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Author Topic: Wow! New CTE study shows...  (Read 5094 times)

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bennyl08

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #150 on: July 26, 2017, 01:40:50 pm »

(From the originally cited article)

The study points out potential bias because relatives of these players may have submitted their brains due to clinical symptoms they noticed while they were living. It also acknowledges the lack of a comparison group that represents all individuals exposed to college-level or professional football. Without that, the study lacks an overall estimate on the risk of participation in football and its effects on the brain.

Out of 202 deceased former football players total -- a combination of high school, college and professional players -- CTE was neuropathologically diagnosed in 177, the study said. The disease was identified in 110 out of 111 former NFL players. It was also found in three of the 14 high school players and 48 of the 53 college players.

Although the disease cannot be formally diagnosed until after death, many of the symptoms of CTE that may be experienced during a lifetime, such as depression or anxiety, are treatable, Kutcher said. That is why its important for someone experiencing these symptoms to access a comprehensive evaluation by a neurologist, and work with them to figure out a treatment plan.

You have to look at the total person though," Kutcher said. "You have to understand why people play sports. It's an individual decision, everybody gets different things out of it. You also have to understand what the arc of their life is going to be, what their health is going to be at the end of their career."


Now there are the highlights of this article. Benny, you can say that players didn’t know the risks, but as I pointed out above, everyone, “who actually played”, especially at the college and NFL levels, were aware of the negativity of sustaining dings and actual concussions due to head trauma while playing. And, if you became a player who seemed to repeatedly get knocked out, 2 to 3 times in a single season, you were told that you could no longer play. I don't know your level of experience with the game but if you ever played at the HS level or above, I hope that you had a HC that was responsible enough to talk to players about these sustained head injuries and how they were going to handle those for the players and the family of the players, benefit.

I’m not saying that these studies aren’t important. I’m not saying that everyone should ignore sustained trauma to the brain through contact sports. I am saying that in the case of college and NFL players it is a matter of personal choice and personal responsibility. If you read again above, apparently Dr. Kutcher understands this.

First, I guess this is your way of apologizing and admitting you were wrong. That the study didn't only focus on NFL players. Apology accepted and it was very big of you to admit that you were wrong.

2. You are combining sustaining dings with concussions and being repeatedly knocked out. And that is the whole crux of the issue. Yes, it has been known for a very long time that getting knocked out repeatedly is bad and that concussions are bad. Maybe your definition of a ding is different from mine though. A ding to me would be something that makes you say ow, but a minute or two later, it doesn't hurt, no red mark is left, no bruise, no nothing. Very, very different from something like a concussion or being knocked out.

If your coaches were warning you that those sustained dings will lead to physical changes to your brain, then holy crap, they were decades ahead of their time seeing as nobody else was aware of that and people who actually research the brain are still trying to figure it out. Did your coach also have an iphone decades ago, because I'm guessing if he was aware of that issue that long ago, he was probably a time traveller. Because the idea that you don't have to have a hard hit to your head that you even come close to giving you a concussion or knock you out to damage your brain is a very new one. Your examples of getting knocked out, concussions, and actual head injuries being bad and known for a long time suggests that you don't really understand what is being said about CTE. You don't need to ever be knocked out, concussed or sustain any head injuries to develop CTE. Just the generic banging of heads that happens while playing football is enough.

Lastly, I'm not sure what your point in the last paragraph is. Yes, it is the player's choice and responsibility to play the game if they want. I'm glad the doctor understands that. Don't see how that relates to there being a newly discovered risk to playing football that people didn't know about before hand. 31to6 described it very well. We need to research this more, and it will probably take a decade before we can actually know enough about CTE to move forward with minimizing it. When we do know enough about it, it becomes a question of are we doing enough to protect, and if not, can we change the sport in a way that lets it be the physical sport is should be and keep the spirit of the game while bringing the risks down to an acceptable level.

In the meantime, while we are still learning about the disease, it becomes a question of what will be acceptable levels of risk for the players? Having arthritis when you are 40 changes what you can do, but not who you are as a person. CTE changes your brain and to a degree, changes who you are. How many players will accept that risk? How many parents will accept that risk for their children thus potentially changing the talent pool? When the players are adults, it becomes their decision whether to continue playing or not, as it should be. I mean, people die climbing mountains all the time, yet it is still a popular hobby for many including myself. However, if something in future came out that simply being outside in below freezing temperatures would damage my brain even if I'm wearing warm clothes, I'd either stop of at least greatly reduce the time I spend doing it. We've seen several talented young players retire early from football despite having no concussions or anything like what RW3 had.

Best thing we can do right now is to research it more so that we can know how prevalent it is, whether it can be prevented or reversed, and then if there is anything we can do to change the game without changing what the game is. For example, maybe given time, the brain will heal itself and thus mandatory 4 months of offseason would be implemented such that damage from one season has time to heal and doesn't carry over to the next such that after several years it becomes permanent. Who knows. That's why we need to study it and research.
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hoggusamoungus

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #151 on: July 26, 2017, 01:51:48 pm »

Article on Jerry Eckwood from 2010.  Been in assisted living since age 55.


https://www.arktimes.com/ArkansasBlog/archives/2010/02/02/remember-jerry-eckwood
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FrozenHam

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The source material
« Reply #152 on: July 26, 2017, 02:41:09 pm »

The full scientific article which every aforementioned source cites was published by Jesse Mez et al. at Boston University Alzheimer’s Disease and CTE Center on July 25, 2017, and is available to read from the Journal of the American Medical Association at:  http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2645104

 

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HamSammich

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #153 on: July 26, 2017, 02:56:48 pm »

Football is dangerous, no doubt. But how many people are affected by CTE? Most people stop playing football in high school.  Not many high school players with CTE,

Not to enter this colossal and brilliant hogville peeing contest.... but that statement is an assumption.

CTE is only diagnosed by mailing your brain off.
I have a sneaky suspicion that a lot of crime and suicide occur from cte and we just don't know yet.


I've done judo all of my life... I think there is a great chance I have CTE. I ran across my old high school football team mate 6 years ago. He could barely speak... he was the MLB... CTE? I dunno he was pretty dumb back in the day so I'm not sure. What if we are screwing up our kids noodles with something as innocent looking as jr high football and football camps??


We just don't know. So yeah when our society becomes smart enough to realize how much we don't know about these things I'm fairly sure the fear of the unknown will hasten is all to the e-sport era. God help us all.
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MuskogeeHogFan

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #154 on: July 26, 2017, 02:58:53 pm »

2. You are combining sustaining dings with concussions and being repeatedly knocked out. And that is the whole crux of the issue. Yes, it has been known for a very long time that getting knocked out repeatedly is bad and that concussions are bad. Maybe your definition of a ding is different from mine though. A ding to me would be something that makes you say ow, but a minute or two later, it doesn't hurt, no red mark is left, no bruise, no nothing. Very, very different from something like a concussion or being knocked out.

If your coaches were warning you that those sustained dings will lead to physical changes to your brain, then holy crap, they were decades ahead of their time seeing as nobody else was aware of that and people who actually research the brain are still trying to figure it out. Did your coach also have an iphone decades ago, because I'm guessing if he was aware of that issue that long ago, he was probably a time traveller.

So if you don't know the difference between getting "dinged" and having a "concussion", my guess is that if you played at all, you didn't play to a very high level so I can see why you are trying to get a little cutesy in your response. There is a difference. Like the difference in being stunned and seeing stars and being completely knocked out. Of course there have been instances of players being knocked out on their feet, where somehow they continue to function and run plays but have no recall of having done so. That normally lasts for a short period of time, 2 maybe 3 plays at the most. I don't know from a medical standpoint how that happens, but I've seen it happen and experienced it myself.

And yes Benny, I understand about CTE and all of the things that they are talking about.

And you know Benny, I really don't appreciate you being a smart ass. You think you are being cute and smart, but you just look petty and small. Your attitude really isn't necessary or called for.

Our coaches years ago paid great attention to kids (at least mine did) getting dinged and knocked out and of course they took as good of care of us as they could, along with the team physician and our personal physicians. And obviously we were not lucky enough to have the benefit of all of the study and research that has transpired since that time, but they did all that they could and as I said, once a kid suffered 2-3 concussions or seemed to be more susceptible to getting frequently dinged, they usually told the kid it was time to not play anymore.
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EastexHawg

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #155 on: July 26, 2017, 03:03:38 pm »

Here you go again. I mean, you are basically having a dueling oratory with yourself. Driving in a car is dangerous, yet people live longer since the car was invented. Neither of those statement contradict the other. Football is dangerous. It absolutely is. People have known that since it was first invented. However, being physically active and in good shape is healthy. There's a reason the NFL is said to have a 100% injury rate, because the sport is violent. Somebody working 9-5 in a cubicle is much less likely to experience an ACL tear than a football player, but are more likely to have other health problems. The longevity of players has nothing to do with the danger of the sport. Which is why it is confusing that you keep bringing that up in a way that it sounds like you think you are countering the danger argument. In reality, you are basically just arguing that oranges are orange in response to apples are red.

I'm not confused at all.  I know that employers aren't likely to pay people who work in cubicles $800,000 to $8,000,000 per year for their services.  I know that most Americans are obese.  Why are they obese?  Could it be because they don't have $8 million incentives to work out and stay in shape? 

You can't separate the benefits of playing NFL football from the risks because (almost) none of these guys are going to be paid what they are paid, nor are they nearly as likely to be in pristine physical shape, if they aren't professional football players.

That said...AGAIN...despite the risks men who play NFL football live longer than those who don't.  They also typically make a lot more money than the rest of us.  In 2017 the average NFL salary is $1.9 million per year.  Every player in the CDC mortality study played at least five years.  Basically, an average NFL player today who makes it five seasons will earn $9.5 million.  What percentage of the U.S. population earns that much in their lifetimes?  At $75,000 per year you would have to work 127 years to earn more than what these guys are raking in over five.

Let's see...make exponentially more money, live longer...

Are you going to laugh at the guy who subjected himself to so much risk and injury, but could buy and sell you with the money he made doing it, when you are on your death bed and he is still alive and kicking? 
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Hoggish1

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #156 on: July 26, 2017, 04:51:01 pm »

Pretty staggering.

Let's start by removing any contact from the sport until the 10th grade.  That could help with the brain trauma.  I didn't put on a uniform till 10th grade JV team and in that year we only had four games at most.

Before that, as kids, we played tackle on grass in pickup games in sandlots.  There was a lot of crisp tackling and blocking but nobody ever lead with their heads in those rough games.

It would seem to me that brains sloshing around from hits in pee wee football would start a player out on the wrong foot in the slosh around brain department.

Lets keep brains from sloshing till 15 or 16.
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hoggusamoungus

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #157 on: July 26, 2017, 05:12:07 pm »

I'm not confused at all.  I know that employers aren't likely to pay people who work in cubicles $800,000 to $8,000,000 per year for their services.  I know that most Americans are obese.  Why are they obese?  Could it be because they don't have $8 million incentives to work out and stay in shape? 

You can't separate the benefits of playing NFL football from the risks because (almost) none of these guys are going to be paid what they are paid, nor are they nearly as likely to be in pristine physical shape, if they aren't professional football players.

That said...AGAIN...despite the risks men who play NFL football live longer than those who don't.  They also typically make a lot more money than the rest of us.  In 2017 the average NFL salary is $1.9 million per year.  Every player in the CDC mortality study played at least five years.  Basically, an average NFL player today who makes it five seasons will earn $9.5 million.  What percentage of the U.S. population earns that much in their lifetimes?  At $75,000 per year you would have to work 127 years to earn more than what these guys are raking in over five.

Let's see...make exponentially more money, live longer...

Are you going to laugh at the guy who subjected himself to so much risk and injury, but could buy and sell you with the money he made doing it, when you are on your death bed and he is still alive and kicking?

They may make exponentially more but 78% are bankrupt within five years of retirement.  Sad.

http://www.munknee.com/78-of-nfl-players-go-bankrupt-within-5-years/
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MuskogeeHogFan

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #158 on: July 26, 2017, 05:22:38 pm »

They may make exponentially more but 78% are bankrupt within five years of retirement.  Sad.

http://www.munknee.com/78-of-nfl-players-go-bankrupt-within-5-years/

What is even more sad is that I believe that they are provided with all kinds of financial guidance by the NFL to help them learn how to handle and conserve their money. Many of them end up running with a "Posse" that is made up of the wrong kind of people. Their Posse's should consist of an Agent/Lawyer/Banker/Investment Advisor as opposed to all the friends/family members/hot women who come out of the woodwork once you sign a big contract.
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bennyl08

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #159 on: July 26, 2017, 07:53:47 pm »

I'm not confused at all.  I know that employers aren't likely to pay people who work in cubicles $800,000 to $8,000,000 per year for their services.  I know that most Americans are obese.  Why are they obese?  Could it be because they don't have $8 million incentives to work out and stay in shape? 

You can't separate the benefits of playing NFL football from the risks because (almost) none of these guys are going to be paid what they are paid, nor are they nearly as likely to be in pristine physical shape, if they aren't professional football players.

That said...AGAIN...despite the risks men who play NFL football live longer than those who don't.  They also typically make a lot more money than the rest of us.  In 2017 the average NFL salary is $1.9 million per year.  Every player in the CDC mortality study played at least five years.  Basically, an average NFL player today who makes it five seasons will earn $9.5 million.  What percentage of the U.S. population earns that much in their lifetimes?  At $75,000 per year you would have to work 127 years to earn more than what these guys are raking in over five.

Let's see...make exponentially more money, live longer...

Are you going to laugh at the guy who subjected himself to so much risk and injury, but could buy and sell you with the money he made doing it, when you are on your death bed and he is still alive and kicking?

Depends on if he said something funny. Further, odds are, when we are both 50, I'll still be able to go on a hike while his knees either won't take it, or will have had to be replaced while mine still work fine. Further, you do realize that most NFL players don't stay rich very long, right?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/leighsteinberg/2015/02/09/5-reasons-why-80-of-retired-nfl-players-go-broke/#37903f2d78cc

Draw 10 NFL retiree names out of a hat and I probably have more money in my bank account than 8 of them. The other 2 will probably donate more money in their retirement than I'll earn in my lifetime.

If you can't separate the risks from the benefits, then that is your right to not do that. However, I don't find that to be a particularly useful outlook. When you refuse to discuss the risks simply because the benefits outweigh the risks, then you'll never mitigate the risks and thus increase the benefits. Sure, if a person only focuses on the risks, they could lose sight of the bigger picture that the benefits outweigh the risks. It is important to be able to do both. Focus on one aspect at a time and also see the bigger picture.
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Pork Twain

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #160 on: July 27, 2017, 04:01:53 am »

The more padding they give these players, the more indestructible they feel.  Cut back on the padding and you cut back on the head injuries.
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cityhog

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #161 on: July 27, 2017, 11:39:34 pm »

Bring back leather helmets and this crap ends.
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clutch

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #162 on: July 28, 2017, 12:49:05 am »

I'd like to see a study of the more average football player. Millions of people have played football, most of those millions haven't played in the NFL. The NFL is an extreme example in my opinion. Those are the biggest, strongest, fastest athletes on the planet crashing into each other repeatedly throughout the length of a game. That is far from the impact that Jr. High and High school players see, and for the most part even college players.

In the NFL, there is a great chance for a concussion with every hit. I don't feel that risk is nearly as high for lower levels. NFL players know the risks, and the are compensated for it nicely. It's an inherent risk of the job, and they choose the risk because of the paycheck.

I don't want to see football die because of the scare of concussions if the studies are only based off of the NFL. It's just more than likely not an accurate view.

I do want to see advances in concussion prevention at all levels, but I just still don't see it being a huge problem at lower levels right now. I see a lot of high school football and football players. I coach high school football. We really see very few concussions. I don't think it's because we aren't qualified to diagnose them, we have multiple people around that are very qualified to diagnose concussions. Coaches trained in concussion symptoms, athletic trainers, EMTs and Paramedics at games, etc. We just don't see a lot of them.

We do implement a lot of the rugby style tackling, head to the side rolling the hips, and I think that helps a lot. Whenever we do see concussions it's almost always from poor tackling technique going head to head.

With all that said, football is a violent game. However, with proper equipment and your normal "athlete" that plays football at the high school level, it isn't that violent. So I just don't see the CTE stuff being as big of a deal for the majority of people that put on the pads. It's a very small fraction of people that are putting the pads on Sunday afternoons, or even in high level college football, and that's where you will see the majority of the problem in my opinion. Unfortunately, that's what most of the population sees, so they associate that with all levels of football.
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HamSammich

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #163 on: July 28, 2017, 01:11:49 am »

The more padding they give these players, the more indestructible they feel.  Cut back on the padding and you cut back on the head injuries.

Exactly. You don't see this in rugby.
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twistitup

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #164 on: July 28, 2017, 05:24:21 am »

Requiring routine brain scans would help us see the truth  - but this might also end the game as we know it.
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Pork Twain

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #165 on: July 28, 2017, 10:01:33 am »

Exactly. You don't see this in rugby.
Was not an issue in football until the padding the players started wearing made them feel invincible.  Leading with your head did not used to be so common.  There used to be a few guys that were known as hard hitters and a few RBs that would lower their head and plow you, now it is everyone.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 10:30:40 am by Pork Twain »
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clutch

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #166 on: July 28, 2017, 10:30:00 am »

Was not an issue in football until the padding the players started wearing made them feel invincible.  Leading with your head did not used to be so common

It's probably hard to tell if that's the truth or not though. The players they tested probably weren't from that era.

I don't think it was as big of a problem, but I think a lot of that had to do with the fact that football players in that era just weren't nearly as big and strong as they are now. Add in that the guys now are running at you faster than ever and you have a concussion problem in the NFL.
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Peter Porker

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #167 on: July 28, 2017, 11:38:15 am »

I'd like to see a study of the more average football player. Millions of people have played football, most of those millions haven't played in the NFL. The NFL is an extreme example in my opinion. Those are the biggest, strongest, fastest athletes on the planet crashing into each other repeatedly throughout the length of a game. That is far from the impact that Jr. High and High school players see, and for the most part even college players.

In the NFL, there is a great chance for a concussion with every hit. I don't feel that risk is nearly as high for lower levels. NFL players know the risks, and the are compensated for it nicely. It's an inherent risk of the job, and they choose the risk because of the paycheck.

I don't want to see football die because of the scare of concussions if the studies are only based off of the NFL. It's just more than likely not an accurate view.

I do want to see advances in concussion prevention at all levels, but I just still don't see it being a huge problem at lower levels right now. I see a lot of high school football and football players. I coach high school football. We really see very few concussions. I don't think it's because we aren't qualified to diagnose them, we have multiple people around that are very qualified to diagnose concussions. Coaches trained in concussion symptoms, athletic trainers, EMTs and Paramedics at games, etc. We just don't see a lot of them.

We do implement a lot of the rugby style tackling, head to the side rolling the hips, and I think that helps a lot. Whenever we do see concussions it's almost always from poor tackling technique going head to head.

With all that said, football is a violent game. However, with proper equipment and your normal "athlete" that plays football at the high school level, it isn't that violent. So I just don't see the CTE stuff being as big of a deal for the majority of people that put on the pads. It's a very small fraction of people that are putting the pads on Sunday afternoons, or even in high level college football, and that's where you will see the majority of the problem in my opinion. Unfortunately, that's what most of the population sees, so they associate that with all levels of football.

Did you read the article?
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MuskogeeHogFan

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #168 on: July 28, 2017, 11:44:00 am »

Did you read the article?

They studied 14 high school players and something like 58 college football players. Under any standard you can't say that is an adequate sample from which to draw accurate conclusions.
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Pork Twain

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #169 on: July 28, 2017, 12:33:46 pm »

They studied 14 high school players and something like 58 college football players. Under any standard you can't say that is an adequate sample from which to draw accurate conclusions.
Agreed, playing through high school and even college, you are probably still fine.
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MuskogeeHogFan

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #170 on: July 28, 2017, 12:40:32 pm »

Agreed, playing through high school and even college, you are probably still fine.

I'm not meaning to say that, I just mean that they haven't studied enough cases yet to draw any firm conclusions. Now certainly there is cause for concern. So, why don't they contact one of the bigger high schools for football in the country, or maybe one from every region, and see if they can obtain permission to talk to and test former players from 30-40 years ago and while they are at, from 20 years ago. That might give you a more substantial sample to study.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 01:13:54 pm by MuskogeeHogFan »
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bennyl08

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #171 on: July 28, 2017, 01:10:22 pm »

I'd like to see a study of the more average football player. Millions of people have played football, most of those millions haven't played in the NFL. The NFL is an extreme example in my opinion. Those are the biggest, strongest, fastest athletes on the planet crashing into each other repeatedly throughout the length of a game. That is far from the impact that Jr. High and High school players see, and for the most part even college players.

In the NFL, there is a great chance for a concussion with every hit. I don't feel that risk is nearly as high for lower levels. NFL players know the risks, and the are compensated for it nicely. It's an inherent risk of the job, and they choose the risk because of the paycheck.

I don't want to see football die because of the scare of concussions if the studies are only based off of the NFL. It's just more than likely not an accurate view.

I do want to see advances in concussion prevention at all levels, but I just still don't see it being a huge problem at lower levels right now. I see a lot of high school football and football players. I coach high school football. We really see very few concussions. I don't think it's because we aren't qualified to diagnose them, we have multiple people around that are very qualified to diagnose concussions. Coaches trained in concussion symptoms, athletic trainers, EMTs and Paramedics at games, etc. We just don't see a lot of them.

We do implement a lot of the rugby style tackling, head to the side rolling the hips, and I think that helps a lot. Whenever we do see concussions it's almost always from poor tackling technique going head to head.

With all that said, football is a violent game. However, with proper equipment and your normal "athlete" that plays football at the high school level, it isn't that violent. So I just don't see the CTE stuff being as big of a deal for the majority of people that put on the pads. It's a very small fraction of people that are putting the pads on Sunday afternoons, or even in high level college football, and that's where you will see the majority of the problem in my opinion. Unfortunately, that's what most of the population sees, so they associate that with all levels of football.

If you read through the thread, I posted a link where they tracked changes to the brain of high school players over the course of a single season. They did two types of MRI's, I forget the exact terminology for them before the season. Had the students wear sensored helmets during the season including practice, tracking all the forces on the helmet over the course of the season and ended up with cumulative total force, cumulative rotational, and linear. They then followed it up with MRI's again after the season.

The results: After just one season of HS football, each of the students showed marked physiological changes to their brains that was proportional to the cumulative impact they sustained throughout the season. None of the students incurred a concussion during the season or any impacts that were close to a concussion. The students were randomly selected from this team so there wasn't any positional or size bias.

Limitations of the study are also noted. First, due to the nature of the study, all that can be said is that there is a correlation to changes in the brain to the cumulative impacts, and causation can't be inferred. These are HS students and their brains are still changing and will continue to change up to around the age of 25. However, that the amount of change was in fact proportional to the amount of impact sustained makes it highly likely that there is a causation. Just that this certainly doesn't prove it. The other major limitation of this study is the time frame. If we assume there is a causation, and that just the casual day to day impacts received playing football led to changes to the brain, what does that mean? The actual impact on the person from the changes observed isn't known. The brain has the ability to heal itself. The MRI was done shortly after the football season was over. What might happen if they do the scan again after the offseason? Will the changes remain or will they have gone back to what they originally were?
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MuskogeeHogFan

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #172 on: July 28, 2017, 01:22:41 pm »

If you read through the thread, I posted a link where they tracked changes to the brain of high school players over the course of a single season. They did two types of MRI's, I forget the exact terminology for them before the season. Had the students wear sensored helmets during the season including practice, tracking all the forces on the helmet over the course of the season and ended up with cumulative total force, cumulative rotational, and linear. They then followed it up with MRI's again after the season.

The results: After just one season of HS football, each of the students showed marked physiological changes to their brains that was proportional to the cumulative impact they sustained throughout the season. None of the students incurred a concussion during the season or any impacts that were close to a concussion. The students were randomly selected from this team so there wasn't any positional or size bias.

Limitations of the study are also noted. First, due to the nature of the study, all that can be said is that there is a correlation to changes in the brain to the cumulative impacts, and causation can't be inferred. These are HS students and their brains are still changing and will continue to change up to around the age of 25. However, that the amount of change was in fact proportional to the amount of impact sustained makes it highly likely that there is a causation. Just that this certainly doesn't prove it. The other major limitation of this study is the time frame. If we assume there is a causation, and that just the casual day to day impacts received playing football led to changes to the brain, what does that mean? The actual impact on the person from the changes observed isn't known. The brain has the ability to heal itself. The MRI was done shortly after the football season was over. What might happen if they do the scan again after the offseason? Will the changes remain or will they have gone back to what they originally were?

You make a good point but there are so many factors involved. Testing kids today is great. They should go back and test people who played in HS in the 60's and 70's and further study of that group if they played college football. Maybe they should go by decades and in terms of study groups, because I can guarantee you that the risk was probably higher for my group (Riddell Suspension System Helmets) than those who had the benefit of the McGregor 100MPH Helmet, Air Helmets, Water Helmets, etc. On the other hand, players have become bigger, stronger and faster at earlier ages as time has passed and more weight with greater speed increases the negative factor of impact. There is a lot to study here and there are a myriad of factors that are involved over the course of decades of players who participated at varying levels of play.
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HamSammich

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #173 on: July 28, 2017, 03:19:04 pm »

I'm not meaning to say that, I just mean that they haven't studied enough cases yet to draw any firm conclusions. Now certainly there is cause for concern. So, why don't they contact one of the bigger high schools for football in the country, or maybe one from every region, and see if they can obtain permission to talk to and test former players from 30-40 years ago and while they are at, from 20 years ago. That might give you a more substantial sample to study.

Once again.... the only way to diagnose CTE is mailing your loved ones brain to a neuro surgeon. So talking and testing players is fruitless.


Quote
There is currently no reliable way to diagnose CTE. A diagnosis requires evidence of degeneration of brain tissue and deposits of tau and other proteins in the brain that can be seen only upon inspection after death (autopsy).
- The Mayo Clinic
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clutch

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #174 on: July 28, 2017, 07:44:03 pm »

Did you read the article?

I haven't yet, I was listening to a podcast yesterday that was talking about it and was under the impression that this was a test on former NFL players. Glad to hear that they are testing other levels of players as well. It will definitely give a more accurate example of what the impact of football is on the brain.
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twistitup

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #175 on: July 28, 2017, 08:02:19 pm »

Once again.... the only way to diagnose CTE is mailing your loved ones brain to a neuro surgeon. So talking and testing players is fruitless.

 - The Mayo Clinic

testing is not fruitless....diagnosing CTE may not be possible until death but diagnosing brain damage (especially frontal lobe) is just a scan away.

It is possible to find brain trauma without being dead...no reason to wait, unless a player doesn't want to know the truth.
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kodiakisland

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #176 on: July 28, 2017, 08:17:19 pm »

The only objective way to study this is have a large enough study sample to be statistically significant.  Obtain baseline values before starting football and follow up values after.  To only test those with symptoms after the fact is somewhat misleading and of unknown value.  I think this study points to the fact more studies need to take place, but in a more scientific manor.

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HamSammich

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #177 on: July 28, 2017, 08:31:20 pm »

testing is not fruitless....diagnosing CTE may not be possible until death but diagnosing brain damage (especially frontal lobe) is just a scan away.

It is possible to find brain trauma without being dead...no reason to wait, unless a player doesn't want to know the truth.

Fake news. CTE ..... once again is only diagnosed by a brain biopsy.


You guys don't understand variables in science and I don't have the will or patience to teach you. Yeah interview and do a cat scan. Diminished brain function in a football player MUST BE CTE. Geniuses


Brain damage is diagnosable but as a scientist HOW IN ^#%^  DO YOU DETERMINE ITS CTE OR SOMETHIBG LIKE TOO MUCH BOOZE!?! Adding scientific facts to hogville is like adding a cup of water to a person on fire.
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BigoBoys

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #178 on: July 28, 2017, 08:41:12 pm »

Long term effects such as CTE aren't dangerous, and that isn't the point of this thread? 
This is not normal. 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/watch-frightening-video-shows-ex-nfl-player-running-through-a-glass-door/
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twistitup

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #179 on: July 28, 2017, 08:47:52 pm »

Fake news. CTE ..... once again is only diagnosed by a brain biopsy.


You guys don't understand variables in science and I don't have the will or patience to teach you. Yeah interview and do a cat scan. Diminished brain function in a football player MUST BE CTE. Geniuses


Brain damage is diagnosable but as a scientist HOW IN ^#%^  DO YOU DETERMINE ITS CTE OR SOMETHIBG LIKE TOO MUCH BOOZE!?! Adding scientific facts to hogville is like adding a cup of water to a person on fire.

CTE is not the ONLY reason to stop playing football. If you had a brain scan and had frontal lobe damage in college - why would you continue to play? Bran scans are not fruitless...this is about head trauma not JUST CTE
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HamSammich

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #180 on: July 28, 2017, 09:07:41 pm »

CTE is not the ONLY reason to stop playing football. If you had a brain scan and had frontal lobe damage in college - why would you continue to play? Bran scans are not fruitless...this is about head trauma not JUST CTE

Was this thread about CTE or too much alcohol consumption of football players? I'm forgetting already.
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twistitup

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #181 on: July 29, 2017, 05:55:51 am »

Was this thread about CTE or too much alcohol consumption of football players? I'm forgetting already.

This thread is about a new study on CTE....what exactly causes CTE? HEAD TRAUMA!!!

CTE is the end result of getting your f------ brain sloshed around for years - why not get a test to see how your brain is holding up? I did, and I quit playing football due the damage already showing up in scans.

CTE is the END result, you can get ahead of the game with brain scans.
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MuskogeeHogFan

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #182 on: July 29, 2017, 07:55:20 am »

Once again.... the only way to diagnose CTE is mailing your loved ones brain to a neuro surgeon. So talking and testing players is fruitless.

 - The Mayo Clinic

Pardon me, what I should have said is "interview" and "perform scans" on these groupings of former players. It may not be entirely conclusive but it might provide more feedback about brain trauma and it's effects on players rather than just limiting the study to an autopsy.
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BigoBoys

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #183 on: July 29, 2017, 06:43:37 pm »

Pardon me, what I should have said is "interview" and "perform scans" on these groupings of former players. It may not be entirely conclusive but it might provide more feedback about brain trauma and it's effects on players rather than just limiting the study to an autopsy.
You know the story about Mike Webster? 
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MuskogeeHogFan

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #184 on: July 29, 2017, 06:45:03 pm »

You know the story about Mike Webster? 

Of course, but I believe that involved steroid abuse as well.
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BigoBoys

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #185 on: July 29, 2017, 07:34:44 pm »

Of course, but I believe that involved steroid abuse as well.
Are you a scientist?
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MuskogeeHogFan

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #186 on: July 29, 2017, 07:54:15 pm »

Are you a scientist?

Why would you ask such a silly question? I just remember that Webster not only had a lot of concussions/head trauma but he also overused steroids which when abused, can produce a lot of longer term negative effects to the brain/behavior. Why don't you just get to the point that you are wanting to make? 
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BigoBoys

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #187 on: July 29, 2017, 08:24:34 pm »

Why would you ask such a silly question? I just remember that Webster not only had a lot of concussions/head trauma but he also overused steroids which when abused, can produce a lot of longer term negative effects to the brain/behavior. Why don't you just get to the point that you are wanting to make? 
Ok.  You don't know what you are talking about. 
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MuskogeeHogFan

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #188 on: July 29, 2017, 08:45:07 pm »

Ok.  You don't know what you are talking about. 

Yeah, OK. I've only seen it happen in person with guys I played with over the years, but you carry on big guy. I'm not in the mood to debate this with someone tonight, so in advance, you are right in everything you say whether you know what you are talking about or not. Happy? Goodnight.
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SooiecidetillNuttgone

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #189 on: July 30, 2017, 04:04:17 am »

What percent of the entire population had the same results? Where there no bench warmers, punters, kickers or long snappers in the survey? 110 out of 111 is a very fishy percentage and it's being reported by CNN so take it with a grain of salt. What percentage of soccer players or basketballers??

My thoughts exactly.

That type of percentage seems like it's rigged.
Were they worse case scenarios only?
Were other factors also at play?
Etc.

Percentages and stats can be used to influence when they're rigged or slanted.
This feels rigged and slanted.
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redneckfriend

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #190 on: July 30, 2017, 08:16:33 am »

My thoughts exactly.

That type of percentage seems like it's rigged.
Were they worse case scenarios only?
Were other factors also at play?
Etc.

Percentages and stats can be used to influence when they're rigged or slanted.
This feels rigged and slanted.

Have you read through the posts? Of course it is "rigged and slanted"- it was, for the most part, a select group of former players. Brains were donated in large part because the player, or the family, was concerned about symptoms before death. The issue isn't the selection bias- it is the very significant percentage where CTE was found. That is suggestive, not definitive, and more randomized studies with controls need to be done before any firm conclusion can be made. The concern here is that CTE, far from being an occasional hazard, is possibly widespread- and not just from this study- but from the accumulation of evidence.

There are "deniers" posting here and there are people who are giving the results more weight than they can carry. Neither group is able to make a logical argument for their position as hard as they try because neither group has the necessary facts. But those who go too far in the direction of being alarmist have the better of it because the risk of CTE for anyone playing football needs to be addressed soon and defined so that kids can make a truly informed decision. While I don't advocate running around waving my hands and yelling "the sky is falling" putting one's head in the sand doesn't help anyone-especially since it isn't their head that is at risk.
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bennyl08

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #191 on: July 30, 2017, 11:19:10 am »

My thoughts exactly.

That type of percentage seems like it's rigged.
Were they worse case scenarios only?
Were other factors also at play?
Etc.

Percentages and stats can be used to influence when they're rigged or slanted.
This feels rigged and slanted.

How would it be rigged or slanted?

Did they claim that the study showed that the NFL caused the CTE? No.

Did they claim the study was representative of the football playing population as a whole? No.

Were they only able to work with the brains that were given to them? Yes.

Did they acknowledge the limitations of the study and what it does and does not mean in the larger picture? Yes.

Did they use a questionable or wrong technique of determining CTE? I don't have the expertise to say. The actual study gives a pretty thorough methodology so perhaps you could show us why theirs was rigged or slanted.
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Hogsmo Kramer

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #192 on: July 30, 2017, 12:02:48 pm »

I don't really question the studies per se, but I am curious of the zeroing in on American football as opposed to other sports.

What about hockey, boxing, mma, rugby, heck even downhill mountain biking and motocross.

There are a lot of sports that result in head trauma so where are the studies for them. I do realize that the head trauma is likely more prevalent in football but I'd be surprised if there wasn't an effect in these other sports as well.

I guess I'm just saying that football isn't the only sport with inherent possible risks, so why is it the only one receiving so much of the scrutiny while others aren't really even looked at?
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bennyl08

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #193 on: July 30, 2017, 12:13:31 pm »

I don't really question the studies per se, but I am curious of the zeroing in on American football as opposed to other sports.

What about hockey, boxing, mma, rugby, heck even downhill mountain biking and motocross.

There are a lot of sports that result in head trauma so where are the studies for them. I do realize that the head trauma is likely more prevalent in football but I'd be surprised if there wasn't an effect in these other sports as well.

I guess I'm just saying that football isn't the only sport with inherent possible risks, so why is it the only one receiving so much of the scrutiny while others aren't really even looked at?

Seriously?

Spend 30 seconds and google "          CTE" and then get back to us on whether or not american football is the only one receiving scrutiny.
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Hogsmo Kramer

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #194 on: July 30, 2017, 12:23:29 pm »

Seriously?

Spend 30 seconds and google "          CTE" and then get back to us on whether or not american football is the only one receiving scrutiny.

Not to the same degree they're not.

Boxing and MMA yes I can see, but other than that football is most definitely carrying the torch on this as a whole and receiving the most stigma as a result.





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bennyl08

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #195 on: July 30, 2017, 12:36:59 pm »

Not to the same degree they're not.

Boxing and MMA yes I can see, but other than that football is most definitely carrying the torch on this as a whole and receiving the most stigma as a result.

Because football is the only other popular sport in the US besides boxing and mma that has a nearly constant barrage of impacts to the head.

Sure, any sport can have impacts to the head and very damaging ones at that. However, that isn't what CTE is about. It isn't the knockout punch to the head that'll give you CTE, it's the 30-40 light jabs that you take that do the long term damage. Downhill skiing, basketball, baseball, cricket, mountain biking, rock climbing, mountaineering, scuba diving, tennis, racquetball, etc... None of them have that. Soccer is the closest thing in the US but it is way down the list of popular sports, so you aren't going to see much of it on the nightly news. However, if you do follow soccer at all, you most definitely have heard about concerns of CTE and soccer because there are numerous studies linking those two as well. However, unless you seek soccer news, you won't hear as much about it because why would you? News reports on subjects that people care about.

If you go to NZ or South Africa, you're going to be wondering why Rugby is carrying the torch on CTE with sports like american football are arguably even worse? But they get the same answer. Because Rugby is the flag carrying sport in those countries and a new study on a sport where maybe 1% of the population cares about such as american football isn't going to make the nightly news in those countries.
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redneckfriend

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #196 on: July 30, 2017, 12:48:04 pm »

I don't really question the studies per se, but I am curious of the zeroing in on American football as opposed to other sports.

What about hockey, boxing, mma, rugby, heck even downhill mountain biking and motocross.

There are a lot of sports that result in head trauma so where are the studies for them. I do realize that the head trauma is likely more prevalent in football but I'd be surprised if there wasn't an effect in these other sports as well.

I guess I'm just saying that football isn't the only sport with inherent possible risks, so why is it the only one receiving so much of the scrutiny while others aren't really even looked at?
 

The answer should be evident. Football is big business at the college and professional level and thousands of kids play it at the high school and college level. They are encouraged by parents and, especially in the south, by whole communities that get behind the high school team. Boxing has long been known to be an unsafe sport and you don't see large numbers of kids signing up to have their heads punched today. The same is true of MMA. Rugby is a niche sport. Hockey and soccer are almost certainly less likely to result in head trauma (although both carry the potential). Mountain biking is a personal sport and as soon as I had my first concussion doing it I quit- no coach there encouraging me to sacrifice for the team.

The argument that there is risk in everything we do, while paralogical to the point, is true. But some risks are greater than others and the magnitude of some risks are known while the magnitude of others, like football, are not. The concern in football is the large number of young people who engage in it without knowing the true risk and the fact, that because of its popularity with older people, they are encouraged to do it by those in authority which may lead them to believe it is safer than it is. They should have the advantage of full disclosure of risk before engaging and no one who cares about their safety should discourage research and conversation on the topic of risk. The NFL has put itself in a bad position, perhaps an ultimately fatal one, through denial of risk of head injury, colleges, as institutions that purport to seek the "truth", should not follow that example.
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The Kig

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #197 on: July 30, 2017, 01:24:37 pm »

My thoughts exactly.

That type of percentage seems like it's rigged.
Were they worse case scenarios only?
Were other factors also at play?
Etc.

Percentages and stats can be used to influence when they're rigged or slanted.
This feels rigged and slanted.

The point if the study is not to state that 99% of people who play football WILL get CTE.  Rather it is to draw a correlation between long tern impact (in this study ex-NFL players) and CTE.  The percentages are meaningless because, as has been stated repeatedly in this thread, the pool was from people who died where there was some question about brain damage.  You're probably not mailing in grandpa's brain for science if you don't suspect something.   

I really don't get why people keep using the % from the study as an argument to discredit the findings.  Of course the % is higher than the entire population of NFL players...but that  doesn't mean that repeated bashing of your head doesn't put you at significant risk of developing CTE. 
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MuskogeeHogFan

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #198 on: July 30, 2017, 02:12:49 pm »

There is no doubt that a lot of guys who have played football at higher levels for a sustained period of time may have sustained some level of brain trauma. I don't think that God designed our brain to sustain repeated blows to the head and not register some level of damage.

What these studies do miss on is the other factors that might have contributed to the results of the study for those who have had autopsies.

Players from the time that this study group played were known to utilize steroids, which if abused, could alter the ability of the brain to produce rational thought process and in some cases, altered the metabolism of players after the fact. Steroids also helped create a more aggressive personality than the player exhibited prior to usage and more particularly so if over-used. And, players who utilized Steroids sometimes also utilized illegal drugs like "Speed" to help enhance their performance and endurance to make them go faster, longer and be less inhibited to produce impacts that were more aggressive, than less so.

So while the focus of the study is on CTE, I think that it is also relevant and valuable to study the cause and effects of what contributed to CTE and given that a comprehensive study that is inclusive of all of these factors and how they might have affected the ultimate outcome has not been conducted (as far as I know), I'd say that the study is at least, incomplete.
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redneckfriend

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Re: Wow! New CTE study shows...
« Reply #199 on: July 30, 2017, 03:18:49 pm »

There is no doubt that a lot of guys who have played football at higher levels for a sustained period of time may have sustained some level of brain trauma. I don't think that God designed our brain to sustain repeated blows to the head and not register some level of damage.

What these studies do miss on is the other factors that might have contributed to the results of the study for those who have had autopsies.

Players from the time that this study group played were known to utilize steroids, which if abused, could alter the ability of the brain to produce rational thought process and in some cases, altered the metabolism of players after the fact. Steroids also helped create a more aggressive personality than the player exhibited prior to usage and more particularly so if over-used. And, players who utilized Steroids sometimes also utilized illegal drugs like "Speed" to help enhance their performance and endurance to make them go faster, longer and be less inhibited to produce impacts that were more aggressive, than less so.

So while the focus of the study is on CTE, I think that it is also relevant and valuable to study the cause and effects of what contributed to CTE and given that a comprehensive study that is inclusive of all of these factors and how they might have affected the ultimate outcome has not been conducted (as far as I know), I'd say that the study is at least, incomplete.

You are conflating two things here- 1) neuropathological findings and 2) clinical symptoms.

The pathology is diagnostic of CTE (ptau perivascular lesions) so all of the players the study says had some degree of CTE did in fact have it. ptau lesions are an agreed upon convention for the diagnosis of the disease. Not all were severe however and a single ptau lesion is diagnostic. The symptoms, while in constellation are characteristic of CTE, are not diagnostic so it is possible that other factors were involved. What was worrisome is that in this group of players who exhibited symptoms so many had CTE. It is possible that there were unknown contributing causes to this finding but that is speculative at this point.

As far as the years of football played this is a quote from the discussion section of the study: 

"The severity of CTE pathology was distributed across the highest level of play, with all former high school players having mild pathology and the majority of former college, semiprofessional, and professional players having severe pathology. Behavior, mood, and cognitive symptoms were common among those with mild and severe CTE pathology and signs of dementia were common among those with severe CTE pathology."

If there aren't other factors discovered to explain symptoms then it appears that even high school players with mild disease may exhibit clinical CTE. That is another reason for more and better studies -to develop statistical correlation (or non-correlation) between symptoms and the presence of ptau lesions and a statistically meaningful association of symptoms with level of severity.
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