Hogville Info
• 9,495,296 Posts
• 388,945 Topics
• 22,018 Hogvillians
THE RULES (Read 'em!)
Quick Links
Pick'Ems:Football      Basketball      Baseball
Sister Sites:Gridiron HistoryFearless Friday
Listen NOW:Game ON 103.3 
  
Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: Kirk Herbstreit says the CFP is redefining what fans see as a successful season  (Read 4215 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

MuskogeeHogFan

  • Global Moderator
  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +9305/-9245
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 40,032
  • Nadine Coyle shakin it for the Hogs!!!!

Herbstreit feels that fans are focused too much on making the play offs and that if a team doesn't make it, they aren't considered to be successful. He used to think that we would eventually go to an 8 team play-off. Now he thinks that would be a bad idea.

"I was a guy that thought we’d eventually go to eight,” Herbstreit said on SiriusXM College Sports Nation. “This is the first time I really felt that fans, even maybe players, that there was a focus for 15 weeks for the four.… Then the teams are decided, and it was like fanbases getting frustrated with a 12-1 season or an 11-2 season, ‘Ugh, going to the Rose Bowl, the Fiesta Bowl.’ It’s like, what have we created where fans are so focused on the four, that if their team still has a great year and goes to a Jan. 1, they’re left frustrated?

You can see the rest of his comments here:

http://coachingsearch.com/article?a=News-Notes--Quotes--Feb-23
Logged

HOGINTENNESSEE

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +1148/-1131
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 8,388
  • Ryan Mallett: "I don't get nervous"

Hasn't changed it for me.
Logged

Sponsored Ad



Hogville encourages you to do business with the following...

MultipleScoreGasms

  • Varsity
  • ****
  • Karma: +48/-177
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 399
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net

Me either, and I would still like to see an 8 team playoff.
Logged

MuskogeeHogFan

  • Global Moderator
  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +9305/-9245
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 40,032
  • Nadine Coyle shakin it for the Hogs!!!!

My question is, wouldn't it (fan expectations, disappointment, etc) be the same regardless of which system was used to select bowl teams that were competing for a NC? Were fans any less disappointed under the BCS system?
Logged

SooiecidetillNuttgone

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +868/-1589
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 8,326
  • Melyssa Forde. Simply One of the Greatest.

This is why I wasn't too keen on a playoff system to begin with.

The college b-ball regular season is basically irrelevant beyond getting into ''The Dance''.

With fewer games, I don't see true irrelevancy happening to the football season, but I have wondered what effect it would have.

Lastly, I'm not comfortable with a playoff determining a winner.
The effects of a month off, a bad game, a bad seeding, a bad matchup, etc eradicates the team that may truly be the best team that year.

You can't always convince me the better team always wins.
Ever heard of upsets, the saying, ''Any given Saturday/Sunday, etc?
Logged

Mike_e

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +840/-746
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 4,554
  • May the woo be with you

Changed if for the rest of college football maybe, same ole same ole for the SEC.
Logged

SemperHawg

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +311/-205
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 3,099

This is why I wasn't too keen on a playoff system to begin with.

The college b-ball regular season is basically irrelevant beyond getting into ''The Dance''.

With fewer games, I don't see true irrelevancy happening to the football season, but I have wondered what effect it would have.

Lastly, I'm not comfortable with a playoff determining a winner.
The effects of a month off, a bad game, a bad seeding, a bad matchup, etc eradicates the team that may truly be the best team that year.

You can't always convince me the better team always wins.
Ever heard of upsets, the saying, ''Any given Saturday/Sunday, etc?
To your point, the New York Giants have a couple of Super Bowl rings from years where they weren't the best team in the league and just got hot and had some good things happen at the right time.

Logged

SooiecidetillNuttgone

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +868/-1589
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 8,326
  • Melyssa Forde. Simply One of the Greatest.

To your point, the New York Giants have a couple of Super Bowl rings from years where they weren't the best team in the league and just got hot and had some good things happen at the right time.



Absolutely true.
Remember the Falcons upsetting the Vikings to go to the Super Bowl.
Horrible upset.  Bad corresponding Super Bowl.
Logged

BRHogfan

  • Senior
  • *****
  • Karma: +58/-102
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,295
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net

Absolutely true.
Remember the Falcons upsetting the Vikings to go to the Super Bowl.
Horrible upset.  Bad corresponding Super Bowl.

The Falcons were 14-2 WTH, it's not like they were 8-8, and they lost to the defending Super Bowl Champions and John Elways.  Geez.
Logged

DeltaBoy

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +11976/-13012
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 68,079
  • I'm Un-Reconstructed. Sic semper tyrannis

I see what Herb is talking about and I agree many college fans only care if they get in the final four.
Logged

Hogs run wild

  • Senior
  • *****
  • Karma: +74/-59
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 856

So it's a successful season if you don't win the national championship, but win the cotton? No, the goal each year is to win the championship. It hasn't changed. The rules may have changed, but the goal remains the same. What I like now, is that the overlooked team has a shot.
Logged

rhames

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +568/-985
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 6,035

So it's a successful season if you don't win the national championship, but win the cotton? No, the goal each year is to win the championship. It hasn't changed. The rules may have changed, but the goal remains the same. What I like now, is that the overlooked team has a shot.


I disagree. "Successful season " is relative to the team you are analyzing.


There are 120 something division one teams. Are you saying that only one, less than one percent, has a successful season?


Do agree with the overlooked team has a shot and that's why I love it.
Logged

bigdaddyhawg

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +1741/-2971
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13,394
  • Bringing Refinement To Hogville Since '09

Fans are nothing more than typical people these days: they want it all and they want it now!!

The old saying "beauty is in the eyes of the beholder" is kind of the deal for fans.  Bama fans are going to be disappointed every year they DON'T win a NC, maybe OSU fans, too.

For most fans, they want their team to play well and win some big games.  Hog fans bitch too much about our losses, but that's probably most fans.  But Hog fans aren't worried about the CFP I don't think, nor do most fans think about that much.

And the CFP hasn't diminished the season in the least.  IMO it's made it even stronger.  Last fall OM fans, and LSU fans (for a while), and UF fans (for a while) all had visions of their teams being in the playoff, and I think it made their defeats along the way even more crushing to those fans.
Logged

code red

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +584/-2147
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,978
  • You can't handle the truth!!!!!!

The 4 team playoff makes every game count.  I for one think this is the way to go....with 8 it will come down to a popularity contest and a grueling season for many teams.
Logged

hoghiker

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +455/-448
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,548

One nice thing about being a Hog fan is that we can get pretty stoked about 8-9 wins. 10 wins very nice. If we get in the playoffs, I'll be super happy but not that disappointed if we don't.
.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 11:02:49 am by hoghiker »
Logged

rhames

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +568/-985
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 6,035

The 4 team playoff makes every game count.  I for one think this is the way to go....with 8 it will come down to a popularity contest and a grueling season for many teams.


Not really if the power 5 Champs have auto bids and then 3 at large. Not in my options anyway.
Logged

bigdaddyhawg

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +1741/-2971
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13,394
  • Bringing Refinement To Hogville Since '09


Not really if the power 5 Champs have auto bids and then 3 at large. Not in my options anyway.

When one loss likely knocks you out of the playoff discussion (for most teams) every game counts.

And for those handful of teams that can lose one game and still get in, all those games still count, because they don't want to lose the second, AND because they want the best seed they can get.

Conference championships still have tremendous value to fans, and as long as that's the case every game will count.
Logged

wholehog92

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +677/-834
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 6,618
  • refined yet primal

The fans had the same issue under the BCS, this has had no impact at all on that.  If anything it's helped double the number of happy fans from 2 teams to 4.

I like it at 4 because you can have 1 loss and still make it.  You have to have to have an elite season to make the cut.  Historically, even in the BCS era and on back, I can't find a season where the team finishing 5th in the rankings deserved a shot at the title.

Every game very much matters under this system.  Even if your team is out of the running, your game can affect who gets in.  IE AR beating Ol Miss last year helped Bama immensely.  Our game mattered in the national championship and we both finished middle of the pack in our conference.

It's the off season and Herb is trying to say something everyone will disagree with to create discussion.
Logged

RyeHogFan

  • Senior
  • *****
  • Karma: +250/-163
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 1,286
  • Yep....

Fans are nothing more than typical people these days: they want it all and they want it now!!

Soooo, they're Queen fans?

Logged

code red

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +584/-2147
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,978
  • You can't handle the truth!!!!!!


Not really if the power 5 Champs have auto bids and then 3 at large. Not in my options anyway.
So your going to ask teams to play up to 16 games?
Logged

rhames

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +568/-985
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 6,035

So your going to ask teams to play up to 16 games?


As opposed to 15?
Logged

rhames

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +568/-985
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 6,035

When one loss likely knocks you out of the playoff discussion (for most teams) every game counts.

And for those handful of teams that can lose one game and still get in, all those games still count, because they don't want to lose the second, AND because they want the best seed they can get.

Conference championships still have tremendous value to fans, and as long as that's the case every game will count.


The not really wasn't referencing making games count but disagreeing with 8 team play off.
Logged

code red

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +584/-2147
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,978
  • You can't handle the truth!!!!!!

I think 4 is fine 6 max.....top seeds get a bye.  The logistics IMHO are overwhelming in a 8 team playoff.  Tickets....bowls.....fan expense.  Plus....NFL is on Sunday....lets not move it to Saturdays as well.  If you lose your first 2 games...you shouldn't be in the playoff.
Logged

rhames

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +568/-985
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 6,035

I think 4 is fine 6 max.....top seeds get a bye.  The logistics IMHO are overwhelming in a 8 team playoff.  Tickets....bowls.....fan expense.  Plus....NFL is on Sunday....lets not move it to Saturdays as well.  If you lose your first 2 games...you shouldn't be in the playoff.


I think 4 is fine. Just do not think it would be a popularity contest or even have to be filled with 2 loss teams. Some years yes. This year it wouldn't have been outside of Stanford.
Logged

code red

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +584/-2147
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,978
  • You can't handle the truth!!!!!!

Just my opinion.
Logged

rhames

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +568/-985
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 6,035

And nothing wrong at all with it sir!
Logged

Wildhog

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +3421/-8145
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 41,060

I just want to go to a decent bowl game.
Logged

IronHog

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +2366/-4647
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 29,121
  • AIMED AT YOU!

The problem is 5 conferences for 4 slots.


Get rid of the big 12 and let the conference championship games be the first round of the playoffs.
Logged

Vantage 8 dude

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +979/-2285
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 11,032
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net

The problem is 5 conferences for 4 slots.


Get rid of the big 12 and let the conference championship games be the first round of the playoffs.
Well think about the conference championship games and in reality they are the first round. Lose there and you're almost guaranteed NOT to be in the hunt for the NCG. While winning obviously doesn't absolutely assure you a slot in the "big dance", IMO it's better for the most part than what we've traditionally had.
Logged

code red

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +584/-2147
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,978
  • You can't handle the truth!!!!!!

If you go to 8 your more than likely going to need to get rid of the championship games.  But...I agree there is no need for 8 with the conference championship games.  Those venues are as good as a bowl games.  If you lose....your out.
Logged

TNRazorbacker

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +299/-451
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 3,311

Nonsense. The more teams vying for a playoff spot the more excitement there is across the board.  To me his argument just lends weight to more playoff teams. Id be more more excited about my 9 win team getting into the playoffs than my 11 win team doing a one and done in the Cotton Bowl.
Logged

Atlhogfan1

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +1522/-2318
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 17,507
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net

This is an Ohio State type fan base viewpoint.  They can see it as a failure.  Baylor can see it as a disappointment with their injury hampered season.  OM missed a real opportunity.  Most of the rest of us weren't in serious contention. 


4 playoff teams are more than enough. 
Logged

PorkSoda

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +3151/-3982
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 42,179
  • O_o
    • It's a Jeep thing...

a successful season is meeting the teams potential.

very few teams have the potential to make the playoffs.
Logged

PorkSoda

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +3151/-3982
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 42,179
  • O_o
    • It's a Jeep thing...

This is an Ohio State type fan base viewpoint.  They can see it as a failure.  Baylor can see it as a disappointment with their injury hampered season.  OM missed a real opportunity.  Most of the rest of us weren't in serious contention. 


4 playoff teams are more than enough. 
no doubt.  the only reason it is 4 in the first place is the off chance an undefeated P5 team is at #3.
Logged

RollHogTide

  • Senior
  • *****
  • Karma: +339/-296
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,070

I completely agree with Kirk Herbstreit as a fan, but I also believe that many teams feel the same way.  Times have changed not only for the fans, but the players.  IMO - I believe that many players in bowl games are more concerned with injury than winning.  In addition to the fear of injury, I also believe there is a small percentage of players that could care less about playing in a non-playoff bowl. 
Logged

hogsanity

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +6196/-11735
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 44,170
  • Is there a problem here?

The 4 team playoff makes every game count.  I for one think this is the way to go....with 8 it will come down to a popularity contest and a grueling season for many teams.

Actually, it makes very few games count. Once your team is out of playoff contention, none of their games really count.
Logged

Hawghiggs

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +187/-523
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 2,708

 I hate the playoffs. The only thing wrong with the BCS system was that it didn't incorporate more bowls. Imagine what it would have been like if the Cotton and Peach bowls had been part of the rotation.
Logged

Hawghiggs

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +187/-523
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 2,708

Actually, it makes very few games count. Once your team is out of playoff contention, none of their games really count.
Absolutely. Now only one team can have a successful season.
Logged

hogsanity

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +6196/-11735
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 44,170
  • Is there a problem here?

I hate the playoffs. The only thing wrong with the BCS system was that it didn't incorporate more bowls. Imagine what it would have been like if the Cotton and Peach bowls had been part of the rotation.

The problem with with the playoff is that there is no way to truly earn your way in. Yes, you pretty much can't have more than 1 loss, but if say 6-8 teams all have 1 loss, people still pick the playoff teams.

The beauty of the nfl playoffs is that there is a set criteria to win your way in. Yes, the division format does sometimes allow pretty bad teams to get in and host a home game, but the way to get in is defined for each team before the season starts. That is not how the college playoff is. All we really have is the bcs except the top 4 teams actually play games against each other then we get the nc game.
Logged

hawganatic

  • Senior
  • *****
  • Karma: +64/-181
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,185
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net


Lastly, I'm not comfortable with a playoff determining a winner.
The effects of a month off, a bad game, a bad seeding, a bad matchup, etc eradicates the team that may truly be the best team that year.

You can't always convince me the better team always wins.
Ever heard of upsets, the saying, ''Any given Saturday/Sunday, etc?

I'm not sure what you are going for here.  Are you advocating going back to having the polls choose who the champ is? 

Are you wanting a team awarded the championship even if they are upset in the NC game?
Logged

HiggiePiggy

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +833/-1712
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 11,569
  • Hope...

I love the playoff system. Fans are still pretty damn happy when teams get to big bowl games. Heck ones that are upset they didn't get into the playoff are teams like Ohio state when they were expecting to get back with what they had returning there and didn't.  I am pretty sure majority of fans were pretty happy with the results of their team.  Heck we have fans for Arkansas that are happy with the results this year.  I'm ok with it, but was expecting a 9 win season like many others were. 

Playoffs isn't hurting anything.  What it needs is more teams in it.   

I would love to see an actual poll of the college football teams and how happy were they with the results of their team and if they were happy they made it to a bowl game.

 I'm sure a lot of fans from Ohio state wouldn't be too happy, but I bet Michigan fans were pretty damn excited to win a bowl game against Florida.  Kirk Herbstreit is in the minority I believe and probably didn't actually do much research to come up with his decision to not like the playoffs. 
Logged

Mike_e

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +840/-746
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 4,554
  • May the woo be with you

Kirk is the guy that would be most likely to be fired in a corporate downsizing.
Logged

12247

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +1001/-2156
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,298

I wanted an 8 team playoff but have reconsidered and don't see it as must have now.  I wouldn't mind the 5 through 8 rated teams playing their playoff to determine their own spot selection for 5 through 8.  The 5 through 8 teams are still really good teams and great football could be had there.

There is maybe 4 or more teams that will say they could have defended the 3 spot in this past years CFP better than Mich St. and they likely are correct.  So its still a crap shoot on who gets in to some point.  Wouldn't mind seeing places 9 through 12 playing to be certain of the complete top 10.  Finishing in the top 10 for the year is quite an honor.  I do not believe any 2 loss team should be allowed in the top 4.   I know LSU won it all with 2 losses once.
Logged

PorkSoda

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +3151/-3982
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 42,179
  • O_o
    • It's a Jeep thing...

The problem with with the playoff is that there is no way to truly earn your way in. Yes, you pretty much can't have more than 1 loss, but if say 6-8 teams all have 1 loss, people still pick the playoff teams.

The beauty of the nfl playoffs is that there is a set criteria to win your way in. Yes, the division format does sometimes allow pretty bad teams to get in and host a home game, but the way to get in is defined for each team before the season starts. That is not how the college playoff is. All we really have is the bcs except the top 4 teams actually play games against each other then we get the nc game.
maybe we should have a 64 team national playoff for High schools as well.

the reality is, like high school, the NCAA is just a stepping stone to the NFL.  we don't actually need to name a national champion.  but its fun for the fans. 
Logged

MuskogeeHogFan

  • Global Moderator
  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +9305/-9245
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 40,032
  • Nadine Coyle shakin it for the Hogs!!!!

I wanted an 8 team playoff but have reconsidered and don't see it as must have now.  I wouldn't mind the 5 through 8 rated teams playing their playoff to determine their own spot selection for 5 through 8.  The 5 through 8 teams are still really good teams and great football could be had there.

There is maybe 4 or more teams that will say they could have defended the 3 spot in this past years CFP better than Mich St. and they likely are correct.  So its still a crap shoot on who gets in to some point.  Wouldn't mind seeing places 9 through 12 playing to be certain of the complete top 10.  Finishing in the top 10 for the year is quite an honor.  I do not believe any 2 loss team should be allowed in the top 4.   I know LSU won it all with 2 losses once.

I disagree with Herb, I think there needs to be 8 teams. 16 is too many, 4 is too few.
Logged

HiggiePiggy

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +833/-1712
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 11,569
  • Hope...

maybe we should have a 64 team national playoff for High schools as well.

the reality is, like high school, the NCAA is just a stepping stone to the NFL.  we don't actually need to name a national champion.  but its fun for the fans. 

Considering how much money football brings in there is a huge reason for a national champion.
Logged

bigpigpimpin

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +511/-2164
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4,031

We don't even know what 12-1 is.
Logged

LRAFBHog

  • Guest

My question is, wouldn't it (fan expectations, disappointment, etc) be the same regardless of which system was used to select bowl teams that were competing for a NC? Were fans any less disappointed under the BCS system?

We, Hog fan base, have been disappointed since 1964.  If we, like Alabama, had been a team in the CFP for the past two years , and won no title, there would be disappointment wide, wide spread.  This means, soeaks:

Get to work and get enough athletes to compete in the SEC.  Recruiting and HIGH ranking recruiting classes.  That is the road to CFP championship(s).  THE ONLY ROAD!!
Logged

Vantage 8 dude

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +979/-2285
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 11,032
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net

Actually, it makes very few games count. Once your team is out of playoff contention, none of their games really count.
Well your team might be officially eliminated but that certainly doesn't mean you can't do a major "number" on someone still contending. I give you exhibit one: the 2015 Ole Miss/Arkansas game winner. In that respect all games potentially count.
Logged

Vantage 8 dude

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +979/-2285
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 11,032
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net

Absolutely. Now only one team can have a successful season.
Again, depends on what you mean by successful. Yeah, yeah I realize the ultimate goal of every team is to try to win the NC each year. However, let me present a "for instance". Say the Hogs were to win an SECC, go into the playoffs, win and move on to the NC game but come up short. Do you honestly believe that most of our fans would consider the season a total failure? Of course we'd naturally be disappointed; however, to consider the whole year to be a total "washout" and unsuccessful is utterly ridiculous.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
 

KARK
KWNA
Fox 16 Arkansas