for the political forum not MMQB).

I don't know that there is a third path. Not without working at it. And, for better or worse, not without some sort of "going forward" moment.

I don't think that "going forward" happens without Long staying as AD. Part of the second narrative is that leadership no longer values winning. If leadership hires a coach who wins that gets squashed. I also don't think that happens with CBB staying as coach ... short of a big 10-win season next year and the likely defeat of Bama, Auburn, or A&M (and likely two of the three).  That is a tall order.

For those too restless or strapped for time and attention who will whine about the length of the post, I get it.

So here is the summary version - a big chunk of UA fans are romantics, remembering fondly a day when simple wins were not the only driving force for feeling good about UA sports. Another chunk of UA fans are cynics, rejecting the nostalgic view of UA that involves far more than mere wins and losses. The former want to win with class and dignity, but also sing the alma mater and find the names of loved ones on senior walk. The latter may enjoy those things, but not enough to let go of winning.

The former are conflicted because they respect what Bielema stands for, and how he runs the program. Except for the winning part. The latter are laser-focused - they would hire the incarnation of Jerry Sandusky if they thought Coach Sandusky could beat Alabama next year.

The former adhere to a story of UA that is decades long, and may span many generations in their family. The latter can barely tolerate a coach getting three years (and had no problem when Florida cut ties with its coach last week) to win. These are totally different stories of fandom. They are not very compatible, but we sure argue like they are.

Maybe the next coach wins enough to satisfy the group of cynics. Maybe the next coach wins with the same class that Bielema seems to project about his program. Maybe we don't have to throw out everything to support the team.

Doubt it, but it is possible that a third story takes root in the coming weeks and in a decade one of you will revive this thread and we'll laugh about where we are right now. Maybe, even, I can be proud that I posted about it.
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BannerMountainMan

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2017, 11:25:22 pm »

Did you say a possible 10 win season  next year with Bert??
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Oklahawg

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2017, 11:30:29 pm »

Did you say a possible 10 win season  next year with Bert??

Trying to make it interesting! Yeah, I don't see that either.
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urkillnmesmalls

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2017, 11:38:59 pm »

Remember....unless you win the NC, there is always room to complain.   ;D   I don't think you could get anywhere near a consensus on what is an acceptable consistent win total for the UA anymore. 

Sadly, I think things might be worse than they seem.  My fear is that we saw Bobby Petrino come into a the perfect storm, and his style meshed perfectly with the talent that Arkansas was producing.  I think it could be argued that we saw the absolute best that Arkansas could be in 2010 and 2011.  Why?  Because if you look at the recruiting rankings, and who is making the playoff and/or winning the NC every year, it's eye opening.  Only a select few schools are even capable...if you subscribe to what history shows. 

So, now we know we need to be top 10 in recruiting.  So...when we bring in a new coach and that doesn't happen, do the fans alter their hopes?  If by some chance we jump up into that top ten, what type of scruitiny would that bring?  "How did the UA do THAT after being a 25-30 school?"  We JUST saw what happens when things seem "too good to be true" at Ole Miss right? 

I know this...we're not winning nearly enough for what we're paying our coaches, and what we have invested in facilities.  What will we accept?  I don't know...I really don't.  I hear, "8 wins and a good bowl most years, and occasionally 10 wins and competing for the SECC."  I guess we'll see... 
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ZERO

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2017, 11:41:20 pm »

Do you not think a lot of reasonable people fall fairly evenly between the two camps? The very loud and vocal Hogville lunatic fringe we deal with daily are not exactly representative of how most Hog fans feel and behave.
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jimmiewkersh

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2017, 11:41:45 pm »

Oklahog, I have always been the nostalgia hog fan.  I have called the Hogs since november 2, 1964.  I stayed up late listening to the game on the radio or watching on TV if we were lucky enough to be on that week.  That was until until I watched the end of the Nutt era and the meddling of Broyles in the hiring decisions.  I had my rose colored glasses ripped off during that debacle.  That is when I came to realize college sports was not about cheering for your favorite team, but it was a money making venture for the University.  Now, while I may still be nostalgic, I am becoming more and more cynical and could almost care less about the football program any longer.  I am not looking for a new team, just giving up on caring after 53 years.
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snoblind

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2017, 11:54:15 pm »

Do you not think a lot of reasonable people fall fairly evenly between the two camps? The very loud and vocal Hogville lunatic fringe we deal with daily are not exactly representative of how most Hog fans feel and behave.

Yes.  I'd say many, if not most fans share characteristics of both groups.  But trying to boil it down to only 2 groups is too simplistic.
   
IIRC, OP is a supporter of Jeff Long and thinks Long is doing an excellent job.  So he misses a critical element when analyzing the problem.
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snoblind

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2017, 12:04:14 am »

Oklahog, I have always been the nostalgia hog fan.  I have called the Hogs since november 2, 1964.  I stayed up late listening to the game on the radio or watching on TV if we were lucky enough to be on that week.  That was until until I watched the end of the Nutt era and the meddling of Broyles in the hiring decisions.  I had my rose colored glasses ripped off during that debacle.  That is when I came to realize college sports was not about cheering for your favorite team, but it was a money making venture for the University.  Now, while I may still be nostalgic, I am becoming more and more cynical and could almost care less about the football program any longer.  I am not looking for a new team, just giving up on caring after 53 years.

I am curious.  I assume you are referring to "the end of the Nutt era and the meddling of Broyles in the hiring decisions" as 2 different things?
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synthartist69

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2017, 12:33:29 am »

I would be happy if we could have a program like Oklahoma or even Oklahoma state. Is that asking too much. Maybe we need to be out of the SEC if we want to win.
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31to6

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2017, 12:47:08 am »

I would be happy if we could have a program like Oklahoma or even Oklahoma state. Is that asking too much. Maybe we need to be out of the SEC if we want to win.
Oklahoma? Yes. LOL. You can't invent 100 years of history out of thin air.

Okie State? No. You are right here. There is no reason at all that we cannot be as successful as the 'pokes.
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bondhue

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2017, 02:00:00 am »

Postmodernism is nihilism and is a logical result of the belief that all there is is matter in motion.  Hobbes worked it all out for us in Leviathan, though he could not be very blunt because of censorship laws at the time that might have resulted in his execution.   He did write that to believe in a non material spirit that was movable from place to place was a form of insanity.  In other words death is the end.   He also showed that we all end up as slaves in a purely materialist universe.  In a purely material universe, as Nietzsche wrote, there are no thou shalts and thou shalt nots, because God is dead.  God is dead because we realized that God did not create us, we created God.  When we realized that we created God we could no longer believe in God.  The problem is, we can't seem to let those thou shalt nots go, because society would collapse.

I understand postmodernism and its political form, progressivism.  I subscribe to neither.  I believe that there is something, and especially that there are self evident truths, just as Plato and Jefferson, and Lincoln did.  We hold these truths to be self evident.

This issue with the Razorback program is not like trying to understand a nihilist like Camus and his nonsense where every attribute of a thing is accidental, therefore destroying the possibility of any such thing as the common noun.

This football issue is simple.  Bret is not getting it done.  Jeff Long is not doing much better.  He hired 3 coaches that will each have left the football program in tatters.  The record in the SEC under his administration is 27-37 if my math is correct.  The Razorbacks are not a mid tier SEC team since 2009.  We need a change.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2017, 02:12:45 am by bondhue »
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Pork Twain

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2017, 02:25:05 am »

As always, great post Okla.  I think the one thing that many of the PM group really wish we would all forget is how much they complained about the GOBN, MSM, HDN and JFB but now they complain about wanting a good ole Arkansas boy to lead Arkansas.  One thing I have noticed over my thousands of posts on Hogville, is that many only seem happy when they are either complaining or trolling and that is too bad.  I used to get sucked in by those guys, now I either antagonize them, throw a few facts at them that they continually refuse to see or just ignore them.
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RexMentor

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2017, 05:50:28 am »

When Frank Broyles was AD, he RAN the program.
Jeff Long, as AD, is MANAGING the program.
Running the program means that sometimes decisions are made quickly. Pulling Jack Crowe off the plane and making an assistant the head coach and later firing him after one loss. Long would have done neither.
Managing the program means decisions are made after a consensus is reached and everybody is on the same page. Giving Bret a full six years and if not, the reasons have to be obvious to everyone involved and not announcing anything until after the season. If Broyles were the AD, we'd likely had a new coach this year.
Managing the program means you give CBP a suspension while reviewing the situation even though you know he lied to you. Running the program means CBP is fired two minutes after the police report is released.
Frank believed he didn't have to answer to anyone.
Long knows he does answer to those above him.
Both approaches have their weak and strong points. Not saying which is better. Just an observation.

BTW: Excellent Okla.
 
« Last Edit: November 06, 2017, 06:11:23 am by RexMentor »
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jimmiewkersh

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2017, 06:27:41 am »

I am curious.  I assume you are referring to "the end of the Nutt era and the meddling of Broyles in the hiring decisions" as 2 different things?
Snoblind, The NUTT era was brought to a rapid end because Broyles forced a marriage between Nutt and Gus.  It was a forced marriage doomed to fail.  You can blame Nutt or Gus, but the real problem was Broyles not wanting to fire Nutt and forcing an offensive coordinator on him that neither respected.
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hoghearted

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2017, 06:37:33 am »

Looks to me like it's just the same old argument. If you support Long and Bielema, you are the ones with integrity, who care about the players, and doing things the right way.

If you don't, you are expecting too much, clamoring for 10+ wins per year, even if you have to cheat to do it, don't value the student-athlete, a 'Petrino lover', etc.

It's a tired argument, and too simplistic.
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Boss Hog in the Arkansas

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2017, 07:00:14 am »

Some really great threads out there today.

Porked Tongue's "Pump the Brakes" and FANONTHEHILL's "It is NOT time to empty the stadium" come to mind.

I would contend that we are a fanbase enduring some sort of civil war over which of two narratives is going to rule the day. The retirement of Broyles handed us a need to work on the narrative thing. After all, for 50 years Broyles wrote the narrative for UA athletics. Since, we have seen two competing "UA 2.0" stories emerge.

One, is a throwback to the Broyles era. I suspect it is the narrative I would be most closely be associated with by posters on this board. The narrative includes references to what we used to be, how things used to be, the value of UA to our families and long-term friendships. The "back in the day" posts on HV help cement this sentimentality. It is powerful. It says that, "if we only remove things that are interfering we can have the return of the old UA athletics."

Two, is the postmodern version. It tells a story of the success UA is not enjoying, looks at other programs enjoying success, and laments. It is labeled "postmodern" because it has no rules. If something helps drive the story, use it. If not, toss it away. It values the nostalgic throwback - "UA was once on top of the football world, and there is no reason why it couldn't be today" - but only if useful. History only matters if it fits the story.

In some regards, the PM version has no history - Broyles is only out of the picture a few years, and the PM version is pretty comfortable abandoning Long as his replacement. We see this in calls for Long to be terminated (hey, might happen). We see this in denigrating posts about Long, Bielema, etc. The narrative, by definition, gets to pick and choose what successes are credited to UA. Any failure works against it.

The nostalgic narrative reminds us that UA won and won a lot, and won ethically. We didn't need to cheat. We could win with Arkansas recruits. It is convinced that this can be recaptured, romantically.

The postmodern narrative cares not about UA history, and only tells the story of what has happened, post-Broyles. And, it has written into its chapters a relentless disinterest in any peripheral facts that work against it. Exhibit A are the tireless efforts of posters to note that when we hired CBB it was the coup of the hiring cycle, and that its apparent failure is a puzzler. The PM version denies CBB his coaching history and any circumstances (note the wicked posts from folks who deny that Harleygate and Smile were damaging to UA football).

It creates two camps. Apologists make no bones about things like "players matter" and "UA is bigger than wins and losses." Cynics note that there is no reason for TCU, Baylor, Ole Miss, Virginia Tech, or NC State to be remotely successful if UA is not similarly successful. The debate that rages is an incommensurable one - two sides that cannot even agree on the language to use when disagreeing. It is like trying to have a dinner table conversation about pro-life/pro-choice or gun-rights/gun-control (both terms mentioned to note the divisions - that proponents of one fail to acknowledge even the most rudimentary elements of reason in the other position...not that both sides haven't replaced "facts" with opinions and "knowledge" with propaganda...alas, for the political forum not MMQB).

I don't know that there is a third path. Not without working at it. And, for better or worse, not without some sort of "going forward" moment.

I don't think that "going forward" happens without Long staying as AD. Part of the second narrative is that leadership no longer values winning. If leadership hires a coach who wins that gets squashed. I also don't think that happens with CBB staying as coach ... short of a big 10-win season next year and the likely defeat of Bama, Auburn, or A&M (and likely two of the three).  That is a tall order.

For those too restless or strapped for time and attention who will whine about the length of the post, I get it.

So here is the summary version - a big chunk of UA fans are romantics, remembering fondly a day when simple wins were not the only driving force for feeling good about UA sports. Another chunk of UA fans are cynics, rejecting the nostalgic view of UA that involves far more than mere wins and losses. The former want to win with class and dignity, but also sing the alma mater and find the names of loved ones on senior walk. The latter may enjoy those things, but not enough to let go of winning.

The former are conflicted because they respect what Bielema stands for, and how he runs the program. Except for the winning part. The latter are laser-focused - they would hire the incarnation of Jerry Sandusky if they thought Coach Sandusky could beat Alabama next year.

The former adhere to a story of UA that is decades long, and may span many generations in their family. The latter can barely tolerate a coach getting three years (and had no problem when Florida cut ties with its coach last week) to win. These are totally different stories of fandom. They are not very compatible, but we sure argue like they are.

Maybe the next coach wins enough to satisfy the group of cynics. Maybe the next coach wins with the same class that Bielema seems to project about his program. Maybe we don't have to throw out everything to support the team.

Doubt it, but it is possible that a third story takes root in the coming weeks and in a decade one of you will revive this thread and we'll laugh about where we are right now. Maybe, even, I can be proud that I posted about it.
That one sentence shows where we are right now. A fanbase in a civil war. The only way the 2 sides are annexed is by cleaning house and starting fresh. We need a new coach, new philosophies, and new hope
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farmhawg

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2017, 07:05:02 am »

Not even close to being correct but itís your opinion. Civil war?! Really? I guess for the 15 people that like to have a crappy team......
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Boss Hog in the Arkansas

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2017, 07:29:52 am »

Not even close to being correct but itís your opinion. Civil war?! Really? I guess for the 15 people that like to have a crappy team......
Surprisingly there are quite a few that still want to give bielema some time....for whatever reason
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rhog1

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2017, 07:33:05 am »

I don't really see this as correct. I think most of us Hog fans want the same thing. We want our program run with class and to win 8+ games a year with a shot at winning the SEC at least once every 5 years or so.
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dpetty121263

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2017, 07:40:25 am »

What Frank Broyles built in Fayettenam was in its time a huge legacy in a very backwards State was nothing short of a miracle. Love or Hate Frank Broyles  he was nothing but determined and bullheaded, he made many mistakes by running off great coaches because he was King of the Hill and could do as he liked right or wrong. His management style was based in the 1930's, his ideas were based in the 1930's and in fact hamstrung the Football program in many respects as the Football world passed him by and yet he was to set in his ways to change...Now in 2017 the Razorbacks are struggling to compete in a SEC world that is light years different when the Razorbacks moved into the SEC yet the ideas that Frank built the program on are still in full force...I see a Civil war coming...maybe its time to throw off the old and bring in the new...
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Danny J

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2017, 07:44:04 am »

Looks to me like it's just the same old argument. If you support Long and Bielema, you are the ones with integrity, who care about the players, and doing things the right way.

If you don't, you are expecting too much, clamoring for 10+ wins per year, even if you have to cheat to do it, don't value the student-athlete, a 'Petrino lover', etc.

It's a tired argument, and too simplistic.
This ^^^
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jkstock04

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2017, 07:52:31 am »

Looks to me like it's just the same old argument. If you support Long and Bielema, you are the ones with integrity, who care about the players, and doing things the right way.

If you don't, you are expecting too much, clamoring for 10+ wins per year, even if you have to cheat to do it, don't value the student-athlete, a 'Petrino lover', etc.

It's a tired argument, and too simplistic.
Pretty much in a nutshell. The Sandusky comment says it all about the way these people think. If you have any winning expectations you are completely fine with a serial pedaphile running the program or as coach.
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ricepig

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2017, 07:58:52 am »

Looks to me like it's just the same old argument. If you support Long and Bielema, you are the ones with integrity, who care about the players, and doing things the right way.

If you don't, you are expecting too much, clamoring for 10+ wins per year, even if you have to cheat to do it, don't value the student-athlete, a 'Petrino lover', etc.

It's a tired argument, and too simplistic.
There's a medium, but those that clamored about the "Winning at all cost" took it saying beyond it's meaning, which was we will play by the rules, seemed simple to me.
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Oklahawg

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2017, 08:09:42 am »

As always, great post Okla.  I think the one thing that many of the PM group really wish we would all forget is how much they complained about the GOBN, MSM, HDN and JFB but now they complain about wanting a good ole Arkansas boy to lead Arkansas.  One thing I have noticed over my thousands of posts on Hogville, is that many only seem happy when they are either complaining or trolling and that is too bad.  I used to get sucked in by those guys, now I either antagonize them, throw a few facts at them that they continually refuse to see or just ignore them.

Yes!

Great post.
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Lady Razorback

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2017, 08:11:33 am »

Great analysis, Okla.  For those PM believers, I think we hear this refrain of leaving the SEC, we are little ole Arkansas and we can't compete at that level.  I'm not certain I understand what the PM view of the future is exactly.  I don't understand what their definition of a successful program is. 
Without a professional team in Arkansas, the Razorbacks have long enjoyed a fairly unified fanbase.  Joining the SEC provided the Razorbacks program with a secure financial future.  Financing the construction of the stadium expansion requires that we have a secure financial future and getting out of the SEC with its shared revenue structure makes absolutely no sense.  To me, then, that means we must find a way to win in this conference and maintain our revenue stream.  Long has done a good job on that front.  I think you have to keep Long to even hire a decent coach because most coaches worth their weight won't come to a program completely in upheaval.  Long can be dealt with at some point in the future.  Coaching must be changed now to move toward a team that is successful to ensure fans buying season tickets, donating money to Foundation and buying merchandise.  That's how fans voice their opinion.  Empty seats on Saturday and Auburn game spoke volumes to decision makers.  They must have fans at games. 
CBB has failed in a number of areas that ensure financial security.  Yes, players are going to class, better grades, and fewer behavior issues.  But those areas have zero impact to the regular fan which in turn does not impact nor secure revenue streams.  Given the level of debt with the new bonds, I feel the sense of urgency to shore up this part of the equation.  NOW.
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Oklahawg

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2017, 08:11:51 am »

Do you not think a lot of reasonable people fall fairly evenly between the two camps? The very loud and vocal Hogville lunatic fringe we deal with daily are not exactly representative of how most Hog fans feel and behave.

Yes, I agree. But, these are the two primary camps that shape things. Kinda like most folks are some sort of political hodge-podge but wind up being a democrat or republican just because those are the two main options.  It would seem the hope for a third path as a fan is as tough as finding a third path as an engaged citizen. (apologies again for the political metaphor - it is not intended to derail things)
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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2017, 08:16:53 am »

Great analysis, Okla.  For those PM believers, I think we hear this refrain of leaving the SEC, we are little ole Arkansas and we can't compete at that level.  I'm not certain I understand what the PM view of the future is exactly.  I don't understand what their definition of a successful program is. 
Without a professional team in Arkansas, the Razorbacks have long enjoyed a fairly unified fanbase.  Joining the SEC provided the Razorbacks program with a secure financial future.  Financing the construction of the stadium expansion requires that we have a secure financial future and getting out of the SEC with its shared revenue structure makes absolutely no sense.  To me, then, that means we must find a way to win in this conference and maintain our revenue stream.  Long has done a good job on that front.  I think you have to keep Long to even hire a decent coach because most coaches worth their weight won't come to a program completely in upheaval.  Long can be dealt with at some point in the future.  Coaching must be changed now to move toward a team that is successful to ensure fans buying season tickets, donating money to Foundation and buying merchandise.  That's how fans voice their opinion.  Empty seats on Saturday and Auburn game spoke volumes to decision makers.  They must have fans at games. 
CBB has failed in a number of areas that ensure financial security.  Yes, players are going to class, better grades, and fewer behavior issues.  But those areas have zero impact to the regular fan which in turn does not impact nor secure revenue streams.  Given the level of debt with the new bonds, I feel the sense of urgency to shore up this part of the equation.  NOW.

Despite the really solid critique of what "postmodern" might mean, there are many definitions of "postmodern." I used it simply to note that it reacts opposite of the tradition of UA sports established by Broyles. But, embedded in the reason I borrowed the term is the notion that you can just discard things that don't work, create a seemingly illogical collage of "values" as your story.

I agree, in part, with your idea that there isn't a vision for the future of the PM fan. At some point, a vision is not the negative - what it is not.

Wilsonhog had a great thread a few days ago about what fans might want to witness in a new hire (without naming names). One of characteristics that stood out to me: a coach who is "known" for a system. Saban and his defense. Meyer and his offense. Anyway, that is a positive way to approach it but that doesn't happen, usually run over by love for a particular coach.

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Oklahawg

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2017, 08:18:10 am »

Maybe I should have put this in the opening spiel: the use of "narrative" implies that the story is bigger than one coach, one AD, etc. It is designed to operate for a long, long time. When the attempt at a new, post-Broyles story falters you suddenly have NO story.

That reality - no story - may be the crisis.
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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2017, 08:18:50 am »

I don't really see this as correct. I think most of us Hog fans want the same thing. We want our program run with class and to win 8+ games a year with a shot at winning the SEC at least once every 5 years or so.
Mississippi State does it and appears to do it the right way. If they can do it, with a small fanbase, less money and NEVER having success in their history, there's ZERO reason we can't. No excuses.
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HoginMemphis

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2017, 08:21:28 am »

Who is doing the narration of these two narratives? That was long. I lost interest before I made it to the end.

There is no fan war going on other than here on Hogville, per usual. 90% of the fanbase doesn't comment on or read any internet bulletin board.

Was with a Razorback fan from Memphis this week at the Little Red. He is not aware of Hogville or any other online board. He thinks the record of Bielema speaks for itself and believes it is time to move on from Bielema. He also said that he has no confidence in Long picking the next head coach. Pretty simple. Record speaks for itself and how could any Hog fan think Bielema or Long deserve more time in their current jobs.
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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2017, 08:30:47 am »

This post embodies what is wrong with our country today. Everything must be labeled and categorized. Everyone must fit into one group or another. It's complete bull. My beliefs and decisions I make based on those beliefs are formed by a lifetime of unique experiences. Nobody has the same experiences so their decisions will never be the same as someone else 100% of the time. Stop categorizing people into groups.
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HoginMemphis

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2017, 08:34:34 am »

This post embodies what is wrong with our country today. Everything must be labeled and categorized. Everyone must fit into one group or another. It's complete bull. My beliefs and decisions I make based on those beliefs are formed by a lifetime of unique experiences. Nobody has the same experiences so their decisions will never be the same as someone else 100% of the time. Stop categorizing people into groups.
Totally agree.
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DeltaBoy

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2017, 08:37:56 am »

Where ever you fall in this spectrum nothing will change until Bret ,or Jeff Long are one or both gonel
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GuvHog

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2017, 08:39:31 am »

Some really great threads out there today.

Porked Tongue's "Pump the Brakes" and FANONTHEHILL's "It is NOT time to empty the stadium" come to mind.

I would contend that we are a fanbase enduring some sort of civil war over which of two narratives is going to rule the day. The retirement of Broyles handed us a need to work on the narrative thing. After all, for 50 years Broyles wrote the narrative for UA athletics. Since, we have seen two competing "UA 2.0" stories emerge.

One, is a throwback to the Broyles era. I suspect it is the narrative I would be most closely be associated with by posters on this board. The narrative includes references to what we used to be, how things used to be, the value of UA to our families and long-term friendships. The "back in the day" posts on HV help cement this sentimentality. It is powerful. It says that, "if we only remove things that are interfering we can have the return of the old UA athletics."

Two, is the postmodern version. It tells a story of the success UA is not enjoying, looks at other programs enjoying success, and laments. It is labeled "postmodern" because it has no rules. If something helps drive the story, use it. If not, toss it away. It values the nostalgic throwback - "UA was once on top of the football world, and there is no reason why it couldn't be today" - but only if useful. History only matters if it fits the story.

In some regards, the PM version has no history - Broyles is only out of the picture a few years, and the PM version is pretty comfortable abandoning Long as his replacement. We see this in calls for Long to be terminated (hey, might happen). We see this in denigrating posts about Long, Bielema, etc. The narrative, by definition, gets to pick and choose what successes are credited to UA. Any failure works against it.

The nostalgic narrative reminds us that UA won and won a lot, and won ethically. We didn't need to cheat. We could win with Arkansas recruits. It is convinced that this can be recaptured, romantically.

The postmodern narrative cares not about UA history, and only tells the story of what has happened, post-Broyles. And, it has written into its chapters a relentless disinterest in any peripheral facts that work against it. Exhibit A are the tireless efforts of posters to note that when we hired CBB it was the coup of the hiring cycle, and that its apparent failure is a puzzler. The PM version denies CBB his coaching history and any circumstances (note the wicked posts from folks who deny that Harleygate and Smile were damaging to UA football).

It creates two camps. Apologists make no bones about things like "players matter" and "UA is bigger than wins and losses." Cynics note that there is no reason for TCU, Baylor, Ole Miss, Virginia Tech, or NC State to be remotely successful if UA is not similarly successful. The debate that rages is an incommensurable one - two sides that cannot even agree on the language to use when disagreeing. It is like trying to have a dinner table conversation about pro-life/pro-choice or gun-rights/gun-control (both terms mentioned to note the divisions - that proponents of one fail to acknowledge even the most rudimentary elements of reason in the other position...not that both sides haven't replaced "facts" with opinions and "knowledge" with propaganda...alas, for the political forum not MMQB).

I don't know that there is a third path. Not without working at it. And, for better or worse, not without some sort of "going forward" moment.

I don't think that "going forward" happens without Long staying as AD. Part of the second narrative is that leadership no longer values winning. If leadership hires a coach who wins that gets squashed. I also don't think that happens with CBB staying as coach ... short of a big 10-win season next year and the likely defeat of Bama, Auburn, or A&M (and likely two of the three).  That is a tall order.

For those too restless or strapped for time and attention who will whine about the length of the post, I get it.

So here is the summary version - a big chunk of UA fans are romantics, remembering fondly a day when simple wins were not the only driving force for feeling good about UA sports. Another chunk of UA fans are cynics, rejecting the nostalgic view of UA that involves far more than mere wins and losses. The former want to win with class and dignity, but also sing the alma mater and find the names of loved ones on senior walk. The latter may enjoy those things, but not enough to let go of winning.

The former are conflicted because they respect what Bielema stands for, and how he runs the program. Except for the winning part. The latter are laser-focused - they would hire the incarnation of Jerry Sandusky if they thought Coach Sandusky could beat Alabama next year.

The former adhere to a story of UA that is decades long, and may span many generations in their family. The latter can barely tolerate a coach getting three years (and had no problem when Florida cut ties with its coach last week) to win. These are totally different stories of fandom. They are not very compatible, but we sure argue like they are.

Maybe the next coach wins enough to satisfy the group of cynics. Maybe the next coach wins with the same class that Bielema seems to project about his program. Maybe we don't have to throw out everything to support the team.

Doubt it, but it is possible that a third story takes root in the coming weeks and in a decade one of you will revive this thread and we'll laugh about where we are right now. Maybe, even, I can be proud that I posted about it.

It is my honest belief, after reading many posts, that most of us are in neither camp. I believe most of us really like the fact that the U of A is running a clean program and the players are doing well in the classroom. That's a really good thing and it should continue but it isn't enough. This should be a winning program too and in 2010 and 2011, we saw both happen. The program was a winning program and was also a clean program not in danger of an NCAA investigation.

In a successful program, Integrity and winning go hand in hand. When either one is placed above the other, it will eventually destroy the program. When Jeff Long became the U of A Athletic Director, he immediately put integrity above winning and that has destroyed the football program. By the same token, If Jeff leaves or is terminated and the new AD places winning above integrity, he will destroy the football program too. It is possible to run a program with integrity and be a winning program at the same time but it isn't possible as long as Jeff Long and Bret Bielema remain at the U of A as AD and HC. They both need to go. I have no anger or hate in my heart for either man, just sadness. I'm saddened that things have gotten so bad that the only way to salvage what is left is to move in a different direction when it comes to Athletic department leadership and Football program leadership.
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Mr Jade

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2017, 09:11:17 am »

Surprisingly there are quite a few that still want to give bielema some time....for whatever reason

Talked to my employee today. Said CBB fully justified his pay by winning since "we didn't practice for it and we are just fine. We are competing in the SEC and are just fine." He's a former player recruited by CBB. There are plenty of people that still want CBB here.
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hogsanity

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2017, 09:31:00 am »

As always, great post Okla.  I think the one thing that many of the PM group really wish we would all forget is how much they complained about the GOBN, MSM, HDN and JFB but now they complain about wanting a good ole Arkansas boy to lead Arkansas. 


This is the one thing I was thinking about too. They screamed about how the GOBN had to go, and now they scream about " we need a good ole southern boy, a Arkansas guy, someone who understands Arkansas " when they wanted all those very types run off less than a decade ago.
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bphi11ips

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2017, 09:39:06 am »

This is the one thing I was thinking about too. They screamed about how the GOBN had to go, and now they scream about " we need a good ole southern boy, a Arkansas guy, someone who understands Arkansas " when they wanted all those very types run off less than a decade ago.

How do you know that the same people who screamed about the GOBN are now the same people wanting a good ole southern boy?

Answer - you don't.  You just make stuff up.  If you want to make a valid point, go back and find people who did what you just said they did.
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wachhog

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2017, 09:44:21 am »

Back in the days when I was on the hill, coaches werenít paid salaries that were so outsized compared to other university officials. When you get paid outsized salaries, people expect outsized results. Canít cut it? No sympathy. Goodbye. Coaches at most schools have become mercenaries. There are still a few exceptions. Bielema isnít one of them as he showed Wisconsin.
So, if weíre hiring mercenaries, why shouldnít they be treated as such?
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HoginMemphis

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #38 on: November 06, 2017, 09:44:53 am »

Back in the days when I was on the hill, coaches werenít paid salaries that were so outsized compared to other university officials. When you get paid outsized salaries, people expect outsized results. Canít cut it? No sympathy. Goodbye. Coaches at most schools have become mercenaries. There are still a few exceptions. Bielema isnít one of them as he showed Wisconsin.
So, if weíre hiring mercenaries, why shouldnít they be treated as such?
+++
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hogsanity

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #39 on: November 06, 2017, 09:44:59 am »

How do you know that the same people who screamed about the GOBN are now the same people wanting a good ole southern boy?

Answer - you don't.  You just make stuff up.  If you want to make a valid point, go back and find people who did what you just said they did.

You have been here long enough to know this is exacctly the case. Guys like Guv, Ironhog, Eastex, among others wanted the GOBN dismantled, and now post about needing a good old southern biy to come save the program.

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bphi11ips

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #40 on: November 06, 2017, 09:47:34 am »

There is no nostalgia or romanticism in recognizing changes over time, questioning whether those changes are positive or negative, analyzing the reasons for change, and suggesting fixes. 

"Although there is no progress without change, not all change is progress."

- John Wooden

Arkansas does not need rebranding.  Arkansas needs to figure out what made it great to begin with.  The answer is pretty simple.  All we need is a child to shout out that the emperor is not wearing any clothes.
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Seebs

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #41 on: November 06, 2017, 09:51:47 am »

There are three camps -
1. Good ole boys that want it like it will never be again.
2. Helicopter fans - that want what is best for the kids and want to nurture they boo boos and shield them from negativity
3. Apathy fans - Folks that do not care who comes in but want this mess fixed regardless of who it is but want them in there yesterday.

I fall in category three.  I will look at the final score of LSU and not get my agita up during the evisceration.
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bphi11ips

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #42 on: November 06, 2017, 09:53:46 am »

You have been here long enough to know this is exacctly the case. Guys like Guv, Ironhog, Eastex, among others wanted the GOBN dismantled, and now post about needing a good old southern biy to come save the program.



Incorrect.

I have been here long enough to know that many people say many things.  I have not been here long enough to say that any particular person said any particular thing and have now made contradictory statements.  That is what you are doing now and what you do all the time.  "Hogville" has a position in your mind.  "Hogville" has no position.  It is a collection of people with diverse opinions. 

It is fair to say that many here jump on a bandwagon.  One bandwagon has been that influential people controlled the athletic department.  Guess what?  That was true.  They were referred to as the GOBN here and elsewhere.  Guess what else?  Auburn, Alabama, and every other SEC school has its own GOBN.  Are they good or bad?  Don't know myself.  There are positives and negatives to GOBNs everywhere. 

You just like to ridicule Hogville in general, and this is one of the ways you do it. 
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hogsanity

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #43 on: November 06, 2017, 09:56:11 am »

There is no nostalgia or romanticism in recognizing changes over time, questioning whether those changes are positive or negative, analyzing the reasons for change, and suggesting fixes. 

"Although there is no progress without change, not all change is progress."

- John Wooden

Arkansas does not need rebranding.  Arkansas needs to figure out what made it great to begin with.  The answer is pretty simple.  All we need is a child to shout out that the emperor is not wearing any clothes.

When was the last time Arkansas was truly great in football? Where year after year after year after year they were ranked? Do you know, the last time they finished the season ranked 3 years in a row was 77-79. They finished in the top 16 4 times in 5 years from 85-89 ( 87 they finished unranked but went 9-4 played 12 reg seasons games because they went to Hawaii ).

Since 1990 they have only finished the season ranked 5 times. So tell me, when was the last time the were truly great?
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oldhawg

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #44 on: November 06, 2017, 10:00:28 am »

What Frank Broyles built in Fayettenam was in its time a huge legacy in a very backwards State was nothing short of a miracle. Love or Hate Frank Broyles  he was nothing but determined and bullheaded, he made many mistakes by running off great coaches because he was King of the Hill and could do as he liked right or wrong. His management style was based in the 1930's, his ideas were based in the 1930's and in fact hamstrung the Football program in many respects as the Football world passed him by and yet he was to set in his ways to change...Now in 2017 the Razorbacks are struggling to compete in a SEC world that is light years different when the Razorbacks moved into the SEC yet the ideas that Frank built the program on are still in full force...I see a Civil war coming...maybe its time to throw off the old and bring in the new...

Frank Broyles retired on  December 31, 2007 (ten years ago).  Hard to blame him for what has happened the last ten years.  Sounds like you are looking for a scapegoat.  His only influence during these ten years is that he is generally the standard that others are compared to.
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CareBear

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #45 on: November 06, 2017, 10:07:47 am »

Itís not as complicated as you make it my friend. We have seen much better football here in the past. Iím 42 and this is the worst 5 year stretch that I have personally experienced. We have never been a dirty program & we have always been competitive more often than not. Jeff Long did not do a thorough job researching & vetting CBB. If he would have peeled back the layers of the onion he would have known that CBB was a figurehead coach at Wisky & that he was no angel. Jeff Long made a lazy hire. Bert hustled him with the infamous ďLove letterĒ and he thought that he had his ace in the hole. He was wrong. What Iím seeing on Facebook is that the majority of people have jumped ship. When the wives & girlfriends start turning on Bert...itís a signal that the end is near. Iíve never seen so many posts by women calling for a coach to be fired before he gets to the locker room. He is not a good coach in any aspect of the game. Itís comical yet sad because we know what Razorback football is. Itís that fighting Hog spirit that represents the chip on the proverbial shoulder of our beloved little state. We can do better. We have seen better with our own eyes. These people use propaganda and BS canned ham coach speak to deflect the conversation. Bert needs to go & if Long wonít pull the trigger he will lose his job too. Keep your heads up Hog fans. We shall get through this together. We are not divided at this point. The product on the field over the last 5yrs and the excuses have gotten tired & redundant.   
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Dominicanhog

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #46 on: November 06, 2017, 10:20:03 am »



Since 1990 they have only finished the season ranked 5 times. So tell me, when was the last time the were truly great?

While I don't disagree, how many more times do you need to express it in a post.... most know the state of our football team..
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urkillnmesmalls

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #47 on: November 06, 2017, 10:30:13 am »

Do you not think a lot of reasonable people fall fairly evenly between the two camps? The very loud and vocal Hogville lunatic fringe we deal with daily are not exactly representative of how most Hog fans feel and behave.

My experience lately is actually no.  Normally, I would completely agree...middle ground is always the gound more tread on.  But...the ONLY people I've heard lately who don't think change is necessary are the people who have reached a point of being apathetic.  I think that's the bigger issue, and one of the things the UA needs to mull over is "What about the loyal fans who have been coming for decades who spend a few Saturdays at home instead of attending the games, and realize....Hey, it's kinda cool watching the game with a DVR, being able to walk 20 feet to the fridge, and have the rest of my Saturday to do what I want." 

IMO, that's the bigger concern....and with so many displacements going on with people having to move seats, it's just one more excuse for people to lose faith in the "game day experience." 

I'm not suggesting ANYTHING can take the place of the experience of being there, but what I am saying is...the alternative is MUCH sweeter now than back in the days when we mad 3, maybe 4 games on TV at most, and that was when we were doing well.  So...if you didn't have tickets, it was a "radio only" affair.  Then that moved to the PPV arena, but now those days are gone too, and you can see every single game in HD.  I know...the TV money is making that possible, and it's probably why the empty seats aren't nearly the concern to the UA that they would seem to be, but eventually....it will each critical mass, if it hasn't already. 
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urkillnmesmalls

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #48 on: November 06, 2017, 10:42:37 am »

Looks to me like it's just the same old argument. If you support Long and Bielema, you are the ones with integrity, who care about the players, and doing things the right way.

If you don't, you are expecting too much, clamoring for 10+ wins per year, even if you have to cheat to do it, don't value the student-athlete, a 'Petrino lover', etc.

It's a tired argument, and too simplistic.

I think that argument has been pushed aside at this point.  I don't know that we can say we've always run a squeaky clean program, but we certainly don't have the reputation as being dirty.  So...since we've won in the past, the fans expectation has to be that we can win more than what we're winning now and still remain clean and respected. 

For the fans who wish we would play ball at whatever the costs...the UA isn't going to do that.  I can guarantee you that a LOT of knowledgeable people look at the hiring of BP by JL as probably his BIGGEST mistake, because of what it ultimately did to our program.  The "Never should have fired" BP crowd doesn't like to hear that, but the truth is...there's probably an even bigger "Never should have hired BP" position from the PTB. 

They're not going to hire a coach with luggage, or a high risk option.  Won't happen. 
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hoghearted

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Re: Two Narratives
« Reply #49 on: November 06, 2017, 10:43:22 am »

I completely agree with your first post.


As to your second, I think there is room for disagreement on BP. Initially, I was very disappointed by the firing, but with time, realize it was justified, but it's ancient history. Those who don't trust Long's judgment on hiring base it on more than the BP debacle, but the rumors regarding his consideration of Grobe, etc. I don't think many want him to hire someone with baggage; they are just wanting assurances he will do due diligence in his next selection. On its surface, the hiring of BB was a home run, but not everyone was convinced. Time has proven them right.


At any rate, it's time for new blood.
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