A fact. And a case for stability.

[S.A.D.C]

Danny West tweeted: 

@DannyWest1: MSU signed 28 players in 2010, 16 of them are playing as seniors. #Arkansas signed 25 in 2010, four of them are still here. #BobbysMess

[Hook 'em Hogs]

Wow

[rljjr]

Sobering.

[Wildhog]

Well, we're still not redshirting many guys...

[JackJohnson]

So he redshirted 16 guys from his 1st full class a year after going 5-7.  Impressive since CBB isn't going to have that many redshirted combined from his 1st two classes therefore we still won't be saying that in 4 years

[Vantage 8 dude]

Well, we're still not redshirting many guys...

'Fraid your missing part of the point. Go back and look at the # of recruits under CBP that were booted out, flunked out, or otherwise have been dismissed/quit out of the various classes. Even if we had redshirted every kid in most of his classes (and those under "Smiley") we would have still been shorthanded today with senior experience because so many of these kids either couldn't or didn't "hack" it.

Note: These comments should have actually been directed more toward JackJohnson's comments/observations concerning Mullin's redshirts. My bad.

[Vantage 8 dude]

Petrino hasn't been here to coach those guys in over 2 years, so it's a moot point.  No one knows with any certainty whether or not more players would still be here with less coaching upheaval.

Well what we DO know is that for whatever reason(s) the number of kids that were original in the same year's recruiting class on the Hill aren't here today. Therefore to bemoan the fact that we lack the large class of senior leadership that MSU has the luxury of utilizing has to be put into context. However, I certainly agree that stability at the HC position (and hopefully staff as well) tends to be FAR healthier all things equal. BTW go back and check the # of kids in CBP's classes that failed to ever contribute for whatever reason(s) and many while he was still here...IMO my earlier point's still valid in that regard.

[Pigdiana Jones]

Someone beat me to it, but I was going to say CBP has t been here in two years to coach them, so why would his players stay?

[Lake City Hog]

A little dishonesty in the OP. Failed to mention 7 players that graduated and 1 that died. Those numbers would put that class just about even with MSU's class.
We simply could not afford to redshirt many of those guys.

Petrino had too many misses, no argument there. But, damn guys let's at least try to be reasonable about things. We could very well look back on last year's class and say wouldn't it have been nice to redshirt Skipper, Collins, Henry, Kirkland, Dean, Ellis and a couple of others.

[Jackrabbit Hog]

The point to be taken from the OP is that if you recruit with a plan, and if you stay with that plan, and if you are willing to sacrifice a year for a kid to make him better in the long run - thus making the team better in the long run - even though your fans are clammering for the kid to play, more times than not you will be rewarded.

[hobhog]

Someone beat me to it, but I was going to say CBP has t been here in two years to coach them, so why would his players stay?

How did you miss the part that said "and a case for stability"?

[The Pulse]

Auburn signed 32 in 2010. They only have 5 still there.

I guess that's why it will take Gus a few years before he cleans up chiziks mess and starts getting to bowl games.

[lahawg1]

Auburn signed 32 in 2010. They only have 5 still there.

I guess that's why it will take Gus a few years before he cleans up chiziks mess and starts getting to bowl games.

Yeah, I guess with Gus doing all that recruiting for his system back then that don't count either....

[Jek Tono Porkins]

I think the point here is "one way to overcome recruiting disadvantages," MSU has been consistently out-recruited by the rest of the SEC for years. Like really out-recruited. But Mullen has found the diamonds in the rough, kept them in his system for 5 years, and now he has an experienced upperclassmen that are sitting at the top of the SEC. It's pretty much what Bielema did at Wisconsin and is what he is trying to do here. The only drawback is that it requires time, as in years.

[Wants2Win]

The season isn't over yet guys. The only quality wins they have are auburn and @ LSU. The rest aren't very impressive. It's a little early to crown them IMO.

[hawg IQ]

Danny West tweeted: 

@DannyWest1: MSU signed 28 players in 2010, 16 of them are playing as seniors. #Arkansas signed 25 in 2010, four of them are still here. #BobbysMess

amazing how anybody can keep that many to become seniors..
I don't know how much it is really Bobby's mess however. I think the fact that Mullins remained coach helps, anytime you have 3 different coaches in those same 4 years says quite a bit.

  Anyway how 16 players even panned out is amazing too.

[S.A.D.C]

Not exactly putting our current situation in a positive light, so I doubt that was the point of the OP. 
Even though it's probably valid.  Hey, we're redshirting a 4* kicker!

Pretty sure it was just the latest attempt at deflection.

I appreciate you trying (and miserably failing) to decipher my OP.  There is no NEED to "deflect" anything so I don't know what that even means.  The point is MSU has proven stability and giving a plan time builds depth and success.  I wish we were redshirting more now.  I have a strong feeling next year and year after we will more.  But those on here who want to run coaches off after 2 years are myopic.

Th

[S.A.D.C]

The season isn't over yet guys. The only quality wins they have are auburn and @ LSU. The rest aren't very impressive. It's a little early to crown them IMO.

Are you really trying to go with the "but MSU isn't very good this year" argument?  Because that is silly.  Have you watched them?  Have you seen anyone who you think is better?  Does anyone have a more impressive resume?  And let me remind you- we are talking about Mississippi freaking State here!  Don't try to deny that the guy has done an incredible job and a really historically crappy place.

[Wants2Win]

Are you really trying to go with the "but MSU isn't very good this year" argument?  Because that is silly.  Have you watched them?  Have you seen anyone who you think is better?  Does anyone have a more impressive resume?  And let me remind you- we are talking about Mississippi freaking State here!  Don't try to deny that the guy has done an incredible job and a really historically crappy place.

Google their schedule. Non conf. Games are a joke. They'll lose a regular season game, maybe 2.

[Jek Tono Porkins]

Google their schedule. Non conf. Games are a joke. They'll lose a regular season game, maybe 2.

Who gives a crap about their non-conference schedule? They beat LSU in Baton Rouge and they beat Auburn. Even if they do lose a regular season game, that's still an 11-1 regular season in the SEC West and a top 5 ranking.

[redeye]

I think West is making a huge point.

Seniors on the roster (regardless of how they got there)

If you only look at starters, I believe MSU leads everyone.  Where I think they've gained an advantage over other SEC-W teams is they've developed their talent, while Alabama, Auburn, LSU, etc are just reloading with younger players, after losing their best early to the draft.  This is also what Bielema is doing.

Alabama and LSU are considered title contenders every year, but they have an unexpected drop-off every 2-3 years, because the young talent isn't as ready as football analysts believe them to be.

[Jackrabbit Hog]

I think this is a huge point.

If you only look at starters, I believe MSU leads everyone.  Where I think they've gained an advantage over other SEC-W teams is they've developed their talent, while Alabama, Auburn, LSU, etc are just reloading with younger players, after losing their best early to the draft.  This is also what Bielema is doing.

Alabama and LSU are considered title contenders every year, but they have an unexpected drop-off every 2-3 years, because the young talent isn't as ready as football analysts believe them to be.

That's a good point.  Although not as extreme, it's analogous to what Calipari does at Kentucky.  He recruits national championship quality talent every year but sometimes a class just doesn't turn out to be quite as good as the experts thought, or there are chemistry issues, etc.  If that happens, you have no "developed talent" behind them.

[Choctaw Hog]

Seniors on the roster (regardless of how they got there)

Alabama - 22

Arkansas - 18

Auburn - 21

Miss St - 19

Florida - 23

Georgia - 25

Ole Miss - 20

And of those numbers, how may are starting or getting significant playing time? 

[S.A.D.C]

Google their schedule. Non conf. Games are a joke. They'll lose a regular season game, maybe 2.

So you think they are not very good?  Who do you think is better?  Who has a better resume?

Also- everyone's non-conference schedule is crap!  And if you play in the SEC West and it isn't crap you are dumb!  The conference schedule is more than challenging.  You don't need to boost your schedule here....

[HF#1]

Well, we're still not redshirting many guys...

You serious Clark?  Bielema is redshirting what he can redshirt. 

[Wildhog]

You serious Clark?  Bielema is redshirting what he can redshirt. 

Eh...  I don't blame him for the most part.  But there are definitely several that have had their shirts burned that have not really seen the field.

[Atlhogfan1]

Seniors

2014 Arkansas Razorbacks
NO NAME POS HT WT CLASS HOMETOWN

7 Tiquention Coleman LB 5-10 212 SR Mauldin, SC

11 AJ Derby TE 6-5 255 SR Iowa City, IA

21 Carroll Washington CB 6-0 185 SR Baltimore, MD

23 Tevin Mitchel CB 6-0 190 SR Mansfield, TX

27 Alan Turner S 6-0 204 SR Junction City, AR

34 Braylon Mitchell LB 6-3 235 SR North Little Rock, AR

40 Patrick Arinze RB 5-10 257 SR La Mesa, CA

43 John Henson PK 5-11 172 SR Southlake, TX

47 Martrell Spaight LB 6-0 232 SR North Little Rock, AR

52 Daunte Carr LB 6-3 224 SR Gainesville, GA

67 Johnathan McClure OL 6-4 330 SR Wichita, KS

70 Chris Stringer OT 6-7 331 SR Rancho Cucamonga, CA

74 Brey Cook G 6-7 322 SR Springdale, AR

82 Alan D'Appollonio LS 6-0 238 SR Phoenix, AZ

85 Demetrius Wilson WR 6-3 198 SR Glendale, AZ

86 Trey Flowers DE 6-4 268 SR Huntsville, AL

92 Sam Irwin-Hill PK 6-3 209 SR --


Some of these seniors were JC transfers and have not been in the program since 2010 0r 11. 

[Oklahawg]

I am not interesting in quantifying two separate issues.

Issue one: I suspect some of the same posters beefing about the lack of a redshirt program are beefing about the wins and losses, particularly in the conference.

Issue two: there is a quantifiable way to address this, and it has been done by many.  The lack of current redshirts is directly related to the lack of serviceable players leftover from the Petrino era...when CBB took over. It wasn't just academic casualties and the unfortunate case of Garrett Ueckman. It was police records and evaluation whiffs. All of those are on the uptick, or so it appears. Hard to know fully, as it is early as far as career-long trends go.

CBB clearly favors the long-term build, loads of bodies in the program recruited to the systems for when they are 21-23, not as true frosh.

[Wildhog]

To be clear, I didn't bring it up and I'm not really that worked up about it.  But also look at how many redshirts MSU has in their two-deep.  It's a big part of building depth.

[Fort Dweller]

Seniors

2014 Arkansas Razorbacks
NO NAME POS HT WT CLASS HOMETOWN

7 Tiquention Coleman LB 5-10 212 SR Mauldin, SC CBB recruit

11 AJ Derby TE 6-5 255 SR Iowa City, IA CBB recruit

21 Carroll Washington CB 6-0 185 SR Baltimore, MD CBB recruit

23 Tevin Mitchel CB 6-0 190 SR Mansfield, TX  2011

27 Alan Turner S 6-0 204 SR Junction City, AR  2010

34 Braylon Mitchell LB 6-3 235 SR North Little Rock, AR  2010

40 Patrick Arinze RB 5-10 257 SR La Mesa, CA Walk on

43 John Henson PK 5-11 172 SR Southlake, TX Walk on

47 Martrell Spaight LB 6-0 232 SR North Little Rock, AR CBB recruit

52 Daunte Carr LB 6-3 224 SR Gainesville, GA 2010

67 Johnathan McClure OL 6-4 330 SR Wichita, KS CBB recruit

70 Chris Stringer OT 6-7 331 SR Rancho Cucamonga, CA 2011 JUCO

74 Brey Cook G 6-7 322 SR Springdale, AR

82 Alan D'Appollonio LS 6-0 238 SR Phoenix, AZ Long Snapper

85 Demetrius Wilson WR 6-3 198 SR Glendale, AZ 2012 JUCO

86 Trey Flowers DE 6-4 268 SR Huntsville, AL

92 Sam Irwin-Hill PK 6-3 209 SR --


Some of these seniors were JC transfers and have not been in the program since 2010 0r 11. 

Doesn't really paint the picture that guy wanted huh?

[Wants2Win]

Who gives a crap about their non-conference schedule? They beat LSU in Baton Rouge and they beat Auburn. Even if they do lose a regular season game, that's still an 11-1 regular season in the SEC West and a top 5 ranking.

My point is that they are a very beatable #1 ranked team.

[Wants2Win]

So you think they are not very good?  Who do you think is better?  Who has a better resume?

Also- everyone's non-conference schedule is crap!  And if you play in the SEC West and it isn't crap you are dumb!  The conference schedule is more than challenging.  You don't need to boost your schedule here....

I think they are very good. I don't think they will run the table, however.

[Choctaw Hog]

Just in case you're referring to me because I posted the # of seniors for a few SEC teams, I stated out front that list didn't account for when they came into the program.

Nor do I really care to debate that point, because it's irrelevant.  No one knows how retention would have been had our coaching situation remained stable.  People can only SPECULATE... and will do so one way or another based on their agenda.

In regards to the NOW - if we were already slated to have a miserable season this year (as in doubtful to make a bowl), I would contend that if Bielema felt that strongly about 'building for the future' then there are numerous players that could have been stockpiled for later success.

Pretty sure I remember him saying something to the effect of 'I came here to win now' last year.

Oh and
You do that research and answer the question yourself.

I thought you might have it handy and would post it but I don't really care enough to spend 30 seconds researching it.

However, what I do know without any research is that no Petrino recruit that got kicked-off or transferred to another school went on to have a stellar football career.

[thefisher]

Danny West tweeted: 

@DannyWest1: MSU signed 28 players in 2010, 16 of them are playing as seniors. #Arkansas signed 25 in 2010, four of them are still here. #BobbysMess

EXFREAKINGACTLY! Absolutely spot on.

[Lake City Hog]

How many of you realize that BB's 5th year over half of his 1st class will be gone? His 1st and 2nd class will look VERY similar to Petrino's 2010 class in terms of numbers on the roster in the 5th year.

Why? Because Petrino was left in a very similar talent state when he got here and had to play a ton of Freshmen. And whether or not you choose to believe it, the talent level when he left was much better than when he got here.
Now, the talent did not fit the new philosophy and therefore didn't help much.

The whole point is that coaches do what they feel is best for the program right now. There are trade-offs and each coach must decide the route that he can live with. The secondary point that we should take into consideration is the value of 5th year seniors. That MSU class of 2010 was ranked #38, not exactly a world beater.

Just stop and think about Kirkland, Skipper, Koehler, Henry, Ellis and Collins as 5th year seniors. Then add in Ragnow, Wallace and Jackson as 4th year Juniors and think what a team that could have been.

[Atlhogfan1]

How many of you realize that BB's 5th year over half of his 1st class will be gone? His 1st and 2nd class will look VERY similar to Petrino's 2010 class in terms of numbers on the roster in the 5th year.

Why? Because Petrino was left in a very similar talent state when he got here and had to play a ton of Freshmen. And whether or not you choose to believe it, the talent level when he left was much better than when he got here.
Now, the talent did not fit the new philosophy and therefore didn't help much.

The whole point is that coaches do what they feel is best for the program right now. There are trade-offs and each coach must decide the route that he can live with. The secondary point that we should take into consideration is the value of 5th year seniors. That MSU class of 2010 was ranked #38, not exactly a world beater.

Just stop and think about Kirkland, Skipper, Koehler, Henry, Ellis and Collins as 5th year seniors. Then add in Ragnow, Wallace and Jackson as 4th year Juniors and think what a team that could have been.

That isn't why so few remained from Petrino's last classes. 

The talent and depth was not better defensively. 

If he had recruited well to his offense, we would have had better depth and the transition would not have been that drastic.  He left Walker and Williams as part of his efforts to recruit big backs to have a complimentary power running game.  If he had recruited well in the offensive line, we would have had olinemen ready to step in and block for a power run game while also having been developed to pass protect. 

[WoePigSooie]

Sounds similar to players at Louisville after Petrino left post-Orange Bowl.
It irked them so much they hired him back.
[/quote

#freemarquel sorta sums up the last of petrino's recruiting efforts.  Probably to worried about whether or not his girlfriend could make the trips.

Petrino has a defense because charlie strong wanted one.  See where that goes after two or so recruiting cycles.

And lastly, petrino was likely the best available coach Louisville could find after strong left and while he did them no favors in his earlier departure he didn't screw them over completely for some strange the way he did my alma mater.

[Gonzo]

Just to make sure I got this right, 2 1/2 years and 0-16 in the conference later, it's still all BP's fault?   Got it.  Let us know if/when anything ever belongs to the current staff.



Go Hogs! Beat MSU!

[Atlhogfan1]

This has to be repeated for those sensitive for Petrino, purged and re-registered under new usernames and one/two sentence hit and run posters:

It isn't all Petrino's fault.

He is one of the best offensive coaches in football. 

He is one of the best coaches our program has had.

"21-5" - We had two very good seasons with experienced defensive players who had to play before they were ready in 08 and 09 and rare qb's and wr's for our program.  Petrino managed to win a couple of the type of games Nutt couldn't - the 2010 LSU game to make the BCS and 2011 KSU game to finish in the top 5.  Good times we should remember fondly although 2011 had a few games that were way closer than they should have been.

Petrino is partially responsible for where we are and will continue to be with it declining as we go.  This would be the case no matter who replaced him. 

He would be in season 7 now with 0 SECW championships to this point had he remained our coach. 

Louisville rehired him because he is a great offensive coach and they are willing to take the risk again. 

Go Hogs!  Beat MSU!

[swinemaster]

How many of you realize that BB's 5th year over half of his 1st class will be gone? His 1st and 2nd class will look VERY similar to Petrino's 2010 class in terms of numbers on the roster in the 5th year.

Why? Because Petrino was left in a very similar talent state when he got here and had to play a ton of Freshmen. And whether or not you choose to believe it, the talent level when he left was much better than when he got here.
Now, the talent did not fit the new philosophy and therefore didn't help much.

The whole point is that coaches do what they feel is best for the program right now. There are trade-offs and each coach must decide the route that he can live with. The secondary point that we should take into consideration is the value of 5th year seniors. That MSU class of 2010 was ranked #38, not exactly a world beater.

Just stop and think about Kirkland, Skipper, Koehler, Henry, Ellis and Collins as 5th year seniors. Then add in Ragnow, Wallace and Jackson as 4th year Juniors and think what a team that could have been.

Funny, I don't remember Bielema watching the Cotton Bowl from the press box like CBP was when he was hired. 

We were pretty freaking far from a Cotton Bowl team when CBB took over.

[Choctaw Hog]

Sounds similar to players at Louisville after Petrino left post-Orange Bowl.
It irked them so much they hired him back.

Like an abused wife who keeps going back to here abusive husband. It's inexplicable and sometimes fatal. 

[Shorttimer]

I appreciate you trying (and miserably failing) to decipher my OP.  There is no NEED to "deflect" anything so I don't know what that even means.  The point is MSU has proven stability and giving a plan time builds depth and success.  I wish we were redshirting more now.  I have a strong feeling next year and year after we will more.  But those on here who want to run coaches off after 2 years are myopic.

Th

Totally wasted post.  You know why?  The people who want Bielema gone don't know what "myopic" means.

[The_Iceman]

Petrino's success was built upon his first two recruiting, which largely had a lot of instate talent in it...including a 5-star QB transfer (Mallett).

Regardless of what you think of him, if you look at his last three recruiting classes, there was about to be a major drop off. Talent at every position was slowly going down each year.

If Petrino would have stayed, a lot of people were going to be disappointed in the results of 2012...when some said we were a national title contender. Then 2013 was going to be even worse.

[Gonzo]

I'm not sure who is funnier, those who know for a fact things would have continued as is had BP stayed or those who know for a fact things would have tanked had BP stayed.   I wish I had the ability to know the hypothetical future.



Go Hogs! Beat MSU!

[Gonzo]

Funny, I don't remember Bielema watching the Cotton Bowl from the press box like CBP was when he was hired. 

We were pretty freaking far from a Cotton Bowl team when CBB took over.

If one is honest and admits that the entire foundation of the '07 Cotton Bowl team (McFadden, Jones, Hillis....the top 3 rushers and 3 of the top 4 receivers) departed, then one would realize BP didn't step into a Cotton Bowl level team, or pretty much any other bowl, any more than BB did.  But don't let that get in the way of a good diatribe.



Go Hogs! Beat MSU!

[hawg17]

I think they are very good. I don't think they will run the table, however.

I think this is the year that no one in the SEC runs the table. Everyone is going to get dinged by someone. I also think we will spoil someones year in the next few weeks. This is probably the closest i have seen it in terms of several teams being really good and a few more being just below them in terms of talent.Or maybe several teams are just really down and are at the level of the rest of the West.

[The_Iceman]

I'm not sure who is funnier, those who know for a fact things would have continued as is had BP stayed or those who know for a fact things would have tanked had BP stayed.   I wish I had the ability to know the hypothetical future.



Go Hogs! Beat MSU!

Tanked is a strong word. I don't think we would have ever missed a bowl with Petrino. But the SEC was about to get much tougher with a&m joining and some better coaches being hired around the league. Recruiting was picking up everywhere, and we were falling behind in that category.

[Gonzo]

Tanked is a strong word. I don't think we would have ever missed a bowl with Petrino. But the SEC was about to get much tougher with a&m joining and some better coaches being hired around the league. Recruiting was picking up everywhere, and we were falling behind in that category.

No matter how one dresses it up, no one knows what would have happened, but that doesn't hamper a myriad of definitive proclamations of what would have happened from both sides.  Anyone who claims to have any certainty about how it would have turned out is deluding themselves.


Go Hogs! Beat MSU!

[hogsanity]

I finally quit reading halfway through the 1st page. How can so many not see the point of the OP.  This point has been made by many people, on a national level, all season. MSU has 17 out of 22 starters ( at least when they played LSu ) that were either RS srs, srs or RS jrs, which means that 17 of the 22 starters came from either the 2010 or 2011 class. You think it does not make a difference to have 4th and 5th year players, at 22-23 yrs old playing against 1st and 2nd year players at 18-19 yrs old?

Arkansas only has that many Srs on the entire roster, and several of those play little or not at all. In 2013 AR either led or was second in # of Freshmen starting. BB would probably have liked to have RS them all, but he would not have been able to put a team on the field.  A major college team should NEVER have to start FR on either the Ol or DL, not even players as good as Skipper and Kirkland, yet the Hogs started 2 on the OL and 1 on the DL in 2013. 

[MountieDawg]

So for all that think CBB is building a monster, will you be upset if in year 4 or 5 we dont win 10 games?