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Author Topic: Speculate with me...  (Read 2707 times)

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greenEGnHAWGS

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Speculate with me...
« on: October 02, 2017, 08:12:03 pm »

Come...sup with me as we speculate pointlessly...

I've heard many comments about CBB being the beneficiary of poor in-state talent like CPB and Hootie had.

So...my question is this...WHAT IF...what if CBB had the team Nutt had? Better OLine. One of the greatest RB trios in the history of college football. Or the best running QB in recent memory in Matt Jones.

What if CBB had the WR trio (quartet w/ Hamilton) and Mallett, during the Petrino era? What a massive amount of talent that he had fall into his lap. Is it possible that CBB would've equaled/surpassed what CBP was able to with all of that talent?

Its all speculation and opinion, but I tend to believe that the Hogs had an ok and a great coach with AMAZING  instate talent. In which we now have a very good coach without the crazy talent his predecessors had and won with. I'm NOT taking away from CBPs coaching ability. I think he's a great offensive minded coach, but he was also handed tremendous talent.

So, to stay on point...WHAT IF CBB had either of their classes?
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lakecityhog

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2017, 08:20:57 pm »

Well, 1st of all we did not have "crazy" level talent. That is just another bit of propaganda continually regurgitated around here to try to discredit Petrino/Nutt as coaches.

How many of you even realize that DMac was listed as an athlete and not as a running back? Most people thought he would be a better DBack. Granted he was/is one of the greatest running backs ever at Arkansas or the SEC.

As to the rest of the OP, we would have won at a little better rate than now but not much better.
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Pork Ranger

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2017, 08:23:52 pm »

CBB could have probably done more with DMAC and co. But he definitely would not have outperformed Petrino with the same players. Not even worth explaining
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JaketheSnake

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2017, 08:27:02 pm »

Well, 1st of all we did not have "crazy" level talent. That is just another bit of propaganda continually regurgitated around here to try to discredit Petrino/Nutt as coaches.

How many of you even realize that DMac was listed as an athlete and not as a running back? Most people thought he would be a better DBack. Granted he was/is one of the greatest running backs ever at Arkansas or the SEC.

As to the rest of the OP, we would have won at a little better rate than now but not much better.
Really?  How many college teams have ever had two starting RBs, at same time, that went on to be NFL starters?  Then how many had 3?

Mallet, Adams, Childs, etc were all NFL level talent. 

Denying that is also propaganda.
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greenEGnHAWGS

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2017, 08:28:07 pm »

Well, 1st of all we did not have "crazy" level talent. That is just another bit of propaganda continually regurgitated around here to try to discredit Petrino/Nutt as coaches.

How many of you even realize that DMac was listed as an athlete and not as a running back? Most people thought he would be a better DBack. Granted he was/is one of the greatest running backs ever at Arkansas or the SEC.

As to the rest of the OP, we would have won at a little better rate than now but not much better.

I do like CBB, but this thread is not about that. I'm really asking if you could help me out as it does seem like we had more than usual game-changing players that fell into their laps. No?
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DoctorSusscrofa

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2017, 08:29:15 pm »

So you’re asking if having an excellent quarterback, a very good ol and great skilled players would make a diffetence? Well, that’s a really tough question. I’ll have to think on it for a while.
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factchecker

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2017, 08:29:26 pm »

Well, 1st of all we did not have "crazy" level talent.

This isn't crazy talent?

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BigE_23

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2017, 08:37:28 pm »

The notion that all the talent Coach Petrino had during his tenure just “fell in his lap” makes me wanna puke!!!

Why did Mallett want to transfer to Arkansas? To play for Petrino.

Where was Tyler Wilson going before CBP was hired?? Tulsa.

Where was Joe Adams going? USC.

Who recruited Knile Davis? Travis Swanson? Cobi Hamilton (Texas High)??

I could keep going...those teams weren’t a fluke assemblage of in-state talent. Petrino deserves every bit of the credit for keeping those kids in state, because before he came, many weren’t even considering coming to Fayetteville. But he also added some great pieces from out of state as well.

Meanwhile, Bert has lost KJ Hill, Josh Frazier, Demarea Crockett, and many more. Don’t twist the facts to try and fit your narrative.
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greenEGnHAWGS

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2017, 08:37:51 pm »

So you’re asking if having an excellent quarterback, a very good ol and great skilled players would make a diffetence? Well, that’s a really tough question. I’ll have to think on it for a while.

Maybe I should've tried to expound more.

We have a group that says that CBB sucks big time.
Same group says that anything would be better than what we have.
Aforementioned group says "Success has been here BEFORE! It can happen again!"

So, my thinking that started this thread is if CBB had the instate talent that his predecessors had, the narrative that exists today would be so much different. So, is CBB REALLY THAT bad of a coach or was he just not as lucky as BP and Nutt?
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jkstock04

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2017, 08:38:19 pm »

In the first place I'm not convinced those guys would've got offers from Bielema. I'm sure some of them may have...but for sure not all of them.

But just speculating like you say...had he gotten all of them? Im not at all convinced Bielema could've won as many games as we did. He's not a good game day coach.

It's all moot though...I don't think guys like Mark Pierce, Butu, Joe Adams, Matt Jones, Mallett, etc would've had a chance under Bielema. It takes a special kind of player to get an offer from the Hogs these days...and if they don't follow things off the field perfectly they for sure ain't gonna see the field.
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GoHogzzGo

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2017, 08:41:12 pm »

He would have done about the same as Nutt. A ten win season then regress to the mean.

Don't forget Bret beat that "crazy" talented Ark team his first year at Wisky.
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EastexHawg

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2017, 08:43:10 pm »

Mallet, Adams, Childs, etc were all NFL level talent. 

How about regaling us with some of their great accomplishments, or even moments, as pros?  I tend to have an excellent memory, but for some reason their NFL glory days are escaping me.
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BigE_23

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2017, 08:44:35 pm »

In the first place I'm not convinced those guys would've got offers from Bielema. I'm sure some of them may have...but for sure not all of them.

But just speculating like you say...had he gotten all of them? Im not at all convinced Bielema could've won as many games as we did. He's not a good game day coach.

It's all moot though...I don't think guys like Mark Pierce, Butu, Joe Adams, Matt Jones, Mallett, etc would've had a chance under Bielema. It takes a special kind of player to get an offer from the Hogs these days...and if they don't follow things off the field perfectly they for sure ain't gonna see the field.

This is a great point...D-Mac would have likely been kicked off the team during the off-season before his sophomore year under Saint Bert.
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greenEGnHAWGS

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2017, 08:46:23 pm »

The notion that all the talent Coach Petrino had during his tenure just “fell in his lap” makes me wanna puke!!!

Why did Mallett want to transfer to Arkansas? To play for Petrino.

Where was Tyler Wilson going before CBP was hired?? Tulsa.

Where was Joe Adams going? USC.

Who recruited Knile Davis? Travis Swanson? Cobi Hamilton (Texas High)??

I could keep going...those teams weren’t a fluke assemblage of in-state talent. Petrino deserves every bit of the credit for keeping those kids in state, because before he came, many weren’t even considering coming to Fayetteville. But he also added some great pieces from out of state as well.

Meanwhile, Bert has lost KJ Hill, Josh Frazier, Demarea Crockett, and many more. Don’t twist the facts to try and fit your narrative.

Mallett played at Michigan only cuz Henne got injured and then they hired Rich Rod who HAS to have a mobile QB for his offense to work. Coming back to Arkansas was a no brainer.

Again though, I agree that BP was a tremendous coach and many great offensive players wanted to play for him. But do you think that Tyler Wilson, Mallett, Davis, and Swanson would NOT want to come and have played for CBB had the places been switch?

But just to play...who are the "many more" pieces of in-state talent that CBB missed on?
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jkstock04

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2017, 08:47:16 pm »

This is a great point...D-Mac would have likely been kicked off the team during the off-season before his sophomore year under Saint Bert.
I'm not convinced Dmac would've even gotten an offer. But ya if he had do you think he would've made it under this regime or been "in the doghouse?" Think about Matt Jones...zero chance.
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BigE_23

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2017, 08:47:31 pm »

Since we’re speculating...how would Bert do at Wisky RIGHT NOW with Urban Meyer at OSU, Harbaugh at Michigan, and Franklin at Penn State?

All three programs were in the toilet during his over-lauded 3 straight Rose Bowls.
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factchecker

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2017, 08:48:29 pm »

I'm not convinced Dmac would've even gotten an offer. But ya if he had do you think he would've made it under this regime or been "in the doghouse?" Think about Matt Jones...zero chance.

You don't think a 5 star runningback/athlete would have got an offer?
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greenEGnHAWGS

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2017, 08:50:20 pm »

You don't think a 5 star runningback/athlete would have got an offer?

I doubt it...right?
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factchecker

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2017, 08:51:02 pm »

Since we’re speculating...how would Bert do at Wisky RIGHT NOW with Urban Meyer at OSU, Harbaugh at Michigan, and Franklin at Penn State?

All three programs were in the toilet during his over-lauded 3 straight Rose Bowls.

You realize that Bielema beat the same Ohio State team that beat us in the Sugar Bowl..... right?


Petrino couldn't beat an Ohio State team that was "in the toilet".
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jkstock04

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2017, 08:51:04 pm »

You don't think a 5 star runningback/athlete would have got an offer?
I'm not 100% convinced. Seems like there are a lot of extra criteria guys have to pass other than football skill in order to get an offer under Bielema.
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lakecityhog

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2017, 08:52:34 pm »

By the way those 3 running backs did NOT fall into Petrino's lap, they never played a down for him.
Mallett could have gone to any number of schools, I knida think BP may have recruited him just a little.
J Wright was rumored to be looking when Nutt left.
Adams was committed to USC.

How come none of you EVER mention the NFL players that BP left here for BB?????
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Großer Kriegschwein

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2017, 08:53:17 pm »

I'm not 100% convinced. Seems like there are a lot of extra criteria guys have to pass other than football skill in order to get an offer under Bielema.

It would seem that way.

Doesn't seem like he goes after players that are marginal in the academics department. Won't put a staff member on making sure they get up and get to class because they need this kid to win on Saturday.
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factchecker

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2017, 08:54:35 pm »

By the way those 3 running backs did NOT fall into Petrino's lap, they never played a down for him.
Mallett could have gone to any number of schools, I knida think BP may have recruited him just a little.
J Wright was rumored to be looking when Nutt left.
Adams was committed to USC.

How come none of you EVER mention the NFL players that BP left here for BB?????

You were talking about Nutt as well:

Well, 1st of all we did not have "crazy" level talent. That is just another bit of propaganda continually regurgitated around here to try to discredit Petrino/Nutt as coaches.
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MuskogeeHogFan

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2017, 08:54:50 pm »

I'm not 100% convinced. Seems like there are a lot of extra criteria guys have to pass other than football skill in order to get an offer under Bielema.

You are right. Nothing wrong with that.
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Hog Pharm

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2017, 08:55:34 pm »

You realize that Bielema beat the same Ohio State team that beat us in the Sugar Bowl..... right?


Petrino couldn't beat an Ohio State team that was "in the toilet".

Your facts are getting in the way of an agenda.
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factchecker

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2017, 08:56:13 pm »

I'm not 100% convinced. Seems like there are a lot of extra criteria guys have to pass other than football skill in order to get an offer under Bielema.

Do you know of any 5 star instate recruit that Bielema didn't offer?
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PorkSoda

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #26 on: October 02, 2017, 08:56:44 pm »

Really?  How many college teams have ever had two starting RBs, at same time, that went on to be NFL starters?  Then how many had 3?

Mallet, Adams, Childs, etc were all NFL level talent. 

Denying that is also propaganda.
Ronnie Brown and Cadillac Williams come to mind.  Richardson/Ingram,  Yeldon/Henry, Fournette/Guice, Chubb/Gurley, etc.

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greenEGnHAWGS

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #27 on: October 02, 2017, 08:58:59 pm »

By the way those 3 running backs did NOT fall into Petrino's lap, they never played a down for him.
Mallett could have gone to any number of schools, I knida think BP may have recruited him just a little.
J Wright was rumored to be looking when Nutt left.
Adams was committed to USC.

How come none of you EVER mention the NFL players that BP left here for BB?????

1. No one said that BP had the 3 headed monster of RBs. Nutt was the only one mentioned.
2. Mallett left for UM when we took Mustain. Then Mustain transferred to USC and we were left with nothing at QB. So, we had a phenomenal offensive minded coach and no QB...yeah, I'm sure BP had to really twist his arm.
3. JWright was rumored...enough said...
4. Adams did decommit from USC. True. BP did bring him in.
5. I'm not referring to anything about NFL players. I'm talking college players who were tremendous college players.

The point of this thread is WOULD CBB BE IN THE SAME LIGHT AS HE HAD HE HAD MORE INSTATE TALENT LIKE HIS PREDECESSORS.
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EastexHawg

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2017, 09:00:17 pm »

Ronnie Brown and Cadillac Williams come to mind.  Richardson/Ingram,  Yeldon/Henry, Fournette/Guice, Chubb/Gurley, etc.



Charles White and Marcus Allen did okay for themselves.

Thurman Thomas and Barry Sanders weren't a bad combo, either.
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BigE_23

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2017, 09:00:29 pm »

You realize that Bielema beat the same Ohio State team that beat us in the Sugar Bowl..... right?

Petrino couldn't beat an Ohio State team that was "in the toilet".

Nice job cherry picking the one time he beat OSU. He was 1-5 against them during his tenure...
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factchecker

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #30 on: October 02, 2017, 09:01:27 pm »

Nice job cherry picking the one time he beat OSU. He was 1-5 against them during his tenure...

Petrino was 0-1 vs. the bucknuts.

Petrino was also 2-2 vs. Nutt.

Bielema was 1-0 vs. Nutt.

There is no reason for you to discredit Bielema's wins at Wiscy..... all you have to do is look at his current record here.  Your love for Petrino is making you mad.
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Großer Kriegschwein

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #31 on: October 02, 2017, 09:04:47 pm »

1. No one said that BP had the 3 headed monster of RBs. Nutt was the only one mentioned.
2. Mallett left for UM when we took Mustain. Then Mustain transferred to USC and we were left with nothing at QB. So, we had a phenomenal offensive minded coach and no QB...yeah, I'm sure BP had to really twist his arm.
3. JWright was rumored...enough said...
4. Adams did decommit from USC. True. BP did bring him in.
5. I'm not referring to anything about NFL players. I'm talking college players who were tremendous college players.

The point of this thread is WOULD CBB BE IN THE SAME LIGHT AS HE HAD HE HAD MORE INSTATE TALENT LIKE HIS PREDECESSORS.

I just had a conversation with a dumb Captain about college football quarterbacks. He compared Matt Flynn to Ryan Mallett for success and efficiency at QB due to their NFL careers when we were talking about college performance.

Some can't seem to separate the two. Or they are just dooshnozzles like this Kentucky fan Captain.

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EastexHawg

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #32 on: October 02, 2017, 09:05:27 pm »

Roosevelt Leaks and Earl Campbell.  Eric Dickerson and Craig James. 
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Cinco de Hogo

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #33 on: October 02, 2017, 09:06:18 pm »

Didn't even bother reading all the comments but let me speculate, what if we have great talent on the team right now but CBB and company aren't getting the best out of them?
What if CHN or CBP had this team, what would our record be?

CHN-About the same but possibly one more win.
CBP-undefeated.
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(notOM)Rebel123

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #34 on: October 02, 2017, 09:07:24 pm »

Charles White and Marcus Allen did okay for themselves.

Thurman Thomas and Barry Sanders weren't a bad combo, either.

Allen & White were a nice combo in 1979, when Allen moved to fullback.
After White left, he moved back to tailback. The rest is history.
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jkstock04

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #35 on: October 02, 2017, 09:07:35 pm »

You are right. Nothing wrong with that.
I guess if you don't mind not winning as many games nothing's wrong with it lol. It's crazy, the past few weeks is the first time ever that I have looked semi favorably on Houston Freakin Nutt and his time here. Crazy pill stuff.

It's an interesting conversation. Seems to me Jeff Long says you are either Baylor or us...nothing in between. So what was Houston Nutt? Or Petrino? I see no chance Bielema would've put up with Matt Jones. Zero chance. Houston Nutt put up with him so we could win football games. Would Jeff Long consider us a "win first" program when Nutt was coach?
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factchecker

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #36 on: October 02, 2017, 09:08:22 pm »

Didn't even bother reading all the comments but let me speculate, what if we have great talent on the team right now but CBB and company aren't getting the best out of them?
What if CHN or CBP had this team, what would our record be?

CHN-About the same but possibly one more win.
CBP-undefeated.

Yeah, I'm not sure Petrino would beat Patterson.   He couldn't beat Stoops at Kentucky last year despite having a heisman winner.
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EastexHawg

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #37 on: October 02, 2017, 09:10:35 pm »

Floyd Little and Larry Csonka from Syracuse are both in the Pro Football Hall of Fame...if you're into that kind of thing.
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Cinco de Hogo

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #38 on: October 02, 2017, 09:12:44 pm »

Yeah, I'm not sure Petrino would beat Patterson.   He couldn't beat Stoops at Kentucky last year despite having a heisman winner.

There is a reason Petrino wanted to coach at Arkansas, you can beat the Kentucky's without a HT winner.  Yea maybe you still can't beat Saban Bama's but then I don't think he was getting those offers. 
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greenEGnHAWGS

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #39 on: October 02, 2017, 09:15:03 pm »

I guess if you don't mind not winning as many games nothing's wrong with it lol. It's crazy, the past few weeks is the first time ever that I have looked semi favorably on Houston Freakin Nutt and his time here. Crazy pill stuff.

It's an interesting conversation. Seems to me Jeff Long says you are either Baylor or us...nothing in between. So what was Houston Nutt? Or Petrino? I see no chance Bielema would've put up with Matt Jones. Zero chance. Houston Nutt put up with him so we could win football games. Would Jeff Long consider us a "win first" program when Nutt was coach?

Interesting thought. If Matt Jones had a CBB type coach, wonder if would have acted more responsible and possibly have done something with his amazing talent on the next level.
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Swestwill66

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #40 on: October 02, 2017, 09:15:10 pm »

By the way those 3 running backs did NOT fall into Petrino's lap, they never played a down for him.
Mallett could have gone to any number of schools, I knida think BP may have recruited him just a little.
J Wright was rumored to be looking when Nutt left.
Adams was committed to USC.

How come none of you EVER mention the NFL players that BP left here for BB?????
Yeah, like Trey Flowers
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BigE_23

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #41 on: October 02, 2017, 09:15:41 pm »

Petrino was 0-1 vs. the bucknuts.

Petrino was also 2-2 vs. Nutt.

Bielema was 1-0 vs. Nutt.

There is no reason for you to discredit Bielema's wins at Wiscy..... all you have to do is look at his current record here.  Your love for Petrino is making you mad.
Not discrediting anything, simply asking the OP's question in reverse. I'm sorry that's too complicated for you to keep up with.

It's a fact that those 3 perennial powers were down during the bulk of his run at Wisconsin and they're now back to their normal status...specifically Michigan and Penn State, as OSU only had one down year, that being Luke Fickell's interim year. Bert had to coach against Urban in 2012 (a probation year for OSU), and knew his goose was cooked that's why he bolted for Arkansas...but you already know all of this, right? I mean, you're the factchecker!

Did Bret Bielema capitalize on those facts? Yep. Would he be as successful there right now? You're the self-anointed factchecker, so you tell me.
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PonderinHog

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #42 on: October 02, 2017, 09:15:57 pm »

Since we’re speculating...how would Bert do at Wisky RIGHT NOW with Urban Meyer at OSU, Harbaugh at Michigan, and Franklin at Penn State?

All three programs were in the toilet during his over-lauded 3 straight Rose Bowls.
What was Wisconsin's record in those three Rose Bowls ???
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jkstock04

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #43 on: October 02, 2017, 09:16:56 pm »

Do you know of any 5 star instate recruit that Bielema didn't offer?
Not that I'm aware of.

One thing is important to note though on these "offers" though. I haven't followed recruiting closely in a few years but one thing I do remember is these offers many times are contingent or soft. Nobody really knows if it's a committable offer or not. Of course the said recruit will say it is committable...but that can easily be pie in the sky. How many times have we "cooled" on a guy because of something non football related?

Moral of the story I don't think we recruit cut and dry these days. Simply because a guy is a 5* won't automatically get him an offer under Bielema. That's no secret, Bielema has stated as much.

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BigE_23

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #44 on: October 02, 2017, 09:19:29 pm »

What was Wisconsin's record in those three Rose Bowls ???
0-2, Alvarez lost the third one. And a 12-0 OSU team was on probation that year, BTW. All insignificant, moot points ;)
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PorkSoda

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #45 on: October 02, 2017, 09:23:32 pm »

Not that I'm aware of.

One thing is important to note though on these "offers" though. I haven't followed recruiting closely in a few years but one thing I do remember is these offers many times are contingent or soft. Nobody really knows if it's a committable offer or not. Of course the said recruit will say it is committable...but that can easily be pie in the sky. How many times have we "cooled" on a guy because of something non football related?

Moral of the story I don't think we recruit cut and dry these days. Simply because a guy is a 5* won't automatically get him an offer under Bielema. That's no secret, Bielema has stated as much.


lol, please tell me you aren't suggesting that CBB has a habit of turning down 5 star recruits.

I mean Selma Hayek wouldnt quit texting me the other day, I finally had to tell her that she wasn't up to my standards.
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Großer Kriegschwein

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #46 on: October 02, 2017, 09:26:25 pm »

lol, please tell me you aren't suggesting that CBB has a habit of turning down 5 star recruits.

I mean Selma Hayek wouldnt quit texting me the other day, I finally had to tell her that she wasn't up to my standards.

I don't think that there have been any 5* players that have made it known that they want to come to Arkansas for him to turn down.
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greenEGnHAWGS

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #47 on: October 02, 2017, 09:26:44 pm »

What was Wisconsin's record in those three Rose Bowls ???

May I ask which top tier bowl games CBP has been to and won?


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JOKERHOG

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #48 on: October 02, 2017, 09:28:42 pm »

Watch each coach on the sideline for a half of football and it will be obvious which coach would win the most games with equal talent
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Swestwill66

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Re: Speculate with me...
« Reply #49 on: October 02, 2017, 09:30:39 pm »

I don't recall, where was Arkansas ranked in the final poll in 2011? 2010 ?
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