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Author Topic: Apples and Oranges  (Read 701 times)

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Been10Hog

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Apples and Oranges
« on: September 18, 2017, 08:16:07 am »

Comparing schedules of Hatfield and Petrino at their peak with Bielema's last year. If you look at teams objectively, like I know most on here don't do you realize not all teams are the same. The TCU Hatfield played is not the same as the TCU of the past 2 years and the Ole Miss Bielema has played is not the same quality team as the one Petrino and Hatfield faced. Just looking at the schedules in 1989, 2011 and 2016 and comparing relative team strength of the teams on those schedules you see that Hatfield should have been expected to win 8 games in 1989 without much difficulty then had 4 tough games including the bowl.
Petrino should have been expected to win 9 games in 2011 without much difficulty then had 4 tough games including the bowl.
Looking at last years schedule on paper, Bielema should have been expected to win 5 games just by showing up then had 8 tough games including the bowl. The schedules below show that:

         Should win      Tough game
Hatfield 1989
         Texas Tech      Texas
         TCU            Texas A&M
         SMU            Houston
         Rice            Tennessee (Cotton Bowl)
         Baylor
         Tulsa
         Ole Miss
         UTEP
                       
                Should win      Tough game
Petrino 2011
         Missouri St.      Alabama
         New Mexico      LSU
         Troy                Kansas St. (Cotton Bowl)
         Vanderbilt         South Carolina
         Auburn   (8-5; 4-4 coach fired next year)      
         Texas A&M (7-6; 4-5 coach fired)
         Ole Miss  (2-10; 0-8 coach fired)
         Tennessee (5-7; 1-7)
         Miss St   (7-6; 2-6)

               Should win   Tough game
Bielema 2016
         La Tech         TCU
         Texas St         Texas A&M
         Alcorn St         Alabama
         Missouri          Ole Miss
         Miss St           Auburn
                             Florida
                         LSU
                          Virginia Tech

Just saying numbers of games won is not the best measuring stick. I would love to be playing Petrino's Ole Miss, Auburn, Texas A&M and Hatfield's TCU but we're not! I think Bielema is building the program the right way that will sustain success once we get there. Losing a game to a good TCU team that was only up 7 with 2 minutes left is not a reason to jump off a bridge. We held TCU to 14 points for 58 minutes! I'd be surprised if any other team holds them to 28 points the rest of the year!

We need patience! We need to support BB and the Hogs! We will be competitive for Jan 1 bowls in next 2 years, even with the lopsided ridiculously competitive schedule we play now.

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go hogues

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Re: Apples and Oranges
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2017, 08:21:00 am »

SEC teams don't lose to TCU on opening day in front of a packed house. Not in year five of a coach's tenure. Not after bragging since January that Mizzou/VaTech was a wake up call.
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jgphillips3

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Re: Apples and Oranges
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2017, 08:30:12 am »

The funny thing about this chart is even YOU are giving Petrino credit for being a better coach by putting 2011 Auburn, A&M and MSU in the "should win" column.  The SEC was FAR better top to bottom in 2011.  It's not even close.  I will guarantee you, as suspect as 2016 A&M, Florida (on offense), TCU and Virginia Tech were, if it were Petrino's 2011 squad, those 4 would all be in the should win column.  Conversely, if Bielema were coach in 2011, you would have to move A&M, Auburn and MSU out of the should win column to no better than toss ups.
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al_pigcino

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Re: Apples and Oranges
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2017, 08:36:23 am »

SEC teams don't lose to TCU on opening day in front of a packed house. Not in year five of a coach's tenure. Not after bragging since January that Mizzou/VaTech was a wake up call.
Ranked LSU teams don't lose to Mississippi State.  Utah doesn't destroy Nick Saban Alabama teams.  There are a lot of "don'ts" happening in recent years. 
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BearsBisonsBoars

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Re: Apples and Oranges
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2017, 08:42:11 am »

The funny thing about this chart is even YOU are giving Petrino credit for being a better coach by putting 2011 Auburn, A&M and MSU in the "should win" column.  The SEC was FAR better top to bottom in 2011.  It's not even close.  I will guarantee you, as suspect as 2016 A&M, Florida (on offense), TCU and Virginia Tech were, if it were Petrino's 2011 squad, those 4 would all be in the should win column.  Conversely, if Bielema were coach in 2011, you would have to move A&M, Auburn and MSU out of the should win column to no better than toss ups.

While i believe it's time to move on from Bielema, OP is correct about the SoS and you obviously don't understand what he's saying.
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hoggusamoungus

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Re: Apples and Oranges
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2017, 08:44:48 am »

SEC teams don't lose to TCU on opening day in front of a packed house. Not in year five of a coach's tenure. Not after bragging since January that Mizzou/VaTech was a wake up call.

That TCU team has a coach starting year eighteen and has won 74% of games over that period.  Don't like losing but that's a stable program that has beaten teams better than Arkansas in the recent past.
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DeltaBoy

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Re: Apples and Oranges
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2017, 08:45:17 am »

That Sugar Bowl Bama loss was the biggest egg laid by a Saban team .
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Been10Hog

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Re: Apples and Oranges
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2017, 08:46:28 am »

While i believe it's time to move on from Bielema, OP is correct about the SoS and you obviously don't understand what he's saying.
I appreciate the comment. He clearly didn't look at the details in parentheses. If he thinks Petrino being on the sideline had something to do with the disasters the Ole Miss, Auburn and Texas A&M programs were at the time then he clearly is not someone you can have a rational conversation with
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jkstock04

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Re: Apples and Oranges
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2017, 09:11:06 am »

I appreciate the comment. He clearly didn't look at the details in parentheses. If he thinks Petrino being on the sideline had something to do with the disasters the Ole Miss, Auburn and Texas A&M programs were at the time then he clearly is not someone you can have a rational conversation with
Rational? You have Ole Miss and TCU as "tough games" last year. Did you happen to overlook their records last year? I noticed you didn't forget to overlook that for Petrinos "easy games." A&M on the "tough" list last year is fairly comical as well.

This is same ole same ole we have read on here the past few years. Bielema is awesome and Petrino sucks. Bielema is building it "the right way." Petrino was a "flash in a pan."
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codeHog

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Re: Apples and Oranges
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2017, 09:14:04 am »

IF TCU beats you , fine. When you help them beat you, fans want to give another coach a shot at it
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Been10Hog

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Re: Apples and Oranges
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2017, 09:20:21 am »

Rational? You have Ole Miss and TCU as "tough games" last year. Did you happen to overlook their records last year? I noticed you didn't forget to overlook that for Petrinos "easy games." A&M on the "tough" list last year is fairly comical as well.

This is same ole same ole we have read on here the past few years. Bielema is awesome and Petrino sucks. Bielema is building it "the right way." Petrino was a "flash in a pan."
Thanks for proving my point. The football knowledgeable folks on here have paid attention to the recruiting classes Ole Miss has had, although now we know how they got them, over the past 4 years. They were 0-8 in SEC in 2011! Did you watch the NFL draft this spring? And A&M has been a world beater before BAMA every year! You think we have more talent than A&M? Really? Again, watch the draft this year? Myles Garrett ring a bell?
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3kgthog

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Re: Apples and Oranges
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2017, 09:21:56 am »

5 years is enough patience when there's no visible progress on the field. We've only seen regression several games in a row. Severe regression.
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BearsBisonsBoars

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Re: Apples and Oranges
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2017, 09:27:35 am »

Rational? You have Ole Miss and TCU as "tough games" last year. Did you happen to overlook their records last year? I noticed you didn't forget to overlook that for Petrinos "easy games." A&M on the "tough" list last year is fairly comical as well.

This is same ole same ole we have read on here the past few years. Bielema is awesome and Petrino sucks. Bielema is building it "the right way." Petrino was a "flash in a pan."

Petrino looks to be a better coach than Bielema, but no where near by the margin you and others claim.
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Been10Hog

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Re: Apples and Oranges
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2017, 09:31:18 am »

5 years is enough patience when there's no visible progress on the field. We've only seen regression several games in a row. Severe regression.
I want to win all our games! Just as much as everyone! But, was trying to look at things objectively. Vegas is pretty good at being objective. When we win most of the games Vegas picks us to win and steal some games Vegas picks us to lose like TCU, Ole Miss and Florida last year, I don't think it's fair to see BB is doing a terrible job. We should not lose to Missouri! That was one! We were picked to lose to A&M, TCU, Bama, Ole Miss, LSU and Florida and took 3 of those. We're in the toughest div in football. We are improving, but the competition is too and they started out better than us! If we beat A&M that is progress!
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ShadowHawg

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Re: Apples and Oranges
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2017, 09:42:29 am »

Losing to your opponents boosts their win totals so it makes comparisons like yours total bs.
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jkstock04

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Re: Apples and Oranges
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2017, 09:45:10 am »

Thanks for proving my point. The football knowledgeable folks on here have paid attention to the recruiting classes Ole Miss has had, although now we know how they got them, over the past 4 years. They were 0-8 in SEC in 2011! Did you watch the NFL draft this spring? And A&M has been a world beater before BAMA every year! You think we have more talent than A&M? Really? Again, watch the draft this year? Myles Garrett ring a bell?
You are a Bielema homer. Nothing more nothing less. For sure has nothing to do with football knowledge. You have Auburn in 2011 as an "easy win" because they won 8 games. Yet last year a 6 win TCU team who went 4-5 in the Big 12 was a "tough" game.

Wanna move the goalposts now and pretend you were actually talking about recruiting rankings in the OP? Ok...what was Auburns recruiting like back then when they were winning national championships compared to ours?
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12247

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Re: Apples and Oranges
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2017, 09:52:31 am »

Gents, I been a Hog fan far longer than most which means I am very old, nothing more.  I have viewed a few Hog coaches along the way.  BB has shown success in the past for another team.  If BB is a solid 4 million a year HC, he knows exactly what is wrong with his team and exactly how to correct it.  In the 4 full seasons he has coached the Hogs, the product put on the field has not been what at least I would expect in any of those years.  We have talent that goes untapped each and every year.  We enter each season not ready.  On paper, we have experience on the field this season on offense that totally isn't showing up.  In fact, the new D coordinator and his new formation looked far better than the old established OC  put on the field for the offense.  And that is another trait of a BB coached team.  New coordinator hires seem to do better early on than later which is totally upside down.  THIS TEAM HAS AN ATTITUDE PROBLEM AND HAS HAD SINCE DAY ONE OF THE BB ERA.  THE LONGER YOU STAY HERE THE WORSE THE ATTITUDE GETS. 
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Redhogs

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Re: Apples and Oranges
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2017, 09:56:48 am »

Comparing schedules of Hatfield and Petrino at their peak with Bielema's last year. If you look at teams objectively, like I know most on here don't do you realize not all teams are the same. The TCU Hatfield played is not the same as the TCU of the past 2 years and the Ole Miss Bielema has played is not the same quality team as the one Petrino and Hatfield faced. Just looking at the schedules in 1989, 2011 and 2016 and comparing relative team strength of the teams on those schedules you see that Hatfield should have been expected to win 8 games in 1989 without much difficulty then had 4 tough games including the bowl.
Petrino should have been expected to win 9 games in 2011 without much difficulty then had 4 tough games including the bowl.
Looking at last years schedule on paper, Bielema should have been expected to win 5 games just by showing up then had 8 tough games including the bowl. The schedules below show that:

         Should win      Tough game
Hatfield 1989
         Texas Tech      Texas
         TCU            Texas A&M
         SMU            Houston
         Rice            Tennessee (Cotton Bowl)
         Baylor
         Tulsa
         Ole Miss
         UTEP
                       
                Should win      Tough game
Petrino 2011
         Missouri St.      Alabama
         New Mexico      LSU
         Troy                Kansas St. (Cotton Bowl)
         Vanderbilt         South Carolina
         Auburn   (8-5; 4-4 coach fired next year)      
         Texas A&M (7-6; 4-5 coach fired)
         Ole Miss  (2-10; 0-8 coach fired)
         Tennessee (5-7; 1-7)
         Miss St   (7-6; 2-6)

               Should win   Tough game
Bielema 2016
         La Tech         TCU
         Texas St         Texas A&M
         Alcorn St         Alabama
         Missouri          Ole Miss
         Miss St           Auburn
                             Florida
                         LSU
                          Virginia Tech

Just saying numbers of games won is not the best measuring stick. I would love to be playing Petrino's Ole Miss, Auburn, Texas A&M and Hatfield's TCU but we're not! I think Bielema is building the program the right way that will sustain success once we get there. Losing a game to a good TCU team that was only up 7 with 2 minutes left is not a reason to jump off a bridge. We held TCU to 14 points for 58 minutes! I'd be surprised if any other team holds them to 28 points the rest of the year!

We need patience! We need to support BB and the Hogs! We will be competitive for Jan 1 bowls in next 2 years, even with the lopsided ridiculously competitive schedule we play now.
Excuse #1759....awesome.

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Marshfieldhog

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Re: Apples and Oranges
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2017, 10:00:20 am »

SEC teams don't lose to TCU on opening day in front of a packed house. Not in year five of a coach's tenure. Not after bragging since January that Mizzou/VaTech was a wake up call.

This
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codeHog

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Re: Apples and Oranges
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2017, 10:08:19 am »

I just wish I knew if Patton would have stepped out of bounds in the endzone like Cantrell did.

If not, then Enos let the whole program down....or was it Lunney? :)
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RazorWest

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Re: Apples and Oranges
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2017, 10:22:56 am »

goodness sakes.  The SEC was down last year and down this year more than it's been since early Nutt years.  Get over it.  Hogs would not be competitive in any P5 league this year except maybe Pac 12.  Every one in the national media recognizes that CBB needs to win more, but you seem to say he's winning as much as expected.  Just because he doesn't win the games he favored to lose does not make him a good coach.  Why are we favored to lose all the time?  Don't give me recruiting ranking crap either, can we not outrecruit MSU?  Seems to me they may be the second best team in the SEC.  Why them and not us?  Coaching who can find a stud Duel threat QB is my answer
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The NewEra

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Re: Apples and Oranges
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2017, 10:25:23 am »

Any thread that doesn't include fire Bielema and Long won't be favorably received on this website for a few weeks at a minimum.  Don't come in here with any suggestion that might show the fire the coach crowd that this has been the toughest division in the toughest conference since Bielema's arrival.  Approximately 50% of all his games against credible competition have been ranked teams.

I personally hope Bielema turns this thing around.  It would be best for the program and I want these players to be successful.  The main thing I would argue in opposition to Bielema is he needs to quit having the ugly losses and show consistent improvement in all three phases of the game.  Where he will certainly lose the entire fan base is with a continuation of the non-competitive losses.  Those are inexcusable and must stop.

I'm willing to let the season play out before I make a final decision.  One thing seems to be certain.  The conference is way down this year and it's the perfect opportunity to get nine wins or better.  It won't get any more attainable than this season.
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Been10Hog

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Re: Apples and Oranges
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2017, 10:31:27 am »

You are a Bielema homer. Nothing more nothing less. For sure has nothing to do with football knowledge. You have Auburn in 2011 as an "easy win" because they won 8 games. Yet last year a 6 win TCU team who went 4-5 in the Big 12 was a "tough" game.

Wanna move the goalposts now and pretend you were actually talking about recruiting rankings in the OP? Ok...what was Auburns recruiting like back then when they were winning national championships compared to ours?
I'm definitely not a Bielema homer and I played for Hatfield. I was simply trying to show that schedule strength for BB is without a doubt different between the 3 eras.
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jgphillips3

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Re: Apples and Oranges
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2017, 10:34:52 am »

While i believe it's time to move on from Bielema, OP is correct about the SoS and you obviously don't understand what he's saying.

My problem is, whenever you say "should win", regardless of the quality of opponent, you are taking subjective measure of your own team.  Knowing what you know, if you took Bielema's 2016 squad back to 2011, could you call those should win games?  I say no.  "Should win" is based on the state of the program and quality of the coach.  After Toledo, in the CBB era, there really isn't a "should win" game unless they are FCS.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 10:49:08 am by jgphillips3 »
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Been10Hog

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Re: Apples and Oranges
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2017, 10:40:18 am »

My problem is, whenever you say "should win", regardless of the quality of opponent, you are taking subjective measure of your own team.  Knowing what you know, if you took Birlema's 2016 squad back to 2011, could you call those should win games?  I say no.  "Should win" is based on the state of the program and quality of the coach.  After Toledo, in the CBB era, there really isn't a "should win" game unless they are FCS.
You don't think HDN's 2011 Ole Miss team was a should win game for Petrino or any SEC coach that year? It's actually pretty easy! Who does Vegas pick to win and who actually wins? Those in should win column we were favored. Other column we were not or too close to call
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hogsanity

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Re: Apples and Oranges
« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2017, 10:47:36 am »

You don't think HDN's 2011 Ole Miss team was a should win game for Petrino or any SEC coach that year? It's actually pretty easy! Who does Vegas pick to win and who actually wins? Those in should win column we were favored. Other column we were not or too close to call


then the Hogs should not have beaten TCU, hogs were a 3pt dog.
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sickboy

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Re: Apples and Oranges
« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2017, 10:50:33 am »

SEC teams don't lose to TCU on opening day in front of a packed house. Not in year five of a coach's tenure. Not after bragging since January that Mizzou/VaTech was a wake up call.

This is stupid. There are a lot of reason why Arkansas should have beaten TCU. Being an SEC school isn't one of them. TCU is a good program with one of the best coaches in the country.
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jgphillips3

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Re: Apples and Oranges
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2017, 10:51:02 am »

You don't think HDN's 2011 Ole Miss team was a should win game for Petrino or any SEC coach that year? It's actually pretty easy! Who does Vegas pick to win and who actually wins? Those in should win column we were favored. Other column we were not or too close to call

So, if we were favored in more games in 2011 when we had a good coach and we aren't favored in more now...what does that tell you about the state of the program when the SEC is way, WAY down?
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rzrbaxfan

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Re: Apples and Oranges
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2017, 10:51:44 am »

Comparing schedules of Hatfield and Petrino at their peak with Bielema's last year. If you look at teams objectively, like I know most on here don't do you realize not all teams are the same. The TCU Hatfield played is not the same as the TCU of the past 2 years and the Ole Miss Bielema has played is not the same quality team as the one Petrino and Hatfield faced. Just looking at the schedules in 1989, 2011 and 2016 and comparing relative team strength of the teams on those schedules you see that Hatfield should have been expected to win 8 games in 1989 without much difficulty then had 4 tough games including the bowl.
Petrino should have been expected to win 9 games in 2011 without much difficulty then had 4 tough games including the bowl.
Looking at last years schedule on paper, Bielema should have been expected to win 5 games just by showing up then had 8 tough games including the bowl. The schedules below show that:

         Should win      Tough game
Hatfield 1989
         Texas Tech      Texas
         TCU            Texas A&M
         SMU            Houston
         Rice            Tennessee (Cotton Bowl)
         Baylor
         Tulsa
         Ole Miss
         UTEP
                       
                Should win      Tough game
Petrino 2011
         Missouri St.      Alabama
         New Mexico      LSU
         Troy                Kansas St. (Cotton Bowl)
         Vanderbilt         South Carolina
         Auburn   (8-5; 4-4 coach fired next year)      
         Texas A&M (7-6; 4-5 coach fired)
         Ole Miss  (2-10; 0-8 coach fired)
         Tennessee (5-7; 1-7)
         Miss St   (7-6; 2-6)

               Should win   Tough game
Bielema 2016
         La Tech         TCU
         Texas St         Texas A&M
         Alcorn St         Alabama
         Missouri          Ole Miss
         Miss St           Auburn
                             Florida
                         LSU
                          Virginia Tech

Just saying numbers of games won is not the best measuring stick. I would love to be playing Petrino's Ole Miss, Auburn, Texas A&M and Hatfield's TCU but we're not! I think Bielema is building the program the right way that will sustain success once we get there. Losing a game to a good TCU team that was only up 7 with 2 minutes left is not a reason to jump off a bridge. We held TCU to 14 points for 58 minutes! I'd be surprised if any other team holds them to 28 points the rest of the year!

We need patience! We need to support BB and the Hogs! We will be competitive for Jan 1 bowls in next 2 years, even with the lopsided ridiculously competitive schedule we play now.



This is the stuff moral victories are made of.  I had enough of those from 1998-2007.

I do agree that holding TCU to 14 gave me some hope, but the game is 60 minutes, and during that 60 minutes, we only scored 7 points with 2 red-zone trips that yielded no points.  We've got games coming up with a lot more talent, speed and size than TCU.  It's year 5.  It's ok to expect better.
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GoHogs1091

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Re: Apples and Oranges
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2017, 11:03:05 am »

Comparing schedules of Hatfield and Petrino at their peak with Bielema's last year. If you look at teams objectively, like I know most on here don't do you realize not all teams are the same. The TCU Hatfield played is not the same as the TCU of the past 2 years and the Ole Miss Bielema has played is not the same quality team as the one Petrino and Hatfield faced. Just looking at the schedules in 1989, 2011 and 2016 and comparing relative team strength of the teams on those schedules you see that Hatfield should have been expected to win 8 games in 1989 without much difficulty then had 4 tough games including the bowl.
Petrino should have been expected to win 9 games in 2011 without much difficulty then had 4 tough games including the bowl.
Looking at last years schedule on paper, Bielema should have been expected to win 5 games just by showing up then had 8 tough games including the bowl. The schedules below show that:

         Should win      Tough game
Hatfield 1989
         Texas Tech      Texas
         TCU            Texas A&M
         SMU            Houston
         Rice            Tennessee (Cotton Bowl)
         Baylor
         Tulsa
         Ole Miss
         UTEP
                       
                Should win      Tough game
Petrino 2011
         Missouri St.      Alabama
         New Mexico      LSU
         Troy                Kansas St. (Cotton Bowl)
         Vanderbilt         South Carolina
         Auburn   (8-5; 4-4 coach fired next year)      
         Texas A&M (7-6; 4-5 coach fired)
         Ole Miss  (2-10; 0-8 coach fired)
         Tennessee (5-7; 1-7)
         Miss St   (7-6; 2-6)

               Should win   Tough game
Bielema 2016
         La Tech         TCU
         Texas St         Texas A&M
         Alcorn St         Alabama
         Missouri          Ole Miss
         Miss St           Auburn
                             Florida
                         LSU
                          Virginia Tech

Just saying numbers of games won is not the best measuring stick. I would love to be playing Petrino's Ole Miss, Auburn, Texas A&M and Hatfield's TCU but we're not! I think Bielema is building the program the right way that will sustain success once we get there. Losing a game to a good TCU team that was only up 7 with 2 minutes left is not a reason to jump off a bridge. We held TCU to 14 points for 58 minutes! I'd be surprised if any other team holds them to 28 points the rest of the year!

We need patience! We need to support BB and the Hogs! We will be competitive for Jan 1 bowls in next 2 years, even with the lopsided ridiculously competitive schedule we play now.

The number of wins and losses is the ultimate measuring stick.  Bill Parcells once said, "You are what your record says you are."

Oklahoma will probably hold TCU to 28 points.  Oklahoma State may also.
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OneTuskOverTheLine™

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Re: Apples and Oranges
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2017, 11:06:30 am »

SEC teams don't lose to TCU on opening day in front of a packed house. Not in year five of a coach's tenure. Not after bragging since January that Mizzou/VaTech was a wake up call.

 I can't explain why, but what you say makes me angry with you...
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Been10Hog

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Re: Apples and Oranges
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2017, 11:06:43 am »

This is the stuff moral victories are made of.  I had enough of those from 1998-2007.

I do agree that holding TCU to 14 gave me some hope, but the game is 60 minutes, and during that 60 minutes, we only scored 7 points with 2 red-zone trips that yielded no points.  We've got games coming up with a lot more talent, speed and size than TCU.  It's year 5.  It's ok to expect better.
we should expect better and hopefully we will continue to improve. Because, if we don't a coaching change doesn't usually lead to immediate success especially when I doubt we will bring in someone with Bielema's offensive philosophy. We will have a couple dry years to get the new system installed and you still have to play a schedule that featured 9 bowl teams last year.
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HogFaninMemphis

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Re: Apples and Oranges
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2017, 11:09:35 am »

My goodness guys it's like we're out there losing to Toledo (again). We played an actually good team (yes, even by SEC standards, which are not what they were a couple of years ago). TCU is better than A&M. Lose to A&M by 21, and I think we can start panicking about the season being over. We also know, barring some crazy circumstance like a wrecked Harley, Bielema isn't going anywhere, so get over it and stop making non-contextual Petrino/Bielema comparisons.
Clearly Petrino is a better offensive coach. Bielema's supposedly higher ceiling is based on the idea that he can get it done on both sides of the ball.
What we've seen in the past 5 years is recruiting imbalances in places where we shouldn't have imbalances, namely the offensive line. We have a Danish rugby player starting at guard, after all.
Petrino had some pretty serious defensive weaknesses, especially at linebacker, but his teams still got it done on offense, so we won a bunch of games.
I'm not saying Bielema is going to get it done. I don't expect him to. The excitement at the time of his hiring, and the reason for his success at Wisconsin, was due to having a solid, all-around football team. We all know we were never going to have that with Petrino, who couldn't recruit defense to save his life. I hope Bielema can turn it around, because he still has a high ceiling based on his past performance, but he has to recruit better. The current roster is unacceptable. Anyone who says the talent is there clearly hasn't watched games the past year-plus. The talent isn't there. We have linemen getting run over, defensive backs getting run past like they are standing still, and receivers who can't even run a route.
Maybe all this youth will develop and grow up real fast, but that isn't likely. I suspect we'll have a new coach in 2019.
With all that being said, the 2010/2011 Arkansas teams found an SEC West with 2 great teams each year (2010 Bama was a great team, even though they lost 4 games) and not much else, which Petrino used to his advantage to the tune of 21 wins. We weren't close to a championship, though. Had he not been a scumbag, I don't think we would be winning national championships every year; I think we'd be winning 7-9 games every year. Bielema isn't doing that, so hats off to Petrino.
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Been10Hog

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Re: Apples and Oranges
« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2017, 11:12:12 am »

The number of wins and losses is the ultimate measuring stick.  Bill Parcells once said, "You are what your record says you are."

Oklahoma will probably hold TCU to 28 points.  Oklahoma State may also.
That is so cliché. So you fire Bielema for not winning 9-10 games like Petrino did in 2011 when 4 of the teams Petrino beat fired their coaches and 9 of the teams Bielema faced went to bowl games. The whole point of this post was that you cannot compare the two. Thus the Apples to Oranges.
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Etowah

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Re: Apples and Oranges
« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2017, 11:24:33 am »

I see the point made by the OP...but the schedule this year is not nearly as tough and the names on the front of the jersey would lead you to believe.

Truthfully...the schedule in 2011 was really only Alabama and LSU.  South Carolina had QB issues, and when we played them, they had already clinched a very weak East division and played as if they did not care.  They were looking forward to the Championship game.


Frank Broyles had good records with extremely weak schedules.  We did not complain.  We like to win.  Truth is, many seasons it was Texas and Arkansas as the only good teams in the SWC. 

Bielema definitely has a tougher task...but this would be a good year to be good...because this is not nearly as tough as it has been or could be in the future. 

It would be nice to be really good when the schedule is not so tough...that is what Petrino was able to do.
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HogFaninMemphis

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Re: Apples and Oranges
« Reply #35 on: September 18, 2017, 11:25:42 am »

I see the point made by the OP...but the schedule this year is not nearly as tough and the names on the front of the jersey would lead you to believe.

Truthfully...the schedule in 2011 was really only Alabama and LSU.  South Carolina had QB issues, and when we played them, they had already clinched a very weak East division and played as if they did not care.  They were looking forward to the Championship game.


Frank Broyles had good records with extremely weak schedules.  We did not complain.  We like to win.  Truth is, many seasons it was Texas and Arkansas as the only good teams in the SWC. 

Bielema definitely has a tougher task...but this would be a good year to be good...because this is not nearly as tough as it has been or could be in the future. 

It would be nice to be really good when the schedule is not so tough...that is what Petrino was able to do.

well put
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Been10Hog

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Re: Apples and Oranges
« Reply #36 on: September 18, 2017, 11:32:22 am »

I see the point made by the OP...but the schedule this year is not nearly as tough and the names on the front of the jersey would lead you to believe.

Truthfully...the schedule in 2011 was really only Alabama and LSU.  South Carolina had QB issues, and when we played them, they had already clinched a very weak East division and played as if they did not care.  They were looking forward to the Championship game.


Frank Broyles had good records with extremely weak schedules.  We did not complain.  We like to win.  Truth is, many seasons it was Texas and Arkansas as the only good teams in the SWC. 

Bielema definitely has a tougher task...but this would be a good year to be good...because this is not nearly as tough as it has been or could be in the future. 

It would be nice to be really good when the schedule is not so tough...that is what Petrino was able to do.
That was exactly my point!! Thank you.

Talent is the difference. Overall SEC talent has improved throughout the conference. That is why SEC dominates NFL draft. Petrino's problem here was his offense was so QB dependant, and still is. If Mallett was off we had a tough time winning. If we played a team with better talent, like Bama or LSU we had a hard time holding out the pass rush and receivers getting separation. Honey badger and Patrick Patterson ate our lunch. Clemson did it to Lamar Jackson and so will Florida State! Players win! Those schools have the best players and win most of the time. Saban isn't that great! If BP was there and had the best QB recruits, best receivers and best linemen he would be dominating! True measure of a coach is what you do when you have equal or less talent, not when your guys are clearly bigger and faster! Saban's Big 10record at Mich St was 9-14. Dolphins 15-17. Bama made a commitment to get the best players and they have the resources to do it.

We will never get the #1 receiver in Chicago, the #1 OT out of San Diego or DT from New York unless the WR grandpa is Scottie Pippen and OT's grandpa is Lance Alworth.
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Gonzo

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Re: Apples and Oranges
« Reply #37 on: September 18, 2017, 11:33:04 am »

That is so cliché. So you fire Bielema for not winning 9-10 games like Petrino did in 2011 when 4 of the teams Petrino beat fired their coaches and 9 of the teams Bielema faced went to bowl games. The whole point of this post was that you cannot compare the two. Thus the Apples to Oranges.


You think the comparisons aren't valid, others disagree, neither view makes it absolutely so. As another poster pointed out, when a coach's record is better, simple math tells us his opponents' records will be worse, and vice versa. Count me in the latter group, the comparisons are valid. The Hogs can do quite a bit better in the HC's office imo. Since he's already there I'd like to see BB do it, but I have major doubts at this point.


Go Hogs!
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