Just plain ridiculous......

[GolfNut57]

This is just my two cents on the plight of Razorback football. FWIW, some of you are just plain ridiculous with your bashing of your team, your coaches, and of Jeff Long. Now I am a Red Wolf fan but I hang out on Hogville mainly for the golf forum and for the laughs every time this board melts down after each loss. But with that being said.....

Jeff Long had no choice in firing Petrino. The man flat out lied to Long and tried to cover it up. If YOU owned a company and your best employee did the same thing you would have to do the same as Long did. Sure your employee might make you a lot of money. But no one will want to do business with a company that has no integrity. And eventually your company would go broke.

Moving on to Bielema. Do those of you bashing him seriously expect him to beat top ten teams in his SECOND YEAR after the mess the program was left in by his predecessors? If you did you have unrealistic expectations. You got to give the man at least four years. Time enough for his first recruiting class to become seniors. Then if he is still failing you can rightfully cut him loose.

Now as for Brandon Allen. He should get the same pass as the Coach. Allen is having to play against those same top ten teams and it is stupid to think he can succeed with the team as it is currently constructed when it was left in shambles by Smith and Petrino. Give him enough better players as teammates and he will be a better QB for your team.

Here's my question. Next year when your team starts having more success, are the bashers going to just disappear into the woodwork? Or are you just going to hang around and pretend you never uttered one hateful word about your team and athletic staff?

[ceegar]

I like your Attitude

[PorkSoda]

[JaketheSnake]

Many agree, but each village has their idiots...

This is just my two cents on the plight of Razorback football. FWIW, some of you are just plain ridiculous with your bashing of your team, your coaches, and of Jeff Long. Now I am a Red Wolf fan but I hang out on Hogville mainly for the golf forum and for the laughs every time this board melts down after each loss. But with that being said.....

Jeff Long had no choice in firing Petrino. The man flat out lied to Long and tried to cover it up. If YOU owned a company and your best employee did the same thing you would have to do the same as Long did. Sure your employee might make you a lot of money. But no one will want to do business with a company that has no integrity. And eventually your company would go broke.

Moving on to Bielema. Do those of you bashing him seriously expect him to beat top ten teams in his SECOND YEAR after the mess the program was left in by his predecessors? If you did you have unrealistic expectations. You got to give the man at least four years. Time enough for his first recruiting class to become seniors. Then if he is still failing you can rightfully cut him loose.

Now as for Brandon Allen. He should get the same pass as the Coach. Allen is having to play against those same top ten teams and it is stupid to think he can succeed with the team as it is currently constructed when it was left in shambles by Smith and Petrino. Give him enough better players as teammates and he will be a better QB for your team.

Here's my question. Next year when your team starts having more success, are the bashers going to just disappear into the woodwork? Or are you just going to hang around and pretend you never uttered one hateful word about your team and athletic staff?

[GolfnHog]

ahhh the sounds of crickets! +1 golfnut57

[HogFanatic]

Shut the hell up.

You admitted explicitly this is a troll thread when you said you hang around for the meltdowns when the Hogs lose.

Be gone, please.

Moderators worth their salt should show this guy the door.

[JaketheSnake]

He might not be a "Hog fan" but he brought more understanding than most on this board have over the past few weeks.  It's not always bad to get an outside view

Shut the hell up.

You admitted explicitly this is a troll thread when you said you hang around for the meltdowns when the Hogs lose.

Be gone, please.

Moderators worth their salt should show this guy the door.

[HogFanatic]

He might not be a "Hog fan" but he brought more understanding than most on this board have over the past few weeks.  It's not always bad to get an outside view

If you cannot spot a troll, you cannot combat a troll.

[hobhog]

He might not be a "Hog fan" but he brought more understanding than most on this board have over the past few weeks.  It's not always bad to get an outside view

Exactly

[hobhog]

If you cannot spot a troll, you cannot combat a troll.

Hard to see the picture when inside the frame...

[Science Fiction Greg]

Great, an Arkansas State fan is showing more sense than most people on this message board.

Just freaking sigh.

[HogFanatic]

Any one of you pukes defending anything an Arkansas State fan has to say need to be shown the door too.

[Science Fiction Greg]

You're ridiculous.

[HogFanatic]

You're ridiculous.
[/quote

Yep.

[Wants2Win]

Yea...it's best to not question what has happened in just 3 short years. Just keep giving money and like it.

[rude1]

He might not be a "Hog fan" but he brought more understanding than most on this board have over the past few weeks.  It's not always bad to get an outside view

This is so predictable, anyone who puts together any kind of post that paints the patience and all is well mantra will be heralded as a piece of genius writing. If you start a post pointing out troubling problems, you are a troll stirring the pot.

[Science Fiction Greg]

This is so predictable, anyone who puts together any kind of post that paints the patience and all is well mantra will be heralded as a piece of genius writing. If you start a post pointing out troubling problems, you are a troll stirring the pot.

That's because it's true.  Rebuilds take time.  Some of us have gone through it multiple times and know how many hidden challenges there are.  For example, have you ever heard the phrase "iron sharpens iron?"  It applies here because when you have a system that's been in place for years, you have experienced players with lots of skill developed in that system over the years, and the younger players are competing and practicing with those players every day, all year.  When you are in a total rebuild, you don't have that.  Even in year 2.  Even in year 3, actually.  Remember, that you are competing against teams that DO have this.

This is why consistency over time matters.  It isn't just an excuse.  Heck it isn't even the only reason.  It's just one example of things people don't think about when considering a rebuild, but if you've ever been through one, you know it all too well.  You have no advantages and every disadvantage.

Don't forget, too, for example, there are players on the team that will NEVER buy in fully.  They can put on the faces, say the right things, but they weren't recruited by this staff for this system and they know it.  This literally infects the team.  And nothing can be done about it until they are gone.  Sometimes you have the luxury of dumping those players, sometimes you don't (or you won't have a team on the field at all).  In some sense, the rebuild doesn't even actually begin until all the previous players are gone.  I'm in year 16 at my current program.  Some of the bad things that I inherited were still being passed down in my 8th year, despite my best efforts to eliminate them.  Bad habits and attitudes are absolutely infectious (as this site can attest) and they were being passed through the program even after the original group was long gone.

Generally the divide is among people that know what it means to rebuild a team and those that haven't got the slightest freaking clue what all it entails.  I have done it multiple times.  It is very easy to tell which others on this board have, too, and even easier to see which ones have not only never been through it, but have probably never been near a locker room since junior high school.

[Wants2Win]

So tell me again why JL hired a coach with a completely different coaching philosophy? This question is never brought up. Always "we need 5 years!! We need 5 years!!"...I simply ask why?

[Science Fiction Greg]

So tell me again why JL hired a coach with a completely different coaching philosophy? This question is never brought up. Always "we need 5 years!! We need 5 years!!"...I simply ask why?

Best available.  Simple as that.  The team is being rebuilt the right way.  This rebuild would've been no faster with any other coaching staff without the last name Petrino, incidentally.  Any staff needs time.

[rude1]

That's because it's true.  Rebuilds take time.  Some of us have gone through it multiple times and know how many hidden challenges there are.  For example, have you ever heard the phrase "iron sharpens iron?"  It applies here because when you have a system that's been in place for years, you have experienced players with lots of skill developed in that system over the years, and the younger players are competing and practicing with those players every day, all year.  When you are in a total rebuild, you don't have that.  Even in year 2.  Even in year 3, actually.  Remember, that you are competing against teams that DO have this.

This is why consistency over time matters.  It isn't just an excuse.  Heck it isn't even the only reason.  It's just one example of things people don't think about when considering a rebuild, but if you've ever been through one, you know it all too well.  You have no advantages and every disadvantage.

Don't forget, too, for example, there are players on the team that will NEVER buy in fully.  They can put on the faces, say the right things, but they weren't recruited by this staff for this system and they know it.  This literally infects the team.  And nothing can be done about it until they are gone.  Sometimes you have the luxury of dumping those players, sometimes you don't (or you won't have a team on the field at all).  In some sense, the rebuild doesn't even actually begin until all the previous players are gone.  I'm in year 16 at my current program.  Some of the bad things that I inherited were still being passed down in my 8th year, despite my best efforts to eliminate them.  Bad habits and attitudes are absolutely infectious (as this site can attest) and they were being passed through the program even after the original group was long gone.

Generally the divide is among people that know what it means to rebuild a team and those that haven't got the slightest freaking clue what all it entails.  I have done it multiple times.  It is very easy to tell which others on this board have, too, and even easier to see which ones have not only never been through it, but have probably never been near a locker room since junior high school.

You seen any rebuilds that started 0-12 in conference play? Can you think of any coaching staff that recovered from such a start to turn a program around?

[Wants2Win]

Best available.  Simple as that.  The team is being rebuilt the right way.  This rebuild would've been no faster with any other coaching staff without the last name Petrino, incidentally.  Any staff needs time.

Define right way...I see this a lot as well. What does it mean?

[JaketheSnake]

This is so predictable, anyone who puts together any kind of post that paints the patience and all is well mantra will be heralded as a piece of genius writing. If you start a post pointing out troubling problems, you are a troll stirring the pot.

Theres a big difference between "pointing out troubling problems" and doin what many on here have been doing.  And it seems okay for those that may agree with you (the chick from above) to do the same as you bash others for. 

[HogFanatic]

Don't forget, too, for example, there are players on the team that will NEVER buy in fully.  They can put on the faces, say the right things, but they weren't recruited by this staff for this system and they know it.  This literally infects the team.  And nothing can be done about it until they are gone.

^^This above is the next excuse for people who are too enamored by the progress they HAVE seen to overlook the fact that Arkansas is now in the throes of it's worst conference streak in school history.

It's the players.

Sure, guys like this (some dude who's avatar illustrates someone staring at a chess board) is smart enough to fool most people into thinking he is being all logical about things, but this entire post is nothing but an excuse to bash players.

NO.

What *I* see is a team that BEAT both Texas A&M *and* Alabama in back-to-back weeks, but was unable to seal the deal (beat is obviously not meant literally here, as Arkansas beat both teams in nearly every measurable stat except the one that mattered and lost both in heartbreaking fashion), and then got blown out the next week against a "beatable opponent" (nationally recognized, and Hogville Approved weak Mark Richt's georgia bulldogs). (SEC East = Weak, Mark Richt = underachiever)...

Again, this entire post was sunshine pumpin' to the extreme disguised in intellectualism.

[Science Fiction Greg]

You seen any rebuilds that started 0-12 in conference play? Can you think of any coaching staff that recovered from such a start to turn a program around?

I cannot stress to you enough that the record is absolutely irrelevant this year and last year.  Being hung up on the record is literally looking at the wrong thing.  I know it seems like that's what you should do because results are all that matters.  But it's just not.  It absolutely doesn't matter what the record is this year or last year.  You should absolutely start to see the team taking shape from the coaching in the third year.  If you don't see clear progress in the wins column, then, I'm on board.  Time to start worrying.

Personally I would say installation of the "system" progresses like this:

Year 1: 5% new staff, 95% previous staff (in our case, total trash--demolished by JLS...would say foundation was very good from Petrino before that)
Year 2: 20% new staff, 80% previous staff
Year 3: 60% new staff, 40% previous
Year 4: 90% new staff, 10% previous
Year 5: 98%

trending upwards to 100%

Yes, there is still a small percentage of stuff that carries over even after everyone has graduated.  The ones on campus in year 5 learned some stuff from the ones before them from the previous staff.  I know this from experience.

Year 2 to 3 is a big jump.  I have seen this pretty consistently.  Yes it is possible to get ahead of that schedule if you are in a good situation or if the previous staff was very good, had some good points you can build from, or you are just lucky, etc.

[Science Fiction Greg]

Define right way...I see this a lot as well. What does it mean?

There's a post from Mike Irwin that exhibits what I mean perfectly.  Read his posts more.

[Science Fiction Greg]

^^This above is the next excuse for people who are too enamored by the progress they HAVE seen to overlook the fact that Arkansas is now in the throes of it's worst conference streak in school history.

It's the players.

Sure, guys like this (some dude who's avatar illustrates someone staring at a chess board) is smart enough to fool most people into thinking he is being all logical about things, but this entire post is nothing but an excuse to bash players.

NO.

What *I* see is a team that BEAT both Texas A&M *and* Alabama in back-to-back weeks, but was unable to seal the deal (beat is obviously not meant literally here, as Arkansas beat both teams in nearly every measurable stat except the one that mattered and lost both in heartbreaking fashion), and then got blown out the next week against a (nationally recognized, and Hogville Approved weak Mark Richt's georgia bulldogs). (SEC East = Weak, Mark Richt = underachiever)...

Again, this entire post was sunshine pumpin' to the extreme disguised in intellectualism.

^^ This post is an excellent example of someone that has no clue what the heck they are talking about.  Sorry, it's a pretty unavoidable conclusion from reading your nonsense.

And it has nothing to do with being smart.  It has to do with been through it multiple times, watched others do it multiple times.  Rebuilds suck and take time.

There's a reason people say it will take x years and the athletic director has been pretty clear he's going to give it.  And it isn't because they are clueless.  They are experienced.

Seriously, you guys should take just a second and think about why it is that pretty much anyone experienced in this area strongly disagrees with you.  There's a reason, and it's not that we irrationally love Bielema.  I love what he's doing here, but I didn't until I saw it happening.  I basically didn't know how he did things at all before he was here.

[jlhogfan]

Define right way...I see this a lot as well. What does it mean?

It means you have to use the word "foundation" or "building" in your post.  You don't have to necessarily say a "foundation for what" or "building a whatever", just use the words. 

[rude1]

I cannot stress to you enough that the record is absolutely irrelevant this year and last year.  Being hung up on the record is literally looking at the wrong thing.  I know it seems like that's what you should do because results are all that matters.  But it's just not.  It absolutely doesn't matter what the record is this year or last year.  You should absolutely start to see the team taking shape from the coaching in the third year.  If you don't see clear progress in the wins column, then, I'm on board.  Time to start worrying.

Personally I would say installation of the "system" progresses like this:

Year 1: 5% new staff, 95% previous staff (in our case, total trash--demolished by JLS...would say foundation was very good from Petrino before that)
Year 2: 20% new staff, 80% previous staff
Year 3: 60% new staff, 40% previous
Year 4: 90% new staff, 10% previous
Year 5: 98%

trending upwards to 100%

Yes, there is still a small percentage of stuff that carries over even after everyone has graduated.  The ones on campus in year 5 learned some stuff from the ones before them from the previous staff.  I know this from experience.

Year 2 to 3 is a big jump.  I have seen this pretty consistently.  Yes it is possible to get ahead of that schedule if you are in a good situation or if the previous staff was very good, had some good points you can build from, or you are just lucky, etc.

So I take that as a NO, you can't think of any successful program rebuilds that began with the staff losing 12 straight conference games. It's ok, I can't think of any either.

[Wants2Win]

I would have to say that your record matters...greatly so. Recruits needed to turn this thing around see the record.

[Wants2Win]

It means you have to use the word "foundation" or "building" in your post.  You don't have to necessarily say a "foundation for what" or "building a whatever", just use the words.

Got it. Thanks for the clarification.

[Science Fiction Greg]

So I take that as a NO, you can't think of any successful program rebuilds that began with the staff losing 12 straight conference games. It's ok, I can't think of any either.

You can take that as an "it's irrelevant so I didn't waste any of my time trying to think of any."  If it matters to you, look it up.  It doesn't matter to me and I'm not here to do your homework.

[HogFanatic]

^^ This post is an excellent example of someone that has no clue what the heck they are talking about.  Sorry, it's a pretty unavoidable conclusion from reading your nonsense.

And it has nothing to do with being smart.  It has to do with been through it multiple times, watched others do it multiple times.  Rebuilds suck and take time.

You sunshine pumpers make it sound like Bobby Petrino and JLS literally bombed the team's bus on their way out the door.

This team is still laden with talent, whether you want to admit it or not.
A one point loss to Alabama is my evidence.

I see coaching deficiencies cropping up all over the place, and if you would take the time to review my history, you will find that I am an ardent Bielema supporter.

Please tell me again why we have the best PK in America on redshirt??

[hammer66]

Bill Snyder @ KState. He's done it twice at KState, although the 2nd time was a lot easier.
By the way, Coach B has worked with Snyder and openly speaks about how Snyder had to build KState from the absolute worst program in the entire NCAA to what it is now.

[elksnort]

Be pissed about the A&M game and some sketchy offensive production. Not much else     

[JaketheSnake]

So I take that as a NO, you can't think of any successful program rebuilds that began with the staff losing 12 straight conference games. It's ok, I can't think of any either.

Who was the last coach that started rebuilding after a coach, that admittedly Didnt care about defense, got himself fired in April so there were no decent coaches available and we had to hire from within without a decent option to lead the program for a year (which also meant recruiting)?  That coach was the last to start the rebuild 0-12

[Science Fiction Greg]

You sunshine pumpers make it sound like Bobby Petrino and JLS literally bombed the team's bus on their way out the door.

This team is still laden with talent, whether you want to admit it or not.
A one point loss to Alabama is my evidence.

I see coaching deficiencies cropping up all over the place, and if you would take the time to review my history, you will find that I am an ardent Bielema supporter.

Please tell me again why we have the best PK in America on redshirt??

I specifically said the team was in fine shape after Petrino.  I specifically said JLS carpet bombed the crap out of it.  A lot of the talent (not all of it!) that was developed in Petrino's system left the team after Petrino's last year and then JLS's last year.  What was left only had a short time with Petrino, and in lots of cases, equal time with Petrino and JLS.

Disaster.

I don't disagree that there is some talent left here, but again, it's that not fully developed talent + holdover from an old system/not fully bought into new system crew that we are relying on in that group (cue whining about player bashing and my accompanying eye roll).

And to be honest, I have no idea about the kicking situation.

[Wants2Win]

Bill Snyder @ KState. He's done it twice at KState, although the 2nd time was a lot easier.
By the way, Coach B has worked with Snyder and openly speaks about how Snyder had to build KState from the absolute worst program in the entire NCAA to what it is now.

Funny..didn't we just beat them in a bowl not long ago? Or did I dream that? Seems so long ago.

[BadHog]

Now I am a Red Wolf fan but I hang out on Hogville mainly for the golf forum and for the laughs every time this board melts down after each loss

Then don't come on MMQ and tell us "HOG FANS" how we should feel!

Oh, and you also do not know the entire story about the Petrino firing. Long lied when he said he knew nothing about the incident until Thursday. THAT is a BOLD FACED LIE. So Petrino ain't the only liar here.

Long deserves all the bashing he gets on here and more.

[JaketheSnake]

What were his stats in fall practice compared to our other kickers? 

You sunshine pumpers make it sound like Bobby Petrino and JLS literally bombed the team's bus on their way out the door.

This team is still laden with talent, whether you want to admit it or not.
A one point loss to Alabama is my evidence.

I see coaching deficiencies cropping up all over the place, and if you would take the time to review my history, you will find that I am an ardent Bielema supporter.

Please tell me again why we have the best PK in America on redshirt??

[Wants2Win]

Who was the last coach that started rebuilding after a coach, that admittedly Didnt care about defense, got himself fired in April so there were no decent coaches available and we had to hire from within without a decent option to lead the program for a year (which also meant recruiting)?  That coach was the last to start the rebuild 0-12

It's like you think all of that was destined to happen. No one had any control over anything.

[rude1]

You can take that as an "it's irrelevant so I didn't waste any of my time trying to think of any."  If it matters to you, look it up.  It doesn't matter to me and I'm not here to do your homework.

Oh ok, let's not dare look at this objectively and put it in some kind of historical perspective to get an idea the hill that must be climbed. It is much better to stick one's head in the sand and BELIEVE.

[Wants2Win]

Be pissed about the A&M game and some sketchy offensive production. Not much else     

Failure to kick PATs?

[Science Fiction Greg]

Oh ok, let's not dare look at this objectively and put it in some kind of historical perspective to get an idea the hill that must be climbed. It is much better to stick one's head in the sand and BELIEVE.

Make no mistake.  I am looking at it objectively.  I just know (notice, I said know, not think, not believe, know) that looking at win/loss records is not the criterion to look at.

[JaketheSnake]

It's like you think all of that was destined to happen. No one had any control over anything.

Fo reals? 

[HF#1]

You seen any rebuilds that started 0-12 in conference play? Can you think of any coaching staff that recovered from such a start to turn a program around?

You see any rebuilds that have played the schedule we have played the last 12 games?  You realize Mississippi State hasn't lost a game since they beat us last year?  Think about that for a second, MISSISSIPPI STATE...

[HogFanatic]

And to be honest, I have no idea about the kicking situation.

Well then "checkmate", because with the best PK in the country we are staring at 5-2 and a bowl birth this weekend against an overwhelmed team in UAB.

7 or 8 wins would be likely from where I sit. Possibly 10.

[rude1]

Make no mistake.  I am looking at it objectively.  I just know (notice, I said know, not think, not believe, know) that looking at win/loss records is not the criterion to look at.

You are right, looking at wins and losses is not the thing to look at if you are wanting to not have your faith shaken.

[Science Fiction Greg]

You see any rebuilds that have played the schedule we have played the last 12 games?  You realize Mississippi State hasn't lost a game since they beat us last year?  Think about that for a second, MISSISSIPPI STATE...

This is also very true.  We are climbing a mountain right now, and we just started out.  And the number of people griping that we aren't at the top right now is amazing.  Please consider for a second that to have success against our schedule, we absolutely must already be at the top.

Then consider that we're actually competing extremely well with those teams from where we actually are.

[Science Fiction Greg]

Well then "checkmate", because with the best PK in the country we are staring at 5-2 and a bowl birth this weekend against an overwhelmed team in UAB.

7 or 8 wins would be likely from where I sit. Possibly 10.

Agree.  In year 2 of our rebuild, we are a place-kicker away from 5-2.  Phenomenal progress.   Hope it continues.

[BadHog]

Be pissed about the A&M game and some sketchy offensive production. Not much else     

Yes and
Some sketchy offensive play calling.
Sketchy special teams execution.
Sketchy penalties (i.e. personal fouls)