Need to clear up a misconception about Segrest and special teams

[The Recruiting Guy]

Defensive line coach Rory Segrest coaches the snappers, kickers, punters and holder on special teams. That's all.

O-line coach is in charge of protection.

[younghog]

O-line coach is in charge of protection.

Very interesting..

So Pitman slipped in this area?

[Großer Kriegschwein]

Yeah his title is Specialists. Not Special Teams. Could always bring Slappy back....

J/K


Did Bostad coach field goal protections at Wisconsin?

[texas tush hog]

Yeah his title is Specialists. Not Special Teams. Could always bring Slappy back....

J/K


Did Bostad coach field goal protections at Wisconsin?

Hire him yesterday.

[oldbear]

I will be glad to offer my services. I would work cheap.

Expecting a call......

[MuskogeeHogFan]

Defensive line coach Rory Segrest coaches the snappers, kickers, punters and holder on special teams. That's all.

O-line coach is in charge of protection.

That's a little eye opening. As I've said before, blocking for FG's/XP's is more a matter of quality practice and repetition than rocket science. But you have to go "live" and present the FG/XP team with various situations that include those where the Line is overloaded at times in varying areas to create difficult situations that they have to learn to overcome. Not enough "live" practice in this as opposed to "walk-throughs"? I don't know, but something is obviously amiss.

[Killean]

Pittman may have been a hell of a recruiter.. but our O Line didn't improve as much as we expected and our run blocking was downright suspect at times.

[SquidBilly]

So why not use the regular olinemen for special teams?  Other than snapper the rest of the guys could do their same jobs.  Then put TEs on both ends of the lines to complete the protection.

[oldbear]

Seriously with the wealth of talent we have at Tight end and the size of the players at that position, there is no good reason not to have the snapper, four o linemen, four tight ends, holder and kicker. The snapper generally doesn't do much to protect except get in the way. I was a snapper in college for four years. We never had a punt or kick blocked. It isn't that hard. It requires effort and not allowing anyone to come through the gap directly to your inside.

[elksnort]

Was Hedlund kicking the longer kicks too low or was the blocking faulty in each one of the blocked kicks?

Hedlund CAN make the long kicks. He has shown it.

[Großer Kriegschwein]

Was Hedlund kicking the longer kicks too low or was the blocking faulty in each one of the blocked kicks?

Hedlund CAN make the long kicks. He has shown it.

He can't when there is a defender 3 feet in front of him. Maybe he can curve his kicks like that Angelina Jolie movie, but I doubt it. Protection is the problem it seems.

I don't like to bring him up, but BP said having JLS around telling him he needed to practice his special teams helped a lot.

[TexHog188]

When the rusher is standing in front of the ball and it hits him in the chest, it aint the kicker.

[The Recruiting Guy]

Pittman may have been a hell of a recruiter.. but our O Line didn't improve as much as we expected and our run blocking was downright suspect at times.

I would disagree. The O-line play was very good.

The protection on FGs was good last year. Not so this year.  Sometimes your personnel don't do as they're coached to do.  It happens.

Remember some were ready to get rid of Michael Smith because some they didn't think the receivers played well. Different year and better play because some of the WRs are a year older and the addition of D Reed.

[Piggfoot]

The blockers on the FG and XP I believe are 2's and 3's it may be Beliema's way of rewarding these guys for hard work. Don't know though. It hasn't been the same breakdown every time. But fundamentals have to be taught. Looks to me like some improvement in this area is needed.  Thanks to Mike I for clarification.

[ricepig]

Defensive line coach Rory Segrest coaches the snappers, kickers, punters and holder on special teams. That's all.

O-line coach is in charge of protection.

I'm surprised more didn't realize this. Singleton has the title of Special Teams Coordinator, but it may be for money only. I know Bret has said they divide it up and he coaches punt, maybe punt return??

[ricepig]

The blockers on the FG and XP I believe are 2's and 3's it may be Beliema's way of rewarding these guys for hard work. Don't know though. It hasn't been the same breakdown every time. But fundamentals have to be taught. Looks to me like some improvement in this area is needed.  Thanks to Mike I for clarification.

No, we had Tretola, Ragnow, Kirkland, and Danenhauer on the FG unit the other day. Danenhauer was blown straight up by his guy, much like Voelzke was against Miss. St.

[Dropkick]

Seriously with the wealth of talent we have at Tight end and the size of the players at that position, there is no good reason not to have the snapper, four o linemen, three tight ends, holder and kicker. The snapper generally doesn't do much to protect except get in the way. I was a snapper in college for four years. We never had a punt or kick blocked. It isn't that hard. It requires effort and not allowing anyone to come inside of you.

You may want to reword that last sentence...............

[Bebop]

Pittman may have been a hell of a recruiter.. but our O Line didn't improve as much as we expected and our run blocking was downright suspect at times.

I agree.

[Woopig69]

You may want to reword that last sentence...............

+1

[Jek Tono Porkins]

He can't when there is a defender 3 feet in front of him. Maybe he can curve his kicks like that Angelina Jolie movie, but I doubt it. Protection is the problem it seems.

I don't like to bring him up, but BP said having JLS around telling him he needed to practice his special teams helped a lot.

This post prompted me to do a little research but I think you are 100% correct about having a special teams coach. Our special teams were dominant during that time. JLS' only job was special teams coordinator. That's actually pretty unique.

In 2015, the only SEC team that had a coach solely dedicated to special teams was South Carolina.
A&M, Bama, Auburn, Tennessee, Florida, and Georgia combined the position with the tight ends coach.
LSU had a Defensive assistant/special teams coach.
Miss State and Vanderbilt combined the position with the running backs coach
Ole Miss and Kentucky combined the position with the safeties coach.
Mizzou didn't list one so I assume Pinkel was coaching special teams.

Maybe there's something to be said for having a special teams coordinator be its own position. I think it's important enough to where one is warranted. It doesn't even have to be a genius. Surely Long can find a couple hundred thousand to promote a grad assistant or something. If you've got someone analyzing punt formations, kick formations, etc. and isn't distracted with another position group, it would probably be very beneficial. Is there a cap as to how many assistant coaches a team can have on staff?

[bphi11ips]

Does Rory Segrest know anything about the mechanics of placekicking, punting and kicking off?  I'm not suggesting that if he doesn't he's not like most other FBS assistants given the special teams job.  On the other hand, kicking is all about mechanics and repetition.  I'm asking a question here, not being critical.   If the team has no coach who has never kicked at the college level, do the players coach each other?  Do they rely on outside expert instruction?  Can a team pay a kicking coach on an hourly basis under the rules to work with its kickers?

This doesn't answer the protection issue, but it's an interesting question that has never occurred to me.  Same question for QB's.  Enos appears to be a very good QB coach, but he was an All-Conference B1G QB.  Chaney was a defensive lineman.  Brandon Allen footed his own bill for Weinke.  Is there a way to pay for specialized position coaching on an independent contractor basis?

[ricepig]

This post prompted me to do a little research but I think you are 100% correct about having a special teams coach. Our special teams were dominant during that time. JLS' only job was special teams coordinator. That's actually pretty unique.

In 2015, the only SEC team that had a coach solely dedicated to special teams was South Carolina.
A&M, Bama, Auburn, Tennessee, Florida, and Georgia combined the position with the tight ends coach.
LSU had a Defensive assistant/special teams coach.
Miss State and Vanderbilt combined the position with the running backs coach
Ole Miss and Kentucky combined the position with the safeties coach.
Mizzou didn't list one so I assume Pinkel was coaching special teams.

Maybe there's something to be said for having a special teams coordinator be its own position. I think it's important enough to where one is warranted. It doesn't even have to be a genius. Surely Long can find a couple hundred thousand to promote a grad assistant or something. If you've got someone analyzing punt formations, kick formations, etc. and isn't distracted with another position group, it would probably be very beneficial. Is there a cap as to how many assistant coaches a team can have on staff?

Only 9 assistants on staff.

[Boardon Hamsay]

You may want to reword that last sentence...............

[The Hogfather]

Screw you, Brokecoach Pittman!!

[reddogjcss]

How ever it's set up its not working and needs to be fixed, some how, some way.

[Pork Twain]

Defensive line coach Rory Segrest coaches the snappers, kickers, punters and holder on special teams. That's all.

O-line coach is in charge of protection.

Seems like you would want the OL coach in charge of that, it is kinda his AOR.

[hawgwash]

Seriously with the wealth of talent we have at Tight end and the size of the players at that position, there is no good reason not to have the snapper, four o linemen, three tight ends, holder and kicker. The snapper generally doesn't do much to protect except get in the way. I was a snapper in college for four years. We never had a punt or kick blocked. It isn't that hard. It requires effort and not allowing anyone to come inside of you.

Sorry to be "that guy", but actually there's an excellent reason to not go with this personnel package.

[Jek Tono Porkins]

Only 9 assistants on staff.

Gotcha. In 2010 Tim Horton was coaching running backs and tight ends. In 2011 the tight end coach was also a grad assistant. Never mind then. It was a good thought. However, South Carolina appeared to have 10 assistant coaches on staff before Spurrier resigned: http://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/staffs/south-carolina-personnel/2015-south-carolina-coaching-staff/

Edit: Found a link from when Spurrier hired Jon Hoke and apparently Grady Brown was, as Spurrier put it:

"I was able to keep all of our guys and Coach Grady Brown, his title will be quality control of the defense and he'll be like an assistant defensive coach but he'll be over there working with our defensive staff. The NCAA has allowed for those type of players and we may add another quality control guy in the near future."

http://www.gamecocksonline.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/020915aaa.html

How does that work?

[ricepig]

Sorry to be "that guy", but actually there's an excellent reason to not go with this personnel package.

You don't think 10 guys is enough?

[Großer Kriegschwein]

Only 9 assistants on staff.

The only way Bobby had room was to coach QBs himself or have a GA coach TEs. Can't really remember.

[hawgwash]

You don't think 10 guys is enough?

I say if the rules allow 11, let's take full advantage!

[Großer Kriegschwein]

I say if the rules allow 11, let's take full advantage!

Nah, just use four. It will lull the defensive unit into a false sense of security or they would never think we're about to snap the ball.

[hawgwash]

Nah, just use four. It will lull the defensive unit into a false sense of security or they would never think we're about to snap the ball.

May as well try it.  Going with 11 hasn't been working out for us.

[ricepig]

May as well try it.  Going with 11 hasn't been working out for us.

Swinging gate field goal attempt, it'll fool them.

[Mike Irwin]

Pittman may have been a hell of a recruiter.. but our O Line didn't improve as much as we expected and our run blocking was downright suspect at times.

Here we go again. A coach left so he didn't do his job.

As we've seen in the three years that Bielema has been at Arkansas, rushing numbers are largely dictated by the defensive game plan of the opponent.

For instance, Arkansas rushed for 299 yds against LSU which clearly schemed to stop the passing game after BA had thrown for 442 yds and six TD passes the week before against Ole Miss. The next week Mississippi State loaded the box to stop the run. Arkansas' rushing numbers dropped 73 yds but BA threw for 406 yds and a school record seven TD passes.

The fact is, inspite of a much improved passing game and an OC who took advantage of it, Arkansas still averaged 188 yds per game rushing in SEC play compared to 153 in 2014 when the passing game wasn't nearly as effective.

This team finished 4th in the league in rushing, third in passing and second in total offense.

You don't do that when the run blocking is downright suspect.

[Oklahawg]

Something was suspect vs Tech and Toledo.

There are very few "kickers" who are coaches. Most kicking coaches are outside guys like Chris Sailing (? guy that came to UA last summer and worked out camp) whose kicking school provided us Blake Johnson.

There is a risk with kickers/punters - they work on their own quite a bit and are prone to "dead leg" from too many kicks. They can also develop glitches that are largely undetectable in the ST part of practices.

It is silly to suggest that CBB "ignores" ST, unless someone has specific evidence that there was no ST work at a full practice during the season (for example, a player saying, "yeah, we don't do ST work"). What could be problematic is (1) snapper is often a walk-on who only deep snaps; (2) holder is often a walk-on who only holds; (3) how "hard" those ST periods are in practice (do you have corners diving for blocks?); and, (4) how consistent is the ST philosophy across the myriad of coaches who work it.

Seems like we have a habit (multiple coaches, too) of a 5-10 x 205 deep snapper who can be blown up by 300-pounds DTs.

[wachhog]

Very interesting..

So Pitman slipped in this area?

He apparently didn't do any recruiting of O linemen to Arkansas this past season. What makes you think he did any coaching?

[elksnort]

Deep snappers are almost always tweezers in size.

[KlubhouseKonnected]

It isn't that hard. It requires effort and not allowing anyone to come inside of you.

Why can't they just conceive that this kind of protection will be a complete prophylactic measure against penetration and allow our kicker to "just delivery Baby!!" ?

[bphi11ips]

Something was suspect vs Tech and Toledo.

There are very few "kickers" who are coaches. Most kicking coaches are outside guys like Chris Sailing (? guy that came to UA last summer and worked out camp) whose kicking school provided us Blake Johnson.

There is a risk with kickers/punters - they work on their own quite a bit and are prone to "dead leg" from too many kicks. They can also develop glitches that are largely undetectable in the ST part of practices.

It is silly to suggest that CBB "ignores" ST, unless someone has specific evidence that there was no ST work at a full practice during the season (for example, a player saying, "yeah, we don't do ST work"). What could be problematic is (1) snapper is often a walk-on who only deep snaps; (2) holder is often a walk-on who only holds; (3) how "hard" those ST periods are in practice (do you have corners diving for blocks?); and, (4) how consistent is the ST philosophy across the myriad of coaches who work it.

Seems like we have a habit (multiple coaches, too) of a 5-10 x 205 deep snapper who can be blown up by 300-pounds DTs.

I know that Jamie Kohl was at the kicking camp last June.  He and Sailer are competitors.  Kohl runs the biggest camp nationally out of Wisconsin.  Hedlund came from Kohl's.  Most kickers pick one or the other and stick with them.  Either organization offers top-notch instruction.  It's expensive and requires commitment from the athlete.  But good kicking coaches are very effective when they have talent and commitment to work with.  It would make all thecsense in the world to fly a top Kohl's or Sailer guy in once a week for a day to keep the kickers tuned up.  My guess is we can't do that under the rules, because price should not be an object.

[Jek Tono Porkins]

Something was suspect vs Tech and Toledo.

There are very few "kickers" who are coaches. Most kicking coaches are outside guys like Chris Sailing (? guy that came to UA last summer and worked out camp) whose kicking school provided us Blake Johnson.

There is a risk with kickers/punters - they work on their own quite a bit and are prone to "dead leg" from too many kicks. They can also develop glitches that are largely undetectable in the ST part of practices.

It is silly to suggest that CBB "ignores" ST, unless someone has specific evidence that there was no ST work at a full practice during the season (for example, a player saying, "yeah, we don't do ST work"). What could be problematic is (1) snapper is often a walk-on who only deep snaps; (2) holder is often a walk-on who only holds; (3) how "hard" those ST periods are in practice (do you have corners diving for blocks?); and, (4) how consistent is the ST philosophy across the myriad of coaches who work it.

Seems like we have a habit (multiple coaches, too) of a 5-10 x 205 deep snapper who can be blown up by 300-pounds DTs.

I don't think it's the snapper's fault. I think it's the refs fault for not applying the rule. The rule is that you can't make contact with the deep snapper on a field goal until 1 second after the snap. The Miss. State block was the most egregious...there were guys piling on top of the snapper almost immediately after he snapped the ball. 1 full second is a lot longer than most people think and I don't think the refs are enforcing that rule. I mean our field goal unit obviously needs work but I don't think it's the snapper's fault.

[oldbear]

Some of us might have had a really bad day posting. Geez you guys gave me a good laugh to end the day. Haha. Gotta love Hogville. I deserved the old saying to be change to they aren't laughing with you but they are laughing at you.

[PolishPigPower]

Was Hedlund kicking the longer kicks too low or was the blocking faulty in each one of the blocked kicks?

Hedlund CAN make the long kicks. He has shown it.

I watched the replay of the bowl game and when Hedlund's foot is about to make contact with the ball, there is a charging KState lineman standing 4 yards away.  At the moment the ball went up, he was in full leap and within 3 yards.  It's like trying to make a flop shot go 200 yards over a brick wall.  Kid didn't stand a chance.

[AirForceHog]

At least it is almost a consensus. PK blocking needs much improvement. I say almost because some posts seem to point blame at Hedlund with a lineman in his face.

[Mo_Better_Hogs]

No, we had Tretola, Ragnow, Kirkland, and Danenhauer on the FG unit the other day. Danenhauer was blown straight up by his guy, much like Voelzke was against Miss. St.

Wasn't he a SUBSTITUTE as a blocker that night? That was my issue. Didn't really know his assignment, which isn't entirely his fault.

[presidenthog]

Defensive line coach Rory Segrest coaches the snappers, kickers, punters and holder on special teams. That's all.

O-line coach is in charge of protection.

our holders have been a huge problem.

[Beaverfever]

Wasn't he a SUBSTITUTE as a blocker that night? That was my issue. Didn't really know his assignment, which isn't entirely his fault.

I was up the night before the Miss State game and was bored.  I decided I'd watch the Tx Tech game snap by snap and get a good look at our guys.  I don't really have any business breaking down game film but whatever I figured I'd see who really jumped off the screen.  One of the very few issues that was obvious to a non-expert like myself was "why do they let this Voelske kid play"  He's a senior and was getting owned regularly.  When I saw the Miss State block I said hold on who is the guy that just got whipped and let the kick get blocked.  When I saw it was him my head about exploded. 

[ChitownHawg]

I watched the replay of the bowl game and when Hedlund's foot is about to make contact with the ball, there is a charging KState lineman standing 4 yards away.  At the moment the ball went up, he was in full leap and within 3 yards.  It's like trying to make a flop shot go 200 yards over a brick wall.  Kid didn't stand a chance.

So we need to see if David Beckham is eligible? 

[ChitownHawg]

I was up the night before the Miss State game and was bored.  I decided I'd watch the Tx Tech game snap by snap and get a good look at our guys.  I don't really have any business breaking down game film but whatever I figured I'd see who really jumped off the screen.  One of the very few issues that was obvious to a non-expert like myself was "why do they let this Voelske kid play"  He's a senior and was getting owned regularly.  When I saw the Miss State block I said hold on who is the guy that just got whipped and let the kick get blocked.  When I saw it was him my head about exploded.

In your own words you don't know what you are talking about - and yet you think the issue and solution are obvious. Maybe you need to tell Jeff Long he is paying too much for assistant coaches. 

[AugustaHog]

Regardless of the feelings toward CSP, I can't fault the work of his OL after the Toledo game.  At that point, they decided to man up and start imposing will, which is what they did.  Even if he did a poor job of coaching kick protection all year, he wasn't here for the last month leading up to the bowl.  Therefore, one would assume that somebody else was the coach for this area for the bowl and responsible for the poor protection.  There's no need for us to point fingers, but this needs to be fixed ASAP.