Help Me Understand The Expectation

[12247]

I have been reading a lot today on Hogville and I haven't read one thread or post demanding the HC be fired.  Please don't jump to conclusions.  Complaining about our shortcomings is our right as is your Rainbow Stew approach to what is going right.

[ErieHog]

And if the reasons you didn't get those projects that take you to the break even point ranged from the project team showing up for the final bid presentation with the wrong presentation to the team leader getting drunk and missing the presentation, you would be pissed.

And nothing like *any* of those things have happened.    What is wrong with you people?

This is supposed to be a very bad football team-- 3 wins, 4 wins.  Optimistic end, 5 wins.    It is playing well above what they should be at this point. 

[hawgon]

And nothing like *any* of those things have happened.    What is wrong with you people?

This is supposed to be a very bad football team-- 3 wins, 4 wins.  Optimistic end, 5 wins.    It is playing well above what they should be at this point.

Dumb penalties, dumb fumbles, and a kicking game worse than the average 5A Texas high school are EXACTLY those kind of things.  Inexcusable and not the mark of a well coached team.

[Bubba's Bruisers]

And nothing like *any* of those things have happened.    What is wrong with you people?

This is supposed to be a very bad football team-- 3 wins, 4 wins.  Optimistic end, 5 wins.    It is playing well above what they should be at this point. 

I agree, but who determines what we were supposed to be?

[hobhog]

I have been reading a lot today on Hogville and I haven't read one thread or post demanding the HC be fired.  Please don't jump to conclusions.  Complaining about our shortcomings is our right as is your Rainbow Stew approach to what is going right.

Darksider motto

[ErieHog]

I agree, but who determines what we were supposed to be?

Generally, the people inside the game have a good idea.   What have other SEC coaches had to say about the state of our program?

"Keep in mind, Bret didn't inherit much. The recruiting transition from Petrino leaving to John L. Smith for a year was never going to be smooth. There were guys on that roster they wouldn't have taken when he was at Wisconsin. So he needs time to get that done. But they need a boost at the skill positions, such as receiver and cornerback. They just don't have a lot of playmaking there."

"They will continue to struggle a little bit. They should be better but continuing to struggle."

Two years ago:

"They are going to be terrible. What they are doing now, it's the product of bad recruiting. They have a long way to go. That's nothing against the new coach (Bret Bielema). But they are going to be terrible in Year 1." ...

"They are really going to struggle. What happened was they had eight starters who got injured, and they were fighting an uphill battle all of last year. I think they'll struggle up front, they'll struggle in the secondary, the linebackers should be average." ...

"They are going to be slim in a lot of spots. It's going to take them three years to get a good foundation. It's a product of bad recruiting — which is typical of a Bobby Petrino school. It's the same thing that happened at Louisville that got Steve Kragthorpe fired. Petrino didn't leave him any players. It's the same thing at Arkansas. They have no players on defense. Petrino would load up on offense and leave the cupboard bare. That's why he can't ever get over the hump." ...

"If you want to be competitive in the SEC, you better have big, strong defensive linemen, physical guys, and lockdown corners. If you don't have that, you don't have a chance. And right now they don't have that." -

[Fort Dweller]

You cannot understand fanatics.  The whole thing is emotional and excessive.

[Bubba's Bruisers]

You cannot understand fanatics.  The whole thing is emotional and excessive.

Emotion and excessiveness are what fills the AD's coffers.

[Fort Dweller]

Emotion and excessiveness are what fills the AD's coffers.

OP asked for understanding.  You cant understand fans.  It's impossible.  Just read the exchange between Erie and hawgon.  Hawgon is saying we aren't any good.  Erie says he knows and that our ceiling for the team, at the beginning of the year, was likely 5-7 due to us being a bad team.  Hawgon responds "well, yeah.  And we do this bad and this bad and this bad.  It's not a good team."

It's a damn argument with someone telling him the same thing.  Only difference is Erie is emotionless.

[ErieHog]

OP asked for understanding.  You cant understand fans.  It's impossible.  Just read the exchange between Erie and hawgon.  Hawgon is saying we aren't any good.  Erie says he knows and that our ceiling for the team, at the beginning of the year, was likely 5-7 due to us being a bad team.  Hawgon responds "well, yeah.  And we do this bad and this bad and this bad.  It's not a good team."

It's a damn argument with someone telling him the same thing.  Only difference is Erie is emotionless.

Heh.   A broken remote, a broken potted plant, and possibly a broken toe leave my wife shaking her head in disagreement.

[hawgon]

OP asked for understanding.  You cant understand fans.  It's impossible.  Just read the exchange between Erie and hawgon.  Hawgon is saying we aren't any good.  Erie says he knows and that our ceiling for the team, at the beginning of the year, was likely 5-7 due to us being a bad team.  Hawgon responds "well, yeah.  And we do this bad and this bad and this bad.  It's not a good team."

It's a damn argument with someone telling him the same thing.  Only difference is Erie is emotionless.

Actually, no, we're a darned good team that invents reasons to lose a game.  The Auburn game is the only game this year that the other team has beaten us.  That makes it all the more frustrating.  We are a well conceived and put together team that is poorly coached in the fundamentals.

[Fort Dweller]

Actually, no, we're a darned good team that invents reasons to lose a game.  The Auburn game is the only game this year that the other team has beaten us.  That makes it all the more frustrating.  We are a well conceived and put together team that is poorly coached in the fundamentals.

I think we're on the verge of a darned good defense.  I think we're still a step away on the offense (o-line depth and WR).

[Fort Dweller]

Heh.   A broken remote, a broken potted plant, and possibly a broken toe leave my wife shaking her head in disagreement.

Eriebot should know better.

[S.A.D.C]

S.A.D.C., I don't agree we were just a 2 or 3 plays from winning either game.  By the 4th quarter of both the A&M and BAMA games, we were owned on O and D.  And I submit to you that neither of these teams is really good.  I said 3 weeks ago that A&M was not top 10, not even top 15 and as it turns out I was wrong, they are worse.  BAMA is a shell of the typical BAMA.  Horrible mistakes, no QB, no path on offense, too many mistakes everywhere.  BAMA is maybe a 8,9 or 10 team at this point, maybe. 

We are far better than last season and actually pretty good and would likely win some conference games if not in the SEC west.  But we are there by choice.  I don't believe there is a great team in college football right now.  Baylor and Notre Dame won basketball games last night, OU barely won against TX and only played offense for one half, GA without their best player killed MO., ORE beat a respectable UCLA pretty good and Miss ST beat Aubbie and had 4 turnovers.  So the #1 team in the nation had 4 turnovers and beat another top 5 team by more than 2 TDs.  So who is playing real championship football right now.  No one, thats who.

Well- I still believe we were only a couple plays away in both games.  But agree completely with everything else.  Bama and A/M are NOT very good and A/M might not even be good.  It is a very even playing field out there.

Challenge for Arkansas is- if you want to go over .500 in this division you have to be a Top 10 team.  We certainly are not that.  To me what makes this rebuilding so difficult isn't how low it was when BB came- it is how high you have to build it to notice a change.  This division is a lot tougher than it was even 3 years ago. Bama/LSU might be down a notch or 5 but everyone else is MUCH better....

[Boardon Hamsay]

I still think we get one of the big boys left on our schedule... Don't ask me who though...

If I had to pick the big boy to upset, I'd probably go with Ole Miss. Their D is great but we get them at home and with the Egg Bowl looming the following week for them, it shapes up to be a huge trap game for them.

[hawgon]

Ever have an employee who was great about 95% of the time, but every so often would do something so inconceivably dumb that you just felt like you couldn't trust him?  He was great, a great guy, and worked awesome but you felt that if you left him alone for very long you might come back and the office would be burned down because he started a campfire in the break room or something like that?

That is sort of how I feel about Bielema.  He has done an excellent job putting this team together.  I do admit now, that his plan could work.  Defensively, we are playing better than we have in years.  But once a game, or at least once every couple games, he does something completely unfathomable.  The reverse on the six or seven yard line against Tech that resulted in a fumble when we were gashing them for about five yards a pop is a good example.  Saturday night the play where we sent the punter under center when we were on our own 20 something yard line and it was 4th and 6 is another.

Who thinks those are good ideas?  Do they discuss those in meetings and say, "This is really going to throw them for a loop"?  How does anyone think those are good ideas in meetings MUCH LESS call them in games.  That kind of stuff is right up there with Houston Nutt going for it on our own twenty something on our second possession against South Carolina in 2005 and other assorted ridiculousness.

[demonHOG1013]

Ford went 4-7, 4-7 and Nutt came in and won 9 his first year. Petrino went 8-5 with a bowl victory after Nutt had fractured the fanbase like never before. Also, like CBB while implementing a completely new system. In neither of those other scenarios, did AR finish in the top 5 just 2 years prior. 0-8 should never be acceptable at ANY school in the SEC. Thank God Franklin is no longer at Vandy, or else AR would be the worst football program in the SEC the last 1 1/2 years. I am a big fan of CBB the man, just have my doubts about CBB the coach. I hope I'm wrong.

I hope CBB doesn't get the same treatment as Danny Ford.  Ford took over after the debacle that was left after Jack Crowe and got all of the players Nutt went to the Cotton Bowl with on campus.  I believe Ford would have done just as well as Nutt, probably better in '98.  Petrino took over a program that still had talent, Nutt didn't stop recruiting because he honestly thought he was tephlon right up to the end and also benefitted from some kid that transferred from Michigan. CBB took over after basically losing two years of recruiting because of the Bobby fiasco followed by lame duck JLS. All of that plus complete change in offensive philosophy. CBB can coach, recruit, and build a staff. If he's given the time, he will make us a winner for a long time.

[riccoar]

And nothing like *any* of those things have happened.    What is wrong with you people?

Too many back yard football conference victories and Tecmo Bowl Super Bowl championships won on rookie level.  That's what is wrong with them.

[MJ2]

Hogs are 3-3 right now and I expected 2-4 coming into the season.   However, if I go back to the minutes just after BP was fired, I expected whoever was coaching here now to be about 5-1 at this point with the loss being to Bama.

[poloprince]

Almost doesn't count in the win column.

[Kevin]

Expectations change as the season evolves. If you were to tell me we are up by 14 in the fourth vs a&m I would have counted that as a win.

If you yell me Bama, is going to play the way they did on Saturday, then i would have counted that as a win.

So with the way the season has evolved, I would have predicted 5-1

[hogsanity]

The losses are unacceptable-

So the losses are unacceptable?  Well, that kind of defeats the rest of your op, doesn't it?

[wildhogman]

Ford went 4-7, 4-7 and Nutt came in and won 9 his first year. Petrino went 8-5 with a bowl victory after Nutt had fractured the fanbase like never before. Also, like CBB while implementing a completely new system. In neither of those other scenarios, did AR finish in the top 5 just 2 years prior. 0-8 should never be acceptable at ANY school in the SEC. Thank God Franklin is no longer at Vandy, or else AR would be the worst football program in the SEC the last 1 1/2 years. I am a big fan of CBB the man, just have my doubts about CBB the coach. I hope I'm wrong.

wrong, Petrino went 5-7 his first year.
And since the bama game brought all this on, I think this little fact fits here. Petrino lost 49 -14 to bama his first year and 35-7 his second year. Second year was with Mallett.  The math says 146-55. Interesting numbers. 3rd try was his best, but he forgot about his future all SEC running back Davis and left him on the bench with a lead while mallet threw 3, count them, 3 INT's.  oh well maybe he will have better luck with his present school, "IF" he ever maks the playoffs. Oh and Nutt didn't finish in top 10, but CBP took over a team just 2 years removed from winning 10 games and playing in the SECCG. Remind me how many times CBP played in that game?  I couldn't find any stats from our SECCG during the years 2008 to 2011.

[DeltaBoy]

Ok- not trolling here- serious question:  Because I have a hard time understanding where some of you are coming from on here.  If after the JLS season I told you that in one and a half seasons we would be 3 or 4 plays from being 5-1, would lose to A and M in OT and lose to Bama by 1 point and outplay both teams in the process you wouldn't have  believed me right?  And you probably would have said "I will take that." 

The losses are unacceptable- I am not denying that.  It is frustrating - but where did you expect us to be? 

Here is what I was taught in Coaching class, IF you lose a game where you have a lead in the 4th Quarter it is YOUR FAULT!  The Hogs have done it the past 3 games.

[S.A.D.C]

So the losses are unacceptable?  Well, that kind of defeats the rest of your op, doesn't it?

Actually not really-  the fact that something is unacceptable doesn't there are not reasons for it being so or that those results should not be acceptable.

Let's go back to the business analogy- losing money isn't acceptable in business.  But if a business has been so mismanaged or the market is in such a shape that turning a profit isn't possible for some amount of time you adjust your expectations as you build a plan to get the business in an acceptable state. 

So- losing can be both unacceptable but expected- even justified.  I was asking what the expectations were for this year....

[S.A.D.C]

Here is what I was taught in Coaching class, IF you lose a game where you have a lead in the 4th Quarter it is YOUR FAULT!  The Hogs have done it the past 3 games.

As a hard and fast rule that is the dumbest thing I have heard.  But- in the case of the last 3 hog games it is undeniable.  We should have won all of them.  We will!

[DeltaBoy]

Nope even Arkansas Coaching Legend Frank McClellan has said that.

[S.A.D.C]

Nope even Arkansas Coaching Legend Frank McClellan has said that.

As a general rule the best team wins the game.  Regardless of when they take the lead. 

[Country Stylz]

The question was asked if he told us we'd be here after the jls mess and I said I'd take it. No one likes to lose but the progress is there.

We have been snatching defeat from the jaws of victory is the problem. These victories would have been huge for recruiting. That's why people are upset. How often do you get a chance to beat Bama in this league?

[Razorbax]

Actually not really-  the fact that something is unacceptable doesn't there are not reasons for it being so or that those results should not be acceptable.

Let's go back to the business analogy- losing money isn't acceptable in business.  But if a business has been so mismanaged or the market is in such a shape that turning a profit isn't possible for some amount of time you adjust your expectations as you build a plan to get the business in an acceptable state. 

So- losing can be both unacceptable but expected- even justified.  I was asking what the expectations were for this year....

Unless Uncle Sugar bails you out, the only acceptable state in a business is a profitable one. Either the business goes under or you get replaced. There are no 4 year passes from shareholders.

[NaturalStateReb]

Ok- not trolling here- serious question:  Because I have a hard time understanding where some of you are coming from on here.  If after the JLS season I told you that in one and a half seasons we would be 3 or 4 plays from being 5-1, would lose to A and M in OT and lose to Bama by 1 point and outplay both teams in the process you wouldn't have  believed me right?  And you probably would have said "I will take that." 

The losses are unacceptable- I am not denying that.  It is frustrating - but where did you expect us to be? 

3-3, right where they are. 

They are showing continuous improvement, which is exactly what you want to see.  A bowl game is within reach.  While it's frustrating to get close to a win and not hang on to it, they're competitive and getting better each week.  That's what everyone should want to see.

[dwcherr]

^^^^^^

This is why we're not Alabama.  We refuse to tolerate the hard work that goes into building something from the ground up.     

This is revisionist history at its finest. Alabama was 4-4 in the SEC in Saban's FIRST YEAR. His second year they went 12-2 and and went to the SUGAR BOWL. Saban won multiple Coach of the Year awards. They went undefeated (12-0) in regular season games.

So please explain to me how Alabama fans had to be patient again.

[NaturalStateReb]

This is revisionist history at its finest. Alabama was 4-4 in the SEC in Saban's FIRST YEAR. His second year they went 12-2 and and went to the SUGAR BOWL. Saban won multiple Coach of the Year awards. They went undefeated (12-0) in regular season games.

So please explain to me how Alabama fans had to be patient again.

Although I see what you're saying, there was a whole lot of crappy football before that point.

[hogrocker]

At the beginning of the year, most people said we would be better, but it won't show in the W column.  A lot of pundits said we would win 3 games, maybe, with several saying we might not win that many.  Some people thought the only wins on our schedule would be Nicholls and UAB.  Most people said a bowl was a pipe dream.  At this point, a bowl looks pretty attainable.  I think we are ahead of where most folks thought we would be. 

The schools who have beaten us have had recruiting classes that were consistently in the top ten for several years.  As a result, they have more depth than us, and can play at a higher level longer than us, so we've gotten beaten late.  That said, we look a lot better than most people thought we would.  Anyone who thought we'd have more than three wins now before the season was kidding themselves.  If you're not a little happy or pleasantly surprised at our record at this point, then you wanted us to fail in the first place.  I'll never understand why people call themselves fans and go to the games just to complain.  We are ahead of schedule.  Quit moanin'.

[ErieHog]

This is revisionist history at its finest. Alabama was 4-4 in the SEC in Saban's FIRST YEAR. His second year they went 12-2 and and went to the SUGAR BOWL. Saban won multiple Coach of the Year awards. They went undefeated (12-0) in regular season games.

So please explain to me how Alabama fans had to be patient again.

Saban built relatively quickly-- but had a heck of a lot more on hand, to work with-- including a Top 10 class recruited under Shula.

You are the one revising history.

[hogcard1964]

Almost doesn't count in the win column.

+1000

Have to win.

[HF#1]

Nobody understands the blueprint for building a football program from the depths of turmoil. 

Year 1 - Lose big

Year 2 - Lose small

Year 3 - Win small

Year 4 - Win big

*Disclaimer*  Doesn't apply to the almighty Gus as he had his players already in place, ready to go.

[dwcherr]

Saban built relatively quickly-- but had a heck of a lot more on hand, to work with-- including a Top 10 class recruited under Shula.

You are the one revising history.

You said that we aren't Alabama and insinuated that it was because we can't be patient. Saban won his very first SEC game (his first 2 actually). They went 4-4 in the SEC his first year (2-6 the year before he got there). He started the season 6-2. Alabama fans are the epitome of impatient. They fired a coach a year after he went 10-2! It was their impatience that kept them from being satisfied with Mike Shula.

You are flat out wrong if you think Bama fans are patient. They are mad at Saban this year already.

[dwcherr]

Nobody understands the blueprint for building a football program from the depths of turmoil. 

Year 1 - Lose big

Year 2 - Lose small

Year 3 - Win small

Year 4 - Win big

*Disclaimer*  Doesn't apply to the almighty Gus as he had his players already in place, ready to go.

*Disclaimer*

Doesn't apply to Saban/Malzahn/Freeze/etc. etc. because it doesn't fit the narrative....

[S.A.D.C]

Unless Uncle Sugar bails you out, the only acceptable state in a business is a profitable one. Either the business goes under or you get replaced. There are no 4 year passes from shareholders.

Again- false- look at Twitter- has never turned a profit.  Amazon didn't make a profit until 2003- 9 years without a profit!   FedEx wasn't profitable for 4 years- almost went bankrupt.  ESPN started in 1979 and didn't turn a profit until the mid-80's.  Tesla started in 2003 lost money every single QUARTER until 2013- 10 years. 

I can go all day- the point is:

While there is never a pass- investors often continue to invest in a company for years with no profits and even big losses for a promise a payout in the future.  I think CBB will payout in the long run.  That is yet to be seen and I understand people who disagree...but there was gonna have to be some "investment" done by anyone who took this job.  The OP was about me being curious as to what people thought that investment would be.

[HotlantaHog]

I expected Hogs would win 4, 5 or 6 games this year -- I think that could go higher now ... 7 seems more likely than 4 ... Overall, the season has been better than expected.

[hogcard1964]

Nobody understands the blueprint for building a football program from the depths of turmoil. 

Year 1 - Lose big

Year 2 - Lose small

Year 3 - Win small

Year 4 - Win big

*Disclaimer*  Doesn't apply to the almighty Gus as he had his players already in place, ready to go.

Yea this is the master plan.   

You can't make this stuff up.

[Harleigh Hog]

Coming into the year I expected 3-9 to 4-7 (the previous two years have really taken a toll on my positive vibes). Just didn't see a lot of game changing personnel evolving to the point of a major turn around.

This year has been incredibly awesome and incredibly frustrating all at the same time. So if your asking what I expected coming in then there ya go.

However, I also expect to reevaluate on a weekly basis due to the information I have available at that time. Just going back one year did you expect both MS schools to occupy the top 3? Did you expect aTm to be average at best? Did you expect Bama to be without a decent QB?

As I said before, I expected to lose to all of those teams this year and lose much worse than we did. However, since the beginning of the year things have changed. I EXPECT as a lifelong fan of the Razorbacks to win one of these games when we have the chance and send our program in a positive direction!  I'm not mad at CBB and I'm dang sure not mad at the players but I'm sick of always being the bridesmaid and I want to see this turn around sooner than later.

I really feel we are at a critical moment as a program. Win one we aren't supposed to and I believe CBB has what it takes to build something great. Lose a few more and it's a slippery slope to bottom dweller...

Having said all that, see ya in the rock this Saturday! WPS!!!

[Letsroll1200]

Ok- not trolling here- serious question:  Because I have a hard time understanding where some of you are coming from on here.  If after the JLS season I told you that in one and a half seasons we would be 3 or 4 plays from being 5-1, would lose to A and M in OT and lose to Bama by 1 point and outplay both teams in the process you wouldn't have  believed me right?  And you probably would have said "I will take that." 

The losses are unacceptable- I am not denying that.  It is frustrating - but where did you expect us to be?

This team have exceeded my expectation for them this season. I did not expect us to play with Texas A&M or have a shot at beating BAMA. This team has improved on defense and BA is a much improved player. The Razorbacks are headed in the right direction

[Razorbax]

Again- false- look at Twitter- has never turned a profit.  Amazon didn't make a profit until 2003- 9 years without a profit!   FedEx wasn't profitable for 4 years- almost went bankrupt.  ESPN started in 1979 and didn't turn a profit until the mid-80's.  Tesla started in 2003 lost money every single QUARTER until 2013- 10 years. 

I can go all day- the point is:

While there is never a pass- investors often continue to invest in a company for years with no profits and even big losses for a promise a payout in the future.  I think CBB will payout in the long run.  That is yet to be seen and I understand people who disagree...but there was gonna have to be some "investment" done by anyone who took this job.  The OP was about me being curious as to what people thought that investment would be.

Those were all startups. Totally different than an established company. The University of Arkansas is not a startup. Secondly, you are talking new tech companies. Their prospectuses are treated very differently than established companies. Try again.

[S.A.D.C]

Those were all startups. Totally different than an established company. The University of Arkansas is not a startup. Secondly, you are talking new tech companies. Their prospectuses are treated very differently than established companies. Try again.

Actually Tesla, ESPN, and Fed Ex are nothing close to "new tech companies." That is a very diverse set of categories.

And while the University of Arkansas is not a start up it was a rebuilding job.  How much rebuilding had to be done is a matter of debate- but that it had to be rebuilt is a fact.  So I think the analogy is perfect.  But for the record- I have actually taken over a large and mature business that was in the crapper after mismanagement.  Our sales were negative- big time.  To fix the mess in 2 years was impossible.  The expectation was we had 18 moths where things were going to be rough - they we were going to continue to decline- but then after about 18 months we should start to show growth.  That happens all the time in business and in sports- stop pretending it doesn't.  In life, sports, business- whatever- you can't just wave a wand and change realities around you. Sometimes expectations are and should be low.  I know it is brutal to say and you probably think that should never be the case for your football team but that is myopic. 

Which is why the original question (which I don't believe you have answered) wasn't "are you happy with the record" it was "what did you expect"?