Thoughts from A State game

[ErieHog]

Alright. my bad.

About JD. i agree. that pass he made to i think kingsley was purty.

About Qualls. is it me, or did it look like he has seriously improved his handles? at times last season i thought his handle looked really slopped, but last night i noticed he was handling the ball much better. curious to  see if anyone else noticed it

I was disappointed in Qualls' handles, actually.  It didn't look like he had much improvement there at all, especially with his left hand.  He is still much better moving off the ball, and catching, than trying to create on his own.

[intelligence]

I was disappointed in Qualls' handles, actually.  It didn't look like he had much improvement there at all, especially with his left hand.  He is still much better moving off the ball, and catching, than trying to create on his own.

Hmm interesting. I'll pay more attention on Wednesday soi can see what you were talking about

[BigBen]

I was disappointed after all the hype we had heard before the game. Bell and Bobby were the only two who impressed me at all. I'm sorry but I'm not on the Harris bandwagon. He's a ball stopper on offense and on a team like ours we can't have that. He needs to be limited to 3-4 dribbles and they must be attacking the basket. I'm tired of watching him dribble and try and put moves on someone. Madden for the most part looked uninterested idk if not starting got to him but it looked like he wasn't even looking for a shot most of the game. I was surprised by Watkins he looked like a solid overall player. I'm interested to see how he does as the year goes on. Yes I know we won and almost scored a 100 but if we want to be the top 25 team like everyone say we can be we can't be tied at half with teams like Alabama State. Yes the shot well in the first half but some of that was due to our horrible rotation on D. Hopefully it was just a fluke first game and some jitters but right now it doesn't look like we are ahead of where we were last year.

[Biggus Piggus]

Clearly this is going to be a sore spot with some fans all year. Kingsley played 15 minutes in the opener. Fifteen minutes.

[azhog10]

we get that from teams in about half the games, it happens when guys are continually left open.

The good thing is, this Hog team is good enough to survive that, where in the past when a team got hot, it was very possible they would run the Hogs out of the gym.

I am not going to get too excited or upset until they get a few games in, too much feeling out going on right now.

Our perimeter D wasn't great. That said, Bud Walton is known for being a shooters gym for the most part. But I think CMA stated it best. We werent' focused on the defensive end early in that game. Instead we turned it into an offensive game. I actually think tho, that helped us in the 2nd half. We were able to step the pressure up and their legs were gone after going up and down in the 1st half.

[azhog10]

Did Alabama  State hit all the 3's while we are in a zone...... Someone please help me out.... Except when we are playing a weak shooting team, I wouldn't play zone...... maybe just unexpectedly for a short time and then back to man. I don't believe in giving a shooter carte blanche to beat your brains out...... I am a big believer in hard man to man...... perhaps BB has passed me by. Did we not match up with their guards well??? Someone give me the skinny..... Azhog ....anybody?

From what I could tell we went to the matchup zone moer than I think we will normally see. My guess is CMA wanted to see what it looks like and figured this was as good a time as any. In these early games like this you are going to try things just to see how it goes. It may or may not be something you go to against a team that you are a little more worried about. I also think it has to do with personnel. I would have to go back and look at who was in the game and why that could have been. I felt when Watkins was in, we were mostly in man just because I remember him being all over the ball and I don't recall a whole lot of switching. That said if CMA is anything like Coach Z we will play zone a lot on BLOBs and possibly even some side out situations.

[azhog10]

Our man to man was awful most of the first half, giving up a ton of easy looks. Then not sure why we went zone against a team lighting up our man.

It's a matchup zone, and teams can be very effective going zone against a team that can shoot. It all depends on how you coach and teach the zone you are in. Many zones are constructed in a way that giving up a 3 is exactly what you don't want to do.

[azhog10]

He had one bad game after two good ones. Let's give him a few more games before making a final determination. He looked much improved before last game, let's see if he turns it around.

We can give him more games. But I just don't see it. I saw what I saw last year. I hope it turns around, I know CMA and others have been singing his praises. But for some guys they can look good in practices and exhibition type games. But when the better opponents step on the floor you still seem to crap yourself.

[Arkansas WR]

I was disappointed in Qualls' handles, actually.  It didn't look like he had much improvement there at all, especially with his left hand.  He is still much better moving off the ball, and catching, than trying to create on his own.

I agree. Definitely not where I thought he would be. I think they have improved very slightly, but he is not going to be breaking people's ankles this year. I think his shot looks better though.

[opineonswine]

Well all accurate observations, but one game isn't enough evidence to conclude anything.  I've seen all the preseason games including Red/White.  Williams was the most improved until Ala State.  Madden has struggled the last two games.  Ditto Miles.  Etc.  It's early.

I think the one thing that won't change is that Watkins is the surprise of the team. 

[Rawker]

Well all accurate observations, but one game isn't enough evidence to conclude anything.  I've seen all the preseason games including Red/White.  Williams was the most improved until Ala State.  Madden has struggled the last two games.  Ditto Miles.  Etc.  It's early.

I think the one thing that won't change is that Watkins is the surprise of the team.

I really like the way Watkins looked in his HS videos and was hoping he'd start to see the floor more.  I still think when games are big, he'll be a ghost, but it's good to know that he's being groomed to grow some, and he did a fine job with his chances.  No doubt it's only one game against competition that the Hogs were probably not geared up for (and they certainly didn't get help from the crowd....most pitiful Woo Pig of ALL TIME), but as I said when the comparison to previous MA programs was posted, we just don't have the same kinds of tough guards he's had at previous stops, and you have to have that for road games.  BUT I love all of our Hogs and go into watching each game with full optimism that someone (besides BP) will rise to the occasion.  PLEASE someone rise to the occasion.

[Biggus Piggus]

Fan support would help. The environment isn't top 100 anymore.

[Silky_Jackson]

Fan support would help. The environment isn't top 100 anymore.

What a sensational claim. Good luck getting lower level seats at the big games this season

[Biggus Piggus]

What a sensational claim. Good luck getting lower level seats at the big games this season

"The big games." The thrill is gone.

[HawgAdvocate]

"The big games." The thrill is gone.

Well said.

[Biggus Piggus]

lol you guys have to be trolling or are some special kind of stupid

Brilliant analysis. Lemme guess. You are ... 18? 14?

[Silky_Jackson]

Brilliant analysis. Lemme guess. You are ... 18? 14?

27 and there's not a handful on this board that have been to more games than I have.

[The_Iceman]

"The big games." The thrill is gone.

I think the size of the stadium hurts. While it's awesome to be able to pack 20,000 fans in when facing a major opponent, it also makes having 14,000 fans at a game look bad. Compare Bud Walton to other capacities:

Michigan State: 15,000
UCONN: 11,000
Kansas: 16,000
UCLA: 12,000
DUKE: 9,000

[Biggus Piggus]

27 and there's not a handful on this board that have been to more games than I have.

You see ... in 1977-78 when Arkansas won 32 games, the attendance for Hardin-Simmons in December was 96% of max attendance for the year (which was for the Texas game of course).

Actual attendance for the SEASON OPENER was 4,475...almost 2,000 smaller than ANY Barnhill crowd in 1977-78...when the place maxed out under 6,500.

[Biggus Piggus]

I think the size of the stadium hurts. While it's awesome to be able to pack 20,000 fans in when facing a major opponent, it also makes having 14,000 fans at a game look bad. Compare Bud Walton to other capacities:

Michigan State: 15,000
UCONN: 11,000
Kansas: 16,000
UCLA: 12,000
DUKE: 9,000

And 14,000 is one of the good days.

Rabid fans were part of what made Razorback basketball great. We don't have them now. Arkansas is handicapped by poor fan support. How can you recruit with the best with this handicap? Most people have forgotten what great support was like. Way too much show-me.

[HawgAdvocate]

^^Truth^^

20+ years ago fans would stand & yell almost from start to finish, at every game. Now...it's not even close. The basic vertical pole in the corner with simple light bulbs that stood as our crowd's "get loud" meter actually did a better job than any of today's 'fan experience/atmosphere inducing' tools can do. A fat man in overalls, sliding across the hardwood on his belly, was such a valued sideshow. How times have changed.

[rzrbkf4n]

-Portis got rid of his slight chicken wing shooting form.  Looks a ton better now.  We go as he goes

good. i don't like seeing him miss shots when he is directly under the basket. I get SEC tournament flashbacks /shudder/

[Breems]

^^Truth^^

20+ years ago fans would stand & yell almost from start to finish, at every game. Now...it's not even close. The basic vertical pole in the corner with simple light bulbs that stood as our crowd's "get loud" meter actually did a better job than any of today's 'fan experience/atmosphere inducing' tools can do. A fat man in overalls, sliding across the hardwood on his belly, was such a valued sideshow. How times have changed.

You talk like this is Arkansas-specific.

In any case... 20 years ago we were playing for Final Fours and championships. We've sucked for a decade+ now. Elite teams today retain great fan support. We aren't elite.

When Mike or someone else gets us back to the tournament,  we can start expecting better fan support.

[Biggus Piggus]

I don't care what you think is when "we" can expect better fan support. Great fan support was what made Arkansas different--from the mid-1970s until the demise of Nolan--and without it, Arkansas is not going to compete on the highest level.

[rude1]

And 14,000 is one of the good days.

Rabid fans were part of what made Razorback basketball great. We don't have them now. Arkansas is handicapped by poor fan support. How can you recruit with the best with this handicap? Most people have forgotten what great support was like. Way too much show-me.

The product hasn't been particularly good for 15+ years, it's understandable the fan support would be poor. Start making NCAA tourneys and advancing and I believe you will see much better fan support quickly. I would be surprised to see any program in the country do any better if their last 15+ years results were the same as ours have been.

[Science Fiction Greg]

I think most people understand if you win a lot more fans will come.  That's called fair-weather fans.  The point is we don't want to be that.  That sucks.

[Breems]

Oh gee golly, tell me something I don't know. No need to be defensive.

You fellas are acting like this is some kind of phenomenon. You apparently needed the logic spelled out.

I don't care what you think is when "we" can expect better fan support. Great fan support was what made Arkansas different--from the mid-1970s until the demise of Nolan--and without it, Arkansas is not going to compete on the highest level.

You = chicken.
Me = egg.

[Breems]

The product hasn't been particularly good for 15+ years, it's understandable the fan support would be poor. Start making NCAA tourneys and advancing and I believe you will see much better fan support quickly. I would be surprised to see any program in the country do any better if their last 15+ years results were the same as ours have been.

Exactly.

[Breems]

No goofus, I'm simply reminiscing on the topic of what our fan support used to be. We just had a pathetic 4k show up (teams, athletic staff, & concession workers included) to the official home opener this past Sunday afternoon. Troll away though if you still crave attention.

You were agreeing with Biggus, who I believe has this backwards, with your ^^^^truths^^^ and what not, so I was responding to both of you.

[Peter Porker]

Dang.

[ErieHog]

This is way too early in the season to be having a melt, considering the team is 1-0, and won the opener by double digits.

Chill out peoples.

[TheRazorbackGuy]

What has Dickie Nutt been doing to the red wolf hoops program?

[Biggus Piggus]

You fellas are acting like this is some kind of phenomenon. You apparently needed the logic spelled out.

You = chicken.
Me = egg.

Arkansas fan support, attendance wise, never wavered from 1984-85 -- Eddie Sutton's last, disturbing season -- through 1987-88 -- when Andrew Lang was a senior, and the Hogs were exceedingly average. You had to be really close to the program to know it was on the verge of greatness. Fans showed up and cheered, and sometimes the Hogs rewarded them with huge scoring margins over good opponents, playing over their heads.

The first game of the 1988-89 season was against Rider. Barnhill's environment was absolutely fricking incredible. The team fed on that energy. There is no substitute for it. That energy elevated everything. The team raised its view of itself. Being in a bigtime environment helped the team realize how good it could be.

That Arkansas team did not always fare well on the road, but it was outstanding at home. Everybody wanted to be part of that environment, because it was FUN. What is fun about less than 5,000 people showing up for the home opener?

[Breems]

Arkansas fan support, attendance wise, never wavered from 1984-85 -- Eddie Sutton's last, disturbing season -- through 1987-88 -- when Andrew Lang was a senior, and the Hogs were exceedingly average. You had to be really close to the program to know it was on the verge of greatness. Fans showed up and cheered, and sometimes the Hogs rewarded them with huge scoring margins over good opponents, playing over their heads.

The first game of the 1988-89 season was against Rider. Barnhill's environment was absolutely fricking incredible. The team fed on that energy. There is no substitute for it. That energy elevated everything. The team raised its view of itself. Being in a bigtime environment helped the team realize how good it could be.

That Arkansas team did not always fare well on the road, but it was outstanding at home. Everybody wanted to be part of that environment, because it was FUN. What is fun about less than 5,000 people showing up for the home opener?

And since that time, arena capacity has doubled and the product has been halved. Bad correlation.

Most schools are suffering from attendance problems for a multitude of reasons. We probably have the ability to climb back up, but it will remain a show-me type of thing.

[The_Iceman]

I wonder where our attendance ranks compared to teams that have made 3 or less NCAA tournaments in the last 10 years. Or, even 5 or less.

[azhog10]

Arkansas fan support, attendance wise, never wavered from 1984-85 -- Eddie Sutton's last, disturbing season -- through 1987-88 -- when Andrew Lang was a senior, and the Hogs were exceedingly average. You had to be really close to the program to know it was on the verge of greatness. Fans showed up and cheered, and sometimes the Hogs rewarded them with huge scoring margins over good opponents, playing over their heads.

The first game of the 1988-89 season was against Rider. Barnhill's environment was absolutely fricking incredible. The team fed on that energy. There is no substitute for it. That energy elevated everything. The team raised its view of itself. Being in a bigtime environment helped the team realize how good it could be.

That Arkansas team did not always fare well on the road, but it was outstanding at home. Everybody wanted to be part of that environment, because it was FUN. What is fun about less than 5,000 people showing up for the home opener?

You are also talking about a 2-3 year time frame when we weren't good. Not 15+.........

[Biggus Piggus]

You are also talking about a 2-3 year time frame when we weren't good. Not 15+.........

Now that's an exaggeration.

[The_Iceman]

Now that's an exaggeration.

We've only made the tournament 3 times in the last 10. And those three were right in a row.

[Biggus Piggus]

And since that time, arena capacity has doubled and the product has been halved. Bad correlation.

Most schools are suffering from attendance problems for a multitude of reasons. We probably have the ability to climb back up, but it will remain a show-me type of thing.

You. Don't. Get. It.

It is not a correlation! It is the simple truth. If we can't get enthusiastic fan support for a team this talented, what blue chip recruit is going to be impressed? We can't aspire to the bigtime without a bigtime environment. Excuses do not matter. I am not looking for explanations. I am stating a fact. The only reason why Arkansas basketball ever rose up is that fans were instantly willing to support a good product after years and years and years of ineptitude.

[The_Iceman]

You. Don't. Get. It.

It is not a correlation! It is the simple truth. If we can't get enthusiastic fan support for a team this talented, what blue chip recruit is going to be impressed? We can't aspire to the bigtime without a bigtime environment. Excuses do not matter. I am not looking for explanations. I am stating a fact. The only reason why Arkansas basketball ever rose up is that fans were instantly willing to support a good product after years and years and years of ineptitude.

I think the stadium is too big for the product we have right now. Even with 10,000 there...which is good for most schools...it is half empty and the environment is weak. I'm not sure we will ever pack out the stadium for a weak non-con opponent, even if we are a Top 25 team, but if we are successful, I think we can get 16,000+ in there for most SEC games.

[HawgAdvocate]

You. Don't. Get. It.

It is not a correlation! It is the simple truth. If we can't get enthusiastic fan support for a team this talented, what blue chip recruit is going to be impressed? We can't aspire to the bigtime without a bigtime environment. Excuses do not matter. I am not looking for explanations. I am stating a fact. The only reason why Arkansas basketball ever rose up is that fans were instantly willing to support a good product after years and years and years of ineptitude.

They don't get it because they never experienced it first-hand.

It's been nearly four years since Razorback football was a 'winner,' yet despite losing 17 straight conference games, a temperature of 20 degrees along the threat of driving home in winter precipitation the next day, not to mention the opportunity to simply watch from home on TV, we still had 70k fans show up last Saturday night.

THAT is fan support.

Look at the lengthy delay in being able to gather donated funds for a practice facility as a prime example. Long admitted it when he discussed such difficulties to the media. This is not a knock on any particular coach. It's just an honest assessment of how Arkansas currently views its basketball program.

[Silky_Jackson]

They don't get it because they never experienced it first-hand.

It's been nearly four years since Razorback football was a 'winner,' yet despite losing 17 straight conference games, a temperature of 20 degrees along the threat of driving home in winter precipitation the next day, not to mention the opportunity to simply watch from home on TV, we still had 70k fans show up last Saturday night.

THAT is fan support.

Look at the lengthy delay in being able to gather donated funds for a practice facility as a prime example. Long admitted it when he discussed such difficulties to the media. This is not a knock on any particular coach. It's just an honest assessment of how Arkansas currently views its basketball program.

2 things:

I was there in the good years all through the 90's at the end of Barnhill and since the beginning of BWA. No one in the country is filling up arenas like they did in the 90's.  If you have any grasp of economics you can figure this out.  I'll help you a little--television deals and household spending $. (Ticket prices go up + fan's spending $ goes down + an alternative way to watch every game from home is now available = our situation.)

As for LSU comparison. I was at the game and it was not a tough ticket to get.  In fact, it was so bad that I had 5 different people offer me tickets for FREE.  I had 4 tix I was trying to give away and ended up selling all 4 of them right before kickoff to a scalper for $5 total. 

The atmosphere was a blast and what a mistake those people all made not going.  But if you would like to bet, I will bet you whatever you want that you cannot get free basketball tickets outside BWA for our biggest homegames.

But hey, I get it. Some of you guys are really emotional

[azhog10]

Now that's an exaggeration.

Is it? We've only won 20 games in a season 5 times, in the last 15 seasons with 4 NCAAT appearances. Zero Sweet 16 appearances in the last 15 seasons, obviously this year hasn't been decided yet. In Nolan's 15-16 year career we made 6 Sweet 16 or better appearances. Barnhill only packed 10k and there isn't a year in which we wouldn't have been on average over that 10k mark. Since the Bud was built attendance has slowly went down, but so has the program. Our largest attendance average came the first year it was opened and the year we happened to win it all. 09-11 was the worst two seasons we have ever had attendance wise since the Bud was opened. Since that time we have went from 29th nationally in attendance to 10th.

What's even more shocking is it's not just that Arkansas is down, it's that fans in general, ALL ACROSS THE NATION, aren't going to games. In 2000 we averaged 16k fans and were ranked 9th in avg attendance, in 2014 we were ranked 10th with only 14k fans. It's not a fair weather fan thing. It's the convenience of being able to watch the game from home and not have to pay for a ticket. Exactly why you see more and more teams going to a smaller stadium.

[azhog10]

Look at the lengthy delay in being able to gather donated funds for a practice facility as a prime example. Long admitted it when he discussed such difficulties to the media. This is not a knock on any particular coach. It's just an honest assessment of how America currently views almost every single college basketball program.

FIFY

Here's an article that shows the decline in SEC Schools. Even Kentucky saw a small decrease. There are more articles out there about other conferences experiencing the same thing. It's not just an Arkansas thing, or a winning and losing thing. While winning helps and we would see an increase in attedance. We aren't going to see the days of 18k anymore and that's just the way it is.

http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2014/02/sec_asks_espn_for_help_with_co.html

[Breems]

They don't get it because they never experienced it first-hand.

It's been nearly four years since Razorback football was a 'winner,' yet despite losing 17 straight conference games, a temperature of 20 degrees along the threat of driving home in winter precipitation the next day, not to mention the opportunity to simply watch from home on TV, we still had 70k fans show up last Saturday night.

THAT is fan support.

Look at the lengthy delay in being able to gather donated funds for a practice facility as a prime example. Long admitted it when he discussed such difficulties to the media. This is not a knock on any particular coach. It's just an honest assessment of how Arkansas currently views its basketball program.

Now you've truly switched to oranges. I'll play anyway.

Let's unveil the mystery.

In the past 6-7 years, the football team has fielded a Heisman candidate, 2 of the best quarterbacks in our history, a Sugar Bowl appearance, and consecutive seasons ranked in the top 25 (peaking at #3 3 years ago).

In the past 6-7 years, our basketball program has had 0 lottery picks, disastrous coaching hires, and 1 grand appearance in the Big Dance. We still rank in the top 3 in SEC attendance and the number has been increasing for a few years.

Add on top of that that college football is more popular in general and the SEC is a football conference that allows for many more "big" home games.

If you read this and still expect basketball fan support to be an excuse-free equivalent to football, I can no longer help you, especially when you're complaining about a game against Alabama St.

[Breems]

Silky and azhog10 spelled it out as well.

[HawgAdvocate]

FIFY

Here's an article that shows the decline in SEC Schools. Even Kentucky saw a small decrease. There are more articles out there about other conferences experiencing the same thing. It's not just an Arkansas thing, or a winning and losing thing. While winning helps and we would see an increase in attedance. We aren't going to see the days of 18k anymore and that's just the way it is.

http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2014/02/sec_asks_espn_for_help_with_co.html

Declining attendance is real for EVERY major sport, the NFL included. TV contracts make it far too easy to stay at home. That's not really the focus here though.

Again, as BP stated, we have a talented roster, a style our fans are known to enjoy, and a team that should certainly reach the postseason for the first time in many years....and we still don't have the fan support we need or want.

You guys are all true fans. We all know this. You're not on trial here. Remove yourself from the equation and look at it from a broader perspective. We have a lot of 8pm home games this year. It will affect attendance because we don't have the fan support we need.

I don't know why you guys are so defensive about this. It's nothing you shouldn't already know.

Silky and azhog10 spelled it out as well.

Excuses do not matter. I am not looking for explanations. I am stating a fact.

[Razorod]

I even think a number of years ago, maybe on a different board, BP predicted that BWA at 19K would be a bit of an albatross for coaches trying to fill it. Should have built a nice arena @12-15K--kind of like what OkSt has.

[The_Iceman]

I wish there was a way to close off the upper deck until the lower level was 95% full. That would help the atmosphere a lot, and help the look on TV.

[The_Iceman]

I even think a number of years ago, maybe on a different board, BP predicted that BWA at 19K would be a bit of an albatross for coaches trying to fill it. Should have built a nice arena @12-15K--kind of like what OkSt has.

I think the size had a lot to do with the donor. Wal-Mart wanted a large arena to hold its shareholders meeting in NWA.