BB+JC= Bad Fit

[Randy Johnson]

It's not a matter of what "anyone who has ever been around any sport knows."  It's a matter of paying attention to what's going on on the field. Georgia's defense was applying the same pressure with the same quickness it did in the first half. On the first offensive series the backside D-end was about to blindside Brandon Allen when J-Will stepped up and took the guy out, something he didn't do in the first half.

Later when both D-ends and both corners crashed on BA he got the ball off in 2.8 seconds to Hunter Henry for a TD. Clearly on that play Chaney (or Allen) anticipated the all out blitz and beat it with the right call.

People who refuse to give credit where credit is due have an agenda. That agenda is to make the worst out of every situation. Maximize the mistakes. Minimize the successes.

The good thing is this program is moving forward without those people.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

Wow really... Would love to hear how many snaps you took under center... And if you did I'd love to hear how you never had a turnover

I'm not going to gig CS for his T/O. That was heartbreaking at the time, but that is ancient history at this point.

Back to this team, in our last 3 games we have averaged 414 yards of total offense while the defense has limited those opponents to 379. Close. Better job than we have seen from our defense (overall) in a long time against ranked opponents.

But when your opponents throw one total INT and put the ball on the carpet 4 times, losing only 2 in a total of 3 games, while we throw 3 INT's and put the ball on the carpet 10 times, losing 5 of those, you aren't going to win very often. For those of you keeping count, that is 8 T/O's for us and only 3 for our opponents over 3 games.

We can debate all day long about whether there is a tug-of-war between Chaney and Bielema on how to execute the offensive scheme and at the end of the day, we will be no further along because none of us are sitting in on staff meetings where we might find the truth of the matter. But I can tell you that there is an argument to be made that we had our chances to, and perhaps should have won, all of our last three games, except for us shooting ourselves in the foot with key T/O's.

Stop the high number of T/O's and we will start winning again.

[bphi11ips]

I'm not going to gig CS for his T/O. That was heartbreaking at the time, but that is ancient history at this point.

Back to this team, in our last 3 games we have averaged 414 yards of total offense while the defense has limited those opponents to 379. Close. Better job than we have seen from our defense (overall) in a long time against ranked opponents.

But when your opponents throw one total INT and put the ball on the carpet 4 times, losing only 2 in a total of 3 games, while we throw 3 INT's and put the ball on the carpet 10 times, losing 5 of those, you aren't going to win very often. For those of you keeping count, that is 8 T/O's for us and only 3 for our opponents over 3 games.

We can debate all day long about whether there is a tug-of-war between Chaney and Bielema on how to execute the offensive scheme and at the end of the day, we will be no further along because none of us are sitting in on staff meetings where we might find the truth of the matter. But I can tell you that there is an argument to be made that we had our chances to, and perhaps should have won, all of our last three games, except for us shooting ourselves in the foot with key T/O's.

Stop the high number of T/O's and we will start winning again.

The team that makes the fewest mistakes will win. 

[Mike Irwin]

IMHO, the entire offense needs revamped if we're to ever win any SEC games.  Putting the line that tight together and running out of a one running back set simply doesn't make a lot of sense to me.  It worked in the three non conference games, but come SEC time, it hasn't worked at all.  Our running game seems to be very stagnant and practically non-existant right now.  I think Clint may be right. I see it as a case of two coaches not knowing how to run an offense right now.  And in a second year, that's totally inexcusable.

Last year through the first four SEC games Arkansas was averaging 12 points per game. This year it's 24 points per game. The rushing numbers are down slightly and that's due to two poor games from Alex Collins. J-Will has continued to perform so I doubt Collins' drop off has anything to do with Chaney and Bielema being a bad fit. It's likely due to Collins getting himself suspended for the first quarter of the Bama game. He's had two costly fumbles in the last two games. Bielema said both of them were a matter of Collins taking his eyes off the ball (and not a bad pitch as some on this board have alleged). The young man is clearly not focused right now.

What this tells me is that the passing game has improved a lot more than some on this board are willing to admit.

Again, the offense is a work in progress and when you double your scoring from one year to the next progress is being made.

[bphi11ips]

Last year through the first four SEC games Arkansas was averaging 12 points per game. This year it's 24 points per game. The rushing numbers are down slightly and that's due to two poor games from Alex Collins. J-Will has continued to perform so I doubt Collins' drop off has anything to do with Chaney and Bielema being a bad fit. It's likely due to Collins getting himself suspended for the first quarter of the Bama game. He's had two costly fumbles in the last two games. Bielema said both of them were a matter of Collins taking his eyes off the ball (and not a bad pitch as some on this board have alleged). The young man is clearly not focused right now.

What this tells me is that the passing game has improved a lot more than some on this board are willing to admit.

Again, the offense is a work in progress and when you double your scoring from one year to the next progress is being made.

Why don't you watch the play.

[Mike Irwin]

Why don't you watch the play.

If you're talking about Collins fumble I have watched it. Michael Smith (the former Hog RB) and I discussed it on the radio yesterday. He said as a back you want that pitch in your eyes, not your chest as some here have claimed. He said you want to catch it fingers up like a receiver catches a pass. It's harder to do that if you lower your hands.

Again Bielema said Collins took his eyes off the ball on both fumbled pitches. Theres no way he'd blame Collins if Brandon Allen were at fault.

[FATHAWG08]

this power game offense must mix in some screens & draws to keep defenses guessing. If the reason we don't do these things because we don't do these things well, then coach them up or find the lineman who can. Because if these lineman can't do these things how do they expect to play in the NFL.

[Hoggish1]

Richt adjusted after our first drive and our offense was stopped until the second half.

Hard to say that with all the miscues during the 2nd Q.  We actually screwed ourselves more than UGa stopping us.

[Hoggish1]

Short answer, Yes.

I'd like to see a longer answer for your assertion.

[bphi11ips]

If you're talking about Collins fumble I have watched it. Michael Smith (the former Hog RB) and I discussed it on the radio yesterday. He said as a back you want that pitch in your eyes, not your chest as some here have claimed. He said you want to catch it fingers up like a receiver catches a pass. It's harder to do that if you lower your hands.

Again Bielema said Collins took his eyes off the ball on both fumbled pitches. Theres no way he'd blame Collins if Brandon Allen were at fault.

Collins hasn't seemed to be himself against Alabama and Georgia.  Maybe it's the competition.  Maybe he's in a funk.  Who knows?  By all accounts, Collins is a great kid and a great ambassador for the University.  He's far from home.  He  could have played anywhere.  He could have been shredding Virginia Tech last night rather than trying to jam the ball up the gut of two of the best defensive fronts outside of the NFL two weeks in a row.  Yes, Jonathan Williams is playing extremely well.  Like someone auditioning for the opportunity to help his family in a big way very soon.  He's a stud.  He also fumbled against Georgia and we were lucky to get the ball back. 

Blaming Alex Collins for the problems with Chaney's offense is no different than blaming Brandon Allen, other than the QB has the greater responsibility for execution throughout the game.  The real issue being discussed here, for good reason, is Chaney's play selection.  Defend it if you like.  Your opinion is as valid as anyone else's.

I just watched the fumble in slow motion half a dozen times. The commentator noted the pitch hit Collins in the facemask.  He also said Collins seemed to think the play called for a handoff.  However, Collins was not set to take a handoff.  He was set for the pitch.  His hands were just below chest high.  The pitch was high.   Anyone who has ever played running back or QB or coached either position, except maybe Michael Smith, will tell you, after watching the play carefully in slow motion, that the pitch was high.  Anyone who has ever played the positions or coached will tell you Collins should have caught the pitch.  That is the running back's first and foremost responsibility, especially on his own goal line.  Take a loss.  Don't lay it on the ground.  They will also tell you the pitch was delivered high and the QB bears at least half of the responsibility for the fumble.   They will then fix it in practice.

I will guarantee you Bret Bielema and Jim Chaney aren't telling Brandon Allen and Alex Collins the fumble was all Collins' fault.  They're telling them both what they did wrong on the play.  Why everyone insists on babying Brandon Allen is a mystery to me.  He's doing some good things.  He's a decent QB.  He doesn't appear to have the freedom to do some things he may be capable of doing.  But he also makes mistakes.  Surprise.  I watched Peyton Manning miss a couple of wide open receivers last night.  The pitch was high. Get over and get off Collins back.       

[Wildhog]

I'm just tired of all the sideline routes when the middle of field is wide the frick open.  I mean, there's no one there. 

[code red]

Clint Stoerner said on the radio this morning the scheme is the problem with the UA offense and that BB and JC are a bad fit together. I have been saying it since last year(to friends and not on this board), but now that a football person says it, maybe people will pay attention. Chaney was only successful as a coordinator when he ran the spread. Even Urban Meyer modeled his offense after the offense Chaney ran at Purdue. It does not matter who runs his offense and how well it is executed because his PRO-STYLE offense is poorly designed all the way around no matter how you look at it. If Bielema keeps Chaney after this year he will not last past next year.

I was thinking the same thing last night.  On obvious run downs we always....ALWAYS run.... Beilima Ball.  Then we hit the panic button when we get down more than 1 TD.....Chaney Ball.  If....we don't win a SEC game look for Chaney to have to fall on the sword.  I hate to say this but if year 3 is a 1-2 SEC season win total...I think CBB is toast.

[Peter Porker]

I was thinking the same thing last night.  On obvious run downs we always....ALWAYS run.... Beilima Ball.  Then we hit the panic button when we get down more than 1 TD.....Chaney Ball.  If....we don't win a SEC game look for Chaney to have to fall on the sword.  I hate to say this but if year 3 is a 1-2 SEC season win total anything since I never liked him..I think hope CBB is toast.

FIFY since it's how you really feel.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

The pitch was high. Get over and get off Collins back.       

I'll go you one further. Why call a "pitch" when you are on your own 10 yard line? A play that requires more ball handling and "eye-hand" coordination than a simple hand-off?

And yes, if Collins had caught the pitch and ran 90 yards for a TD we wouldn't be having this conversation, but my response to that is that if the hole would have been there for him to run 90 yards on a pitch, the hole would have been there on a hand-off as well.

Nonetheless, with as much as we have been having an issue with fumbles, why take that chance deep in your own territory? I just thought that was a bad play selection on Chaney's part given the down/distance/field position situation. JMO

[Hoggish1]

Our opponents have scored from short fields or defensive scores many times already this season.  Part of it STs and much of it is offensive mistakes. 

[Hoggish1]

When you're a running team and your QB can't pass effectively under center, you might look like a bad OC.

This could be true and likely is.  We need to use the shotgun a little more and devise ways to run out of it.  Shouldn't be so hard to do.

[Hoggish1]

Joe Ferguson was the QB coach in 1997 under Danny Ford. So he was there for Stoerner's sophmore season. HDN arrived in 1998 and kept him on staff for three years.

Pretty sure Nutts only kept him on staff for two.  During the 2nd year, Nutts was fighting with him all the way...

[bphi11ips]

I'll go you one further. Why call a "pitch" when you are on your own 10 yard line? A play that requires more ball handling and "eye-hand" coordination than a simple hand-off?

And yes, if Collins had caught the pitch and ran 90 yards for a TD we wouldn't be having this conversation, but my response to that is that if the hole would have been there for him to run 90 yards on a pitch, the hole would have been there on a hand-off as well.

Nonetheless, with as much as we have been having an issue with fumbles, why take that chance deep in your own territory? I just thought that was a bad play selection on Chaney's part given the down/distance/field position situation. JMO

I completely agree that a pitch, much less a counter toss, is a risky play down 24-6 with your back against the goal line and 5:21 left to go in the first half against a team with Georgia's speed and athleticism.

On the other hand, the counter toss worked perfectly on the first drive.  If you want to see what the pitch and play are supposed to look like, watch the first drive.  We have the ball 2nd down and 6 at Georgia's 21.  Allen hits Williams right at the top of the numbers, where he can see the hole develop without taking his eyes off the ball.  The play goes for 11 yards. 

Now, I agree the trajectory of the pitch is different on a toss sweep, where the ball needs to lead the back where he can run into it without breaking stride.  But the toss Collins fumbled was misdirection straight up the middle.  Different deal. 

[Hoggish1]

Irwin, the game was NEVER close. The score was NO indicator of how close that game was.

It was a beat down pure and simple. Rick Schaeffer, the biggest sunshine pumper in our state said exactly the same thing as I just posted on AIR this week on Driveby Sports.

Evidently, I am not alone in being ridiculous.

I never said that Richt told his players to back down by way. But anyone who has ever been around any sport knows it is hard to keep players engaged while a blood letting is occurring.

So what you are saying is it was a beat down and then when we got closer and closer, UGa couldn't regain the beat down mentality? 

20+ gifted poits in the first half and a 26-7 differential in the 2nd half just does not support your agenda.

[Biggus Piggus]

Clint Stoerner said on the radio this morning the scheme is the problem with the UA offense and that BB and JC are a bad fit together. I have been saying it since last year(to friends and not on this board), but now that a football person says it, maybe people will pay attention. Chaney was only successful as a coordinator when he ran the spread. Even Urban Meyer modeled his offense after the offense Chaney ran at Purdue. It does not matter who runs his offense and how well it is executed because his PRO-STYLE offense is poorly designed all the way around no matter how you look at it. If Bielema keeps Chaney after this year he will not last past next year.

This is kinda totally idiotic.

[MS_HogFan]

There were several times where we pitched the ball to the RB when he was running right up the middle. I get why you pitch it to him when he runs outside but I don't understand the pitch if he is going to be running right beside the QB anyway.

I have seen other teams do this and I can't figure out why?

[Robert Shields]

There were several times where we pitched the ball to the RB when he was running right up the middle. I get why you pitch it to him when he runs outside but I don't understand the pitch if he is going to be running right beside the QB anyway.

I have seen other teams do this and I can't figure out why?

One reason is that a pitch makes the play happen faster and thus the line does not have to hold its blocks as long.  It also allows the running back to get up to speed much quicker.  The down side is that the ball is loose.  The pitch as several advantages, but you need a runningback that can handle it.

[bphi11ips]

There were several times where we pitched the ball to the RB when he was running right up the middle. I get why you pitch it to him when he runs outside but I don't understand the pitch if he is going to be running right beside the QB anyway.

I have seen other teams do this and I can't figure out why?

Other teams do it.  It's more common in the NFL than it is in college.  There are two reasons for it. 

First, it's a bit of misdirection.  When the defense sees the QB turn and make the pitch, their eyes are going to go to the edges.  When he spins left and tosses, all eyes look for the sweep right.  That's why it works best the first time you run it.  When Williams gained 11 cutting back over left guard on the first drive, I turned to my son and said "I love that play!".  Don't recall seeing it before this year.

The second reason is to get the ball to the back deeper in the backfield so he can see the hole develop.  It's a bit like the Wildcat in that the runner is reading the LB's looking for a seam. 

[Mike Irwin]

I will guarantee you Bret Bielema and Jim Chaney aren't telling Brandon Allen and Alex Collins the fumble was all Collins' fault. They're telling them both what they did wrong on the play.  Why everyone insists on babying Brandon Allen is a mystery to me.  He's doing some good things.  He's a decent QB.  He doesn't appear to have the freedom to do some things he may be capable of doing.  But he also makes mistakes.  Surprise.  I watched Peyton Manning miss a couple of wide open receivers last night.  The pitch was high. Get over and get off Collins back.       

Really? You guarantee it? How?  Based on conversations with Bielema or Chaney?

If Bret Bielema thought it was a bad pitch he would have said so. He didn't. If it was a mistake on both players part he would have said that. He specifically said that Collins took his eyes off the ball on both pitches. There is zero reason why he would say that if the pitch was bad or if the pitch were too high.

A coach blaming the wrong player for a mistake or protecting a player for a partial mistake loses his team. Players disrespect coaches that do that.

Plain and simple Bielema is smarter than that and he's also not that kind of a coach.

[MS_HogFan]

One reason is that a pitch makes the play happen faster and thus the line does not have to hold its blocks as long.  It also allows the running back to get up to speed much quicker.  The down side is that the ball is loose.  The pitch as several advantages, but you need a runningback that can handle it.

Other teams do it.  It's more common in the NFL than it is in college.  There are two reasons for it. 

First, it's a bit of misdirection.  When the defense sees the QB turn and make the pitch, their eyes are going to go to the edges.  When he spins left and tosses, all eyes look for the sweep right.  That's why it works best the first time you run it.  When Williams gained 11 cutting back over left guard on the first drive, I turned to my son and said "I love that play!".  Don't recall seeing it before this year.

The second reason is to get the ball to the back deeper in the backfield so he can see the hole develop.  It's a bit like the Wildcat in that the runner is reading the LB's looking for a seam. 

Thanks

[The_Iceman]

Really? You guarantee it? How?  Based on conversations with Bielema or Chaney?

If Bret Bielema thought it was a bad pitch he would have said so. He didn't. If it was a mistake on both players part he would have said that. He specifically said that Collins took his eyes off the ball on both pitches. There is zero reason why he would say that if the pitch was bad or if the pitch were too high.

A coach blaming the wrong player for a mistake or protecting a player for a partial mistake loses his team. Players disrespect coaches that do that.

Plain and simple Bielema is smarter than that and he's also not that kind of a coach.

But Mike, a Hogville poster guaranteed it?

[Ironhawg]

This could be true and likely is.  We need to use the shotgun a little more and devise ways to run out of it.  Shouldn't be so hard to do.

How about using the pistol formation instead of just straight shotgun?  If I understand it correctly, the whole purpose of the pistol is to give the offense multiple options including power runs?

[bphi11ips]

But Mike, a Hogville poster guaranteed it?

You and Mike Irwin are football gods and are never wrong.  Except when you are.  Like now.

[elksnort]

this power game offense must mix in some screens & draws to keep defenses guessing. If the reason we don't do these things because we don't do these things well, then coach them up or find the lineman who can. Because if these lineman can't do these things how do they expect to play in the NFL.

This is also a concern of mine.

[Mike Irwin]

You and Mike Irwin are football gods and are never wrong.  Except when you are.  Like now.

Michael Smith is wrong too even though he played that position and says flat out that the pitch was in the right place? BTW he had a reputation of having the best ball security of all the backs that played back then including D-Mac and Felix.

[The_Iceman]

Michael Smith is wrong too even though he played that position and says flat out that the pitch was in the right place? BTW he had a reputation of having the best ball security of all the backs that played back then including D-Mac and Felix.

No Mike, a 1,000 yard rusher in the SEC doesn't know what he is talking about. I am going to trust the anonymous poster on a message board.

[PorkerOinker]

You and Mike Irwin are football gods and are never wrong.  Except when you are.  Like now.

WRONG! That pitch was all on Collins. AC is kind of like Skipper to most Hogville posters now, he is untouchable. They do no wrong according to some of you, when you need to realize that these are two sophomores players, who no matter how highly recruited they were, they are going to make mistakes.

[yocdaddy]

I love how some people put more stock in what Clint Stoerner says than what Bielema or Chaney say.  Listen, I like Stoerner, but to think he knows more than either of the two coaches we're talking about here is absolutely asssssinine....

[bphi11ips]

Michael Smith is wrong too even though he played that position and says flat out that the pitch was in the right place? BTW he had a reputation of having the best ball security of all the backs that played back then including D-Mac and Felix.

Michael Smith is right, but Clint Stoerner is wrong?  Did you and Michael watch the play together in slow motion?  Did you compare it to the location of the pitch on the counter toss to Williams on the first drive?  Do they look the same to you?  Did I say above that Collins should have caught the pitch?  Were you party to every discussion the coaches have had with players concerning the fumble?

You have proven time and again that you will do backflips to defend the slightest criticism of anything Brandon Allen does.  You may have heard Bret Bielema say there was nothing wrong with the pitch, but if he said that he's mistaken or simply defending his QB, who, according to you, per Chaney, has a fragile psyche resulting from his terrifying experience against Alabama in 2012.  I give the kid more credit than that.

This isn't that big of a deal.  The QB made a slightly bad pitch.  One that was catchable.  The video shows it clearly.  But keep telling us, some of whom played and coached both positions for years, that we don't have a clue what we're looking at.

[Mike Irwin]

.....keep telling us, some of whom played and coached both positions for years, that we don't have a clue what we're looking at.

Uh, yeah. Okay. You guys played and coached quarterback and running back. That settles it.

[The_Iceman]

I've gone back and watched the pitch several times now. I can't see how anyone can say that was Brandon Allen's fault.

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=11722934

[PORKULATOR]

Not any mistake free GOOD football we haven't.



There was suppose to be a quote with that ?? ^^^

[bphi11ips]

I've gone back and watched the pitch several times now. I can't see how anyone can say that was Brandon Allen's fault.

Have you watched the first counter toss?  Hogs on Georgia 21 on the first drive.  Note the difference in where the two pitches hit the back.  One is at the top of the numbers.  The other is at the forehead. 

Note this - I never said the fumble was ALL Brandon's fault, it just wasn't ALL Collins' fault. 

[bphi11ips]

Uh, yeah. Okay. You guys played and coached quarterback and running back. That settles it.

Have you ever made or taken a pitch in your life, or taught anyone else to?

I have.  A few thousand times.   

[ricepig]

Uh, yeah. Okay. You guys played and coached quarterback and running back. That settles it.

I think a lawyer in Nashville knows more than any coach.......

[Mike Irwin]

Have you ever made or taken a pitch in your life, or taught anyone else to?

I have.  A few thousand times.   

Nope. I don't know you. I do know Michael Smith. I asked him because I wasn't sure. When he told me it was on Collins I pretty much accepted that. When Bielema said the same thing I really accepted it.

But hey, they don't have your experience on messages boards so as I said, that ends it.

[bphi11ips]

Nope. I don't know you. I do know Michael Smith. I asked him because I wasn't sure. When he told me it was on Collins I pretty much accepted that. When Bielema said the same thing I really accepted it.

But hey, they don't have your experience on messages boards so as I said, that ends it.

Nor do I have your experience defending QBs from Northwest Arkansas. 

[GuvHog]

Michael Smith is right, but Clint Stoerner is wrong?  Did you and Michael watch the play together in slow motion?  Did you compare it to the location of the pitch on the counter toss to Williams on the first drive?  Do they look the same to you?  Did I say above that Collins should have caught the pitch?  Were you party to every discussion the coaches have had with players concerning the fumble?

You have proven time and again that you will do backflips to defend the slightest criticism of anything Brandon Allen does.  You may have heard Bret Bielema say there was nothing wrong with the pitch, but if he said that he's mistaken or simply defending his QB, who, according to you, per Chaney, has a fragile psyche resulting from his terrifying experience against Alabama in 2012.  I give the kid more credit than that.

This isn't that big of a deal.  The QB made a slightly bad pitch.  One that was catchable.  The video shows it clearly.  But keep telling us, some of whom played and coached both positions for years, that we don't have a clue what we're looking at.

Come on now, that pitch was very catchable. The replay CLEARLY shows that Collins turned his head to look for a place to run BEFORE the ball arrived. Brandon has made some mistakes and bad plays but that one was on Collins.

[bphi11ips]

Come on now, that pitch was very catchable. The replay CLEARLY shows that Collins turned his head to look for a place to run BEFORE the ball arrived. Brandon has made some mistakes and bad plays but that one was on Collins.

Never said it wasn't "catchable".  Not the issue.  It was too high. 

[Mike Irwin]

Nor do I have your experience defending QBs from Northwest Arkansas.

Just one. Brandon Allen. I base that on what the coaches have told me.

You really need to put your hat in the ring when Bielema's job opens up. I know lawyers are well compensated but $ 2 million plus would be awfully attractive. Plus you could be the first Razorback coach to ever post on Hogville.

[GuvHog]

IMHO CBB needs to become a CEO/Overseer type coach, letting the coordinators run the Offense and defense.

[GuvHog]

Never said it wasn't "catchable".  Not the issue.  It was too high. 

That wasn't why Collins missed it.

[ricepig]

Take the test yourself.  Watch both pitches and tell me they look the same to you.  Even a rice farmer from Arkansas has eyes, I presume.  You may have even taken a pitch or two in your life for all I know. 

The pitch was good enough for it to been caught, thus the fault lies with the back. I said when it happened, and having watched it again, it was AC's fault, he took his eyes off of it looking to the right. It wasn't perfect, and BA's made a ton of mistakes of his own, but I'd put the blame 90/10 on AC.

[The_Iceman]

IMHO CBB needs to become a CEO/Overseer type coach, letting the coordinators run the Offense and defense.

That's what he does.

[ricepig]

That's what he does.

Some don't see the obvious......