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Author Topic: Wow! New CTE study shows...  (Read 4495 times)

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Wildhog

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #50 on: July 25, 2017, 01:18:22 pm »

These studies are good.  Being more informed is good.

No one is taking away football.  If parents being more informed means fewer kids play football, so be it.  But there's way too much money in it for it to go away, thank goodness.
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greenie

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #51 on: July 25, 2017, 01:18:40 pm »

Looks like have tens of thousands of posts on Hogville appears to cause something detrimental to your brain as well.  ;-)
Just let it go. 
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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #52 on: July 25, 2017, 01:31:03 pm »

No, CTE is not feminism -  I am talking about the feminist/liberal ideology of safety before fun.  I am talking about a young boys brain being infected with feminism,  which is far more dangerous than the possibility of a concussion in football. They are taking away everything.  Do you remember Lawn Darts?  Me to!
I pray you're just some 15 year old kid who's passing the summer hours flaming on Hogville.

If, for some reason, that's not the case, you are one very troubled individual.
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Cinco de Hogo

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #53 on: July 25, 2017, 01:31:49 pm »

Nice so play football or die in the streets are their two options?  and you say the American dream is still alive?

Also to your soldier point, to the tough guys posting in here about protecting the person.  Why aren't you up in arms about kevlar?  if soldiers were really tough they would go into battle in their boxers with a machine gun amirite? they should man up... please

What's nice about anything violent?  The American Dream is about choices and opportunity it's not about doing nothing because you might get hurt or you might not succeed.  Medicine, science, research, great!  Just don't tell some young johnny he can't enjoy sports because he might get hurt.

Believe me there are those and a growing number who actually hate sports as a function of growing up.   No the worlds not perfect but we will make it better through science etc... but what many of us are saying is you got to be careful that the liberal feminist don't destroy all signs of manhood.  Now if you are one that truly believes there is no difference in man and woman, no difference in the way we are wired, or shouldn't be none of that will matter to you. 

I don't have a problem with the study, but you can bet CNN choose to report the study for very feminist reasons.  However the main reason would be because football is very American.
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Michael_E_Davis

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #54 on: July 25, 2017, 01:34:10 pm »

I pray you're just some 15 year old kid who's passing the summer hours flaming on Hogville.

If, for some reason, that's not the case, you are one very troubled individual.

Another insult -  without an argument.   
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311Hog

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #55 on: July 25, 2017, 01:37:39 pm »

What's nice about anything violent?  The American Dream is about choices and opportunity it's not about doing nothing because you might get hurt or you might not succeed.  Medicine, science, research, great!  Just don't tell some young johnny he can't enjoy sports because he might get hurt.

Believe me there are those and a growing number who actually hate sports as a function of growing up.   No the worlds not perfect but we will make it better through science etc... but what many of us are saying is you got to be careful that the liberal feminist don't destroy all signs of manhood.  Now if you are one that truly believes there is no difference in man and woman, no difference in the way we are wired, or shouldn't be none of that will matter to you. 

I don't have a problem with the study, but you can bet CNN choose to report the study for very feminist reasons.  However the main reason would be because football is very American.

You do not need to fear the [CENSORED].  My god some of you are not men.  Men do not cower and give off this false bravery.  It isn't bravery it is stupidity.  There is nothing feminist about damaging your brain over time, losing your mind and subsequently shooting yourself in the chest to try and proof to people you have a problem.

There is nothing feminist about knowing what you are getting into before you get into it.  I guess we should bring back led paint, remove gun safeties, tear the seat belts out of your car, stop making sun screen, .......

Juding/dismissing the message because of your bias (in most cases unfounded) for the messenger is a very stupid way to go through life.
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twistitup

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #56 on: July 25, 2017, 01:39:46 pm »

CTE is some scary shiite, this is why the NFL covered it up for 20+ years and only recently acknowledged a linkage....the studies are out, but this has been common knowledge for years.
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EastexHawg

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #57 on: July 25, 2017, 01:47:26 pm »

The median age of those studied was 66.  Tom Brady ain't 66.

Bob Lilly is 77.  So are Lance Alworth and Fran Tarkenton.  Dick Butkus is 75.  So is Roger Staubach.  Bart Starr is 83.  His teammates Paul Hornung and Herb Adderley are 81 and 78, respectively. Forrest Gregg will be 84 later this year.  So will Lenny Moore.  Don Shula, who played seven years as a DB in the NFL in the 50s, is 87.  Remember Y.A. Tittle, subject of the famous photo of the defeated and beaten, on his knees with blood running down his face?  He is 91.

Mike Ditka...Iron Mike, who never avoided a collision any more than his teammate Butkus did...is about to be 78.  I bet if he ever did appear on TV he would be so addled he would be unable to talk.

But, football apparently killed their fellow Hall of Famer Art Donovan.  He died a few years ago at the tender age of 88.

I know three ladies who died from brain disease/dementia.  As far as I know none of them even played Little League football, much less in college or in the NFL.
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Pig in the Pokey

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #58 on: July 25, 2017, 01:49:49 pm »

I think I have that darn for real. i've had about ~15 concussions between fights, football, & wrecks. Including a #5 Masterlock to the back of the dome and a 250lber jumping on me head. jah.
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Wildhog

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #59 on: July 25, 2017, 01:53:25 pm »

I think I have that darn for real. i've had about ~15 concussions between fights, football, & wrecks. Including a #5 Masterlock to the back of the dome and a 250lber jumping on me head. jah.

I believe you Pokey.  :)
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hobhog

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #60 on: July 25, 2017, 01:53:41 pm »

I think we need to let this run its course for a few days and get some clarity on this study. Not sure it is exclusive to football- probably get close to same results for many sports when take sample of already suffering athletes.

But definitely think some more changes will be made in the sport going forward. The most recent ones have been good and probably see some more, but football will be fine.
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RyanMallettsEgo

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #61 on: July 25, 2017, 01:56:04 pm »

That picking a very small subset of players isnt proof of darn. Is CTE a thing. Yes. Is it a plague that will effect everyone that plays football at any type of competitive level? Absolutely not.

I guess you missed this part.

Findings:

In a convenience sample of 202 deceased players of American football from a brain donation program, CTE was neuropathologically diagnosed in 177 players across all levels of play (87%), including 110 of 111 former National Football League players (99%).
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311Hog

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #62 on: July 25, 2017, 01:58:23 pm »

Bob Lilly is 77.  So are Lance Alworth and Fran Tarkenton.  Dick Butkus is 75.  So is Roger Staubach.  Bart Starr is 83.  His teammates Paul Hornung and Herb Adderley are 81 and 78, respectively. Forrest Gregg will be 84 later this year.  So will Lenny Moore.  Don Shula, who played seven years as a DB in the NFL in the 50s, is 87.  Remember Y.A. Tittle, subject of the famous photo of the defeated and beaten, on his knees with blood running down his face?  He is 91.

Mike Ditka...Iron Mike, who never avoided a collision any more than his teammate Butkus did...is about to be 78.  I bet if he ever did appear on TV he would be so addled he would be unable to talk.

But, football apparently killed their fellow Hall of Famer Art Donovan.  He died a few years ago at the tender age of 88.

I know three ladies who died from brain disease/dementia.  As far as I know none of them even played Little League football, much less in college or in the NFL.

I just don't understand this line of thinking, maybe i am misreading your post.

But to me it sounds like you are saying because CTE doesn't happen to every single person that is old, and played football in the NFL that it isn't a danger and should not be given the time of day.

And it seems like you follow up this with your second point that, because other non NFL people get brain related diseases that this also proves that CTE is not real and that Football is absolutely safe and not a causer of brain problems.

Which again is just mind boggling if that is what you are saying.

I mean would you also say that because i know someone that survived a car wreck and wasn't wearing their seat belt, and i also know someone that died wearing their seat belt that therefore this proves that seat belts are giant waste of time and should be removed from this planet.
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hoggusamoungus

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #63 on: July 25, 2017, 02:04:21 pm »

Bob Lilly is 77.  So are Lance Alworth and Fran Tarkenton.  Dick Butkus is 75.  So is Roger Staubach.  Bart Starr is 83.  His teammates Paul Hornung and Herb Adderley are 81 and 78, respectively. Forrest Gregg will be 84 later this year.  So will Lenny Moore.  Don Shula, who played seven years as a DB in the NFL in the 50s, is 87.  Remember Y.A. Tittle, subject of the famous photo of the defeated and beaten, on his knees with blood running down his face?  He is 91.

Mike Ditka...Iron Mike, who never avoided a collision any more than his teammate Butkus did...is about to be 78.  I bet if he ever did appear on TV he would be so addled he would be unable to talk.

But, football apparently killed their fellow Hall of Famer Art Donovan.  He died a few years ago at the tender age of 88.

I know three ladies who died from brain disease/dementia.  As far as I know none of them even played Little League football, much less in college or in the NFL.

Median age means some of the group were obviously older than 66, some unfortunately younger.  It could be everyone of those guys you mention has CTE, we just won't know until they die.
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hogsanity

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #64 on: July 25, 2017, 02:17:39 pm »

Why such vitriol from some of you.  I mean, they could prove football causes cancer in half the people who play it and the game still is not going anywhere. So why all the angst?
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hogsanity

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #65 on: July 25, 2017, 02:19:08 pm »

I think we need to let this run its course for a few days and get some clarity on this study. Not sure it is exclusive to football- probably get close to same results for many sports when take sample of already suffering athletes.

But definitely think some more changes will be made in the sport going forward. The most recent ones have been good and probably see some more, but football will be fine.

They can change it all they want, but they are never going to stop head trauma because so much of it results from the brain sloshing back and forth in the head, and there is no way to take that out of the game.
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greenie

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #66 on: July 25, 2017, 02:21:24 pm »

This study appears to conclude that "Tau" buildup is the physiological indicator they used to determine that the owner had CTE.  Just good to note that CTE is not the only cause of Tau protein buildup.  Alzheimer's and other forms of dimentia diseases also point to Tau buildup, and of course we know that the general population get these diseases (including ex-football players).  It does make sense that football can lead to permanent head injuries, but this article is hardly a good indicator of it IMHO.  Maybe the original study report would provide more compelling information, such as a statistical comparison between the incident rates of ex-football players and the general population.  I'm not saying that football-induced CTE is not real, but that this article does very little to substantiate it.  I wonder who funded the study.
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EastexHawg

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #67 on: July 25, 2017, 02:30:59 pm »

Median age means some of the group were obviously older than 66, some unfortunately younger.  It could be everyone of those guys you mention has CTE, we just won't know until they die.

Is there a point to be made if a former football player dies at age 87 and is found to have had CTE?  Maybe that he would have lived to 117 without it?
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311Hog

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #68 on: July 25, 2017, 02:36:11 pm »

Is there a point to be made if a former football player dies at age 87 and is found to have had CTE?  Maybe that he would have lived to 117 without it?

I think the point is that acknowledgement, treatment, prevention may have improved the quality of those years after the game ended.  People with mental issues of any type struggle mightily with acceptance and treatment with the general public that does not suffer these issues.
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hoggusamoungus

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #69 on: July 25, 2017, 02:38:06 pm »

Is there a point to be made if a former football player dies at age 87 and is found to have had CTE?  Maybe that he would have lived to 117 without it?

Possibly, but 117 would certainly skew the median age.   :)
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zebradynasty

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #70 on: July 25, 2017, 02:42:07 pm »

Wow! I can't believe how anyone could dismiss that article as if it was nothing more than coffee shop talk! I'm going to mark that as just flaw in humans...we hate when someone tells us we can't or shouldn't do something!

It didn't take a team of scientist to tell us that slamming your head violently around over and over again isn't good for the brain. Just like not everyone that smokes don't get lung cancer not everyone who plays football will get CTE. But just like smoking increases the likelihood of cancer....No need to get all defensive it is what it is! Maybe with the increased attention we can now focus on preventive methods (other than not playing). Also, it might take some years to see if the new concussion protocols have any affect on those numbers.
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EastexHawg

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #71 on: July 25, 2017, 02:44:04 pm »

Quote
Mike Freeman of CBS Sports obtained a copy of an e-mail that was sent to retired players who played before 1993, and it contained reference to a recent study by the National Institute of Occupational Health and Safety that found NFL players are living longer than the general population.

Here are some basic parameters of the study. They used all players (subject to a few exclusions when they couldn’t confirm things like race) who played 5+ seasons between 1959 and 1988. Thus, the youngest players would have started in 1984, and the oldest began playing in 1950. The median player in the study was born in 1950. The data collection for the study closed on December 31, 2007, so events that happened after that date are not included. They began tracking a player for mortality rate purposes after he completed his fifth season, and continued until either death or the end of the study period. They compared mortality rates for various categories at each age.

The study found that NFL players during this period lived longer than the average male. 3,439 players were included in the study, and 334 were deceased by the end of 2007. Based on racial distribution, age, and calendar year, the expected number of deaths for a male population of that size was 625.

http://thebiglead.com/2012/05/09/breaking-down-the-study-on-nfl-life-expectancy/
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hogsanity

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #72 on: July 25, 2017, 02:44:11 pm »

Is there a point to be made if a former football player dies at age 87 and is found to have had CTE?  Maybe that he would have lived to 117 without it?

No, the point to be made is that a lot of former nfl players that donated their brains to science upon their death or for other reasons had their brain looked at after death, have CTE.
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31to6

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #73 on: July 25, 2017, 02:47:56 pm »

Q.  If I self-select smokers, won't I get a higher rate of lung cancer than if I select people that don't smoke?  Aren't they monkeying with the data?
A.  Absolutely not.  We are not concerned with architects getting CTE (I am an architect), and the AIA has not said that CTE isn't a danger in our profession.  The architectural profession's retirees are not exhibiting early altzheimer's / dementia.  We ARE, however, concerned with former NFL players having the disease, and their league office has denied the connection.  Smoking was allegedly risk free for decades before study proved the opposite. 
I don't fully accept your logic here. They only way to have a fully valid study would be random sampling. The players and/or the families of the players in question were motivated to donate their bodies/brains to science. Those motivations could (likely did) skew the sample.

That being said, 110 out of 111 is a stunning number even if the sample is self-selecting to a degree. Even if it is only 90% or 80% or even 30% it's a serious concern.
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redneckfriend

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #74 on: July 25, 2017, 02:49:25 pm »

This is getting silly. The study looked at a substantial number of players across the football spectrum. There was some cherry picking admittedly because many former player's families wanted the brains studied because of aberrant behavior. The longer one played football the greater the chance of brain damage. Also linemen, presumably because of the constant head butting, even though not necessarily causing clinical concussions, had a higher incidence suggesting (not proving) that concussion is not an adequate clinical marker.

People love football, players and fans, but the problem is the risk at present appears to be substantial, at least for a player who played for many years. Since kids can't make a truly informed choice there is a serpent in the garden. How do parents and coaches ensure that kids are making a fully informed choice? There isn't an answer now and there won't be until more studies are done on a random, larger cross section of players at all levels (including former players who didn't show clear symptoms at the time of death). Denial of the problem or easily refuted rationalizations ("I know old ladies with dementia" Really?! You do understand that all dementia- actually far and away most dementia, is NOT CTE don't you?) don't help anyone.

 If those who are passionate about the game want to help and if they played football at any level they might consider donating their brains to a lab doing research on the subject-after death of course. Only with more data can the problem be fully understood. When it is understood in whatever magnitude it exists and is acknowledged by football organizations then real remedial measures can be taken, if necessary, to save the sport.

This study appears to conclude that "Tau" buildup is the physiological indicator they used to determine that the owner had CTE.  Just good to note that CTE is not the only cause of Tau protein buildup.  Alzheimer's and other forms of dimentia diseases also point to Tau buildup, and of course we know that the general population get these diseases (including ex-football players).  It does make sense that football can lead to permanent head injuries, but this article is hardly a good indicator of it IMHO.  Maybe the original study report would provide more compelling information, such as a statistical comparison between the incident rates of ex-football players and the general population.  I'm not saying that football-induced CTE is not real, but that this article does very little to substantiate it.  I wonder who funded the study.
 

See below from the study involving the primary criterion for diagnosing "CTE"
"Neuropathological criteria for CTE require at least 1 perivascular ptau lesion consisting of ptau aggregates in neurons, astrocytes, and cell processes around a small blood vessel; these pathognomonic CTE lesions are most often distributed at the depths of the sulci in the cerebral cortex and are distinct from the lesions of aging-related tau astrogliopathy."

The word "pathognomonic" above means the particular lesion identified is dispositive for CTE.
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zebradynasty

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #75 on: July 25, 2017, 02:58:06 pm »

http://thebiglead.com/2012/05/09/breaking-down-the-study-on-nfl-life-expectancy/

That article raised just as many questions to it's validity as the CTE study. NFL players living longer can be attributed to a lot of different things. Better healthcare, better nutrition, improved support for NFL retirees.... None of that was mention. No one expects or is suggesting that CTE will affect players at the same rate as the sample. But with that high of percentage diagnosed...all that can't attributed to the numbers being skewed.
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EastexHawg

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #76 on: July 25, 2017, 02:59:40 pm »

This is horrendous.  If it weren't for the fact that a government (Centers for Disease Control/National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health) study found that NFL players live longer on average than the rest of the population it would be even worse...bordering on catastrophic!

I wonder how much money there is to be made from CTE litigation and settlements.  But no...that couldn't possibly be a consideration.
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EastexHawg

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #77 on: July 25, 2017, 03:03:06 pm »

That article raised just as many questions to it's validity as the CTE study. NFL players living longer can be attributed to a lot of different things. Better healthcare, better nutrition, improved support for NFL retirees.... None of that was mention. No one expects or is suggesting that CTE will affect players at the same rate as the sample. But with that high of percentage diagnosed...all that can't attributed to the numbers being skewed.

Players who die are a part of the population.  They aren't a separate subset.  When a CDC study shows that NFL players live longer than the average American male, players who die young, violently, or in any other way are factored into those findings.
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hogsanity

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #78 on: July 25, 2017, 03:03:29 pm »

Funny how people go from " a study shows 110 or 11 former nfl players showed signs of cte......" to " OH MAN THEY ARE TRYING TO END FOOTBALL ".
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zebradynasty

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #79 on: July 25, 2017, 03:08:34 pm »

Players who die are a part of the population.  They aren't a separate subset.  When a CDC study shows that NFL players live longer than the average American male, players who die young, violently, or in any other way are factored into those findings.

Not sure I follow.
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longpig

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #80 on: July 25, 2017, 03:09:53 pm »

How did you know I got my G.E.D?   I worked hard for it, and I am still proud of it!  Oh, and thank you for mentioning Valedictorian;  the feminism/liberals are trying to get rid of it because it hurts people's feelings.

http://dailycaller.com/2017/06/17/schools-worry-about-kids-getting-too-competitive-remove-valedictorian-status/

Congratulations on your success.  I can imagine it was extremely hard for you.
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LRHog

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #81 on: July 25, 2017, 03:17:32 pm »

I guess you missed this part.

Findings:

In a convenience sample of 202 deceased players of American football from a brain donation program,CTE was neuropathologically diagnosed in 177 players across all levels of play (87%), including 110 of 111 former National Football League players (99%).

Do you realize how small of a sample that is? Literally nothing definitive can be derived from a sample size that small. Any independent scientist who's speaking with no bias will tell you that.
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311Hog

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #82 on: July 25, 2017, 03:23:32 pm »

Do you realize how small of a sample that is? Literally nothing definitive can be derived from a sample size that small. Any independent scientist who's speaking with no bias will tell you that.

do you realize how small the sample size is of people who have simply played in the NFL?
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EastexHawg

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #83 on: July 25, 2017, 03:27:23 pm »

Not sure I follow.

It means even taking into account players who die "young" because of CTE or any other reason, NFL players live longer on average than non-NFL players.  Apparently a lot of people in other walks of life are dying even younger. 
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bennyl08

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #84 on: July 25, 2017, 03:29:54 pm »

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertglatter/2016/11/28/brain-abnormalities-linked-to-head-impacts-after-just-one-season-of-high-school-football/#a747bc62a21c

24 high school football players on a team were randomly selected to participate in a study. They underwent MRI's before the season started to get a baseline of their brains. They then wore special football helmets with sensors during practices and games. After the season was over, the cumulative impacts were measured and follow up MRI's were done.

This isn't the NFL, this isn't decades of playing. This was one season of HS football. After just one season, physical and functional changes to the brains were observed with a direct correlation to the amount of change and the amount of impact accumulated over the season (not so much a correlation to the maximum impact). None of the kids in the study suffered any concussions. This is changes to the brain accumulated over just one season of almost the lowest level of football that can be played.

The article is quick to point out that the changes to the brain are not necessarily permanent. That would require a longer study. These kids are young and the brain may revert back to the baseline state. It is also possible, albeit statistically unlikely, that the changes to the brain were from factors entirely unrelated to football. That it is completely coincidental that the amount of change is correlated to the amount of impact.

However, assuming that the researchers didn't just have 1 in a thousand bad luck, it is pretty damning evidence about the impact that football can have on the brain in a short time at a low level of competition. It would be really interesting to see how those changes persist over time or not. Does the brain heal if given 6 months relief? 1 year? 10 years? Ever? Does it scale up linearly or non-linearly?
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RyanMallettsEgo

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #85 on: July 25, 2017, 03:31:56 pm »

Do you realize how small of a sample that is? Literally nothing definitive can be derived from a sample size that small. Any independent scientist who's speaking with no bias will tell you that.

Look up extrapolation, amigo.

And see Benny's post above mine.
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bennyl08

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #86 on: July 25, 2017, 03:34:38 pm »

Do you realize how small of a sample that is? Literally nothing definitive can be derived from a sample size that small. Any independent scientist who's speaking with no bias will tell you that.

Hahaha, that's a good joke.

...At least I hope you were joking...
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hogsanity

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #87 on: July 25, 2017, 03:42:40 pm »

It means even taking into account players who die "young" because of CTE or any other reason, NFL players live longer on average than non-NFL players.  Apparently a lot of people in other walks of life are dying even younger. 

People die all the time. Young, old, in good health or bad, tall, short, fat, skinny, smokers, non smokers, drinkers, non drinkers. A friend of mine lost his 51 yr old dad yesterday, suddenly.

Death is not the point of this though. This is just another thing that has been found out through research. Just like ways to make players bigger, stronger, faster. Look at the size of linemen 40 years ago compared to today. Or all other positions for that matter.

No one is saying get rid of football, but players and parents should be made aware of this possible risk just like the risk of knee injuries, ankles, etc.
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threeNout

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #88 on: July 25, 2017, 03:43:12 pm »

just clone that one guy.
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EastexHawg

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #89 on: July 25, 2017, 04:36:43 pm »

People die all the time. Young, old, in good health or bad, tall, short, fat, skinny, smokers, non smokers, drinkers, non drinkers. A friend of mine lost his 51 yr old dad yesterday, suddenly.

Death is not the point of this though. This is just another thing that has been found out through research. Just like ways to make players bigger, stronger, faster. Look at the size of linemen 40 years ago compared to today. Or all other positions for that matter.

No one is saying get rid of football, but players and parents should be made aware of this possible risk just like the risk of knee injuries, ankles, etc.

There are risks in every endeavor, and even those who endeavor to do nothing are going to die.  Having said that, the numbers show that men who play NFL football live longer lives than those who don't.  We can try to figure out why that is if we want.  Do they get paid more and can afford better medical care?  Are they in better shape than people who don't play sports?  Are they less likely to smoke because doing so might hurt their conditioning and endurance?  Do they learn better nutrition because of their sport?

Even if we do that, so what?  I suppose we could make the case that if only someone would pay men somewhere between hundreds of thousands and millions of dollars per year, provide them with physicals and high dollar health care, give them incredible workout facilities and access to nutritionists, and somehow the motivation to take advantage of those perks...all for doing nothing, and certainly not for playing football...we would really be onto something good.

Hank Williams sang about it and Jim Morrison's biography echoes it...no one gets out of this world alive.  Playing football or not playing football isn't going to change that fact.
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The Kig

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #90 on: July 25, 2017, 04:46:12 pm »

CTE in football should be an undeniable accepted truth.  Considering the median age of 66 from the study group AND the high likelihood that the donor pool came from patients suspected of having some issue may have skewed the percentages, but only a fool would think that banging your head for a living isn't the culprit.  Concussion protocols and technology have changed quite a bit in the 40+ years since most of these guys retired.  However, so has the athlete and technology can only do so much.  Today's NFL player is generally stronger, much faster, and quite a bit larger at most positions...which is also contributing to more orthopedic related career ending injuries. 

Does that mean football dissappears?  Doubtful,  but it will have to evolve or risk diminished participation /interest.  As long as the money is there, so will football.  Americans (and humans in general) love their bloodsport, violence, and gladiators.  Look at the rise in popularity of MMA, another sport where the objectives are to either knock your opponent out, get him to give up or get the judges to decide who inflicted the most damage/ inflicted damage the most skillfully.  Since we can't have opponents actually kill each other like the gladiators of yore, we settle for orchestrated violence. 

As it stands right now, players are an expendable commodity.  Look no further than the devaluation of the RB position in the NFL Draft over the past couple of decades.  They are the primary recipients of the beatings and don't last long.  Player safety will only become a priority when the owners have to pay for breaking their toys.  It's ALWAYS about the money. 
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hogsanity

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #91 on: July 25, 2017, 04:54:44 pm »

There are risks in every endeavor, and even those who endeavor to do nothing are going to die.  Having said that, the numbers show that men who play NFL football live longer lives than those who don't.  We can try to figure out why that is if we want.  Do they get paid more and can afford better medical care?  Are they in better shape than people who don't play sports?  Are they less likely to smoke because doing so might hurt their conditioning and endurance?  Do they learn better nutrition because of their sport?

Even if we do that, so what?  I suppose we could make the case that if only someone would pay men somewhere between hundreds of thousands and millions of dollars per year, provide them with physicals and high dollar health care, give them incredible workout facilities and access to nutritionists, and somehow the motivation to take advantage of those perks...all for doing nothing, and certainly not for playing football...we would really be onto something good.

Hank Williams sang about it and Jim Morrison's biography echoes it...no one gets out of this world alive.  Playing football or not playing football isn't going to change that fact.

I dont disagree at all. My question this whole thread has been why do some react so violently when this or other football risk factors are brought up.

Sadly, the odds are pretty good that sometime in August we will hear of a player or players having heat strokes during practice. With the advances on training, the knowledge we have now about hydration and other factors that come into play one would think that would not happen. When it does, questions will arise about why are they practicing at 3pm, the hottest part of the day, or other factors. I always wondered why they did not practice at 7pm, that's when they play during the season. And when it gets brought up some will post about how we are trying to turn the game into flag football, etc. When all we are doing is asking why a kid died because the coach thought it was a great idea to practice at 3pm.
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tophawg19

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #92 on: July 25, 2017, 05:03:21 pm »

I guess you missed this part.

Findings:

In a convenience sample of 202 deceased players of American football from a brain donation program, CTE was neuropathologically diagnosed in 177 players across all levels of play (87%), including 110 of 111 former National Football League players (99%).

Keep in mind that most of those players played with poor equipment and hand slaps to the head was legal . and at the avg. age of 66 we assume football caused it but those guys lived long lives after football . Did they ride motor cycles ? sky dive ? there are a number of out side factors involved . no doubt football caused some with those crappy helmets and big hits but they just as easily could have come from other life experiences for them. connecting it to football is a huge reach
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greenie

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #93 on: July 25, 2017, 06:05:47 pm »


See below from the study involving the primary criterion for diagnosing "CTE"
"Neuropathological criteria for CTE require at least 1 perivascular ptau lesion consisting of ptau aggregates in neurons, astrocytes, and cell processes around a small blood vessel; these pathognomonic CTE lesions are most often distributed at the depths of the sulci in the cerebral cortex and are distinct from the lesions of aging-related tau astrogliopathy."

The word "pathognomonic" above means the particular lesion identified is dispositive for CTE.

As I implied in my post, I didn't read the original report, but after spending 20 years in academic research, I understand how funded research works.  If there's a funding-organization bias (and there almost always is), things tend to turn out in favor of the bias...in hopes of getting more funding.  That's why I asked who funded the study.  If it's the NFL, I tend to think that they may want to hide a correlation.  If it's the "People for the Ethical Treatment of Athletes", I tend to think they they may want to find a correlation.

I don't know what the truth is, and really don't care much what it is.  I'm just always suspicious of statistics-based research reported in the popular media.  My guess is that if you hit your head hard enough and often enough, you'll sustain some permanent damage.  But that's just a hunch. 

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oldfart

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #94 on: July 25, 2017, 06:22:47 pm »

could we try for once to keep a topic on subject? especially a topic such as this..  yes it was a skewed sample size but enough for consideration....
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bennyl08

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #95 on: July 25, 2017, 06:36:10 pm »

There are risks in every endeavor, and even those who endeavor to do nothing are going to die.  Having said that, the numbers show that men who play NFL football live longer lives than those who don't.  We can try to figure out why that is if we want.  Do they get paid more and can afford better medical care?  Are they in better shape than people who don't play sports?  Are they less likely to smoke because doing so might hurt their conditioning and endurance?  Do they learn better nutrition because of their sport?

Even if we do that, so what?  I suppose we could make the case that if only someone would pay men somewhere between hundreds of thousands and millions of dollars per year, provide them with physicals and high dollar health care, give them incredible workout facilities and access to nutritionists, and somehow the motivation to take advantage of those perks...all for doing nothing, and certainly not for playing football...we would really be onto something good.

Hank Williams sang about it and Jim Morrison's biography echoes it...no one gets out of this world alive.  Playing football or not playing football isn't going to change that fact.

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? That's like responding to a study about the mercury levels in salmon and pointing out that the Omega-3 oils are healthy. That's great, but it doesn't solve the issues of mercury. Now, if people were talking about banning the sales of salmon, then pointing out that you have to eat quite a bit to accumulate much mercury and the benefits of eating salmon in moderation outweigh the harm is a great argument to make. However, when the conversation is simply about whether or not we can change to lower mercury levels in the fish we eat, such an argument is out of place and frankly useless.

Nobody is talking about the banning of football. The topic at hand is that the brain damage a person can receive from playing football is likely a good bit worse than many people realize. It is something that people should be aware of as a risk before playing. It is something worth taking a long look at ways that the risk can be minimized without altering the game too much.

Nobody is saying that physical exercise isn't healthy for you. Nobody is saying that you can't choose to risk injury for yourself if you choose (except maybe seat belt laws...). However, risks and potential dangers shouldn't be covered up and hidden from the participants. Further, they should be minimized as much as possible without changing the game too much. For example, actions such as chop blocks have been removed from the game to minimize the risk of ACL injuries by keeping people from deliberately trying to injury somebody's knees. They still happen, they are still a risk, but the risk has been reduced in a way that doesn't weaken the game. Brain trauma is a risk. It a greater risk than a lot of players realized going into it. Is it something that players in the future will be fine with risking? Is it a risk that can be reduced?
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MuskogeeHogFan

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #96 on: July 25, 2017, 06:39:54 pm »

Stop eating red meat. The government says it is as dangerous as smoking in terms of it being a carcinogen. Can't eat chicken either unless it is free range. Become a Vegan or a millionaire or lose your life.
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Cinco de Hogo

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #97 on: July 25, 2017, 06:52:24 pm »

You do not need to fear the [CENSORED].  My god some of you are not men.  Men do not cower and give off this false bravery.  It isn't bravery it is stupidity.  There is nothing feminist about damaging your brain over time, losing your mind and subsequently shooting yourself in the chest to try and proof to people you have a problem.

There is nothing feminist about knowing what you are getting into before you get into it.  I guess we should bring back led paint, remove gun safeties, tear the seat belts out of your car, stop making sun screen, .......

Juding/dismissing the message because of your bias (in most cases unfounded) for the messenger is a very stupid way to go through life.

I haven't dismissed the study at all although it is clear that it's so biased towards a certain outcome that it doesn't tell you much we don't already know.  Had you never heard of the correlation before?   How much do you think can be done to prevent it and at what age are we gonna let kids start "hitting"?   I gave credit to research already and it will give us some benifit in the future.  AND lawsuits will do there part to make sure certain parties actually pay attention.
All that is part of the process and the process started years ago and is on going.

My concern is for all you sissy pants that are running screaming to their mommies about the big dangerous game of football.  Don't you know it's been dangerous in a lot of way since it started?  I don't know if we will ever solve all the problems with what is a very violent game.  So the big question and the long term picture for this sport is very much up in the air.

What are YOU gonna do.. nothing!  Things are already in motion to figure out how to stop this terrible thing from happening.  However I predict that short of litigationing the NFL out of existence not much will change.  Like becoming a solider a very large percentage of young boys will still make the choice freely and parents will support and cheer them on.

And the weanie beanies will weep!
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redneckfriend

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #98 on: July 25, 2017, 07:41:56 pm »

Stop eating red meat. The government says it is as dangerous as smoking in terms of it being a carcinogen. Can't eat chicken either unless it is free range. Become a Vegan or a millionaire or lose your life.

So what does this mean- that it is a political issue? You don't believe it so it is "fake news"? Link please to your assertion that "the government says" that red meat is as dangerous as smoking. I haven't seen that reported. Perhaps you are making it up and it really is "fake news". "Lose your life"- is Jeff Sessions going to arrest you if you aren't a millionaire or a vegan? Wait- I got it now- it's that time of day isn't it? You're drunk.
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MuskogeeHogFan

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #99 on: July 25, 2017, 08:13:33 pm »

So what does this mean- that it is a political issue? You don't believe it so it is "fake news"? Link please to your assertion that "the government says" that red meat is as dangerous as smoking. I haven't seen that reported. Perhaps you are making it up and it really is "fake news". "Lose your life"- is Jeff Sessions going to arrest you if you aren't a millionaire or a vegan? Wait- I got it now- it's that time of day isn't it? You're drunk.

No, not "drunk", though I am sure you wish you could hang that on me.

It is really about half jesting. I've heard various media outlets assert this before, just heard it again today. Same with chicken. Last time I heard this it was attributed to how the meat was cooked. Now it is just generally that all meat is bad. So meat is bad, poultry is bad because of all the added chemicals unless you eat "free range chicken". OY! Best to confine your eating habits to fruits, veggies and nuts.

For those who remember, and in the total celebration of the life of Naturalist Euell Gibbons, "Some tree bark is edible".

Stop the insanity. Everything in moderation.

And as it applies to this thread, yes, guys who have a lot of violent impacts to the head are likely to have problems at some point, but there are also those who don't. Yes, bang your head against the equivalent of a concrete wall that hits back for 10 to 20 years and you might have some problems later in life. Just as a guy who weighs 235 lbs. but has violent impact with guys who weigh anywhere from 235 to 310 lbs. over a period of time might find that they have back or neck or knee problems later in life. It happens, not unexpected.

Football is a violent sport and injuries occur. Some rear their heads earlier, some don't manifest until later in life. That's just how it goes and it is the price that you pay for having played the sport. No one is un-informed. A price is to be paid because the human body wasn't meant to incur this many violent incidents of contact.

Everyone who plays realizes the risks. We are all responsible for our own decisions.
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