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Author Topic: And then what?????  (Read 3571 times)

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311Hog

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #150 on: September 14, 2017, 12:52:25 pm »

It's not the average that bothers me.  He's right about what our average is, even though we aren't even average right now.

It's the low ceiling that gets me.  CBB will NEVER, EVER, EVER win 10 games at Arkansas.  Not once. He doesn't have the ability.

i agree with this entire post, and the question remains how do we change it, or how is it changed?

I wrack my brain trying to think of a guy/system that could feasibly be brought here and win at least up to our program average.

And sadly i come up empty for the most part.  All my brain says is "pray for Saban to get bored and retire".

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jst01

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #151 on: September 14, 2017, 12:53:21 pm »

If we did start over with a new coach, would going 4-8 and 6-6 the next couple years with new coach be any worse than going 6-6 and 7-5 with the same coach? Would the program lose any credibility or prestige? I say no. That's my only point to this whole OP. How can it hurt to keep trying?
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311Hog

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #152 on: September 14, 2017, 12:53:34 pm »

Stop projecting TCU's season.  It's dishonest.

it could be anyone man, that is the point toledo's ACTUAL season would have been one for our record books that people would point to with the 2010 2011 seasons yet every day do people by the hundreds not come here and claim that as one of the single worst losses in program history like they are the citadel?
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Wildhog

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #153 on: September 14, 2017, 12:54:02 pm »

i agree with this entire post, and the question remains how do we change it, or how is it changed?

I wrack my brain trying to think of a guy/system that could feasibly be brought here and win at least up to our program average.

And sadly i come up empty for the most part.  All my brain says is "pray for Saban to get bored and retire".

Josh

There are a lot of good coaches out there.  There are a lot of coaches better than CBB out there.  There are a lot of coaches better than CBB that are a better fit at Arkansas out there.

We don't know what we'll have until we make the move, but we DO know what we have right now isn't working. 
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PorkRinds

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #154 on: September 14, 2017, 12:54:42 pm »

Stop projecting TCU's season.  It's dishonest.

You guys are projecting ours. Is that dishonest? You projected that CBB couldn't win ten games ever. If you're gonna project be consistent and let others project too.
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Redhogs

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #155 on: September 14, 2017, 12:55:33 pm »

This whole, "If you don't win the SEC then what difference does it make?" nonsense is one of the dumbest things I've ever read on this board.
thank you...it's like trying to reason with a fence post with these people.
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Wildhog

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #156 on: September 14, 2017, 12:56:17 pm »

it could be anyone man, that is the point toledo's ACTUAL season would have been one for our record books that people would point to with the 2010 2011 seasons yet every day do people by the hundreds not come here and claim that as one of the single worst losses in program history like they are the citadel?

We had more talent than Toledo at literally every position on the field.  I remember listening to the broadcast, and the commentator saying that of Toledo's starting OL, not ONE player had another FBS offer.

Yes, it was a terrible loss.
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311Hog

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #157 on: September 14, 2017, 12:57:01 pm »

There are a lot of good coaches out there.  There are a lot of coaches better than CBB out there.  There are a lot of coaches better than CBB that are a better fit at Arkansas out there.

We don't know what we'll have until we make the move, but we DO know what we have right now isn't working. 

And that is all HS and others have been saying while you are on the grass is greener lets make the leap pay the 10+ million dollars then bring in a "good" coach pay him 4 mil a year start this process all over again and we can fast forward 5 years to where we are having this conversation again because "good coach" isn't going to break this cycle.

We have to identify the guy with the scheme, the passion, the recruiting and we are going to have to hope the genetic Arkansas gods bless us once again.
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Wildhog

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #158 on: September 14, 2017, 12:57:08 pm »

You guys are projecting ours. Is that dishonest? You projected that CBB couldn't win ten games ever. If you're gonna project be consistent and let others project too.

Fair enough.

TCU's still not a good team.
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Wildhog

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #159 on: September 14, 2017, 12:58:06 pm »

And that is all HS and others have been saying while you are on the grass is greener lets make the leap pay the 10+ million dollars then bring in a "good" coach pay him 4 mil a year start this process all over again and we can fast forward 5 years to where we are having this conversation again because "good coach" isn't going to break this cycle.

We have to identify the guy with the scheme, the passion, the recruiting and we are going to have to hope the genetic Arkansas gods bless us once again.

That's just the nature of the game.  You hire and fire until someone works out and then you try like hell to keep them. 

The alternative is just giving up.
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311Hog

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #160 on: September 14, 2017, 12:59:38 pm »

We had more talent than Toledo at literally every position on the field.  I remember listening to the broadcast, and the commentator saying that of Toledo's starting OL, not ONE player had another FBS offer.

Yes, it was a terrible loss.

if your stance is that "if we don't win the SEC then it is pointless" is nonsense how is rationalizing away every team that beats us as "not good and terrible loss" any better?

I don't care what the announcers said i was at the Toledo game, and they went on to have a great season. I am sure the same thing woulda been said by the announcers if it was Boise State that came in and beat us at home, but i bet you wouldn't be saying how bad Boise State is now would you ? nope because they have "generally accepted" standing now in college football and Toledo didn't because it was a one time thing, their team was alot of high major school transfers hell the QB was former Bama.
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Wildhog

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #161 on: September 14, 2017, 01:01:44 pm »

That year, Toledo lost to an 8-6 NIU team and an 8-5 Western Michigan team.  Let's pump the breaks a little.
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PLHawg

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #162 on: September 14, 2017, 01:06:33 pm »

Problem was getting a Big10 coach to try to install a Big10 ground and pound philosophy in the SEC.  At a school like Arkansas that was going to be like trying to fit a round peg in a square hole, especially after the offensive success that we'd had with Petrino.  Long did not think that hire through whatsoever, all he saw was "hey we can get a B10 coach with a good record here".  That being said, after the Petrino fiasco I don't think there were many successful coaches lining up for the job.
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RazorPiggie

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #163 on: September 14, 2017, 01:07:01 pm »

Oh I don't know, it's a country of 325,000,000 people, I think it's doable..you hire an up and coming coach who could not do any worse, would cost less $,  and AT LEAST would show some fire in the belly, something long missing from this program. You act like it's a gamble and we have something to lose at this point..we don't, except an over paid, clueless, head coach.

An answer I expected from you. I thought you'd at least give a name of a current coach or something. Obviously I have no idea what I was thinking.
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311Hog

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #164 on: September 14, 2017, 01:07:58 pm »

Problem was getting a Big10 coach to try to install a Big10 ground and pound philosophy in the SEC.  At a school like Arkansas that was going to be like trying to fit a round peg in a square hole, especially after the offensive success that we'd had with Petrino.  Long did not think that hire through whatsoever, all he saw was "hey we can get a B10 coach with a good record here".  That being said, after the Petrino fiasco I don't think there were many successful coaches lining up for the job.

Hind sight 20 20 and i am pretty sure Long's stance was to find a BCS level coach willing to leave their BCS level program to come here.  I can promise you that list is not a long one. No pun intended. =)
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hogsanity

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #165 on: September 14, 2017, 01:08:24 pm »

Strawman.  No one (or at least very, very few) has said that we can sustain 9+ wins/year.   

Well then whats the point? We are a 7-8 win a year team on average, so why keep firing and hiring if the goal is to not be better than that? To be better than that they are going to have to win 9 a year, on average.
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Kevin

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #166 on: September 14, 2017, 01:08:50 pm »

Hind sight 20 20 and i am pretty sure Long's stance was to find a BCS level coach willing to leave their BCS level program to come here.  I can promise you that list is not a long one. No pun intended. =)

hiring him was fine, as I have said, the contract was stupid.
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Wildhog

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #167 on: September 14, 2017, 01:08:52 pm »

Well then whats the point? We are a 7-8 win a year team on average, so why keep firing and hiring if the goal is to not be better than that? To be better than that they are going to have to win 9 a year, on average.

I swear to god I will find a way to put you on ignore.
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311Hog

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #168 on: September 14, 2017, 01:08:58 pm »

That year, Toledo lost to an 8-6 NIU team and an 8-5 Western Michigan team.  Let's pump the breaks a little.

I am not saying Toledo is a freaking NC contender again, the point is that it wasn't a bad loss when you think about the totality of our season and theirs.  It was not a Citadel, or a Vandy at home.
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311Hog

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #169 on: September 14, 2017, 01:09:41 pm »

hiring him was fine, as I have said, the contract was stupid.

no doubt, i can only hope there is some non golden parachute way out of it if it comes to that.
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Wildhog

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #170 on: September 14, 2017, 01:10:11 pm »

I am not saying Toledo is a freaking NC contender again, the point is that it wasn't a bad loss when you think about the totality of our season and theirs.  It was not a Citadel, or a Vandy at home.

When talent is equal, the better coach wins.

When you have far more talent than the other team, and still manage to lose, what does that say?
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311Hog

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #171 on: September 14, 2017, 01:11:30 pm »

When talent is equal, the better coach wins.

When you have far more talent than the other team, how bad does the coaching have to be to lose?

pretty bad, and i know we leave the players out because of reasons, but some of that loss falls at their feet.  Something else i remember about that game was the absolute madness of the golf course that day both before and after the game.
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Atlhogfan1

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #172 on: September 14, 2017, 01:14:30 pm »

Problem was getting a Big10 coach to try to install a Big10 ground and pound philosophy in the SEC.  At a school like Arkansas that was going to be like trying to fit a round peg in a square hole, especially after the offensive success that we'd had with Petrino.  Long did not think that hire through whatsoever, all he saw was "hey we can get a B10 coach with a good record here".  That being said, after the Petrino fiasco I don't think there were many successful coaches lining up for the job.

It wasn't for what our program's history has been.  Even Petrino's best team, 2010, had a very good power running game.  Bielema hasn't been as much ground and pound as he has needed to be at Arkansas because the oline recruiting (numbers) and development has been subpar. 
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NaturalStateReb

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #173 on: September 14, 2017, 01:15:14 pm »

BB is gone at the end of the season, and then what, hire another coach and in 5 years when the results are an average of 7-8 wins a year ( which is our average since joining the sec, 25+ seasons ) I guess we will want that guy gone and try someone else?

Oh, and don't forget the new guy will probably be very different in offensive philosophy and will have to try to do that with the ball control type players on campus.

And no, this is not a keep BB thread. It is a why do you expect different results, over time, than any of the other coaches since joining the sec have provided.

Could be.  Coaches just don't last long anywhere.  Coaches with long tenures are clearly exceptions. 

Here's the logic of this argument:

Arkansas coaches have historically averaged about 7 wins per season.
Bret Bielema averages about 7 wins per season.
Why then make a change?

The problem with this logic is that the converse of the argument is also true:

Arkansas coaches in the past have averaged about 7 wins per season.
Anyone new will also probably average about 7 wins per season.
Why not make a change, since the current coach performs at the level at which anyone else could perform? 

If you think, overall, that any given coach will average about 7 wins per season, then the risk of deviating from that norm, historically speaking, seems small.  If most anyone can average about 7 wins, then there's really no reason to pay Bielema a Powerball-like salary and buyout to reach a level that many other coaches could attain more cheaply.
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hogsanity

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #174 on: September 14, 2017, 01:15:41 pm »

I am 47 years old, in those 47 years the Hogs have 340 wins, that is 7.23 per season. We have had 9 coaches in that span that have coached at least 1 full season, that is one coach every 5 years.
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RazorPiggie

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #175 on: September 14, 2017, 01:17:42 pm »

That year, Toledo lost to an 8-6 NIU team and an 8-5 Western Michigan team.  Let's pump the breaks a little.

Row the boat!!!!!
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Wildhog

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #176 on: September 14, 2017, 01:17:59 pm »

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GuvHog

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #177 on: September 14, 2017, 01:19:43 pm »

And that is all HS and others have been saying while you are on the grass is greener lets make the leap pay the 10+ million dollars then bring in a "good" coach pay him 4 mil a year start this process all over again and we can fast forward 5 years to where we are having this conversation again because "good coach" isn't going to break this cycle.

We have to identify the guy with the scheme, the passion, the recruiting and we are going to have to hope the genetic Arkansas gods bless us once again.

Doesn't have to be a big name HC. Heck I wouldn't mind them offering Brent Venables 3.5 Million a year for 7 years and kick it up above 4 million a year if he is successful. It wouldn't hurt to give him a shot if things don't work out with CBB.
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RazorPiggie

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #178 on: September 14, 2017, 01:19:50 pm »

Fair enough.

TCU's still not a good team.

They definitely didn't look like a top 25 team but maybe it's because our defense is better  ;)
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RazorPiggie

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #179 on: September 14, 2017, 01:20:35 pm »

I just want to know who Redhogs wants as the next Head Hog.
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Atlhogfan1

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #180 on: September 14, 2017, 01:21:09 pm »

I get where sanity is trying to go in the OP.  But when it is time to make a change, make it. 

Bielema has not shown he can max what a team's ceiling is in a given season.  This doesn't give hope to when (if) he were to have an excellent team, that it would get into the 10-12 win area and maybe the SECCG.  We have to have a coach who can. 

As far as the 2010-11 seasons, they weren't flukes.  They were cycles where our program was fortunate to have in state talent and enough talent around them to have good teams.  Petrino is a great enough coach to have maximized those teams win totals.  2011 schedule also was not a very tough one especially in the SEC outside of Bama and LSU.  Two teams who happened to be two of the best this century IMO especially on defense and from a physically imposing standpoint.  However, some are holding onto these seasons way too much as if that was the norm for our program and was going to be the annual success.  We could have had more of those seasons but they weren't going to be every season. 
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jst01

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #181 on: September 14, 2017, 01:22:40 pm »

I am 47 years old, in those 47 years the Hogs have 340 wins, that is 7.23 per season. We have had 9 coaches in that span that have coached at least 1 full season, that is one coach every 5 years.


So just stick with the way things are and don't try to get the avg up to 8.5 per year?
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311Hog

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #182 on: September 14, 2017, 01:23:01 pm »

Doesn't have to be a big name HC. Heck I wouldn't mind them offering Brent Venables 3.5 Million a year for 7 years and kick it up above 4 million a year if he is successful. It wouldn't hurt to give him a shot if things don't work out with CBB.

i know not a HC but i consider Brent Venerables to be a big name coach as in everyone knows who he is, what he does and where he has been.

I almost feel like that is also a choice we would have to make.  Go like SoCa east and pick a Defensive guy and pray for an OC or get an offensive guy and pray for a defense.  CBB IMHO is a CEO lean Defense but that hasn't really worked.
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Wildhog

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #183 on: September 14, 2017, 01:23:06 pm »

So just stick with the way things are and don't try to get the avg up to 8.5 per year?

We have to get to average first.  CBB hasn't done that.
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PorkRinds

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #184 on: September 14, 2017, 01:24:13 pm »

Fair enough.

TCU's still not a good team.

I suppose we will see. But I agree we should have beaten them. If you keep them to 14 points by the 4th quarter you should be able to win. Every time.
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Wildhog

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #185 on: September 14, 2017, 01:25:53 pm »

I suppose we will see. But I agree we should have beaten them. If you keep them to 14 points by the 4th quarter you should be able to win. Every time.

Let me rephrase.  I don't know what they'll do the rest of the season.

But they were a bad team the day we played them.  That was just bad football.
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Letsroll1200

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #186 on: September 14, 2017, 01:26:32 pm »

Well then whats the point? We are a 7-8 win a year team on average, so why keep firing and hiring if the goal is to not be better than that? To be better than that they are going to have to win 9 a year, on average.

Did you expect 26-27 when Bret was hired?
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hogsanity

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #187 on: September 14, 2017, 01:27:53 pm »

If we did start over with a new coach, would going 4-8 and 6-6 the next couple years with new coach be any worse than going 6-6 and 7-5 with the same coach? Would the program lose any credibility or prestige? I say no. That's my only point to this whole OP. How can it hurt to keep trying?

I don't disagree with that, but to what end, just to keep winning 6 or 7 games and go through 2 poor ( possibly ) years of not even making a bowl to just get back to 7 or 8 wins and then doing it all over again in 2022 or 23?
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311Hog

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #188 on: September 14, 2017, 01:28:55 pm »

Let me rephrase.  I don't know what they'll do the rest of the season.

But they were a bad team the day we played them.  That was just bad football.

that game is so bizarre to me.  So many things in it did not make predictable sense.

1. I didn't expect TCU to dominate time of possession.
2. I didn't expect our secondary to produce turn overs
3. I didn't think our kicking game was that bad, worse then high school kicker with the steel toe boot bad.

So yeah i cannot tell if TCU will end up being really good, but they are probably going to carry the torch for Texas this year, and they are really fast and experienced upfront.
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hoghearted

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #189 on: September 14, 2017, 01:29:29 pm »

This whole, "If you don't win the SEC then what difference does it make?" nonsense is one of the dumbest things I've ever read on this board. 


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Wildhog

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #190 on: September 14, 2017, 01:30:19 pm »

that game is so bizarre to me.  So many things in it did not make predictable sense.

1. I didn't expect TCU to dominate time of possession.
2. I didn't expect our secondary to produce turn overs
3. I didn't think our kicking game was that bad, worse then high school kicker with the steel toe boot bad.

So yeah i cannot tell if TCU will end up being really good, but they are probably going to carry the torch for Texas this year, and they are really fast and experienced upfront.

It was just an ugly, sloppy game that was full of mistakes and poor execution from both teams.
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BallHog1

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #191 on: September 14, 2017, 01:32:08 pm »

Poor ole Arkiesaw, here we go again.
Very weak overused reply. Bring something to the table or just sit and listen.
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jst01

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #192 on: September 14, 2017, 01:33:07 pm »

I don't disagree with that, but to what end, just to keep winning 6 or 7 games and go through 2 poor ( possibly ) years of not even making a bowl to just get back to 7 or 8 wins and then doing it all over again in 2022 or 23?

No, you don't know if after the two poor years you win 7 or maybe 10. You may find the right coach that reels off three 10 win seasons after two crap years. Gotta try to find out. What's it gonna hurt at this point

And if that coach can't do it after five years, you try another one.
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311Hog

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #193 on: September 14, 2017, 01:33:38 pm »

It was just an ugly, sloppy game that was full of mistakes and poor execution from both teams.

yeah i hope we stop running out of the A backwards. I don't care if there is construction it was bad mojo
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PorkRinds

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #194 on: September 14, 2017, 01:33:44 pm »

Let me rephrase.  I don't know what they'll do the rest of the season.

But they were a bad team the day we played them.  That was just bad football.

I wanted to puke. Not from the scotch either.
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bphi11ips

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #195 on: September 14, 2017, 01:34:31 pm »

Let me rephrase.  I don't know what they'll do the rest of the season.

But they were a bad team the day we played them.  That was just bad football.

TCU turned the ball over on the goaline and missed a pass for another score.  Otherwise
They ran the ball well and Kenny Hill didn't do anything to get them beat.  TCU's defense looked Top 10 caliber. 

That was a good football team.
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311Hog

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #196 on: September 14, 2017, 01:34:33 pm »

No, you don't know if after the two poor years you win 7 or maybe 10. You may find the right coach that reels off three 10 win seasons after two crap years. Gotta try to find out. What's it gonna hurt at this point

i think the hurt you point to is he ugly buy out, and if the new person is another dynamic football philosophical change IE longer time to 'bring in his guys".
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hogsanity

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #197 on: September 14, 2017, 01:34:38 pm »

Did you expect 26-27 when Bret was hired?

Expect it, no. Surprised by it, no.

What has surprised me is the recruiting. While still getting solid classes, which we know is still going to be bottom 3rd of the SEC, he has not gotten the players he did in year one. Hindsight tells me he got them because he was on them for Wisconsin and by the time he came here they did not want to go through recruiting any more so they followed him here.
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bphi11ips

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #198 on: September 14, 2017, 01:35:30 pm »

Oh I can't wait to see the replies to this.

Do you disagree?
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Dominicanhog

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Re: And then what?????
« Reply #199 on: September 14, 2017, 01:36:13 pm »

Could be.  Coaches just don't last long anywhere.  Coaches with long tenures are clearly exceptions. 

Here's the logic of this argument:

Arkansas coaches have historically averaged about 7 wins per season.
Bret Bielema averages about 7 wins per season.
Why then make a change?

The problem with this logic is that the converse of the argument is also true:

Arkansas coaches in the past have averaged about 7 wins per season.
Anyone new will also probably average about 7 wins per season.
Why not make a change, since the current coach performs at the level at which anyone else could perform? 

If you think, overall, that any given coach will average about 7 wins per season, then the risk of deviating from that norm, historically speaking, seems small.  If most anyone can average about 7 wins, then there's really no reason to pay Bielema a Powerball-like salary and buyout to reach a level that many other coaches could attain more cheaply.

CBB's average is not 7 wins per year it's 6.25 a full game less than average..stated another way, he's at about 86% of our average.... If your average is not great to start with and you have a coach hitting at 86% of that, not sure that's defensible....If we run the table this year, he still won't be at our historical average since the 50's.... .  If he were just average, not sure there'd be such an uproar at this point in his career..

Also, that's an average of many decades,, Many of those were with 10/11 game seasons... he now has 12/13 games to try and match our 7.23 wins per year average...
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