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Author Topic: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965  (Read 2075 times)

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oldbooniehog

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Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« on: September 16, 2017, 11:17:00 pm »

I know Arkansas fans very well.

I was born and raised in Arkansas, and did 2 degrees at the U of A.

Hog fans will be forever cursed by the legacy of 1964.

There's a story that I've read in a few places, most recently in a tribute article to Frank Broyles.

Broyles, fresh off an undefeated 1964 season walked into the office of Arkansas Athletic Director John Barnhill.

Expecting praise, Broyles was stunned when Barnhill said. "You've just screwed up the best job in America."

Here's a link to a 1998 Demo-zette story about Broyles with that story included in it.

http://www.arkansasonline.com/news/1998/nov/08/seeking-majestic-high-mans-game/

Broyles had screwed up by delivering an undefeated season. And from then on, that's what Hog fans would expect, no matter what reality might have to say otherwise.

I have personally watched this expectation ruin season after season for Hog fans, ever since I can remember.

Arkansas has had exactly three 11-win seasons in its entire history of football, spanning back to 1894.

Arkansas has not been one of the "elite" teams in college football, save for that brief span back in the 1960s.

But every year, Hog fans get angry that they are not among the elite.

I've seen it over and over and over. When I was younger, I was one of the fans who would get angry because the Hogs were NOT among the elite. But season after season has shown me the error of my young-man thinking.

Now, I am NOT defending Bielema here. Fire Bielema all you want. But I want to point out something regarding an idea I've seen stated over and over on this board.

Lots of folks are hollering "Fire Bielema!" because the Hogs are about a .500 team under him. Folks in favor of firing Bielema often point to Bobby Petrino, and yearn for the days when Arkansas was "relevant."

Of course, "being relevant" with Bobby Petrino meant finishing, at best, 2nd or 3rd in the SEC West, and failing in the only BCS Bowl the Hogs ever played in.

Folks then holler, "Hey, that's better than Bielema! I WISH we were good enough to finish 2nd or 3rd in the SEC West!"

Oh Hog fans. I know you better than that.

I know how you react to coaches who get only  to "second rate" and never progress to 1964 standards.

Check that 1998 article I linked. All Ken Hatfield did was win a pair of Conference Championships, and win 76% of his games, never win fewer than 7 games, and post three 10-win seasons.

Hog fans grew frustrated because Hatfield couldn't replicate Broyles' 1964 mark. Broyles himself grew frustrated with it, according to the 1998 Demo-zette article. And thus Hatfield was run off to Clemson.

Houston Dale Nutt (whom I don't particularly like) won 61% of his games, coached in a pair of SEC title games, and got Arkansas to 7 bowl games.

Folks would claim that they would LOVE it if Bielema could replicate Houston Nutt's level of success.

But I know Hog fans better. Despite Nutt's wins, Hog fans came to dislike him because he could not reach 1964 type success. Late in Nutt's career, one poster on this board started using  a little image based on the "We Are Marshall" movie, only with a Hog player with the caption "We Are Mediocre!"

Of course, "We Are Mediocre" has been a very accurate description for the vast majority of Hog football seasons stretching back to 1894. But don't tell Hog fans that. They'll point to 1964!

Bobby Petrino won about 67% of his games at Arkansas. Never beat Alabama. Never reached an SEC title game.  Did  have one 10-win season (same as Nutt, 2 fewer than Hatfield) and one 11-win season. First such season since 1978 for Arkansas.

Some yearn and pine for the Bobby Petrino days. Of course, Petrino "benefited" from being fired for being a slimy lying bastage relatively early, in that he didn't stick around long enough for Hog fans to get tired of him bringing Arkansas to the brink of 1964-success, but like all the other coaches since Broyles, failing to actually achieve it.

And that's the point of this post.

Arkansas fans can holler all they want about wishing the team was good enough to finish 2nd or 3rd in the SEC West.

But I know better. History shows me better.

Hog fans are haunted by the ghost of 1964. And will always be angry and disappointed when they fail to reach that level of success, despite decades upon decades of proof that Arkansas simply isn't the kind of program where that level of expectation is warranted.

And even coaches who win 76% of their games, or 61% of their games will 100% guaranteed be run off or fired for not reaching 1964-levels, if they stay much beyond 5 or 6 seasons.

That's why it doesn't matter who coaches Arkansas. Because Hog fans want so badly to go back in time 53 years, they will happily run off any coach who achieves okay results, but doesn't achieve perfection.

I present Holtz, Hatfield and Nutt as exhibits A, B, and C.

And Arkansas most certainly is the type of program where 1964-type success happens exactly once in 123 years, and counting, counting, counting. Okay, but not great results are pretty much the top-end ceiling for Arkansas football.

But tons of Hog fans simply refuse to accept that truth. And thus it's the same old thing.

Fire Coach A! Replace him with Coach B! Fire Coach B! Replace him with Coach C! And the wheel spins and spins and spins.

On and on, with no end, and no realistic chance of it ending, all because Hog fans simply cannot get over 1964.

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rtr

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2017, 11:19:36 pm »

Well, let's just leave the SEC and join Conference USA.
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ShadowHawg

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2017, 11:22:08 pm »

Reality is that without high expectations you have zero chance to be successful.
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tusked

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2017, 11:40:01 pm »

Well, let's just leave the SEC and join Conference USA.

Lower ticket prices and throw a big party saturday afternoons in the stadium.
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tlmack

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2017, 11:43:26 pm »

This is one of the best and realistic posts I have ever seen in Hogville! Spot on !
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rtr

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2017, 11:43:45 pm »

Lower ticket prices and throw a big party saturday afternoons in the stadium.
Beats what we got now.
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code red

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2017, 11:56:06 pm »

Yes.  It's possible he deserves fired.…"I am going to bring Arkansas Fans something they have never had.". Lol..Bobby said .."we are gonna run it when we want to and when we need to.  We are going to throw it when we want to and we need to.".  Now I ask you.  Whose full of it.
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010HogFan

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2017, 12:01:35 am »

who else would want Bielema right now? What other school? maybe Baylor and that's it? I guarantee you if you brought his name up in a coaching search right now you would get laughed out of the room. We aren't blinded by 1964, we can see very clearly what is going on and know when it's time for a change.
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luke hawg

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2017, 12:11:17 am »

Brilliant post! This needs to be moved up top for all to read. We are our own worst enemy. We will continue to fire coaches so the hype can be started all over again. It's not about the coach. It's our program. It's our insanely delusional fanbase thinking we can fire our way to relevance. There are several posters enamored with Miss State's smashing of LSU while ignoring that it took him 7 years to break through. This is the case for every program not in elite recruiting territory. But start talking about the hogs, we should be winning 10 in year 3 because bobby did. Here is a secret we beat a lot of bad teams on that 21-5 run (12 to be exact). 2006 was so close because we beat 7 teams with losing records before falling apart when the schedule improved. The 98 team played the weakest schedule beating 7 teams with losing records before falling apart. Bielema might suck but has coached against the stiffest competition since we joined the SEC. The teams played combine for 37 winning records and 14 losing. This is the toughest 4 year stretch in hog history. We are great when our program is prepared for a low point in the schedule. Unfortanely we are never prepared. It's the reason we can never finish off a good season with a big win. We are 1-26 against conference champs and 12 plus win teams since joining the SEC.
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Torqued pork

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2017, 12:51:24 am »

If you value being THE TEAM of an entire state you should expect extra scrutiny with all of that attention.
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Hogs49ers

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2017, 01:00:02 am »

Very well said.  Sad, but so true.  Poetic.
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Quickdraw

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2017, 01:10:12 am »

Great post.
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King Kong

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2017, 01:51:34 am »

Petrino finish in the Top 12 back to back years and finished #5 in the later of those 2.

Not beating Bama is a stupid argument as they are on the greatest run in college football history
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snoot hoggy hog

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2017, 02:14:29 am »

I know Arkansas fans very well.

I was born and raised in Arkansas, and did 2 degrees at the U of A.

Hog fans will be forever cursed by the legacy of 1964.

There's a story that I've read in a few places, most recently in a tribute article to Frank Broyles.

Broyles, fresh off an undefeated 1964 season walked into the office of Arkansas Athletic Director John Barnhill.

Expecting praise, Broyles was stunned when Barnhill said. "You've just screwed up the best job in America."

Here's a link to a 1998 Demo-zette story about Broyles with that story included in it.

http://www.arkansasonline.com/news/1998/nov/08/seeking-majestic-high-mans-game/

Broyles had screwed up by delivering an undefeated season. And from then on, that's what Hog fans would expect, no matter what reality might have to say otherwise.

I have personally watched this expectation ruin season after season for Hog fans, ever since I can remember.

Arkansas has had exactly three 11-win seasons in its entire history of football, spanning back to 1894.

Arkansas has not been one of the "elite" teams in college football, save for that brief span back in the 1960s.

But every year, Hog fans get angry that they are not among the elite.

I've seen it over and over and over. When I was younger, I was one of the fans who would get angry because the Hogs were NOT among the elite. But season after season has shown me the error of my young-man thinking.

Now, I am NOT defending Bielema here. Fire Bielema all you want. But I want to point out something regarding an idea I've seen stated over and over on this board.

Lots of folks are hollering "Fire Bielema!" because the Hogs are about a .500 team under him. Folks in favor of firing Bielema often point to Bobby Petrino, and yearn for the days when Arkansas was "relevant."

Of course, "being relevant" with Bobby Petrino meant finishing, at best, 2nd or 3rd in the SEC West, and failing in the only BCS Bowl the Hogs ever played in.

Folks then holler, "Hey, that's better than Bielema! I WISH we were good enough to finish 2nd or 3rd in the SEC West!"

Oh Hog fans. I know you better than that.

I know how you react to coaches who get only  to "second rate" and never progress to 1964 standards.

Check that 1998 article I linked. All Ken Hatfield did was win a pair of Conference Championships, and win 76% of his games, never win fewer than 7 games, and post three 10-win seasons.

Hog fans grew frustrated because Hatfield couldn't replicate Broyles' 1964 mark. Broyles himself grew frustrated with it, according to the 1998 Demo-zette article. And thus Hatfield was run off to Clemson.

Houston Dale Nutt (whom I don't particularly like) won 61% of his games, coached in a pair of SEC title games, and got Arkansas to 7 bowl games.

Folks would claim that they would LOVE it if Bielema could replicate Houston Nutt's level of success.

But I know Hog fans better. Despite Nutt's wins, Hog fans came to dislike him because he could not reach 1964 type success. Late in Nutt's career, one poster on this board started using  a little image based on the "We Are Marshall" movie, only with a Hog player with the caption "We Are Mediocre!"

Of course, "We Are Mediocre" has been a very accurate description for the vast majority of Hog football seasons stretching back to 1894. But don't tell Hog fans that. They'll point to 1964!

Bobby Petrino won about 67% of his games at Arkansas. Never beat Alabama. Never reached an SEC title game.  Did  have one 10-win season (same as Nutt, 2 fewer than Hatfield) and one 11-win season. First such season since 1978 for Arkansas.

Some yearn and pine for the Bobby Petrino days. Of course, Petrino "benefited" from being fired for being a slimy lying bastage relatively early, in that he didn't stick around long enough for Hog fans to get tired of him bringing Arkansas to the brink of 1964-success, but like all the other coaches since Broyles, failing to actually achieve it.

And that's the point of this post.

Arkansas fans can holler all they want about wishing the team was good enough to finish 2nd or 3rd in the SEC West.

But I know better. History shows me better.

Hog fans are haunted by the ghost of 1964. And will always be angry and disappointed when they fail to reach that level of success, despite decades upon decades of proof that Arkansas simply isn't the kind of program where that level of expectation is warranted.

And even coaches who win 76% of their games, or 61% of their games will 100% guaranteed be run off or fired for not reaching 1964-levels, if they stay much beyond 5 or 6 seasons.

That's why it doesn't matter who coaches Arkansas. Because Hog fans want so badly to go back in time 53 years, they will happily run off any coach who achieves okay results, but doesn't achieve perfection.

I present Holtz, Hatfield and Nutt as exhibits A, B, and C.

And Arkansas most certainly is the type of program where 1964-type success happens exactly once in 123 years, and counting, counting, counting. Okay, but not great results are pretty much the top-end ceiling for Arkansas football.

But tons of Hog fans simply refuse to accept that truth. And thus it's the same old thing.

Fire Coach A! Replace him with Coach B! Fire Coach B! Replace him with Coach C! And the wheel spins and spins and spins.

On and on, with no end, and no realistic chance of it ending, all because Hog fans simply cannot get over 1964.



Hands down, one of the best hogville topics ever.
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WizardofhOgZ

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2017, 02:41:13 am »

I read the OP and it made some reasonable points, IMO.  In fact, it made the same points three or four time . . .  ;).  But here's my problem with the post - it talked about what we (Arkansas fans) shouldn't do; or, more to the point, what we "do" that is not productive.  But it failed to address the obviously related point of just what we should be doing instead.

Should we:

---Not care whether we win 3 games or 10 in a season?

---Hire a coach because he is a "good person" and keep him so long as he minimizes the number of off-the-field problems, and the players have an acceptable academic performance . . . regardless of success on the field?

---As fans, should be be expected to fill the stadium for every game, regardless of on the field success?

---Should fans lower expectations and be happy with a program that wins 60% of it's games and goes to Bowl games 2 out of 3 seasons?

I'm not saying the above are, or should be, the questions we need to answer.  Just giving examples of things SOME fans have mentioned in other posts.  And the point HERE (in this thread) is that the OP discussed NONE of these things.

I respect the right of ANY poster to give their opinion here, and I feel that I understand where the OP is coming from in many ways.  That said, I was told and learned a long time ago that it's easy to carp, bitch and complain about things; the more constructive thing to do is think about alternatives that would address and change the things being complained about, and then advocate to implement such changes.  I don't see that in this post.

I will also add, as someone who was around for "1964" that it wasn't JUST about 1964.  Sure - that was the pinnacle season.  But very soon after JFB got here (as in, his second season), Arkansas began not only challenging for, but winning conference championships on a regular basis.  No, not EVERY year - but most.  For those  many of you now reading this board that are not old enough to remember the Broyles era, it was VERY much like Nolan's tenure at Arkansas in Basketball - the program was universally regarded as one of THE elite programs in the country.  Not just by Razorback fans, but the entire college football community.  Arkansas was routinely ranked in pre-season polls, often in the Top 10.  And the credibility we built during Frank's years changed the perception of Arkansas' football program through Lou's and Kenny's tenures as well.

Now, the OP does make some good points, and I have thought about this as well.  My expectation, as one who joined Razorback fandom as a youngster during Franks' era, was skewed to anticipate a top 20 team every year, with a true shot at the Conference Championship more years than not.  It's true that was the SWC, not the SEC; but in 1960-65 the difference in the conferences was a lot less than people looking back 50 years (and using TODAY'S SEC as a measuring stick) would think.

But times have changed.  50 years ago, Texas and Arkansas started dominating the SWC, as Alabama, Georgia and Tennessee started being the dominant programs in the SEC (folks would be shocked to see how weak Florida was back then.  Ole Miss was powerful in the 50's and very early 60's, but fell off after that.  LSU was hit and miss.  Vandy was mediocre, as was MSU.  Tulane was a SEC member and a doormat).

Back then, the "haves" would sign 40 or 50 kids a year (no scholarship limits), so guys who were on the 3rd and 4th teams at places like Alabama and Texas, that would start at Vandy, never got to play.  Now, ALL the SEC teams have fantastic facilities, great weight training programs, and "SEC prestige".  That's why every year 10 of the top 30 recruiting classes come from the SEC.

It's a difficult thing to manage.  We ALL want to win - at least, every now and then.  personally, I'd be satisfied with being truly in contention for the SEC West championship once every 3 or 4 years, which should mean we'd be in the championship game a couple of times every decade, and maybe win one Conference Championship a decade.  Maybe a couple in a "good" decade, then none the next - but being in the mix a reasonable part of the time.

As it is, we really haven't been in the mix since Saben came into the conference - but then, a LOT of teams can say that.  Before he arrived, Arkansas more or less met my expectations - being in 3 SEC Championship games in 15 seasons (albeit, losing all of them).  I really think our big problem is being in the toughest division in all of college football at a time when perhaps the most dominant coach of all time is coaching a division rival.

As for CBB, I think he has been treated fairly.  I like him and want to see him succeed.  I'd think that unless we just totally tank this season, he's fine.  But his seat will be very warm next year, unless we rally to win 8+ games this year, which I do not expect.  He has to know that, and I'm sure he's acting accordingly. 

For now, I'm fully supportive and will see what happens.

If the OP has any constructive ideas as to what he'd rather see (than the current state he criticizes), I'd love to see him post those here.

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snoot hoggy hog

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2017, 04:30:16 am »

I think the post is saying to
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007 License To Squeal

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2017, 07:40:25 am »

Reality is that without high expectations you have zero chance to be successful.

+1000
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HardCore

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2017, 08:01:42 am »

Okay, decent points by both Oldbooniehog & WizardofhOgZ.  So, with that said, I am an old, Manufacturing, Continuous Improvement kind of guy.

What do all believe makes the Arkansas Job so unattractive to a Chip Kelly or an Elite Coach?  We have very nice facilities, loyal Fanbase (yes, even when we are PO'd like we are now), the only game in town, state-wide support, and a beautiful area of the country in which to live and attend school.  Have any of you ever been to Norman or College Station?  If Detroit is the doorway to Hell, Norman & College Station are the Screen Door and Doormat.  So, if they can get kids, I see no reason why we cannot.

So, what is the root cause on this coaching question.  Most of you say...recruiting base is tough.  I would tend to agree with you.  So let's look at the root cause cause problem.  We can get kids in from out of state, but face it...we will get the kids that Texas, TAMU, Oklahoma (recently also OK State), LSU, and so on didn't have enough scholarships to cover in their respective states.  So, they will gobble up the 5* and 4* kids in their states, while we are left with their 3* kids. 

We have 1 major FBS, Elite 5 Conference program in our state.  So, we cannot supply the U of A with enough athletes to cover our needs?  We should have enough 4* and even some 5* kids in this state to supply a single University with it's needs.  This is your root cause issue.  Arkansas High School Football is not developing talent.  Until we make Arkansas like Texas with their fanaticism toward HS Football.....build top notch facilities, hire top notch coaches and trainers, support these programs like your soul depends on it ...nothing will change.  It's a mentality change in the state.  The only schools in Arkansas that is even coming close to that are in NWA.

Now, not to be detractor, because I am a NWA guy.  But when the 7-A West is the shining pride in Arkansas HS Football......we got a problem.  LR, Pine Bluff, Southern Arkansas should easily put out the highest level talent base, but they are not developing talent there.  This is a mentality that needs fixed ASAP.

This is on the AD and the Gov.  I tell you, if Arkansas could put out enough top quality talent to supply their single university.....Arkansas will become a top-notch, elite program, which any coach would be thrilled to be a part of.  But, we as fans of Football need to embrace that mentality first. 

Coaches love to coach...they hate to recruit.  So, the easier you make the recruiting process, the better the chance we have of landing the next Saban or Kelly, etc.  This is the root cause problem.  If we fix it, then Long, sustainable success will start to come our way.
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nwahogfan1

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2017, 08:24:31 am »

Unrealistic expectations can kill our love for our team for sure.  I know after getting killed by TCU I am not looking forward to the rest of the season like I was before.   Good coaches can learn from this loss, put it behind them and motivate his team to over come.

I do not expect 12 win seasons any more even though I welcome them.
I do not expect 11 win seasons any more even though I would love to have one at least 1 a decade.
I do not expect to win a SEC title even though we I think we should be in the title game 1 or 2 times a decade.
I do not expect to beat Bama, LSU or Auburn every year but I do not think we should never lose to them by 50 points.

What I expect is our team to be well coached and well prepared and to compete at the highest level every game.  To be in the game in the 4th quarter with a chance to win. 
I do expect us to win 7 or 8 games in the regular season games every year.   This is not unrealistic considering we play 3 wins we buy.   I also expect us to win at least 3 games in the SEC which would put us 3-5 in the SEC West.

But beating just a pretty good TCU team at home, in front of a packed stadium and in front of a national audience to me is very realistic.  And losing 28-7 is horrible. Enough to get fans mad.   We looked unprepared.  Who do we blame?  Our offense looked slow, no imagination  and with out options.  WRs were not getting open and we  could not run the ball.  I repeat NO OPTIONS.  We had 5 weeks to get ready for TCU.  Coaches have to held responsible.  ENOS should have to go into CBB office and explain why he was not prepared and most importantly explain what he is going to do different to squeeze every bit of available talent out of his offense!!!!

I am not ready to fire anyone but I want to see improvement.
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Swestwill66

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2017, 08:29:11 am »

Can't win,don't try! Gotcha
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JaketheSnake

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2017, 08:32:26 am »

Most hog fans right now:  "Either we eat at Ruth's Chris or we starve to death!"

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Arkansas Traveler

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2017, 08:35:21 am »

How can I "not get over" something I never experienced?
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fullfan

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2017, 08:39:15 am »

Most hog fans right now:  "Either we eat at Ruth's Chris or we starve to death!"


Very true.
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snoot hoggy hog

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2017, 08:40:43 am »

How can I "not get over" something I never experienced?

Cause it's always being thrown in our face. "64 is the greatest hog team ever" or "You haven't won a championship since 1964". Neither goes down easy. Our ego gets bruised when we hear that last one.
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Kevin

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2017, 08:44:21 am »

1st year 6-7 wins
2nd year 7-8 wins
3rd year 8-9 wins
4 year-in position to challenge for the sec
5th year-in position to challenge for sec
Repeat the process

I don't think that is way out of line for the Arkansas program
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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2017, 08:44:22 am »

How can I "not get over" something I never experienced?


OBH is projecting is own mindset onto others.....he is the old man hung up on the Vietnam era.

The majority don't expect Arkansas to be Alabama.  They do expect a OL and at least a token defense though......
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hogcard1964

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2017, 08:48:24 am »

I would wager there's not a single regular poster on this site that compares Bielema to Broyles or our success from 50-60 years ago to our failures of today.

Meaningless post.
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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2017, 09:00:43 am »


OBH is projecting is own mindset onto others.....he is the old man hung up on the Vietnam era.

The majority don't expect Arkansas to be Alabama.  They do expect a OL and at least a token defense though......

Totally agree.  No one expects us to beat Alabama and I've been around a lot of Hog fans too.  We do expect to beat Texas A&M, Roledo, Texas Tech, TCU and Missouri.
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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2017, 09:02:33 am »

I really don't know any fans that expect to win 10 plus games per year. Most expect a winning season of 7-8 games per year (reality says 6-7 is the norm). What is demanded is to not be embarrassed by a lack of preparedness and inexplicable play calls. You can't necessary control how much talent you have but being well coached, disciplined and limiting mistakes can sure make a difference. If we are going to emphasize graduation rates and character (and I'm ok with this) then those 3 things are key to success. Also, with those "uncommon" young men you would expect it. That is what makes this really frustrating. Bielema has yet to be consistent in producing a team that possess these traits, and these traits do not really depend on raw talent. It is the key to success at Arkansas. It also a lot to do with why Petrino won here. He demanded those things and you don't have to be an offensive genius for it to work. 
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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2017, 09:06:07 am »

Totally agree.  No one expects us to beat Alabama and I've been around a lot of Hog fans too.  We do expect to beat Texas A&M, Roledo, Texas Tech, TCU and Missouri.

You must not know our fans. "Fire the coach, bench the qb" is said just as much as WPS
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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2017, 09:33:42 am »

Painting with too broad a brush, perhaps.

You know what I expect from our football program? The same thing I do from out basketball and baseball programs: the feeling that we have a chance. We may not have a Top 10 team, we may not be in the national conversation, but we have a chance to be. DVH has been here 15 years. No one is trying to run him off; why? Because fans know that every year we have a realistic chance to get to Omaha. May not make it but once every four or five years, but Razorback baseball fans have faith and hope that we can, based on past experience and belief in DVH.

Our football program has reached a point where fans like me have to be satisfied with the experience surrounding home games, because the games themselves are likely to disappoint. There is no hope or faith that the current coach can ever do any better than what we have seen so far, which is an average of 6.25 wins per season.

What we have now is the equivalent of getting in a fight, getting your ass totally kicked, and then getting up off the ground and having to look for the silver lining in the place where you got your ass kicked. "Wow, isn't the view great?" "Man, I sure am glad I had this nice soft spot on the ground to lay on while dude punched all my teeth out. That was cool."
« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 09:50:32 am by WilsonHog »
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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2017, 09:38:29 am »

I know Arkansas fans very well.

I was born and raised in Arkansas, and did 2 degrees at the U of A.

Hog fans will be forever cursed by the legacy of 1964.

There's a story that I've read in a few places, most recently in a tribute article to Frank Broyles.

Broyles, fresh off an undefeated 1964 season walked into the office of Arkansas Athletic Director John Barnhill.

Expecting praise, Broyles was stunned when Barnhill said. "You've just screwed up the best job in America."

Here's a link to a 1998 Demo-zette story about Broyles with that story included in it.

http://www.arkansasonline.com/news/1998/nov/08/seeking-majestic-high-mans-game/

Broyles had screwed up by delivering an undefeated season. And from then on, that's what Hog fans would expect, no matter what reality might have to say otherwise.

I have personally watched this expectation ruin season after season for Hog fans, ever since I can remember.

Arkansas has had exactly three 11-win seasons in its entire history of football, spanning back to 1894.

Arkansas has not been one of the "elite" teams in college football, save for that brief span back in the 1960s.

But every year, Hog fans get angry that they are not among the elite.

I've seen it over and over and over. When I was younger, I was one of the fans who would get angry because the Hogs were NOT among the elite. But season after season has shown me the error of my young-man thinking.

Now, I am NOT defending Bielema here. Fire Bielema all you want. But I want to point out something regarding an idea I've seen stated over and over on this board.

Lots of folks are hollering "Fire Bielema!" because the Hogs are about a .500 team under him. Folks in favor of firing Bielema often point to Bobby Petrino, and yearn for the days when Arkansas was "relevant."

Of course, "being relevant" with Bobby Petrino meant finishing, at best, 2nd or 3rd in the SEC West, and failing in the only BCS Bowl the Hogs ever played in.

Folks then holler, "Hey, that's better than Bielema! I WISH we were good enough to finish 2nd or 3rd in the SEC West!"

Oh Hog fans. I know you better than that.

I know how you react to coaches who get only  to "second rate" and never progress to 1964 standards.

Check that 1998 article I linked. All Ken Hatfield did was win a pair of Conference Championships, and win 76% of his games, never win fewer than 7 games, and post three 10-win seasons.

Hog fans grew frustrated because Hatfield couldn't replicate Broyles' 1964 mark. Broyles himself grew frustrated with it, according to the 1998 Demo-zette article. And thus Hatfield was run off to Clemson.

Houston Dale Nutt (whom I don't particularly like) won 61% of his games, coached in a pair of SEC title games, and got Arkansas to 7 bowl games.

Folks would claim that they would LOVE it if Bielema could replicate Houston Nutt's level of success.

But I know Hog fans better. Despite Nutt's wins, Hog fans came to dislike him because he could not reach 1964 type success. Late in Nutt's career, one poster on this board started using  a little image based on the "We Are Marshall" movie, only with a Hog player with the caption "We Are Mediocre!"

Of course, "We Are Mediocre" has been a very accurate description for the vast majority of Hog football seasons stretching back to 1894. But don't tell Hog fans that. They'll point to 1964!

Bobby Petrino won about 67% of his games at Arkansas. Never beat Alabama. Never reached an SEC title game.  Did  have one 10-win season (same as Nutt, 2 fewer than Hatfield) and one 11-win season. First such season since 1978 for Arkansas.

Some yearn and pine for the Bobby Petrino days. Of course, Petrino "benefited" from being fired for being a slimy lying bastage relatively early, in that he didn't stick around long enough for Hog fans to get tired of him bringing Arkansas to the brink of 1964-success, but like all the other coaches since Broyles, failing to actually achieve it.

And that's the point of this post.

Arkansas fans can holler all they want about wishing the team was good enough to finish 2nd or 3rd in the SEC West.

But I know better. History shows me better.

Hog fans are haunted by the ghost of 1964. And will always be angry and disappointed when they fail to reach that level of success, despite decades upon decades of proof that Arkansas simply isn't the kind of program where that level of expectation is warranted.

And even coaches who win 76% of their games, or 61% of their games will 100% guaranteed be run off or fired for not reaching 1964-levels, if they stay much beyond 5 or 6 seasons.

That's why it doesn't matter who coaches Arkansas. Because Hog fans want so badly to go back in time 53 years, they will happily run off any coach who achieves okay results, but doesn't achieve perfection.

I present Holtz, Hatfield and Nutt as exhibits A, B, and C.

And Arkansas most certainly is the type of program where 1964-type success happens exactly once in 123 years, and counting, counting, counting. Okay, but not great results are pretty much the top-end ceiling for Arkansas football.

But tons of Hog fans simply refuse to accept that truth. And thus it's the same old thing.

Fire Coach A! Replace him with Coach B! Fire Coach B! Replace him with Coach C! And the wheel spins and spins and spins.

On and on, with no end, and no realistic chance of it ending, all because Hog fans simply cannot get over 1964.

 You failed to mention the 2012 Cotton Bowl had 2 teams in a non-bcs bowl ranked higher than ones playing in a bcs bowl.
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McKdaddy

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #32 on: September 17, 2017, 09:56:36 am »

Painting with too broad a brush, perhaps.

You know what I expect from our football program? The same thing I do from out basketball and baseball programs: the feeling that we have a chance. We may not have a Top 10 team, we may not be in the national conversation, but we have a chance to be. DVH has been here 15 years. No one is trying to run him off; why? Because fans know that every year we have a realistic chance to get to Omaha. May not make it but once every four or five years, but Razorback baseball fans have faith and hope that we can, based on past experience and belief in DVH.

Our football program has reached a point where fans like me have to be satisfied with the experience surrounding home games, because the games themselves are likely to disappoint. There is no hope or faith that the current coach can ever do any better than what we have seen so far, which is an average of 6.25 wins per season.

What we have now is the equivalent of getting in a fight, getting your ass totally kicked, and then getting up off the ground and admiring the place where you got your ass kicked. "Wow, isn't the view great?" "Man, I sure am glad I had this nice soft spot on the ground to lay on while dude punched all my teeth out. That was cool."


Agreed.

 I'm often accused by my buddies of being too negative each season regarding Hog football. Admittedly, my pre-season win predictions are always lower than theirs by a game or two. In season I'm usually more cautious/less optimistic as we discuss each week's upcoming game. Negative or realistic? I don't know. Maybe I unconsciously set the bar low to avoid being let down.
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luke hawg

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #33 on: September 17, 2017, 10:04:21 am »

I really don't know any fans that expect to win 10 plus games per year. Most expect a winning season of 7-8 games per year (reality says 6-7 is the norm). What is demanded is to not be embarrassed by a lack of preparedness and inexplicable play calls. You can't necessary control how much talent you have but being well coached, disciplined and limiting mistakes can sure make a difference. If we are going to emphasize graduation rates and character (and I'm ok with this) then those 3 things are key to success. Also, with those "uncommon" young men you would expect it. That is what makes this really frustrating. Bielema has yet to be consistent in producing a team that possess these traits, and these traits do not really depend on raw talent. It is the key to success at Arkansas. It also a lot to do with why Petrino won here. He demanded those things and you don't have to be an offensive genius for it to work.

You do realize we've won 7-8-7, crazy.
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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #34 on: September 17, 2017, 10:08:41 am »

You do realize we've won 7-8-7, crazy.

Yes, we have.

Is it going to be this year or next that we win 10 and finish in the top 15 or so in the country?

Of our remaining 10 games, do Razorback fans have realistic belief that we're going to win seven, eight, or nine of those?
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Kevin

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #35 on: September 17, 2017, 10:10:16 am »

You do realize we've won 7-8-7, crazy.

if he just wins the last two games in 2016, then the fan base is not this irritated
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KennyForAD

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #36 on: September 17, 2017, 10:14:08 am »

I know Arkansas fans very well.

I was born and raised in Arkansas, and did 2 degrees at the U of A.

Hog fans will be forever cursed by the legacy of 1964.

There's a story that I've read in a few places, most recently in a tribute article to Frank Broyles.

Broyles, fresh off an undefeated 1964 season walked into the office of Arkansas Athletic Director John Barnhill.

Expecting praise, Broyles was stunned when Barnhill said. "You've just screwed up the best job in America."

Here's a link to a 1998 Demo-zette story about Broyles with that story included in it.

http://www.arkansasonline.com/news/1998/nov/08/seeking-majestic-high-mans-game/

Broyles had screwed up by delivering an undefeated season. And from then on, that's what Hog fans would expect, no matter what reality might have to say otherwise.

I have personally watched this expectation ruin season after season for Hog fans, ever since I can remember.

Arkansas has had exactly three 11-win seasons in its entire history of football, spanning back to 1894.

Arkansas has not been one of the "elite" teams in college football, save for that brief span back in the 1960s.

But every year, Hog fans get angry that they are not among the elite.

I've seen it over and over and over. When I was younger, I was one of the fans who would get angry because the Hogs were NOT among the elite. But season after season has shown me the error of my young-man thinking.

Now, I am NOT defending Bielema here. Fire Bielema all you want. But I want to point out something regarding an idea I've seen stated over and over on this board.

Lots of folks are hollering "Fire Bielema!" because the Hogs are about a .500 team under him. Folks in favor of firing Bielema often point to Bobby Petrino, and yearn for the days when Arkansas was "relevant."

Of course, "being relevant" with Bobby Petrino meant finishing, at best, 2nd or 3rd in the SEC West, and failing in the only BCS Bowl the Hogs ever played in.

Folks then holler, "Hey, that's better than Bielema! I WISH we were good enough to finish 2nd or 3rd in the SEC West!"

Oh Hog fans. I know you better than that.

I know how you react to coaches who get only  to "second rate" and never progress to 1964 standards.

Check that 1998 article I linked. All Ken Hatfield did was win a pair of Conference Championships, and win 76% of his games, never win fewer than 7 games, and post three 10-win seasons.

Hog fans grew frustrated because Hatfield couldn't replicate Broyles' 1964 mark. Broyles himself grew frustrated with it, according to the 1998 Demo-zette article. And thus Hatfield was run off to Clemson.

Houston Dale Nutt (whom I don't particularly like) won 61% of his games, coached in a pair of SEC title games, and got Arkansas to 7 bowl games.

Folks would claim that they would LOVE it if Bielema could replicate Houston Nutt's level of success.

But I know Hog fans better. Despite Nutt's wins, Hog fans came to dislike him because he could not reach 1964 type success. Late in Nutt's career, one poster on this board started using  a little image based on the "We Are Marshall" movie, only with a Hog player with the caption "We Are Mediocre!"

Of course, "We Are Mediocre" has been a very accurate description for the vast majority of Hog football seasons stretching back to 1894. But don't tell Hog fans that. They'll point to 1964!

Bobby Petrino won about 67% of his games at Arkansas. Never beat Alabama. Never reached an SEC title game.  Did  have one 10-win season (same as Nutt, 2 fewer than Hatfield) and one 11-win season. First such season since 1978 for Arkansas.

Some yearn and pine for the Bobby Petrino days. Of course, Petrino "benefited" from being fired for being a slimy lying bastage relatively early, in that he didn't stick around long enough for Hog fans to get tired of him bringing Arkansas to the brink of 1964-success, but like all the other coaches since Broyles, failing to actually achieve it.

And that's the point of this post.

Arkansas fans can holler all they want about wishing the team was good enough to finish 2nd or 3rd in the SEC West.

But I know better. History shows me better.

Hog fans are haunted by the ghost of 1964. And will always be angry and disappointed when they fail to reach that level of success, despite decades upon decades of proof that Arkansas simply isn't the kind of program where that level of expectation is warranted.

And even coaches who win 76% of their games, or 61% of their games will 100% guaranteed be run off or fired for not reaching 1964-levels, if they stay much beyond 5 or 6 seasons.

That's why it doesn't matter who coaches Arkansas. Because Hog fans want so badly to go back in time 53 years, they will happily run off any coach who achieves okay results, but doesn't achieve perfection.

I present Holtz, Hatfield and Nutt as exhibits A, B, and C.

And Arkansas most certainly is the type of program where 1964-type success happens exactly once in 123 years, and counting, counting, counting. Okay, but not great results are pretty much the top-end ceiling for Arkansas football.

But tons of Hog fans simply refuse to accept that truth. And thus it's the same old thing.

Fire Coach A! Replace him with Coach B! Fire Coach B! Replace him with Coach C! And the wheel spins and spins and spins.

On and on, with no end, and no realistic chance of it ending, all because Hog fans simply cannot get over 1964.



The Hogs are the worst team in the SEC and you think fans' expectations are a problem.   Bizarre.   
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hogcard1964

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2017, 10:19:13 am »

Yes, we have.

Is it going to be this year or next that we win 10 and finish in the top 15 or so in the country?

Of our remaining 10 games, do Razorback fans have realistic belief that we're going to win seven, eight, or nine of those?

I now seriously believe we could win 8 or 9, and I'm not being facetious. Games against Texas A&M, Auburn, Ole Miss, South Carolina and Missouri are all very winnable games.  This conference absolutely stinks.
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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #38 on: September 17, 2017, 10:22:05 am »

if he just wins the last two games in 2016, then the fan base is not this irritated

Much truth in that. JFB said that "Fans remember what you did in November." In the context of the 2016 season, that memory was getting shut out in the second halves of two games in which we held commanding leads at the half. Win those two, finish 9-4, and the narrative is much different.

But we didn't, and we perpetuated that feeling by being shut out again in the second half in our home opener against a TCU squad that gave up 36 points to SMU yesterday.
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LR_Matt

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #39 on: September 17, 2017, 10:22:15 am »

How does 33.3% of one championship ruin us forever???
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HoginMemphis

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #40 on: September 17, 2017, 10:25:15 am »

If this is all the U of A football program is and has been capable of in an average season over past 50+ years, why in the world are we paying the head coach $4 million a year and the OC and DC almost $1 million a year? Is that necessary to get the 3 to 4 wins in SEC games that we average?
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toxichog

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #41 on: September 17, 2017, 10:29:12 am »

As a Razorback fan for over 50 years........you never stop hoping and rooting.......but this post is TRUTH and REALITY.
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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #42 on: September 17, 2017, 10:32:05 am »







That's why it doesn't matter who coaches Arkansas. Because Hog fans want so badly to go back in time 53 years, they will happily run off any coach who achieves okay results, but doesn't achieve perfection.


[/quote]

I admit I haven't had time to do the math, what with keeping the neighbors' kids off my lawn and all, but I'm pretty sure 1963 wasn't anywhere near 53 years ago.

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HoginMemphis

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #43 on: September 17, 2017, 10:33:20 am »






That's why it doesn't matter who coaches Arkansas. Because Hog fans want so badly to go back in time 53 years, they will happily run off any coach who achieves okay results, but doesn't achieve perfection.




I admit I haven't had time to do the math, what with keeping the neighbors' kids off my lawn and all, but I'm pretty sure 1963 wasn't anywhere near 53 years ago.
It's very close to 53 years ago. Need to use a calculator since you cannot do it in your head.
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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #44 on: September 17, 2017, 10:34:59 am »






That's why it doesn't matter who coaches Arkansas. Because Hog fans want so badly to go back in time 53 years, they will happily run off any coach who achieves okay results, but doesn't achieve perfection.




I admit I haven't had time to do the math, what with keeping the neighbors' kids off my lawn and all, but I'm pretty sure 1963 wasn't anywhere near 53 years ago.
Uh, take your time and do the math ???
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Atlhogfan1

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #45 on: September 17, 2017, 10:39:35 am »

Reality is that without high expectations you have zero chance to be successful.

SMH
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Atlhogfan1

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #46 on: September 17, 2017, 10:40:26 am »

if he just wins the last two games in 2016, then the fan base is not this irritated

Yep. 
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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #47 on: September 17, 2017, 10:45:26 am »

I now seriously believe we could win 8 or 9, and I'm not being facetious. Games against Texas A&M, Auburn, Ole Miss, South Carolina and Missouri are all very winnable games.  This conference absolutely stinks.

To finish the regular season at 8-4, we need to be 4-2 coming out of the Alabama game, then beat Auburn at home and Ole Miss in Oxford. I'm thinking 6-6 or maybe 7-5.
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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #48 on: September 17, 2017, 10:51:46 am »

if he just wins the last two games in 2016, then the fan base is not this irritated

Yep win those 2 and people aren't as upset. Having the melt downs and unable to score in the second half of our last 2 games last year then having TCU come into our home and again not show up in the second half and get blown out, really puts a bad taste in peoples mouths.
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hogcard1964

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Re: Hog fans: Expectations vs reality since 1965
« Reply #49 on: September 17, 2017, 10:53:29 am »

To finish the regular season at 8-4, we need to be 4-2 coming out of the Alabama game, then beat Auburn at home and Ole Miss in Oxford. I'm thinking 6-6 or maybe 7-5.

Yep, and that's a possibility.
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