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Author Topic: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965  (Read 2081 times)

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PonderinHog

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #100 on: September 18, 2017, 10:34:34 pm »

Pssst...Wilson...I think you hurt his feelings.
I'd comment, but my post count is already too high.  Besides, between you and Wilson, I'd say he's been adequately eviscerated.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 10:49:47 pm by PonderinHog »
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bphi11ips

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #101 on: September 18, 2017, 10:37:59 pm »

I'd comment, but my post count is already too high.  Besides, between you and Wilson, I'd see he's been adequately eviscerated.

Maybe he just took his ball and went home. 
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Arkansas Traveler

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #102 on: September 18, 2017, 10:38:29 pm »

Pssst...Wilson...I think you hurt his feelings.

Disappeared like a fart in the wind.
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WizardofhOgZ

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #103 on: September 19, 2017, 12:20:32 am »

At the link are final AP rankings from 1937 through 2010.  If you are a child of the BCS age forward, you should view this with the understanding that AP rankings were the measuring stick for college football on a national basis well into the 21st century.  These rankings accurately reflected the entire nation's consensus and media view on the best college football teams in the country at the highest level. 

These historic rankings confirm the comparative strength of the SWC over time with other major conferences.  There appears to be a lot of confusion over whether the SWC was a "major" conference.  It was, and a look here will confirm not only that it was, but that at any given time every team in the conference had some pretty good teams.  That should not surprise anyone today given the status of every team but Rice, which pretty much abandoned commitment to football after the 70s and SMU, which pretty much did the same thing after it became, in 1987, the only team in the history of the NCAA to have its football program banned from competition for cheating. 

It's easy to claim on a message board that the SWC was an inferior football conference.  It's not so easy to sustain that claim when faced with these rankings.

By the time Arkansas left the SWC to join the SEC, the handwriting was on the wall.  The SEC's best years on the national front, and from top to bottom, have by far been the years since Arkansas joined.  I believe that Broyles felt the winds of change and that Arkansas's switch helped drive the shift in balance of power, regardless of whether Arkansas itself contributed much in the rankings itself. 

This fanbase needs to look at the long history of college football and Arkansas's true place in it and exercise a little more patience.     

Good post.  A couple of comments in response.

I don't want to hijack the thread - and won't.  I will just say that while I agree that the AP (and UPICoaches' poll, for that matter), were and remain the respected "authority" for week to week rankings over the years, the notable and glaring exception is when it came to naming their "mythical" national champions over the years.  There are many seasons when they disagree with each other on the Champion, and - as we know - they both failed to vote AFTER the Bowls for more than a decade after college football fans and the media at large absolutely considered those games meaningful in terms of determining a Champion.  So, ironically, while those polls have always been the 'gold standard' for weekly rankings, they only do a so-so job at naming Champions.

On the point of the SWC being an "inferior" conference to the SEC (and, therefore, our "golden years' success not meaning as much as many still think it did), there are a couple of things to consider.  One, as your links point out, is that the true decay of the SWC didn't really happen until the late 70's and - in particular - the early 80's.  By the time 1990 rolled around, there was no doubt that, except for Texas and Arkansas (and sometimes, A&M, SMU or Houston), the conference was not nearly what it once was.  But in the 50's and 60's, the conference was much stronger than most give it credit for.

The other side of that equation is that the SEC of 40-50 years ago was not nearly as strong - top to bottom - as it is today.  It was top-heavy with Alabama most every year, and then a strong "second tier" of Georgia, Tennessee and - sometimes - Auburn.  But many programs that are strong today were not so in the 60's and 70's.  Florida, in particular, was a bottom feeder most of that time.  Miss. state was too.  Ole Miss was very strong in the 50's and early 60's, then fell off quite a bit.  LSU was up and down, languishing in the 70's.  Tulane was a SEC team in the 60's.  And that was pretty much it.

Also, the SEC had a very unstable system of determining champions.  Even though the league was 10 teams then, they sometimes only played 7 conference games a year, and they frequently didn't alternate who was home and away.  And even with more teams than conference games, Alabama curiously was allowed to play non-conference teams and count them as SEC games from time to time.

Take 1964, for example (NOT by coincidence, the year Alabama claims they own the National Championship because they were number 1 and we were number 2 in the "final' poll (before the Bowls), and then lost to Texas in the Sugar Bowl while we beat Nebraska.  Did you know that big, bad Alabama only played TWO of their 8 SEC games outside of Alabama?

Yeah, that Bear was a hell of a coach . . . and a hell of a scheduler, too.
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Piggfoot

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #104 on: September 19, 2017, 02:10:46 pm »

Good post.  A couple of comments in response.

I don't want to hijack the thread - and won't.  I will just say that while I agree that the AP (and UPICoaches' poll, for that matter), were and remain the respected "authority" for week to week rankings over the years, the notable and glaring exception is when it came to naming their "mythical" national champions over the years.  There are many seasons when they disagree with each other on the Champion, and - as we know - they both failed to vote AFTER the Bowls for more than a decade after college football fans and the media at large absolutely considered those games meaningful in terms of determining a Champion.  So, ironically, while those polls have always been the 'gold standard' for weekly rankings, they only do a so-so job at naming Champions.

On the point of the SWC being an "inferior" conference to the SEC (and, therefore, our "golden years' success not meaning as much as many still think it did), there are a couple of things to consider.  One, as your links point out, is that the true decay of the SWC didn't really happen until the late 70's and - in particular - the early 80's.  By the time 1990 rolled around, there was no doubt that, except for Texas and Arkansas (and sometimes, A&M, SMU or Houston), the conference was not nearly what it once was.  But in the 50's and 60's, the conference was much stronger than most give it credit for.

The other side of that equation is that the SEC of 40-50 years ago was not nearly as strong - top to bottom - as it is today.  It was top-heavy with Alabama most every year, and then a strong "second tier" of Georgia, Tennessee and - sometimes - Auburn.  But many programs that are strong today were not so in the 60's and 70's.  Florida, in particular, was a bottom feeder most of that time.  Miss. state was too.  Ole Miss was very strong in the 50's and early 60's, then fell off quite a bit.  LSU was up and down, languishing in the 70's.  Tulane was a SEC team in the 60's.  And that was pretty much it.

Also, the SEC had a very unstable system of determining champions.  Even though the league was 10 teams then, they sometimes only played 7 conference games a year, and they frequently didn't alternate who was home and away.  And even with more teams than conference games, Alabama curiously was allowed to play non-conference teams and count them as SEC games from time to time.

Take 1964, for example (NOT by coincidence, the year Alabama claims they own the National Championship because they were number 1 and we were number 2 in the "final' poll (before the Bowls), and then lost to Texas in the Sugar Bowl while we beat Nebraska.  Did you know that big, bad Alabama only played TWO of their 8 SEC games outside of Alabama?

Yeah, that Bear was a hell of a coach . . . and a hell of a scheduler, too.
There is always a problem with comparing records of College football from the past to the present. That problem is the athletes in those teams.
The intergration of black athletes into predominately white programs changed things forever. Because of that the above comparison is flawed.
The Black athletes in the Gulf coastal states and in the Northern cities to which many migrated for improved jobs, Upped the grade of football compared to that which was played prior.
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bphi11ips

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #105 on: September 19, 2017, 02:15:20 pm »

Good post.  A couple of comments in response.

I don't want to hijack the thread - and won't.  I will just say that while I agree that the AP (and UPICoaches' poll, for that matter), were and remain the respected "authority" for week to week rankings over the years, the notable and glaring exception is when it came to naming their "mythical" national champions over the years.  There are many seasons when they disagree with each other on the Champion, and - as we know - they both failed to vote AFTER the Bowls for more than a decade after college football fans and the media at large absolutely considered those games meaningful in terms of determining a Champion.  So, ironically, while those polls have always been the 'gold standard' for weekly rankings, they only do a so-so job at naming Champions.

On the point of the SWC being an "inferior" conference to the SEC (and, therefore, our "golden years' success not meaning as much as many still think it did), there are a couple of things to consider.  One, as your links point out, is that the true decay of the SWC didn't really happen until the late 70's and - in particular - the early 80's.  By the time 1990 rolled around, there was no doubt that, except for Texas and Arkansas (and sometimes, A&M, SMU or Houston), the conference was not nearly what it once was.  But in the 50's and 60's, the conference was much stronger than most give it credit for.

The other side of that equation is that the SEC of 40-50 years ago was not nearly as strong - top to bottom - as it is today.  It was top-heavy with Alabama most every year, and then a strong "second tier" of Georgia, Tennessee and - sometimes - Auburn.  But many programs that are strong today were not so in the 60's and 70's.  Florida, in particular, was a bottom feeder most of that time.  Miss. state was too.  Ole Miss was very strong in the 50's and early 60's, then fell off quite a bit.  LSU was up and down, languishing in the 70's.  Tulane was a SEC team in the 60's.  And that was pretty much it.

Also, the SEC had a very unstable system of determining champions.  Even though the league was 10 teams then, they sometimes only played 7 conference games a year, and they frequently didn't alternate who was home and away.  And even with more teams than conference games, Alabama curiously was allowed to play non-conference teams and count them as SEC games from time to time.

Take 1964, for example (NOT by coincidence, the year Alabama claims they own the National Championship because they were number 1 and we were number 2 in the "final' poll (before the Bowls), and then lost to Texas in the Sugar Bowl while we beat Nebraska.  Did you know that big, bad Alabama only played TWO of their 8 SEC games outside of Alabama?

Yeah, that Bear was a hell of a coach . . . and a hell of a scheduler, too.

Excellent post...and very accurate on the old SEC.
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hogcard1964

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #106 on: September 19, 2017, 02:21:12 pm »

If I am remembering correctly, the collective eyebrows of Arkansas fans started to raise soon after the Orange Bowl in 1978. Lou appeared on the Johnny Carson show, as a byproduct of enforcing his "Do-Right" in the suspensions of Ben Cowins, Michael Forrest, and Donny Bobo, and of subsequently beating the Oklahoma Sooners in the Orange Bowl. Lou made the comment on the Carson show that Fayetteville "isn't the end of the world, but you can see it from there." Didn't sit well with some folks back home. Not really good PR.

Over time, the perception became that the program was slipping, and the numbers sort of bore that out. From 1977 through 1979, we went a combined 30-5-1 (an average of 10 wins a year); from 1980 through 1983, we went 30-16-1 (an average of 7.5 wins a year). There was some thought that he couldn't recruit, but that really started to be the narrative when Keith Jackson announced for OU and Richard Brothers (who at the time was the only Arkansas schoolboy athlete in history to win the state decathlon twice, and would have won it three times were it not for a knee injury) was leaning toward Memphis (there is a famous local story about the day Holtz came to Rivercrest to meet Richard. In the context of a conversation with Richard's high school coach on the drive in from the airport, Holtz remarked, "He's white?? What do you mean he's white?" Had no idea, I suppose.). There was also a perception, which I seem to remember reading in an Orville Henry column, that Holtz wasn't too fond of that part of the job that called for him to associate with Arkansas boosters. The endorsement of Helms didn't help, but in and of itself probably wouldn't have mattered much had we been winning at a high level.

I had the privilege of hearing Lou speak in Blytheville a few years ago. He flatly denied that he was "burned out" when he left Arkansas, and asserted that he had no idea why JFB fired him. Still seemed a little upset by the whole thing.

At any rate, 1977 through 1979 sure was fun.

Great post.  I remember watching him live on the Tonight Show.  That '77 Orange Bowl was one of our all time high points.  That was great, GREAT football.
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bphi11ips

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #107 on: September 19, 2017, 02:21:59 pm »

There is always a problem with comparing records of College football from the past to the present. That problem is the athletes in those teams.
The intergration of black athletes into predominately white programs changed things forever. Because of that the above comparison is flawed.
The Black athletes in the Gulf coastal states and in the Northern cities to which many migrated for improved jobs, Upped the grade of football compared to that which was played prior.

Your point is well taken and something I've mentioned as well.  But I really think what you're saying is that it is very difficult to compare the teams of the pre-integration era to the teams of the post-integration era.  That's very true.  However, the programs that consistently dominated college football pre-integration have dominated post-integration as well.  That isn't a perfect statement, but it is generally true.  Without integration you probably don't have Miami in the 80s.  Other than Miami, the usual suspects have ruled.  What did change was the way the game itself was played, but again, the usual suspects just changed with the times. 
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DeltaBoy

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #108 on: September 19, 2017, 03:34:53 pm »

if he just wins the last two games in 2016, then the fan base is not this irritated

Amen if they won those 2 folks would be as happy as a baby with a sucker.
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Etowah

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #109 on: September 19, 2017, 05:20:57 pm »

Prior to joining the SEC, Arkansas probably played the weakest schedule of any consistently ranked team in the country.

The OOC schedule was usually very weak and the SWC was a terrible conference.

We did not have to schedule good teams, we sold out every game. 

Broyles built his reputation and record on weak teams.

I have been a fan since the mid 60's.  I did not care about the schedule.  I liked winning and the fact we were competing with Texas year in and year out for the SWC championship.

One reason our bowl record is so poor, we were usually overrated during the regular season because of our weak schedule.
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phadedhawg

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #110 on: September 19, 2017, 06:07:41 pm »

Ken Hatfield was the first coach I can remember.  The OPs post pretty much lines up with my Razorback experience.  Running off a coach is about the only thing that reinvigorates the fan base.  We have similar results year by year but a new coach always gets us hype that it will go differently this time. 

For our current situation, Bert needs a fire lit under him for the lackluster play on the field.  When we play a decent team, we look like one of those directional schools from Louisiana.  I can accept the losses but I'd prefer to see us still play competently in defeat.  The offensive line woes ruin any enjoyment I could have on a Saturday watching the Hogs.   
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bphi11ips

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #111 on: September 19, 2017, 08:40:26 pm »

Prior to joining the SEC, Arkansas probably played the weakest schedule of any consistently ranked team in the country.

The OOC schedule was usually very weak and the SWC was a terrible conference.

We did not have to schedule good teams, we sold out every game. 

Broyles built his reputation and record on weak teams.

I have been a fan since the mid 60's.  I did not care about the schedule.  I liked winning and the fact we were competing with Texas year in and year out for the SWC championship.

One reason our bowl record is so poor, we were usually overrated during the regular season because of our weak schedule.

Cool story, bro.  Nice of you to pop in and give us your credentials.  The first season I remember well was 1968. 

Here are actual numbers:

Arkansas finished 10-1 and beat undefeated (but twice tied) Georgia in the 1969 Sugar Bowl 16-2.  The Hogs' SOS in 1968 was 33 of 118 teams:

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/schools/arkansas/1968.html

The link is to a great resource published by Saturday Down South.  You can find a lot of cool stuff in that database.  Here is some of that cool stuff:

Arkansas Average SOS 1960-1969       44 (This happens to be what it was in 1964)
Arkansas Average SOS 1998-2007       30
Alabama Average SOS 1960-1969        28

All of the above SOS's are based pretty much on 120 teams. 

So yeah, you want to make a big deal out of 44 vs. 28 or 30?  Go ahead.  The media made a big deal out of the tougher schedules in the Big 10 in the 60s.  Where were the population centers then?  Joe Paterno threw a fit about Arkansas's "weak" schedule in 1969. The Nittany Lion's SOS was 54, two places tougher than the Razorbacks, just like Penn State's average SOS for the 60s - 42.

How about Woody Hayes in the 60s?  31
Bo Schembechler?  22
Darrell Royal? 29

I could go on but that's a pretty good list of legendary coaches from the 60s and one not so legendary Arkansas coach who happens to currently be its longest tenured SEC coach.  They all established their reputations based upon SOS's ranging from 22-44.

Frank Broyles may have had a slightly easier schedule than his contemporaries, but not by the margin you and others on this board who spread the "Arkansas built its tradition on the backs of a weak conference and weak opponents" myth.

Judge for yourself.  Those are real numbers.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2017, 09:35:33 pm by bphi11ips »
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wachhog

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #112 on: September 19, 2017, 09:09:06 pm »

I know Arkansas fans very well.

I was born and raised in Arkansas, and did 2 degrees at the U of A.

Hog fans will be forever cursed by the legacy of 1964.

There's a story that I've read in a few places, most recently in a tribute article to Frank Broyles.

Broyles, fresh off an undefeated 1964 season walked into the office of Arkansas Athletic Director John Barnhill.

Expecting praise, Broyles was stunned when Barnhill said. "You've just screwed up the best job in America."

Here's a link to a 1998 Demo-zette story about Broyles with that story included in it.

http://www.arkansasonline.com/news/1998/nov/08/seeking-majestic-high-mans-game/

Broyles had screwed up by delivering an undefeated season. And from then on, that's what Hog fans would expect, no matter what reality might have to say otherwise.

I have personally watched this expectation ruin season after season for Hog fans, ever since I can remember.

Arkansas has had exactly three 11-win seasons in its entire history of football, spanning back to 1894.

Arkansas has not been one of the "elite" teams in college football, save for that brief span back in the 1960s.

But every year, Hog fans get angry that they are not among the elite.

I've seen it over and over and over. When I was younger, I was one of the fans who would get angry because the Hogs were NOT among the elite. But season after season has shown me the error of my young-man thinking.

Now, I am NOT defending Bielema here. Fire Bielema all you want. But I want to point out something regarding an idea I've seen stated over and over on this board.

Lots of folks are hollering "Fire Bielema!" because the Hogs are about a .500 team under him. Folks in favor of firing Bielema often point to Bobby Petrino, and yearn for the days when Arkansas was "relevant."

Of course, "being relevant" with Bobby Petrino meant finishing, at best, 2nd or 3rd in the SEC West, and failing in the only BCS Bowl the Hogs ever played in.

Folks then holler, "Hey, that's better than Bielema! I WISH we were good enough to finish 2nd or 3rd in the SEC West!"

Oh Hog fans. I know you better than that.

I know how you react to coaches who get only  to "second rate" and never progress to 1964 standards.

Check that 1998 article I linked. All Ken Hatfield did was win a pair of Conference Championships, and win 76% of his games, never win fewer than 7 games, and post three 10-win seasons.

Hog fans grew frustrated because Hatfield couldn't replicate Broyles' 1964 mark. Broyles himself grew frustrated with it, according to the 1998 Demo-zette article. And thus Hatfield was run off to Clemson.

Houston Dale Nutt (whom I don't particularly like) won 61% of his games, coached in a pair of SEC title games, and got Arkansas to 7 bowl games.

Folks would claim that they would LOVE it if Bielema could replicate Houston Nutt's level of success.

But I know Hog fans better. Despite Nutt's wins, Hog fans came to dislike him because he could not reach 1964 type success. Late in Nutt's career, one poster on this board started using  a little image based on the "We Are Marshall" movie, only with a Hog player with the caption "We Are Mediocre!"

Of course, "We Are Mediocre" has been a very accurate description for the vast majority of Hog football seasons stretching back to 1894. But don't tell Hog fans that. They'll point to 1964!

Bobby Petrino won about 67% of his games at Arkansas. Never beat Alabama. Never reached an SEC title game.  Did  have one 10-win season (same as Nutt, 2 fewer than Hatfield) and one 11-win season. First such season since 1978 for Arkansas.

Some yearn and pine for the Bobby Petrino days. Of course, Petrino "benefited" from being fired for being a slimy lying bastage relatively early, in that he didn't stick around long enough for Hog fans to get tired of him bringing Arkansas to the brink of 1964-success, but like all the other coaches since Broyles, failing to actually achieve it.

And that's the point of this post.

Arkansas fans can holler all they want about wishing the team was good enough to finish 2nd or 3rd in the SEC West.

But I know better. History shows me better.

Hog fans are haunted by the ghost of 1964. And will always be angry and disappointed when they fail to reach that level of success, despite decades upon decades of proof that Arkansas simply isn't the kind of program where that level of expectation is warranted.

And even coaches who win 76% of their games, or 61% of their games will 100% guaranteed be run off or fired for not reaching 1964-levels, if they stay much beyond 5 or 6 seasons.

That's why it doesn't matter who coaches Arkansas. Because Hog fans want so badly to go back in time 53 years, they will happily run off any coach who achieves okay results, but doesn't achieve perfection.

I present Holtz, Hatfield and Nutt as exhibits A, B, and C.

And Arkansas most certainly is the type of program where 1964-type success happens exactly once in 123 years, and counting, counting, counting. Okay, but not great results are pretty much the top-end ceiling for Arkansas football.

But tons of Hog fans simply refuse to accept that truth. And thus it's the same old thing.

Fire Coach A! Replace him with Coach B! Fire Coach B! Replace him with Coach C! And the wheel spins and spins and spins.

On and on, with no end, and no realistic chance of it ending, all because Hog fans simply cannot get over 1964.
I probably know you, since when we were on the hill,  almost everybody knew everybody else regardless of what class one was in. . And I could  not disagree with you more.
With a few exceptions, under Petrino there was always the chance that we could win. Under him, the game was exciting. The atmosphere was electric.
Under BB, it is not. I feel like he brought his teams to paint. He is not exciting as a person. There is no feeling that he has the genius to innovate, to come up with the schemes that play to our strengths and exploit the weaknesses of  other teams. He cannot keep assistants, so there is no continuity. Some of those he hires are utterly lacking in qualifications.
Why on earth would a recruit with other offers from equal schools play for an overseer of  a program  like that? And one whom we are paying over $4 million to boot?
I fee sorry for our players.
Arkansas should at least try to do better.
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snoblind

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #113 on: September 20, 2017, 12:07:45 pm »

Of the myths that get tossed out around this place the one that Frank got rid of coaches because he didn't want them to better his record is the most amusing.

A few other random facts. 

The primary factor behind Broyles bowl record was he considered them to be a reward for a good season and winning them wasn't a priority.  The priority which he inherited from Barnie was winning the SWC.  That's where the scheduling of OSU and Tulsa as home games to begin the season came in.  Worked out the kinks at home before conference kicked in.

When it comes to Holtz the bloom was off the rose for some boosters before the 77 season started.  Always remember the frowns of several donors at Chism Reed banquet that spring.  His schtick played well for a high school senior (me), for others not so much.  IIRC, my dad's verdict was WTH was Frank thinking?  As long he won big, things were OK.  When he didn't, add the high school coaches/recruiting in and the writing was on the wall.

Hatfield had a contract on his desk when Frank took off to Augusta, but he chose to take off to Clemson.  Going to that tournament cost JFB a couple of times.   
 
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Sweet Feet

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #114 on: September 20, 2017, 12:46:06 pm »

  The primary factor behind Broyles bowl record was he considered them to be a reward for a good season and winning them wasn't a priority.

 if that were the case, the same could be said about Bear Bryant in 1964 when Alabama won the 2 major polls titles and lost in the bowl game. Alabama would be considered the true champion of 1964 since they were already crowned and the bowls didn't mean anything to Bear Bryant at that point. JFB knew there was only one shot at having a shared title and that was to win the Cotton Bowl and hope for a Bama bowl loss since the FWAA awarded champions after bowls. 

Then go to 1965 when the AP and UPI polls crowned their champions after bowl season, Arkansas was ranked #2 before bowl season and winning would have boosted their chances at a legit title. #1 and #3 had lost in the bowl games. Arkansas had a shot for an outright national title and what happens? They lose to an 7-3 LSU team.

So i don't buy JFB not seeing bowl games as a priority.
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snoblind

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #115 on: September 20, 2017, 12:55:11 pm »

if that were the case, the same could be said about Bear Bryant in 1964 when Alabama won the 2 major polls titles and lost in the bowl game. Alabama would be considered the true champion of 1964 since they were already crowned and the bowls didn't mean anything to Bear Bryant at that point. JFB knew there was only one shot at having a shared title and that was to win the Cotton Bowl and hope for a Bama bowl loss since the FWAA awarded champions after bowls. 

Then go to 1965 when the AP and UPI polls crowned their champions after bowl season, Arkansas was ranked #2 before bowl season and winning would have boosted their chances at a legit title. #1 and #3 had lost in the bowl games. Arkansas had a shot for an outright national title and what happens? They lose to an 7-3 LSU team.

So i don't buy JFB not seeing bowl games as a priority.

Don't care what you buy.  It is what it is.  You threw a bunch of crap out there.  Expect to be called on it by folks who were actually around.
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Sweet Feet

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #116 on: September 20, 2017, 01:10:38 pm »

Don't care what you buy.  It is what it is.  You threw a bunch of crap out there.  Expect to be called on it by folks who were actually around.
Couldn't refute the point of course, but this is hogville. The crap you threw out is nothing more than a mere opinion not based on anything. JFB knew bowl games were important, hince the title implications in 64 and 65. he just sucked or choked in bowl games. And that's a fact. No matter how hard you try to defend him
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hoghiker

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #117 on: September 20, 2017, 01:29:08 pm »

Few people are going to agree with this but I believe that Arkansas has generally done more with less than just about any other major university in college football. We have over achieved. Not under achieved.Yep we have a few wealthy people. But we are a very poor sate in a very poor region of the country. Our population is low. Very low. We've built some nice facilities. So have a lot of people. Arkansas has nothing to be ashamed of. We've done well with what we got. I'm proud to be a graduate of UA. Proud of being a third generation Razorback fan. I get as mad as anyone with the "Hog curse" but its a lot easier to manage when I reflect on the reality of our football history.
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snoblind

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #118 on: September 20, 2017, 02:37:06 pm »

Couldn't refute the point of course, but this is hogville. The crap you threw out is nothing more than a mere opinion not based on anything. JFB knew bowl games were important, hince the title implications in 64 and 65. he just sucked or choked in bowl games. And that's a fact. No matter how hard you try to defend him

What I threw out came specifically from JFB himself.  He's the one who said that he looked at bowl games as rewards for his players and considered the regular season more important.  Notice the use of "more."

Why defend him?  Simply repeating what actually was said or happened.  No need to bother refuting your point since it fall apart on its own - you can't even tell the difference between opinion and fact.

Keep on digging.  It's amusing to watch.
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Hogs49ers

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #119 on: September 20, 2017, 02:44:34 pm »



I admit I haven't had time to do the math, what with keeping the neighbors' kids off my lawn and all, but I'm pretty sure 1963 wasn't anywhere near 53 years ago.

The above bolded part really annoyed me and brought back some bad memories from childhood lol. 

We used to play a backyard football game every Saturday on my parent's front lawn, and every once in awhile, the ball would go into my neighbors yard.  He would get extremely pissed and would go talk to my parents and tell them to keep us off his grass because apparently when he would go to cut his grass, the grass would be uneven and not cut evenly...One day he literally was looking out the window when we were playing and as soon as the ball landed in his yard, he ran out there and grabbed it and took it inside.  I will never forget my mother going down to his house and laying into him, it was amazing! :)
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WizardofhOgZ

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #120 on: September 20, 2017, 05:53:14 pm »

Don't care what you buy.  It is what it is.  You threw a bunch of crap out there.  Expect to be called on it by folks who were actually around.

I was around, and I disagree with this.  We didn't have a good record in Bowl games because we pretty much played teams about as good as we were, and it was a 50-50 affair (Frank won 4 of 10 Bowl games in an era when it meant a LOT just to get into a Bowl game; he had two different 2 loss teams that didn't go to ANY Bowl!).  Included in those losses were setbacks to #1 Alabama, #3 Ole Miss, and a 3 loss LSU team that was favored to win the SEC but had a lot of critical early season injuries and they were all healthy for the Cotton Bowl game.  Also, wins over #4 Georgia and #6 Nebraska.  All in all, we did about what was expected in Bowl games; maybe slightly under-performed.  But even the losses to the high powered opponents were very close games, so that's deceptive as well.

That aside, I know that Bowl games were viewed with much more importance by the time the early 60's came around - especially if there was something riding on it.  If you had a 7-3 team playing a 6 or 7 win team in the Sun or Liberty Bowl - sure, they might soak up the local hospitality and the distractions might make the game somewhat different than a "normal" game.  But for New years Day games (of which there were exactly FOUR), all of the participants (with rare exceptions) were Top 10 teams and/or Conference Champions with high rankings, so there was a LOT on the line.  Those games were definitely viewed as huge, and prepared for accordingly. 

For example, in 1964, there was a LOT of talk about different scenarios for the National Championship (the "real" one - the one after all the games AND Bowls had been played).  If Alabama won, they would be Champions regardless of what Arkansas did (they were the only only 2 undefeated teams left) due to the convention of the day, which was if you have 2  undefeated teams ranked high, and both beat quality opponents, almost 100% of the time they stayed in that order even if number two won their game handily, while the top ranked team narrowly escaped.  On the other hand, if Alabama lost and Arkansas won (which, or course, is what happened), it was a no-brainer that Arkansas would be named #1, especially since they would be the only undefeated team left standing, AND also had already beaten one of the other primary contenders - Texas.  If BOTH Alabama and Arkansas lost, then Texas - who would have beaten Alabama in that scenario - would have a great shot as they were also the defending National Champions and no one would have a better record.  Notre Dame and Michigan - both also with one loss, but not participating in a Bowl game - would get lesser support if there was no undefeated team after the Bowls.

The above is what college football fans talked about and debated for the 5 weeks between Thanksgiving and New Year's Day.  Not just Arkansas fans, either.  I lived in West Texas at the time, and discussed this with fans of many different teams and conferences.  It was like that every year - though the teams and specific situations changed, of course.  One of the unique and fun parts of College football - the "mythical" National Champions and how they were selected, based on a jumble of factors and unpredictable Bowl match-ups (because of Conference tie-ins with the top Bowls - which almost always kept the top 2 teams from meeting each other head-to-head in a Bowl game).

Bowl games did start out as "what if" exhibitions ("What if a team from California played one of the great teams from the East, such as Army or Notre Dame?") in an era where it was NOT common for teams from different parts of the country to meet (because of logistics and cost), and then initially were rewards for great seasons back in the 20's and 30's, prior to WWII.  But after the War, as the number of Bowls slowly grew and the match-ups focused on mostly top ranked teams, the significance of the outcome absolutely mattered to the fan bases and the programs.  It just took the AP and UPI way too long to overcome Notre Dame's and the Big 10's objections to having Bowls count in the final reckoning, because those institutions wanted to limit their schools from participating in Bowls.

Pure old fashioned politics.
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lasthog

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #121 on: September 20, 2017, 11:18:52 pm »

The above bolded part really annoyed me and brought back some bad memories from childhood lol. 

We used to play a backyard football game every Saturday on my parent's front lawn, and every once in awhile, the ball would go into my neighbors yard.  He would get extremely pissed and would go talk to my parents and tell them to keep us off his grass because apparently when he would go to cut his grass, the grass would be uneven and not cut evenly...One day he literally was looking out the window when we were playing and as soon as the ball landed in his yard, he ran out there and grabbed it and took it inside.  I will never forget my mother going down to his house and laying into him, it was amazing! :)

Man, just to ease your mind, I don't run kids off from my yard. 

Perhaps I was too vague in my posts, just throwing out a line to lampoon some of us older guys/gals.

Now, I may start shaking my fist at the youngsters for driving too fast. This is a neighborhood!!!

Sorry about your childhood trauma. I must say, I do know a few folks who dealt with a few things worse than you describe, though.

Peace to all.
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lasthog

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #122 on: September 20, 2017, 11:30:02 pm »

If I am remembering correctly, the collective eyebrows of Arkansas fans started to raise soon after the Orange Bowl in 1978. Lou appeared on the Johnny Carson show, as a byproduct of enforcing his "Do-Right" in the suspensions of Ben Cowins, Michael Forrest, and Donny Bobo, and of subsequently beating the Oklahoma Sooners in the Orange Bowl. Lou made the comment on the Carson show that Fayetteville "isn't the end of the world, but you can see it from there." Didn't sit well with some folks back home. Not really good PR.

Over time, the perception became that the program was slipping, and the numbers sort of bore that out. From 1977 through 1979, we went a combined 30-5-1 (an average of 10 wins a year); from 1980 through 1983, we went 30-16-1 (an average of 7.5 wins a year). There was some thought that he couldn't recruit, but that really started to be the narrative when Keith Jackson announced for OU and Richard Brothers (who at the time was the only Arkansas schoolboy athlete in history to win the state decathlon twice, and would have won it three times were it not for a knee injury) was leaning toward Memphis (there is a famous local story about the day Holtz came to Rivercrest to meet Richard. In the context of a conversation with Richard's high school coach on the drive in from the airport, Holtz remarked, "He's white?? What do you mean he's white?" Had no idea, I suppose.). There was also a perception, which I seem to remember reading in an Orville Henry column, that Holtz wasn't too fond of that part of the job that called for him to associate with Arkansas boosters. The endorsement of Helms didn't help, but in and of itself probably wouldn't have mattered much had we been winning at a high level.

I had the privilege of hearing Lou speak in Blytheville a few years ago. He flatly denied that he was "burned out" when he left Arkansas, and asserted that he had no idea why JFB fired him. Still seemed a little upset by the whole thing.

At any rate, 1977 through 1979 sure was fun.

Wilson, great narrative.

One thing that you touched on was the direction Lou took after the '78 season.

As I recall, there was a fairly wide-spread opinion that he began using his fame and notoriety to promote Lou primarily, not the UA. This self-promotion also was seen as taking time away from recruiting.

Agree with you on the Helms deal.
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Cinco de Hogo

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #123 on: September 21, 2017, 12:44:14 am »

The narrative that Arkansas is a poor state is really getting old.  While those yankee yuppies stick their noses(pollution) in the air from their 250sq ft apartment shared with their bicycle because they can't afford a car or the parking of said car,  the average poor Arkansan is laughing his asz of from his nice three bedroom brick home on ten arces while planning a great weekend of hiking, fishing, hunting, football or just st kicking it with friends and family.  I don't know about ya'll but that's my life and I love it!  All you got to do in Arkansas to have that is work. Doesn't matter who or what you are.
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lasthog

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #124 on: September 21, 2017, 12:51:35 am »

The narrative that Arkansas is a poor state is really getting old.  While those yankee yuppies stick their noses(pollution) in the air from their 250sq ft apartment shared with their bicycle because they can't afford a car or the parking of said car,  the average poor Arkansan is laughing his asz of from his nice three bedroom brick home on ten arces while planning a great weekend of hiking, fishing, hunting, football or just st kicking it with friends and family.  I don't know about ya'll but that's my life and I love it!  All you got to do in Arkansas to have that is work. Doesn't matter who or what you are.

To be contented and happy with your circumstances and life in general is a tremendous thing. Congratulations.

May it ever be so for you.
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Hogs49ers

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #125 on: September 21, 2017, 12:57:58 am »

Man, just to ease your mind, I don't run kids off from my yard. 

Perhaps I was too vague in my posts, just throwing out a line to lampoon some of us older guys/gals.

Now, I may start shaking my fist at the youngsters for driving too fast. This is a neighborhood!!!

Sorry about your childhood trauma. I must say, I do know a few folks who dealt with a few things worse than you describe, though.

Peace to all.

All good, I was just having fun with it anyway, but it definitely did remind me of that haha.
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HoginMemphis

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #126 on: September 21, 2017, 10:02:10 am »

The narrative that Arkansas is a poor state is really getting old.  While those yankee yuppies stick their noses(pollution) in the air from their 250sq ft apartment shared with their bicycle because they can't afford a car or the parking of said car,  the average poor Arkansan is laughing his asz of from his nice three bedroom brick home on ten arces while planning a great weekend of hiking, fishing, hunting, football or just st kicking it with friends and family.  I don't know about ya'll but that's my life and I love it!  All you got to do in Arkansas to have that is work. Doesn't matter who or what you are.
Rich state, poor state. Depends on which side of the tracks you are on: east Arkansas or northwest Arkansas and LR.
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Cinco de Hogo

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #127 on: September 21, 2017, 10:16:21 am »

Rich state, poor state. Depends on which side of the tracks you are on: east Arkansas or northwest Arkansas and LR.

Anywhere in this state you can still live a good life if you direct your energy towards doing that and like I said that includes a nice home in the city or on acreage.  Farming and timber doesn't mean everyone is poor, money is just has a different meaning.
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