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Author Topic: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."  (Read 2647 times)

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bphi11ips

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #50 on: September 12, 2017, 12:45:49 pm »

Early signing period is Dec and we expect to sign ever current commit then.

Didn't realize that takes effect this year.  Guess I need to understand what that means myself. 
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ricepig

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #51 on: September 12, 2017, 12:46:13 pm »

I may be misreading him, but I don't see Bielema being the kind of guy who sticks around for the "win or else" season.

If we win 7 or 8 games this season, things will quieten down. If not, life is going to get very uncomfortable for him and his family. That is something he has never experienced as a head coach.

Yeah, but somebody has to take him off our hands, he didn't negotiate the buyout to walk away from it.
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GuvHog

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #52 on: September 12, 2017, 12:49:04 pm »

If Long's gripe or defense of this asinine statement was in line with Arkansas actually being a dirty/"win at all" type of program through the years, then I could understand him saying something like this.  But we've always been pretty clean in relation to a lot of other SEC programs.  I also remember we were always pretty upstanding in our old SWC days as well.

Him coming out with this nonsense when the football program is down is an obvious indicator of him attempting to "polish the turd" that is currently Arkansas football.

Long's and Bielema's statements since the loss to TCU tell me that they are already feeling the pressure and they don't like it.

Long defended Dave Wannstedt to the bitter end at Pittsburgh and he's doing the same thing with CBB.
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Seminole Indian

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #53 on: September 12, 2017, 12:49:20 pm »


I do, however, believe it is not unreasonable to expect that we will average 7-9 wins every year with an occasional 10-win season. That really should be possible at Arkansas without handing over sackfuls of money to recruits.


That is what you are right now.
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redneckfriend

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #54 on: September 12, 2017, 12:50:32 pm »

Well, you for one.

Which is in direct opposition to what Long said. He posed it as a binary choice: 'win at all costs', or 'cheat'. He completely deflects his responsibility to hold his coaches accountable for their performance. Instead, he blasts those who are unhappy as willing to cheat, lie, or do whatever to win. There is middle ground there, in spite of you being too blind to see it.
[/quot

I think you are misunderstanding the point being made by the quote i.e. if you support one you support the other and, as I pointed out, that is a false conflation. 

I'm really not sure where you are coming from with that to be honest. There are a number of middle grounds since the term "win" is ambiguous. It might mean "win more than you lose" which, with a little hedging about occasional 10 win seasons, is the way the OP seems to be using it, or it can mean win so that you are competing for an SEC championship two years out of three or it can mean win like Alabama and there are a whole bunch of other ways "win" can be interpreted. So the Op was really taking in a strong position about what "win" means without seeming to i.e. at Arkansas "winning" means something different than it does at Alabama and we should get used to it. You seem to imply that Long is using that definition of winning". I don't think so, I think he was using the "all or nothing", "go for broke" definition that so many fans on this site would like to use but perhaps you should ask him.
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hogsanity

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #55 on: September 12, 2017, 12:51:15 pm »

That is what you are right now.

Exactly, and have been as a program for a century+.
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Gonzo

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #56 on: September 12, 2017, 12:51:29 pm »

Early signing period is in December, try to keep up with recruiting.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaaf/2017/04/14/ncaa-approves-early-signing-period-for-football/100462270/


Fair enough, things change, had not seen that. Try not to be a snippy arse, no need for it.


Go Hogs!
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Wildhog

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #57 on: September 12, 2017, 12:51:35 pm »

That is what you are right now.

We haven't won more than 7 regular season games yet.  I'm assuming Wilson was talking about regular season.
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ricepig

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #58 on: September 12, 2017, 12:52:21 pm »

Exactly, and have been as a program for a century+.

Just too close to the 7 number at the current time, thus the "burn the mother down" mantra.
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PonderinHog

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #59 on: September 12, 2017, 12:52:27 pm »

I don't believe in win-at-all-costs either, but couldn't we "lose" at a much lower cost if that's what we've resigned ourselves to do?  A lot of money is being "thrown" at the problem now, and we aren't getting the desired results on the field.
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ricepig

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #60 on: September 12, 2017, 12:54:18 pm »

I don't believe in win-at-all-costs either, but couldn't we "lose" at a much lower cost if that's what we've resigned ourselves to do?  A lot of money is being "thrown" at the problem now, and we aren't getting the desired results on the field.

SEC coaches salaries average over $4M, somebody isn't going to be happy, haha.
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Wildhog

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #61 on: September 12, 2017, 12:56:28 pm »

SEC coaches salaries average over $4M, somebody isn't going to be happy, haha.

It's just always going to be us.  :(
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DLUXHOG

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #62 on: September 12, 2017, 12:57:04 pm »

Chill....  be patient as all things are cyclical...  the Hogs will be sniffing the top again, and soon....   with Long - Bielema or not... 
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WilsonHog

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #63 on: September 12, 2017, 12:59:04 pm »

Yeah, but somebody has to take him off our hands, he didn't negotiate the buyout to walk away from it.

True, and if we go 6-6 or worse there aren't likely to be many options for him.

That would put us in a curious position, no? Making the argument of "who could we get that's better" for a coach who can't get a better job.
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ricepig

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #64 on: September 12, 2017, 01:04:39 pm »

True, and if we go 6-6 or worse there aren't likely to be many options for him.

That would put us in a curious position, no? Making the argument of "who could we get that's better" for a coach who can't get a better job.

Well, I'm not sure every school always gets a new hire that is better, one just needs to be sure and lock up that person when you find him. One thing I've noticed this week in all the "coaching talk", no one is demanding we give it to Enos or Rhoads.......
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LR_Matt

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #65 on: September 12, 2017, 01:07:48 pm »

You either win games or you don't.... period.

No moral victories for "doing it right" and certainly no winning in being on probation.

Just quit talking and win.... or don't and leave.
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Redhogs

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #66 on: September 12, 2017, 01:08:21 pm »

Assuming you are correct, how smart is it to put a provision in a contract that the University couldn't afford to exercise if it wanted to?
Thank you.  In essence, it gave BB accountability to NO ONE...brilliant move on Long's part.
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PonderinHog

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #67 on: September 12, 2017, 01:13:31 pm »

SEC coaches salaries average over $4M, somebody isn't going to be happy, haha.
Bielema's salary is just the tip of the iceberg.  We can lose for a lot less.   ;D
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Cinco de Hogo

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #68 on: September 12, 2017, 01:21:55 pm »

I do, however, believe in winning. That's why they keep score; it kind of matters.

I don't expect us to be Alabama; we do not begin to have their resources in any measure.

I do, however, believe it is not unreasonable to expect that we will average 7-9 wins every year with an occasional 10-win season. That really should be possible at Arkansas without handing over sackfuls of money to recruits.

In four years and two games, Bret Bielema is 26-27 (.491). Throw out the two games this year, and his teams have averaged 6.25 wins a season. In the exact same time frame, Houston Nutt's teams went 30-18 (.625) - and I don't think that man could coach his way out of a damn sack. "Yeah, but you HAVE to throw out Bret's first year!" Well, okay, let's do that (notwithstanding the fact that the Rabid Weasel inherited teams from Danny Ford that had suffered through consecutive 4-7 seasons, yet found a way to go 9-3 and finish in the Top 20...something Bielema has yet to accomplish). Even discounting his first season, Bielema's teams have gone 23-18 (.561). The only coach since 1958 to have that poor a winning percentage over his first four years was Danny Ford, and he was fired at the end of his fifth season.

Why so upset after just two games? Maybe because of the narrative that we heard since the end of last season. "Oh, we had some seniors who were cancers in the locker room." "Oh, we had some issues that we couldn't fix during the season, but we've addressed those." Just as occurred during his time at Wisconsin, Bielema supposedly lost focus last year but was re-energized and re-focused on the task at hand. Y'all see that last week, in our home opener on national television and in front of 70,000 fans? I didn't. Then post-game, his approach was to throw players under the bus and claim ignorance - didn't know why we didn't play Hayden more, no idea why the tight ends weren't more involved. Oh, and now we have to re-assess everything. Really? After our first true game? What kind of foundation do we have for that to be necessary?

Yeah, I want our players to be good citizens and graduate. I want our coach to be a fine representative of our university. I also want to win, at what I consider fairly modest levels. The evidence is stacking that Bielema isn't the man for the job.

Who is? Well, if history is any indication (and it usually is), better go find (a) an average coach who can motivate the hell out of our players a couple of times a year and hope he lucks into some home-grown generational talent; or (b) find a coach who is considered one of the best play-callers in college football. Bielema is neither.

I just have one question Wilson and other than that +1.

Do you connect "winning at all cost" with Long finding a way the keep CBP...with serious  stipulations?
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Wildhog

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #69 on: September 12, 2017, 01:24:33 pm »

I just have one question Wilson and other than that +1.

Do you connect "winning at all cost" with Long finding a way the keep CBP...with serious  stipulations?

Meh.  CBP deserved his firing. 
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Hog-Corleone

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #70 on: September 12, 2017, 01:25:00 pm »

I do, however, believe in winning. That's why they keep score; it kind of matters.

I don't expect us to be Alabama; we do not begin to have their resources in any measure.

I do, however, believe it is not unreasonable to expect that we will average 7-9 wins every year with an occasional 10-win season. That really should be possible at Arkansas without handing over sackfuls of money to recruits.

In four years and two games, Bret Bielema is 26-27 (.491). Throw out the two games this year, and his teams have averaged 6.25 wins a season. In the exact same time frame, Houston Nutt's teams went 30-18 (.625) - and I don't think that man could coach his way out of a damn sack. "Yeah, but you HAVE to throw out Bret's first year!" Well, okay, let's do that (notwithstanding the fact that the Rabid Weasel inherited teams from Danny Ford that had suffered through consecutive 4-7 seasons, yet found a way to go 9-3 and finish in the Top 20...something Bielema has yet to accomplish). Even discounting his first season, Bielema's teams have gone 23-18 (.561). The only coach since 1958 to have that poor a winning percentage over his first four years was Danny Ford, and he was fired at the end of his fifth season.

Why so upset after just two games? Maybe because of the narrative that we heard since the end of last season. "Oh, we had some seniors who were cancers in the locker room." "Oh, we had some issues that we couldn't fix during the season, but we've addressed those." Just as occurred during his time at Wisconsin, Bielema supposedly lost focus last year but was re-energized and re-focused on the task at hand. Y'all see that last week, in our home opener on national television and in front of 70,000 fans? I didn't. Then post-game, his approach was to throw players under the bus and claim ignorance - didn't know why we didn't play Hayden more, no idea why the tight ends weren't more involved. Oh, and now we have to re-assess everything. Really? After our first true game? What kind of foundation do we have for that to be necessary?

Yeah, I want our players to be good citizens and graduate. I want our coach to be a fine representative of our university. I also want to win, at what I consider fairly modest levels. The evidence is stacking that Bielema isn't the man for the job.

Who is? Well, if history is any indication (and it usually is), better go find (a) an average coach who can motivate the hell out of our players a couple of times a year and hope he lucks into some home-grown generational talent; or (b) find a coach who is considered one of the best play-callers in college football. Bielema is neither.


Co-Sign
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Seminole Indian

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #71 on: September 12, 2017, 01:25:51 pm »

Chill....  be patient as all things are cyclical...  the Hogs will be sniffing the top again, and soon....   with Long - Bielema or not...
Well somethings, like your coach having an wreak with the wrong passenger and lying to your boss about it can upset the normal cycle, and that "lighting out of the blue" is hard to take.

When you are by any measure one of the top 20-25 programs in college football, fans don't tend to handle even the normal down cycles very well, no matter how brief the stay.
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Cinco de Hogo

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #72 on: September 12, 2017, 01:29:17 pm »

Meh.  CBP deserved his firing.

You didn't answer the question, if Long had keep him with serious stipulations, would that have been winning at all cost.  Remember ya'll proclaimed that we would be the  laughingstock of college football.  Well we are and Louisville ain't.
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DLUXHOG

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #73 on: September 12, 2017, 01:34:37 pm »

Well somethings, like your coach having an wreak with the wrong passenger and lying to your boss about it can upset the normal cycle, and that "lighting out of the blue" is hard to take.

When you are by any measure one of the top 20-25 programs in college football, fans don't tend to handle even the normal down cycles very well, no matter how brief the stay.

Well, "stuff" happens, even to Alabama after the Bear (an Arkansas born & raised boy) left....  remember?
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ricepig

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #74 on: September 12, 2017, 01:34:47 pm »

Bielema's salary is just the tip of the iceberg.  We can lose for a lot less.   ;D

Or, you can lose for a lot more.......
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Wildhog

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #75 on: September 12, 2017, 01:35:54 pm »

You didn't answer the question, if Long had keep him with serious stipulations, would that have been winning at all cost.  Remember ya'll proclaimed that we would be the  laughingstock of college football.  Well we are and Louisville ain't.

I don't know if it would be or not. 

Regardless, CBP should have been fired.  Where I think we went wrong was getting away from the blueprint that brought us success.  We need an offensive guru to win at Arkansas.  Petrino's not the only one out there.
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Locutus_of_Boar

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #76 on: September 12, 2017, 01:45:48 pm »

Well, you for one.

Which is in direct opposition to what Long said. He posed it as a binary choice: 'win at all costs', or 'cheat'. He completely deflects his responsibility to hold his coaches accountable for their performance. Instead, he blasts those who are unhappy as willing to cheat, lie, or do whatever to win. There is middle ground there, in spite of you being too blind to see it.

Jeff Long intentionally positions it as a binary choice strictly because that gives him the maximum amount of time and the minimum amount of cost to make a decision he knows he will inevitably make.

Thirty-one very different men have coached at the University of Arkansas over 123 years.  I truly believe only two of those men fully grasped what was necessary to do the job.  The first, John Barnhill was forced from the job by his health but went on to two decades as AD.  The other J. Frank Broyles co-incidentally was the only one of all those coaches who was able to retire on his own terms.

Win-at-all-costs is not only impractical its not what even the most demanding of the fans truly want.  Barnhill and Broyles understood what really drives the fans and with them the entire program.  Orville Henry explained it half a century ago in his and Jim Bailey's "The Razorbacks, A Story of Arkansas Football":

"It is hard to realize there are people past voting age (in the late 1960's) who cannot remember when it is different.  When the hopes of an entire state did not hang achingly on the words of a Wally Ingalls or Bob Cheyne or Bud Campbell.  When there were no monumental traffic snarls around War Memorial Stadium.  When red was just another color.  When tickets could be bought at the gate.  When a University of Arkansas game was regarded as an athletic contest rather than an urgent defense of the state's honor."

Mr. Long has a business to run and Coach Bielema has a team to coach and Arkansas has a program to support.  None should be fretting about winning games at all costs.  This is not about games.  This is about doing all we can to act with honor win or lose.  All of us should be unyielding in doing all that is necessary to defend the honor of this team, this program, this school, and this state.
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OneLardAlmighty

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #77 on: September 12, 2017, 01:46:44 pm »

[quote author=WilsonHog link=topic=637315.msg10953531#msg10953531 date= (b) find a coach who is considered one of the best play-callers in college football. Bielema is neither.






[/quote]

This has always been the formula for punch-above-our-weight success at Arkansas.  I was hopeful that Bielema might be able to win here by another formula, especially since I kinda like the guy and do think he has done a lot of things right, but doubtful that it could be done.  Time is proving my doubts correct.

Hopefully Long will bear this formula in mind when Bielema is replaced, as he inevitably will be, one way or the other.
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WilsonHog

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #78 on: September 12, 2017, 01:52:40 pm »

I just have one question Wilson and other than that +1.

Do you connect "winning at all cost" with Long finding a way the keep CBP...with serious  stipulations?

That's a fair question.

No, I do not. I define "winning at all costs" as committing academic fraud to keep players eligible and paying for play in some manner. I do not consider even committing secondary NCAA infractions to be an attempt to "win at all costs."

Of course, there is also the stuff that has gone on at Penn State and Baylor, which certainly fits into the "win at all costs" category.
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DeltaBoy

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #79 on: September 12, 2017, 01:53:13 pm »

Wilson said it well! It sad that in year 5 we are not a better set up program.
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riccoar

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #80 on: September 12, 2017, 02:03:51 pm »

Personally, I think Long expects academic success to be first priority.  Much like a Vanderbilt West, if you will, with a tad better record.
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WilsonHog

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #81 on: September 12, 2017, 02:04:45 pm »

This has always been the formula for punch-above-our-weight success at Arkansas.  I was hopeful that Bielema might be able to win here by another formula, especially since I kinda like the guy and do think he has done a lot of things right, but doubtful that it could be done.  Time is proving my doubts correct.

Hopefully Long will bear this formula in mind when Bielema is replaced, as he inevitably will be, one way or the other.

So was I, because I like the more traditional style of football; a pro-style attack with a physical, attacking defense. Other than at schools like Alabama and maybe Ohio State, that's a tall order. Just can't get enough top-flight talent on both sides of the football to make that approach work. Those Razorback fans who expressed reservation about that style working at Arkansas when Bielema was hired appear to have been correct.

With de-emphasis on the physicality of the game and the advent of 7-on-7, those days of football are probably gone forever. It's much easier to sign a few really good skill position players and play pitch-and-catch for four quarters.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 02:22:31 pm by WilsonHog »
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hogsanity

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #82 on: September 12, 2017, 02:21:02 pm »

So was I, because I like the more traditional style of football; a pro-style attack with a physical, attacking defense. Other than at schools like Alabama and maybe Ohio State, that's a tall order. Just can't get enough top-flight talent on both sides of the football to make that approach work.

With de-emphasis on the physicality of the game and the advent of 7-on-7, those days of football are probably gone forever. It's much easier to sign a few really good skill position players and play pitch-and-catch for four quarters.

You still have to play defense. The best teams are always going to have a defense able to stop anyone. Now stop may be holding a team to 28 where it used to mean 7 or 10, but it still starts and stops with the D. And no I am not blaming last Sat on the D, just saying there is always going to be a place for physical players and play.

But yes, on offense, it does seem that it is inevitable that football will be a bubble screen/rpo/read option game at the college level and lower.
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Piggfoot

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #83 on: September 12, 2017, 02:57:00 pm »

I agree with everything Wilsonhog said. What causes so much angst in the hearts of Razorback fans is the propaganda delivered by those who make their living selling the hogs and those who buy into their reports. When their "promises go undelivered fans go ballistic. Why people believe what is reported each year is unbelievable to me.
We barely beat TCU last year. They returned most of their team intact with a butt load of seniors.
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Cinco de Hogo

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #84 on: September 12, 2017, 03:12:31 pm »

That's a fair question.

No, I do not. I define "winning at all costs" as committing academic fraud to keep players eligible and paying for play in some manner. I do not consider even committing secondary NCAA infractions to be an attempt to "win at all costs."

Of course, there is also the stuff that has gone on at Penn State and Baylor, which certainly fits into the "win at all costs" category.

And a good answer,

I define winning the right way as meeting or exceeding all NCAA rules, regulations and standards.  Not turning a blind eye to personal conduct both on and off the field by all coaches, players and others connected to the program.  I believe in letting justice be served and reacting in a positive way towards offenses.  I also believe that at any time a persons deserves a hearing(unless they are incarcerated )and I believe all athletes get that even if the offense is bad enough that you know they will not be back.  I believe in second chances but not for all offenses.  This is the way I would want my child treated if he made a mistake.  I think the U of A has always done these things except for a few times and I know of one in particular.  I am far from a "win at all cost" person. 

Personally I don't know where this "win at all cost" conclusion is coming from since Arkansas has never been that.  Overall we are probably one of the cleaner of the top 50 programs in America.  I say 50 because to compare apples to apples you would want to compare yourself with teams that have a high expectancy of winning or fan pressure to win.  The reason I ask the question and the reason I believe we keep seeing it can be traced back to Petrino and just like now I believe it's nothing more than Long positioning himself in a place it's hard to question actual results on the field.



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hogsanity

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #85 on: September 12, 2017, 03:27:56 pm »

And a good answer,

I define winning the right way as meeting or exceeding all NCAA rules, regulations and standards.  Not turning a blind eye to personal conduct both on and off the field by all coaches, players and others connected to the program.  I believe in letting justice be served and reacting in a positive way towards offenses.  I also believe that at any time a persons deserves a hearing(unless they are incarcerated )and I believe all athletes get that even if the offense is bad enough that you know they will not be back.  I believe in second chances but not for all offenses.  This is the way I would want my child treated if he made a mistake.  I think the U of A has always done these things except for a few times and I know of one in particular.  I am far from a "win at all cost" person. 

Personally I don't know where this "win at all cost" conclusion is coming from since Arkansas has never been that.  Overall we are probably one of the cleaner of the top 50 programs in America.  I say 50 because to compare apples to apples you would want to compare yourself with teams that have a high expectancy of winning or fan pressure to win.  The reason I ask the question and the reason I believe we keep seeing it can be traced back to Petrino and just like now I believe it's nothing more than Long positioning himself in a place it's hard to question actual results on the field.





That line of thought is coming from the fact that people are finally realizing the Hogs are a 7-8 win a year program, and they see the only way up is to cheat because they assume anyone winning more is cheating.

There are some so desperate for the hogs to win, because they somehow derive their self worth from what the hogs do, that they would sell their own kids to satan for a nc.
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Cinco de Hogo

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #86 on: September 12, 2017, 03:39:40 pm »

That line of thought is coming from the fact that people are finally realizing the Hogs are a 7-8 win a year program, and they see the only way up is to cheat because they assume anyone winning more is cheating.

There are some so desperate for the hogs to win, because they somehow derive their self worth from what the hogs do, that they would sell their own kids to satan for a nc.

BS!

It certainly couldn't be that we believe we can get a better coach that is more suited to what Arkansas is and can do.  It has to be that we are bad people that want to cheat.  There is not one fan that has manufactured BB's record.  Did you see the support at the stadium Saturday?  I did, I was there and it was awesome...until the product on the field took all the air out. 

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Wildhog

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #87 on: September 12, 2017, 03:40:42 pm »

We are a 7-8 win (regular season) football program on average.  The problem is that 8 wins seems to be CBB's ceiling, and that is unacceptable.
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Hogdomer

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #88 on: September 12, 2017, 04:06:46 pm »

I agree with everything Wilsonhog said. What causes so much angst in the hearts of Razorback fans is the propaganda delivered by those who make their living selling the hogs and those who buy into their reports. When their "promises go undelivered fans go ballistic. Why people believe what is reported each year is unbelievable to me.
We barely beat TCU last year. They returned most of their team intact with a butt load of seniors.

The angst is that we regularly beat TCU, Texas Tech and Texas A&M when we used to play them every year.  We moved to a better conference, upgraded the facilities, make money hand over fist and have a fifth year coach with all his recruits.  Sounds like we are ready to roll, right?  Instead, not only do TCU, Tech, Toledo and A&M beat us, most do so on our home field and in humiliating fashion.  There is the "angst." 

Very few except us to beat Alabama or even LSU often, but we should be better than Mizzou and Mississippi State and the current coach has losing records to both of those teams.  The expectations are not unreasonable and are not being met.
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ModestoHOG63

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #89 on: September 12, 2017, 04:17:30 pm »

"Winning at all cost" = SABAN (example) Then I take Saban everyday and Sunday regardless how our GPA looks. 
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Cinco de Hogo

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #90 on: September 12, 2017, 04:23:44 pm »

"Winning at all cost" = SABAN (example) Then I take Saban everyday and Sunday regardless how our GPA looks.

Well your GPA has to stay above 930.
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gchamblee

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #91 on: September 12, 2017, 04:27:08 pm »

I do, however, believe in winning. That's why they keep score; it kind of matters.

I don't expect us to be Alabama; we do not begin to have their resources in any measure.

I do, however, believe it is not unreasonable to expect that we will average 7-9 wins every year with an occasional 10-win season. That really should be possible at Arkansas without handing over sackfuls of money to recruits.

In four years and two games, Bret Bielema is 26-27 (.491). Throw out the two games this year, and his teams have averaged 6.25 wins a season. In the exact same time frame, Houston Nutt's teams went 30-18 (.625) - and I don't think that man could coach his way out of a damn sack. "Yeah, but you HAVE to throw out Bret's first year!" Well, okay, let's do that (notwithstanding the fact that the Rabid Weasel inherited teams from Danny Ford that had suffered through consecutive 4-7 seasons, yet found a way to go 9-3 and finish in the Top 20...something Bielema has yet to accomplish). Even discounting his first season, Bielema's teams have gone 23-18 (.561). The only coach since 1958 to have that poor a winning percentage over his first four years was Danny Ford, and he was fired at the end of his fifth season.

Why so upset after just two games? Maybe because of the narrative that we heard since the end of last season. "Oh, we had some seniors who were cancers in the locker room." "Oh, we had some issues that we couldn't fix during the season, but we've addressed those." Just as occurred during his time at Wisconsin, Bielema supposedly lost focus last year but was re-energized and re-focused on the task at hand. Y'all see that last week, in our home opener on national television and in front of 70,000 fans? I didn't. Then post-game, his approach was to throw players under the bus and claim ignorance - didn't know why we didn't play Hayden more, no idea why the tight ends weren't more involved. Oh, and now we have to re-assess everything. Really? After our first true game? What kind of foundation do we have for that to be necessary?

Yeah, I want our players to be good citizens and graduate. I want our coach to be a fine representative of our university. I also want to win, at what I consider fairly modest levels. The evidence is stacking that Bielema isn't the man for the job.

Who is? Well, if history is any indication (and it usually is), better go find (a) an average coach who can motivate the hell out of our players a couple of times a year and hope he lucks into some home-grown generational talent; or (b) find a coach who is considered one of the best play-callers in college football. Bielema is neither.

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ricepig

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #92 on: September 12, 2017, 04:32:23 pm »

Well your GPA has to stay above 930.

Bama has a good GPA, also the best recruits, the best coaches money can buy, a Dodge Charger in every locker, and an agent on speed dial.....
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bphi11ips

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #93 on: September 12, 2017, 04:35:40 pm »

That line of thought is coming from the fact that people are finally realizing the Hogs are a 7-8 win a year program, and they see the only way up is to cheat because they assume anyone winning more is cheating.

There are some so desperate for the hogs to win, because they somehow derive their self worth from what the hogs do, that they would sell their own kids to satan for a nc.

This is a load of manure.  Why do you have over 41,000 posts?

Remove the plank in your own eye.
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niels_boar

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #94 on: September 12, 2017, 04:38:13 pm »

CBB has earned criticism and doubt.  However, in fairness comparing his first four years to Nutt's is not a Nascar evaluation.  I think we have seen enough of Nutt's career to know that he didn't miraculously turn the program around in his first year with his genius.  Clearly Ford had gotten the talent level to a point that Nutt could benefit from a team that was ready to turn the corner against one of our weaker schedules in decades.  Nutt didn't face a a top-40 SOS in his first three years according to Sagarin. 

By contrast, CBB inherited a program plunging into a valley, rather than climbing out. CBB has never faced a non-top-25 SOS by any measure and two consensus top-5 SOS's.  I'm pretty confident that he's a better (certainly no worse) coach than Nutt.  The difference in their records at this point says more about the challenge that they inherited than the quality of their coaching.

To be honest, I don't understand wasting so much energy debating his job status after two games.  If posters want to analyze how unprepared we were for TCU, fine.  When a fifth-year senior QB is next-to-last in all of college FB in QBR after two games, you have some 'splaining to do at CBB's salary.  However, a lot can happen in 10 games.  If the team course corrects and rallies, getting out the pitchforks now will look petulant and pointless.  If the team collapses, his job will be in plenty jeopardy by December without massing at the borders now for the final offensive.
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Al Boarland

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #95 on: September 12, 2017, 04:39:12 pm »

Spot on Wilson.  Spot on.  There is NO reason we can't win 7-9 games a year and, twice a decade, have a shot at a SEC title when the classes align right and do it all without cheating at Ole Miss levels.

You have to ask who you are going to move ahead of and how are you going to do it?There are 3 teams in the west that will always have more talent. That leaves 0 margin for error with tossup type programs.
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DLUXHOG

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #96 on: September 12, 2017, 04:39:30 pm »

Shame on you for introducing perspective into this discussion....
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Al Boarland

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #97 on: September 12, 2017, 04:42:45 pm »

What nonsense! Long/Bielema defenders? Who are they? I don't think Bielema has a single defender on this site at this point. Defending Jeff Long is an entirely different matter. He didn't lose to Missouri or TCU. He hired a successful coach from a P-5 program and that coach is not doing very well. The question is what is to be done and I don't think the original poster offered much guidance there so why would anyone reply? The Op basically said: try to win at a reasonable level while not getting into the dirt in order to do it. I'm not sure who would argue with that except the Petrino supporters but it doesn't move the ball very far down the field if the question is how to do that.

The only thing you can question from Long is the buyout. He brings in the best coaches he can. I’ll tell you his job is going to be a lot harder after CBB collect his buyout because everyone is going to know the uphill battle to be middle of the pack in the SEC.
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ricepig

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #98 on: September 12, 2017, 04:47:56 pm »

The only thing you can question from Long is the buyout. He brings in the best coaches he can. I’ll tell you his job is going to be a lot harder after CBB collect his buyout because everyone is going to know the uphill battle to be middle of the pack in the SEC.

I'm not sure Dykes was the best hire he could have brought in, Neighbors would have been then, as now. I think he thought Jimmy would fill the stands more and win some games. It turned out no one wanted to play for him, or coach with him.
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Jek Tono Porkins

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Re: I do not Believe in "Win-at-all-Costs."
« Reply #99 on: September 12, 2017, 04:57:39 pm »

I do, however, believe in winning. That's why they keep score; it kind of matters.

I don't expect us to be Alabama; we do not begin to have their resources in any measure.

I do, however, believe it is not unreasonable to expect that we will average 7-9 wins every year with an occasional 10-win season. That really should be possible at Arkansas without handing over sackfuls of money to recruits.

In four years and two games, Bret Bielema is 26-27 (.491). Throw out the two games this year, and his teams have averaged 6.25 wins a season. In the exact same time frame, Houston Nutt's teams went 30-18 (.625) - and I don't think that man could coach his way out of a damn sack. "Yeah, but you HAVE to throw out Bret's first year!" Well, okay, let's do that (notwithstanding the fact that the Rabid Weasel inherited teams from Danny Ford that had suffered through consecutive 4-7 seasons, yet found a way to go 9-3 and finish in the Top 20...something Bielema has yet to accomplish). Even discounting his first season, Bielema's teams have gone 23-18 (.561). The only coach since 1958 to have that poor a winning percentage over his first four years was Danny Ford, and he was fired at the end of his fifth season.

Why so upset after just two games? Maybe because of the narrative that we heard since the end of last season. "Oh, we had some seniors who were cancers in the locker room." "Oh, we had some issues that we couldn't fix during the season, but we've addressed those." Just as occurred during his time at Wisconsin, Bielema supposedly lost focus last year but was re-energized and re-focused on the task at hand. Y'all see that last week, in our home opener on national television and in front of 70,000 fans? I didn't. Then post-game, his approach was to throw players under the bus and claim ignorance - didn't know why we didn't play Hayden more, no idea why the tight ends weren't more involved. Oh, and now we have to re-assess everything. Really? After our first true game? What kind of foundation do we have for that to be necessary?

Yeah, I want our players to be good citizens and graduate. I want our coach to be a fine representative of our university. I also want to win, at what I consider fairly modest levels. The evidence is stacking that Bielema isn't the man for the job.

Who is? Well, if history is any indication (and it usually is), better go find (a) an average coach who can motivate the hell out of our players a couple of times a year and hope he lucks into some home-grown generational talent; or (b) find a coach who is considered one of the best play-callers in college football. Bielema is neither.
Yep, that's the way I feel. On paper, Bielema was a great hire. So were many, many other coaches that for whatever reason didn't get it done. But the results just aren't there.

I don't even mind the contract extension. On paper, that was a great decision. It was a risk, but the general feeling after the 2014 season was that although the record wasn't all that great, the team was fiercely competitive against top competition and closed out the season looking like world beaters shutting out Ole Miss and LSU and humiliating Texas in the bowl game. At that point it looked like Bielema was ahead of schedule considering the situation he inherited. But since then it's been the same mixed bag of results, except the team has been less competitive against top competition and the excuses have run out. I hope the team turns it around this season but I don't think that's going to happen. We're stuck with CBB until we can afford to get rid of him. It is what it is.
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