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Redshirting--- The unanswered questions

Started by Lake City Hog, October 29, 2014, 09:16:54 pm

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Lake City Hog

We have 2 threads on page 1 concerning Redshirts.

Is it too late to take off a redshirt?  Should we play Jojo this late in the season?

and

A Fact. And a case for stability. Mississippis State has 16 RS Seniors this year and we have 4.

In light of those 2 threads I have a couple of questions:
1. What factors are or should be considered when deciding whether or not to redshirt a particular player?

2. Are certain positions better suited to redshirting than other positions?

3. Do you think that we have used the redshirt option wisely over the past 2 years?

tophawg19

we have had players leave early who otherwise would be R/S SRS .
if you ain't a hawg you ain't chitlins

 

JaketheSnake

Quote from: tophawg19 on October 29, 2014, 09:20:35 pm
we have had players leave early who otherwise would be R/S SRS .
Does it matter why they are gone when talking about this?  Ms St had kids leave too... To make this system work and be successful we have to have a great redshirt program

tbhogfan

1)   Only if the only reason for the RS is medical, he's 100% recovered, AND we're pretty sure that he's going to the NFL as soon as he can anyway, in which case RS doesn't makes sense due to the final years of eligibility not being used.

2) Yes, but it just depends on the player.  QB and OL are two that are commonly redshirted, but any player that you feel would benefit from the year and is in a position with quality depth above him would be a good candidate.  Some players show up ready to contribute on the first day, and others need some time to get into better condition and get used to the speed of the game.

3)  The coaches know what they need.  I think in the future, they will redshirt most all OL's coming into the program.  I would have preferred them to have RS'ed Kirkland and Skipper last year, instead of throwing them into a 3-8 season.  We could have gone 3-8 without them, but that's just my opinion and I don't make a six-figure salary to coach football.

Go Hogs!

ifghog

If he helps us get to a bowl game do it. Know one knows the future. He could blow his knee out next year...fail a class.....get home sick...you play whoever helps you win...period. Especially a receiver.

Lake City Hog

I wonder just how many of our "NFL Stars" actually make it?
If I had a dollar for every Arkansas Freshman that will only stay 3 years I would be in pretty good shape right now. It seems like we recruit 3 to 5 every year that "will only be here 3 years anyway."

I see 2 reasons for not redshirting, REAL need and recruiting. If we have such a glaring weakness that playing a true freshman would actually contribute to winning games, pull it. Playing freshmen to pull a few kids that aren't quite sure, but PT might get them over the hump, pull it. I guess that a 3rd reason might be depth, if we have a glut of good players at one position losing that redshirt season might not hurt as much.

I think that there are 2 positions that redshirting is not as critical, Running Back and Kicker. Those are positions that recruiting to seem to be a bit easier and the learning curve is fairly easy.

I think that there are also 2 positions that redshirting is much more critical, QB and O'Line. QB because of the steep learning curve and O'Line for the maturity level. I do believe that redshirting is by far the best choice for the player as well as the team.

WarPig88

Quote from: Lake City Hog on October 29, 2014, 09:16:54 pm
We have 2 threads on page 1 concerning Redshirts.

Is it too late to take off a redshirt?  Should we play Jojo this late in the season?

and

A Fact. And a case for stability. Mississippis State has 16 RS Seniors this year and we have 4.

In light of those 2 threads I have a couple of questions:
1. What factors are or should be considered when deciding whether or not to redshirt a particular player?

2. Are certain positions better suited to redshirting than other positions?

3. Do you think that we have used the redshirt option wisely over the past 2 years?

We haven't used the rs wisely in nearly two decades.

We used to RS guys like Carlos Hall and Quentin Caver.

A serious RS program is what it will take to even out the talent gap between us and programs like Bama and LSU.

But even now, we are playing every frosh we can and still waiting for years to win games. Why aren't we RS more guys? I don't know.

ricepig

Quote from: WarPig88 on October 30, 2014, 10:05:18 pm
We haven't used the rs wisely in nearly two decades.

We used to RS guys like Carlos Hall and Quentin Caver.

A serious RS program is what it will take to even out the talent gap between us and programs like Bama and LSU.

But even now, we are playing every frosh we can and still waiting for years to win games. Why aren't we RS more guys? I don't know.

We play every freshman we have to.

WarPig88

Quote from: ricepig on October 30, 2014, 10:09:06 pm
We play every freshman we have to.

It only makes sense if they get you to a bowl.

It makes no sense to do it when your only going to win 3 games or 5 games.

ChicoHog

I heard on College Sports Radio today during a Butch Jones interview that Tennessee is playing 22 true freshman. He also said of the 70 players traveling to SCarolina this saturday 61 of them have not played there-they play there every other year-which means they are either freshman, RS freshmen, Soph or RS soph.  Only 9 jrs and seniors.  that's pretty amazing. 

jjdlc

Quote from: WarPig88 on October 30, 2014, 10:05:18 pm
We haven't used the rs wisely in nearly two decades.

We used to RS guys like Carlos Hall and Quentin Caver.

A serious RS program is what it will take to even out the talent gap between us and programs like Bama and LSU.

But even now, we are playing every frosh we can and still waiting for years to win games. Why aren't we RS more guys? I don't know.

We pretty much had no choice, the senior class this year is very small, and the junior class isn't much better. 

WarPig88

Quote from: jjdlc on October 30, 2014, 11:48:19 pm
We pretty much had no choice, the senior class this year is very small, and the junior class isn't much better.

So 8 wins in 2 years is worth mortgaging the future?

This isn't just a CBB thing. Petrino and Nutt didn't do it either.

There is zero reason for Nutt not having a good rs program having been here for a decade.

Petrino should have at least trying by year 4, but you can understand why he didn't early on. We had a realistic chance to win big in only year 3.

That hasn't been the case here. We just wasted a year of eligibility for Skipper, Ragnow, and Kirkland. A year that they could have grown bigger and stronger in.

Just something to think about. I am not indicting CBB in any way.

Darren DeLoach

Quote from: WarPig88 on October 30, 2014, 11:58:20 pm
So 8 wins in 2 years is worth mortgaging the future?

This isn't just a CBB thing. Petrino and Nutt didn't do it either.

There is zero reason for Nutt not having a good rs program having been here for a decade.

Petrino should have at least trying by year 4, but you can understand why he didn't early on. We had a realistic chance to win big in only year 3.

That hasn't been the case here. We just wasted a year of eligibility for Skipper, Ragnow, and Kirkland. A year that they could have grown bigger and stronger in.

Just something to think about. I am not indicting CBB in any way.

Do you even pay attention?

BB is the first coach since Broyles to actually have a plan for a robust RS program. WE HAD NO LINEMAN. We still lack serious depth at OL. If he would have stayed the course his first year and RS the true Sophs we have now, the QB's and RB's would be a MASH unit. He would have loved to redshirt those guy's, but there just wasn't enough players at their position to allow that.
ο λογος υμων παντοτε εν χαριτι αλατι ηρτυμενος ειδεναι πως δει υμας ενι εκαστω αποκρινεσθαι

 

hawg IQ

Quote from: Lake City Hog on October 29, 2014, 09:16:54 pm
We have 2 threads on page 1 concerning Redshirts.

Is it too late to take off a redshirt?  Should we play Jojo this late in the season?

and

A Fact. And a case for stability. Mississippis State has 16 RS Seniors this year and we have 4.

In light of those 2 threads I have a couple of questions:
1. What factors are or should be considered when deciding whether or not to redshirt a particular player?

2. Are certain positions better suited to redshirting than other positions?

3. Do you think that we have used the redshirt option wisely over the past 2 years?
factors about certain players redshirting, answer : maturity, family, injury, personal issues and I'm sure several other reasons.

Is it too late -answer: probably, but an old rule of thumb is any player that can get a W in win column can pull the r-shirt.

positions- answer: Skill position can usually contribute quicker.

Have we used our red shirt wisely ? I doubt if anyone know the answer here.
good reasons to pull red shirts are depth, injuries and such. This is mostly a  head coach decision.
go hogs go !

hogsanity

Quote from: WarPig88 on October 30, 2014, 11:58:20 pm

That hasn't been the case here. We just wasted a year of eligibility for Skipper, Ragnow, and Kirkland. A year that they could have grown bigger and stronger in.


IF they had not played FR on the OL in 2013, they literally could not have put a OL on the field. That is how depleted, due to players leaving, and injures, that position was.

People ask me what I do in winter when there is no baseball.  I will tell you what I do. I stare out the window, and I wait for spring.

"Anything goes wrong, anything at all, your fault, my fault, nobodies fault, I'm going to blow your head off."  John Wayne in BIG JAKE

jjdlc

Quote from: WarPig88 on October 30, 2014, 11:58:20 pm
So 8 wins in 2 years is worth mortgaging the future?

This isn't just a CBB thing. Petrino and Nutt didn't do it either.

There is zero reason for Nutt not having a good rs program having been here for a decade.

Petrino should have at least trying by year 4, but you can understand why he didn't early on. We had a realistic chance to win big in only year 3.

That hasn't been the case here. We just wasted a year of eligibility for Skipper, Ragnow, and Kirkland. A year that they could have grown bigger and stronger in.

Just something to think about. I am not indicting CBB in any way.

We're talking Beilema here, I'm sure he would have loved to RS some of those OL, but face it, we were nearly at the point where if anyone got hurt, we would have been holding open trials for OL.  How would you like facing SEC teams with a TE or worse a RB playing left guard?

Quote
I am not indicting CBB in any way.

LOL, that is exactly what your trying to do.

Tim Harris

The fact that we are redshirting a guy like Brian Wallace says he is at least trying to build up the RS program.  Also shows we are starting to get a little bit of depth because we probably wouldn't have been able to do that last year.

As far as what position can play early I've heard many coaches/announcers say the farther away from the ball you are the easier it is to play early.  So RB and WR on offense and CB and S on defense.

dhizzle

We will probably complain when we do red-shirt more players, because they will not be getting playing time experience. It's probably a difficult decision you can either set a guy and train him or throw him in the fire and let him learn that way. Really good players are not going to stay 4 or five years anyway. 

ricepig

Quote from: WarPig88 on October 30, 2014, 11:03:28 pm
It only makes sense if they get you to a bowl.

It makes no sense to do it when your only going to win 3 games or 5 games.

No, some need to play the minute they get on campus, they're that much better than the upper classmen. If you know you are only going to win 3/5 games before the season starts, you need to find a different job.

hogsanity

Quote from: ricepig on October 31, 2014, 08:53:14 am
No, some need to play the minute they get on campus, they're that much better than the upper classmen. If you know you are only going to win 3/5 games before the season starts, you need to find a different job.

Like this year, they had every intention of playing Jo Jo, but he was dinged up almost as soon as fall camp opened, according to reports, and BB has mentioned him specifically a couple of time. He was going to play against A&M, then during game week he tweaked a foot.  Skill level was never an issue, he just was not healthy enough to put those skills to use.
People ask me what I do in winter when there is no baseball.  I will tell you what I do. I stare out the window, and I wait for spring.

"Anything goes wrong, anything at all, your fault, my fault, nobodies fault, I'm going to blow your head off."  John Wayne in BIG JAKE

GolfnHog

Quote from: Tim Harris on October 31, 2014, 07:58:06 am
The fact that we are redshirting a guy like Brian Wallace says he is at least trying to build up the RS program.  Also shows we are starting to get a little bit of depth because we probably wouldn't have been able to do that last year.

As far as what position can play early I've heard many coaches/announcers say the farther away from the ball you are the easier it is to play early.  So RB and WR on offense and CB and S on defense.

In this, some of the skill players mentioned that come in probably need the RS year just to get their bodies built up to take the punishment they didn't receive as HS players.

I've always been a proponent that if you RS them and then they only play less than 3 yrs and leave for the NFL then their 1st contract stipulates they reimburse the school for the cost of that year. Stay 4 or 5 yrs it then it can remain status quo.

In that, part of the redshirt program should require every university to make a athlete take a mandatory money management class in their 3rd year removed from HS so those that have the talent and aspiration to get to the next level realize that the NFL has a relatively short career span for most of them. But that's a topic for another day.

Have you ever listened to someone  or read what they put into thoughts and wondered...."who ties your shoelaces for you?"

hogsanity

Quote from: GolfnHog on October 31, 2014, 09:32:21 am
In this, some of the skill players mentioned that come in probably need the RS year just to get their bodies built up to take the punishment they didn't receive as HS players.

I've always been a proponent that if you RS them and then they only play less than 3 yrs and leave for the NFL then their 1st contract stipulates they reimburse the school for the cost of that year. Stay 4 or 5 yrs it then it can remain status quo.

In that, part of the redshirt program should require every university to make a athlete take a mandatory money management class in their 3rd year removed from HS so those that have the talent and aspiration to get to the next level realize that the NFL has a relatively short career span for most of them. But that's a topic for another day.


Most guys, other than at QB. that have the skills to leave early do not RS ( except for injury ).  A Wr with leave early talent, or a Db, is going to play as a FR.

RS is still very important at LB, and on the OL/DL just for physical development.
People ask me what I do in winter when there is no baseball.  I will tell you what I do. I stare out the window, and I wait for spring.

"Anything goes wrong, anything at all, your fault, my fault, nobodies fault, I'm going to blow your head off."  John Wayne in BIG JAKE

GolfnHog

Quote from: hogsanity on October 31, 2014, 09:53:55 am
Most guys, other than at QB. that have the skills to leave early do not RS ( except for injury ).  A Wr with leave early talent, or a Db, is going to play as a FR.

RS is still very important at LB, and on the OL/DL just for physical development.

Can't argue any of your points. I understand that those that have the talent that play the 3 and leave have financial considerations that play into their decsions. However, I realize scholarships are a year to year deal so, yes, that sorta skews my position.

If there was a commitment by the schools to make the scholarships for 4 years( and that is now being considered or done at some institutions) then the "payback" at rookie contract time would be a viable option.
Have you ever listened to someone  or read what they put into thoughts and wondered...."who ties your shoelaces for you?"

Piggfoot

Quote from: ricepig on October 31, 2014, 08:53:14 am
No, some need to play the minute they get on campus, they're that much better than the upper classmen. If you know you are only going to win 3/5 games before the season starts, you need to find a different job.
Words fail me.
Hog fan since 1960. So thankful for Sam Pittman.

 

texas tush hog

Quote from: Tim Harris on October 31, 2014, 07:58:06 am
The fact that we are redshirting a guy like Brian Wallace says he is at least trying to build up the RS program.  Also shows we are starting to get a little bit of depth because we probably wouldn't have been able to do that last year.

As far as what position can play early I've heard many coaches/announcers say the farther away from the ball you are the easier it is to play early.  So RB and WR on offense and CB and S on defense.


Until we are able to redshirt at least half of our recruiting class we have no business trying to compete with the likes of Bama, LSU, and Georgia who traditionally do so. A&M is learning this lesson too. We need a couple more good, not necessarily great classes to do this. When we get this type of depth we can compete on a somewhat equal basis, but until then, it is ridiculous to criticize BA and Chaney. Like going to a gunfight with a six-shooter with three blanks in it or an original M16 that jammed a lot. He that hath an ear.

hogsanity

Quote from: GolfnHog on October 31, 2014, 10:07:20 am
Can't argue any of your points. I understand that those that have the talent that play the 3 and leave have financial considerations that play into their decsions. However, I realize scholarships are a year to year deal so, yes, that sorta skews my position.

If there was a commitment by the schools to make the scholarships for 4 years( and that is now being considered or done at some institutions) then the "payback" at rookie contract time would be a viable option.


Not that I disagree, but what if a kid just leaves early, not to play pro ball, just does not want to play ball any more, period.
People ask me what I do in winter when there is no baseball.  I will tell you what I do. I stare out the window, and I wait for spring.

"Anything goes wrong, anything at all, your fault, my fault, nobodies fault, I'm going to blow your head off."  John Wayne in BIG JAKE

ricepig


GolfnHog

Quote from: hogsanity on October 31, 2014, 10:27:58 am
Not that I disagree, but what if a kid just leaves early, not to play pro ball, just does not want to play ball any more, period.

One of the things I've learned about contracts/agreements. There is always negotiation loopholes that assist in deviation based on circumstances
Have you ever listened to someone  or read what they put into thoughts and wondered...."who ties your shoelaces for you?"

Lake City Hog

Can someone tell me just how many University of Arkansas players that have gone pro after their Junior year? (actually declared for the draft and then actually got drafted)That is the most common misconception on this board.

To me playing Skipper, Kirkland and Ellis last year was a complete waste as was playing Ragnow this year. Had we held those guys out last year our record would have been exactly the same as it was, but BB's 5th year could have been loaded with 4th year Juniors and 5th year Seniors.

hogsanity

Quote from: Lake City Hog on October 31, 2014, 02:23:41 pm
Can someone tell me just how many University of Arkansas players that have gone pro after their Junior year? (actually declared for the draft and then actually got drafted)That is the most common misconception on this board.

To me playing Skipper, Kirkland and Ellis last year was a complete waste as was playing Ragnow this year. Had we held those guys out last year our record would have been exactly the same as it was, but BB's 5th year could have been loaded with 4th year Juniors and 5th year Seniors.

The only ones I am sure of are Shawn Andrews, RM ( as a RS JR ), Dmac and Felix. Maybe Batman?

They HAD to play Skipper and Kirkland last year or they very well may not have had a OL.
People ask me what I do in winter when there is no baseball.  I will tell you what I do. I stare out the window, and I wait for spring.

"Anything goes wrong, anything at all, your fault, my fault, nobodies fault, I'm going to blow your head off."  John Wayne in BIG JAKE

jjdlc

Quote from: hogsanity on October 31, 2014, 02:59:02 pm

They HAD to play Skipper and Kirkland last year or they very well may not have had a OL.

People have forgotten just how thin we were on the OL going into last year.

Wildhog

Quote from: jjdlc on October 31, 2014, 05:53:05 pm
People have forgotten just how thin we were on the OL going into last year.

We're still quite thin on the OL.
Arkansas Razorbacks Football National Championships:
1909/1964/1965/1977

WarPig88

Quote from: hogsanity on October 31, 2014, 02:59:02 pm
The only ones I am sure of are Shawn Andrews, RM ( as a RS JR ), Dmac and Felix. Maybe Batman?

They HAD to play Skipper and Kirkland last year or they very well may not have had a OL.

Whatever.

Those 3 wins really were worth it.

WarPig88

Quote from: ricepig on October 31, 2014, 08:53:14 am
No, some need to play the minute they get on campus, they're that much better than the upper classmen. If you know you are only going to win 3/5 games before the season starts, you need to find a different job.

You will find yourself needing a different job if you can't tell when wasting a rs on a linemen isn't going to help you win more than 3 to 5 games in a season.

Like I said, 3 years from now when these guys are gone, those measly 8 wins won't be worth it when you lose two late because you find you still lack depth.


woodrow hog call

Quote from: WarPig88 on October 31, 2014, 10:03:25 pm
You will find yourself needing a different job if you can't tell when wasting a rs on a linemen isn't going to help you win more than 3 to 5 games in a season.

Like I said, 3 years from now when these guys are gone, those measly 8 wins won't be worth it when you lose two late because you find you still lack depth.


Some decisions are about the here and now, others are about next year and down the road.
Having enough guys for an O line is kind of needed in this league.

They will throw a flag for "not enough men on the line of scrimmage " so you need to have enough not to get penalties called every play. Watch a game or two you'll catch on.




"I hate rude behavior in a man, I won't tolerate it"