A-State modifies cross on helmet

[Seminole Indian]

After objections from the Freedom From Religion Foundation, ASU chose to modify the cross leaving only the horizontal white line with the initial's of former player Markel Owens and former equipment manager Barry Weyer.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaaf/2014/09/10/arkansas-state-removes-memorial-crosses-from-helmets/15402697/?siteID=je6NUbpObpQ-RPM1WGOuRYKcQlwwl9oVrA

A nice, and I thought appropriate (using crosses in the context of someone having died  is IMO not inappropriate) gesture but apparently a  violation of separation of church and state.

[The Boar War]

So how did Congress make a law respecting the establishment of a religion when ASU put a cross on the back of its helmet?

[Seminole Indian]

Again the cross that the team chose to add to their helmet with the initials of the students IMO more resembled the crosses we except as simple headstone monuments.

I did not view the cross on ASU's helmet as a religious statement, but obviously some did, and it is offensive to them, and I do understand and respect their views, and rights in this area.

I still believe that in some context using crosses is not being insensitive to their views and rights on this subject, but that is for them to say not me.

http://kevinwhiteman.com/2013/12/eventually-headstones-at-arlington-and-medals-for-heroism-will-be-targeted/

[DeltaBoy]

That Freedom from Religion folks are a bunch of NUTS!

[OldArmy94]

I did not view the cross on ASU's helmet as a religious statement, but obviously some did, and it is offensive to them, and I do understand and respect their views, and rights in this area.

But, WHY is their right not to be "offended" trump MY rights, or our collective rights? There is no violation of the Constitution here, just pure surrender to a few clamoring atheists. We have failed to educate our nation about the First Amendment and what it is all about; and it is NOT about suppressing expressions of Christian faith.

[Seminole Indian]

But, WHY is their right not to be "offended" trump MY rights, or our collective rights? There is no violation of the Constitution here, just pure surrender to a few clamoring atheists. We have failed to educate our nation about the First Amendment and what it is all about; and it is NOT about suppressing expressions of Christian faith.

Can't answerer your question, but do know that ASU was advised by their legal counsel that they were in an untenable position on this matter, and had no choice but to  'surrender'.   

[talley]

Can't answerer your question, but do know that ASU was advised by their legal counsel that they were in an untenable position on this matter, and had no choice but to  'surrender'.

Funny how it is always the christian faith/symbols that must "surrender". This does not infringe on anyones free speech or freedom of religion rights.  The constitution does not protect you from being offended, but gives you the right to be offended and have the right to say something about it.  In the same sense, it also gives me the right to not care and put a cross sticker on the back of my helmet for a fallen friend...

[Hawgndaaz]

my dad always says "there's a lot of people going to hell"

[Grizzlyfan]

Funny how it is always the christian faith/symbols that must "surrender". This does not infringe on anyones free speech or freedom of religion rights.  The constitution does not protect you from being offended, but gives you the right to be offended and have the right to say something about it.  In the same sense, it also gives me the right to not care and put a cross sticker on the back of my helmet for a fallen friend...

Because Christianity is by far the religion of majority in the US.  It would be rare to see a Star of David or a Islamic Star and Crescent on the back of a football helmet.  And whatever you think about this particular situation that is one of the fundamental functions of the constitution.  To protect the rights of the minority.

[talley]

Because Christianity is by far the religion of majority in the US.  It would be rare to see a Star of David or a Islamic Star and Crescent on the back of a football helmet.  And whatever you think about this particular situation that is one of the fundamental functions of the constitution.  To protect the rights of the minority.

You are right that it is to protect the rights of ALL people.  It is THEIR right to put a cross on the back of THEIR helmets.  If they wanted to put a sticker of buddha or a star of david, not a problem.  But, since it is a cross it becomes a problem? 

Thats ridiculous!

[Inhogswetrust]

That Freedom from Religion folks are a bunch of NUTS!

No they aren't.

[Inhogswetrust]

You are right that it is to protect the rights of ALL people.  It is THEIR right to put a cross on the back of THEIR helmets.  If they wanted to put a sticker of buddha or a star of david, not a problem.  But, since it is a cross it becomes a problem? 

Thats ridiculous!

It isn't their helmet. It's the schools helmet. A government supported school.

[AnonymousHog]

It isn't their helmet. It's the schools helmet. A government supported school.

But tax dollars probably didn't pay a dime for those helmets.  It's a catch 22 situation honestly.  You can't have it one way and claim it as another.

[ricepig]

But tax dollars probably didn't pay a dime for those helmets.  It's a catch 22 situation honestly.  You can't have it one way and claim it as another.

Hmm, it's a G5 school, good bet they did.

[Veritas Arkansas]

You are right that it is to protect the rights of ALL people.  It is THEIR right to put a cross on the back of THEIR helmets.  If they wanted to put a sticker of buddha or a star of david, not a problem.  But, since it is a cross it becomes a problem? 

Thats ridiculous!

It'd be just as wrong if they wanted to put a picture of Buddha or a Star of David on it.

[AnonymousHog]

Hmm, it's a G5 school, good bet they did.

They do have a foundation for athletics.

http://www.redwolvesfoundation.com/

[ricepig]

They do have a foundation for athletics.

http://www.redwolvesfoundation.com/

Yes, they do, as do all G5 schools.

[cosmodrum]

my dad always says "there's a lot of people going to hell"

I'll save you a seat

[Pyotr Tchaikhogsky]

Here's why it was wrong to make the decal specific to one religion:

1. It assumes that the two being memorialized were Christians. 

2. It assumes every member of the team is also a Christian.

3. If there was a member on the team who was not a Christian, they would be forced to choose between wearing a religious symbol that does not represent their beliefs, or NOT supporting their departed friends. 

4. No one on the team wants to be seen as not supporting their departed friends.

5. Any non-Christian on the team may not have gone public with their beliefs yet, and this forced choice would put their anonymity in jeopardy.  Being a non-Christian in an overwhelmingly predominant Christian family or community can be a terrifying experience.  The fear of losing friends and family, the fear of persecution or public shaming, these weigh heavily on them.  They should not be forced to make a decision like this.

Obviously, it would have been best to have a neutral, non-religious decal to honor the departed.  But even if they had given players a choice between a neutral decal and one that reflects their religion, that at least would have been better than what they did. 

[Inhogswetrust]

But tax dollars probably didn't pay a dime for those helmets.  It's a catch 22 situation honestly.  You can't have it one way and claim it as another.

I'm not having it one way and claiming another. Those helmets regardless of who pays for them are the property of the University of Arkansas which is a government supported school.

[Inhogswetrust]

It'd be just as wrong if they wanted to put a picture of Buddha or a Star of David on it.

Yep.

[Inhogswetrust]

They do have a foundation for athletics.

http://www.redwolvesfoundation.com/

ALL "foundations" help to finance the particular SCHOOLS athletic program. That doesn't mean the foundations OWN the athletic programs.

[Got_da_captain]

Yes, they do, as do all G5 schools.

Correction every school with any kind of support has a Foundation that donors give to.

[Grizzlyfan]

I saw a picture of a Razorback offensive lineman that had a cross drawn on his wrist tape.  It's his right to put the cross there. 

[H&D]

Here's why it was wrong to make the decal specific to one religion:

1. It assumes that the two being memorialized were Christians.

Maybe they were.

2. It assumes every member of the team is also a Christian.

No it doesn't.

3. If there was a member on the team who was not a Christian, they would be forced to choose between wearing a religious symbol that does not represent their beliefs, or NOT supporting their departed friends. 

How do you know they would be "forced"? If I lost a member of my team that was Jewish or Muslim I'd wear their symbol to honor them.  Maybe some of you have no concept of what it means to be on a team. I attend Jewish services with my buddy in Iraq. I didn't want him to go to service alone.  I attend Mulsim services in both Iraq and Saudi Arabia out of respect for those I was serving with.   

4. No one on the team wants to be seen as not supporting their departed friends.

Did you talk to them?  Did someone on the team tell you this?  Have you ever been a part of something bigger than yourself?

5. Any non-Christian on the team may not have gone public with their beliefs yet, and this forced choice would put their anonymity in jeopardy.  Being a non-Christian in an overwhelmingly predominant Christian family or community can be a terrifying experience.  The fear of losing friends and family, the fear of persecution or public shaming, these weigh heavily on them.  They should not be forced to make a decision like this.

You're acting as though non-Christians are being persecuted.....   

Obviously, it would have been best to have a neutral, non-religious decal to honor the departed.  But even if they had given players a choice between a neutral decal and one that reflects their religion, that at least would have been better than what they did.

How do you know that's not what they did? 

[DeltaBoy]

No they aren't.

Yes they are they waste our trees and air emailing and writing their tin hat Letters,   They have no life except to scream and threaten any symbol they see in society.   I had not even noticed the cross on the Helmets until they pointed it out.   
I'm offended that they are offended and if I was a Lawyer I would find some way to sue them out of business.

[Pyotr Tchaikhogsky]

You're acting as though non-Christians are being persecuted.....   

How do you know they are not?  Did you talk to them?  Did a non-Christian tell you this?  Have you ever held religious beliefs that are different than everyone in your family and 99% of everyone you know?

[The_Iceman]

I did not view the cross on ASU's helmet as a religious statement, but obviously some did, and it is offensive to them, and I do understand and respect their views, and rights in this area.

Don't believe for one second it is actually offensive to these liberal nutjobs. They just want to make a political statement.

[The_Iceman]

If I was one of these students, before the game I would walk out onto the field, pull the decal out, and stick in on the back of the helmet for everyone to see.

[GolfNut57]

That Freedom from Religion folks are a bunch of NUTS!

Yep. And the day will come when God sends them to roast in a fire.

[GolfNut57]

I bet the FFR folks just love the school known as Holy Cross!

[Veritas Arkansas]

I bet the FFR folks just love the school known as Holy Cross!

Holy Cross is a private school.

[GolfNut57]

Holy Cross is a private school.

That may be true but it still won't stop the haters from hating. But as long as Holy Cross receives NO financial help from the government there isn't a damn thing the anti-religious nuts can do to them.

[Rzbakfromwaybak]

The Freedom from Religion Foundation......is pretty much as the name sounds.

Don't be fooled by these people. They want the whole country to be free of any kind of religious speech. They don't want to see or hear any kind of religious speech or symbols, anywhere.  Their real goal is to suppress religious freedom anyway they can.  If they had the power to come into a church & suppress what is said there, or remove symbols & Bibles....they would.  They don't believe in God, & they don't want others to be able to practice or express their belief's.  Just seeing a cross on a helmet gets them angry, & they are ready to take it to court.  Pathetic, & very telling of their real goal. 

This kind of stuff will get worse. Someday, they will claim that you can't have a car decal with a cross or religious symbol on your personal vehicle.  Since the vehicles are driven on state/federal highways/county roads,  carries a state license plate,...& or... a state inspection sticker, & you are required in most or all states, to have state controlled liability insurance, to drive that vehicle.  Some court will eventually rule that these vehicles actually fall into the category of "state or govt. controlled", & should be free from all religious symbols or slogans.  Far fetched?  Hardly. Not many thought 30-40 years ago, that a football team could be taken to court over a cross on their helmet.

[The Boar War]

Don't believe for one second it is actually offensive to these liberal nutjobs. They just want to make a political statement.

If I were an atheist I wouldn't be offended.  How can you be offended by something you believe is made up? 

As far as I can tell there's no evangelistic effort to this decal; just a memorial of two young men who died.  It seems to me that someone so concerned with the "downtrodden" could find just the smallest amount of compassion to support (or at least not complain about) an effort to remember these two guys. 

This has (or should have) little to do with the first amendment, the establishment clause, or any other existing court decisions on government and religion.  It should come down to human decency and respect for those who have died, their family, and their friends.  But that always gets lost in the shuffle.

[Veritas Arkansas]

That may be true but it still won't stop the haters from hating. But as long as Holy Cross receives NO financial help from the government there isn't a damn thing the anti-religious nuts can do to them.

I dont' think wanting there to be a separation between church and state makes someone an anti-religious nut.

I want church and state to be as separate as they can be, and I'm a Christian.

[The Boar War]

I dont' think wanting there to be a separation between church and state makes someone an anti-religious nut.

I want church and state to be as separate as they can be, and I'm a Christian.

It all comes down to the establishment of a state religion and the passage of a law by Congress that would reflect that.  That is the separation of church and state. 

It's a huge stretch to believe that a state sponsored college using a decal to memorialize two people somehow holds the same weight as a law that has passed both houses of Congress.

[Pyotr Tchaikhogsky]

The Freedom from Religion Foundation......is pretty much as the name sounds.

Don't be fooled by these people. They want the whole country to be free of any kind of religious speech. They don't want to see or hear any kind of religious speech or symbols, anywhere.  Their real goal is to suppress religious freedom anyway they can.  If they had the power to come into a church & suppress what is said there, or remove symbols & Bibles....they would.  They don't believe in God, & they don't want others to be able to practice or express their belief's.  Just seeing a cross on a helmet gets them angry, & they are ready to take it to court.  Pathetic, & very telling of their real goal. 

This kind of stuff will get worse. Someday, they will claim that you can't have a car decal with a cross or religious symbol on your personal vehicle.  Since the vehicles are driven on state/federal highways/county roads,  carries a state license plate,...& or... a state inspection sticker, & you are required in most or all states, to have state controlled liability insurance, to drive that vehicle.  Some court will eventually rule that these vehicles actually fall into the category of "state or govt. controlled", & should be free from all religious symbols or slogans.  Far fetched?  Hardly. Not many thought 30-40 years ago, that a football team could be taken to court over a cross on their helmet.

This is just all kinds of wrong.  You need to get to know some real atheists, not the caricatures you hear about from your preacher or see in a movie.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/godlessindixie/2014/08/05/what-i-learned-about-atheists-from-gods-not-dead/

[BPsTheMan]

I saw a star of David on a car today

didn't bother me

[DOGALUM]

I dont' think wanting there to be a separation between church and state makes someone an anti-religious nut.

I want church and state to be as separate as they can be, and I'm a Christian.

Well......a lawyer first......a liberal second........Christian might be in the top 20......

Believing in God does not make one a Christian.   Satan believes in God too.

[BigChief14]

I saw a star of David on a car today

didn't bother me

Was it driving on a public (govt) street!!
Now I'm ticked!!


See how stupid this whole argument is!

[BPsTheMan]

Was it driving on a public (govt) street!!
Now I'm ticked!!

Yes it was. Car with a star of David on a government street

And I was on my way to city hall

I think Govt Mule was playing on 93.3

[hawkhawg]

Well......a lawyer first......a liberal second........Christian might be in the top 20......

Believing in God does not makeone a Christian.   Satan believes in God too.

What makes one a Christian?

[Veritas Arkansas]

Well......a lawyer first......a liberal second........Christian might be in the top 20......

Believing in God does not make one a Christian.   Satan believes in God too.

Husband, son, and Christian are top 3.  Hopefully father will be there soon.

And I'll thank you to never question my faith again.

[Veritas Arkansas]

It all comes down to the establishment of a state religion and the passage of a law by Congress that would reflect that.  That is the separation of church and state. 

It's a huge stretch to believe that a state sponsored college using a decal to memorialize two people somehow holds the same weight as a law that has passed both houses of Congress.

The analysis of the 1st amendment goes further than just that amendments. You also have to look at the 14th, which made the 1st amendment apply to states/local governments.  You also have to look at a line of cases where they have examined what exactly constitutes "establishment of religion."  Note - it's not "a religion," it's just "religion."  There is a difference.

[DOGALUM]

Husband, son, and Christian are top 3.  Hopefully father will be there soon.

And I'll thank you to never question my faith again.

I didn't question your faith.  I have no doubt that you fully believe in whatever it is you believe in.    Based on your post history.......the crazy liberal views you spew on here.......it's not the Holy Bible you fully believe in.   

I questioned your Christianity.....not your faith.   

[Grizzlyfan]

I didn't question your faith.  I have no doubt that you fully believe in whatever it is you believe in.    Based on your post history.......the crazy liberal views you spew on here.......it's not the Holy Bible you fully believe in.   

I questioned your Christianity.....not your faith.

And the way you present yourself is basically the Pharisees that Jesus spoke to in the New Testament.  It's all about appearances and saying the right thing. Or sticking a cross on the back of a football helmet for everyone to see and believing that proves your faith.  Jesus said the axe would be at the root of your tree.

[Grizzlyfan]

I understand that some organization is planning to print 25,000 T-shirts with the cross on the front as it had appeared on the back of the helmet.  And that is how you make a statement and keep it within the confines of our constitution. 

[Torqued pork]

Congress opens each day with a prayer unless I'm mistaken. Our money has "In God We Trust" on it. Yep, a temporary cross on ASU's helmet is the obvious next step to a theocracy.

[Veritas Arkansas]

Congress opens each day with a prayer unless I'm mistaken. Our money has "In God We Trust" on it. Yep, a temporary cross on ASU's helmet is the obvious next step to a theocracy.

Lord, it's hard not to despise lawyers.

And a lot of folks think that those two things shouldn't happen either.