2014 Annual Thread

[GusMcRae]

Got the C-150 in for owner assist over the weekend.  Have a few squawks to take care of but shouldn't be anything too major.  I got my part done for the inspection and the mx is supposed to do the majority of his part today. 

Waiting until after labor day trip to put the C-182 in with the same mx,,, doing owner assist on it this year as well,,, first time we've done owner assist on the 182. 

[GusMcRae]

Finished up the C-150 over the weekend.  Had to replace the flaps indicator cable, and put new brake discs and pads on.  Other than that had a cowling fastener or 2 that needed some attention.  Everything else checked out ok.

[Pistol Pete]

Finished up the C-150 over the weekend.  Had to replace the flaps indicator cable, and put new brake discs and pads on.  Other than that had a cowling fastener or 2 that needed some attention.  Everything else checked out ok.

Glad to hear that. We have our annual coming up in October. Last year was $4600 or so... Had some voluntary upgrades we elected to do, but didn't count on that price.

[GusMcRae]

C-182's turn this week.  I pulled all inspection plates, front seats, and cowling Saturday AM.  Known squawks are 1 of the 2 landing/taxi lights, will try to adjust the vaccum pump regulator to bring up the suction a tad (only registers slightly over 4 now), unclog RH side rear air vent tube, replace 1 push rod tube gasket without pulling cyl (some sort of split/overlapping gasket supposedly available) due to mx no properly installing 2 years ago and it leaks oil (and I think this is the only noticeable leak I have left).  I'm expecting the brakes to need pads as well. 

And the big item is to upgrade my 430 to WAAS,,,, the screen is going out, and the memory battery is low,,, gives me a message now every time I flip on the master switch.

[gotyacovered]

C-182's turn this week.  I pulled all inspection plates, front seats, and cowling Saturday AM.  Known squawks are 1 of the 2 landing/taxi lights, will try to adjust the vaccum pump regulator to bring up the suction a tad (only registers slightly over 4 now), unclog RH side rear air vent tube, replace 1 push rod tube gasket without pulling cyl (some sort of split/overlapping gasket supposedly available) due to mx no properly installing 2 years ago and it leaks oil (and I think this is the only noticeable leak I have left).  I'm expecting the brakes to need pads as well. 

And the big item is to upgrade my 430 to WAAS,,,, the screen is going out, and the memory battery is low,,, gives me a message now every time I flip on the master switch.

those memory batteries are expensive if i recall correctly+the WAAS upgrade+the screen!!! just go ahead and upgrade to that GTN 650

[GusMcRae]

those memory batteries are expensive if i recall correctly+the WAAS upgrade+the screen!!! just go ahead and upgrade to that GTN 650

Yep, avionics shop says $3600 installed including changing out antenaes, but I'm expecting it to go $4,000 by the time it's all done.

The 430 fits in the existing hole,,,, anything else is going to require rearrange, re-rack, etc,,,,

My mx is going to look into removing some obsolete antennaes off the belly.  There a Narco (I have nothing Narco in there), and there's an ADF antennae (I think) that is still on there.  He said that he removed one before that weighed over 30 pounds.  Might pick up a few lbs of useful after he's done cutting off some of that useless fat.

[GusMcRae]

Well,,, I've got a little scare going on with #1 cyl, very low compression and mx says it losing it out the exhaust valve.  Weird because I am noticing no vibration, mag checks have shown no problems since December 2013 after resolving #4 cyl issue.   I am hoping and praying it is just a piece of carbon keeping it from seating good.  This was a new cyl 2 years ago at annual (July 2012).  As time has gone by, the entire installation of that cylinder was botched.  Leaking push rod tube gasket that was improperly installed,,, 8 of 12 exhaust manifold nuts were discovered completely missing by me,,,, and this was shortly (3 months or so) after the same mx completed the 2013 annual,,, and the only reason I used this so-called A&P was so they would have an opportunity to make good on the leaking push rod tube. 
Upon discovery of the missing exhaust nuts in Dec of 2013, I vowed to never,,, EVER,,, use that mx again,,,, we replaced all the nuts but 1, which the 1 I'm talking about was on the same replaced cyl, because the stud was bent back towards the pipe and we were unable to get a nut on it.  We decided to proceed knowing 1 was missing, and observe it and see what kind of exhaust leak we had after some time in operation.  After all,,, 11 of 12 was surely better than 4 of 12, as I assume I had been operating for over 1 year like that, my thinking was that they were never put on, or put on properly at installation, or lock nuts were not used, etc,,,
So now, the plan is to attempt to get that stud bent back straight, get a nut on it, run it hot and check compression again.  If that works and the compression is still low, pull the jug.  If exhaust nut successful, and compression is good, deal with the push rod tube gasket leak.  If the exhaust nut is a fail, pull the jug,,, fix everything.
430 upgrade to WAAS is temporarily on hold.
So much for a trouble free annual. 

[gotyacovered]

Well,,, I've got a little scare going on with #1 cyl, very low compression and mx says it losing it out the exhaust valve.  Weird because I am noticing no vibration, mag checks have shown no problems since December 2013 after resolving #4 cyl issue.   I am hoping and praying it is just a piece of carbon keeping it from seating good.  This was a new cyl 2 years ago at annual (July 2012).  As time has gone by, the entire installation of that cylinder was botched.  Leaking push rod tube gasket that was improperly installed,,, 8 of 12 exhaust manifold nuts were discovered completely missing by me,,,, and this was shortly (3 months or so) after the same mx completed the 2013 annual,,, and the only reason I used this so-called A&P was so they would have an opportunity to make good on the leaking push rod tube. 
Upon discovery of the missing exhaust nuts in Dec of 2013, I vowed to never,,, EVER,,, use that mx again,,,, we replaced all the nuts but 1, which the 1 I'm talking about was on the same replaced cyl, because the stud was bent back towards the pipe and we were unable to get a nut on it.  We decided to proceed knowing 1 was missing, and observe it and see what kind of exhaust leak we had after some time in operation.  After all,,, 11 of 12 was surely better than 4 of 12, as I assume I had been operating for over 1 year like that, my thinking was that they were never put on, or put on properly at installation, or lock nuts were not used, etc,,,
So now, the plan is to attempt to get that stud bent back straight, get a nut on it, run it hot and check compression again.  If that works and the compression is still low, pull the jug.  If exhaust nut successful, and compression is good, deal with the push rod tube gasket leak.  If the exhaust nut is a fail, pull the jug,,, fix everything.
430 upgrade to WAAS is temporarily on hold.
So much for a trouble free annual. 

sounds familar... in the very beging of my oil burn increse i ran into the same thing. sent my cylinder in (same shop that i just had this work done) and he did something to the exhaust valve that instantly fixed it... dont think it cost much at all... $350(?). i just looked at the invoice from the mech who pulled the cylinder to send off and he didnt put details other than labor rate and hours for removing it... (it was #3 for me).

[Warbirdhog]

Well,,, I've got a little scare going on with #1 cyl, very low compression and mx says it losing it out the exhaust valve.  Weird because I am noticing no vibration, mag checks have shown no problems since December 2013 after resolving #4 cyl issue.   I am hoping and praying it is just a piece of carbon keeping it from seating good.  This was a new cyl 2 years ago at annual (July 2012).  As time has gone by, the entire installation of that cylinder was botched.  Leaking push rod tube gasket that was improperly installed,,, 8 of 12 exhaust manifold nuts were discovered completely missing by me,,,, and this was shortly (3 months or so) after the same mx completed the 2013 annual,,, and the only reason I used this so-called A&P was so they would have an opportunity to make good on the leaking push rod tube. 
Upon discovery of the missing exhaust nuts in Dec of 2013, I vowed to never,,, EVER,,, use that mx again,,,, we replaced all the nuts but 1, which the 1 I'm talking about was on the same replaced cyl, because the stud was bent back towards the pipe and we were unable to get a nut on it.  We decided to proceed knowing 1 was missing, and observe it and see what kind of exhaust leak we had after some time in operation.  After all,,, 11 of 12 was surely better than 4 of 12, as I assume I had been operating for over 1 year like that, my thinking was that they were never put on, or put on properly at installation, or lock nuts were not used, etc,,,
So now, the plan is to attempt to get that stud bent back straight, get a nut on it, run it hot and check compression again.  If that works and the compression is still low, pull the jug.  If exhaust nut successful, and compression is good, deal with the push rod tube gasket leak.  If the exhaust nut is a fail, pull the jug,,, fix everything.
430 upgrade to WAAS is temporarily on hold.
So much for a trouble free annual.

Gus, if you don't mind another opinion I would suggest just replacing that bent exhaust stud. If it is bent far enough to prevent installation of a nut, then it's bent enough to have been stressed. Bending it back is only going to weaken it, even if it is heated before attempting to tweak it back. A piece of carbon between the valve and seat is very plausible, had it happen a few times. If your mech can hear air hissing through the exhaust when he pressures up that cylinder then that is probably it.

[GusMcRae]

Gus, if you don't mind another opinion I would suggest just replacing that bent exhaust stud. If it is bent far enough to prevent installation of a nut, then it's bent enough to have been stressed. Bending it back is only going to weaken it, even if it is heated before attempting to tweak it back. A piece of carbon between the valve and seat is very plausible, had it happen a few times. If your mech can hear air hissing through the exhaust when he pressures up that cylinder then that is probably it.

Thanks for the advice. 
Mx got the nut on, without bending the stud.  He is a STUD for getting that done.  He loosened all exhaust studs and was able to create enough room to get it started. 
So there's still a chance we won't have to pull the cylinder.  He tried his trick of getting the valve to seat and it was a fail,,, messed up the rocker arm cover gasket so he ordered a new one.  Have to get that back on before we can run it to check out compression while engine is hot. 
RH main tire sidewall is not going to pass inspection.  These are Desser re-treads new in 2012.  I get so mad about tires,,,, tractor tires, irrigation pivot tires, and now airplane tires, practically new tread, sidewalls rotten!  Plane has spent damn few days/nights outside of a hanger, so they didn't rot after purchasing.  Desser must use some crappy cores and I got one of them.   Front tire is getting pretty worn, (did not replace it in 2012) so I'm getting new, all the way around and not using Desser.  LH main and existing front will keep for spares. 
Replacing alternator belt.
So far that's about it.

[Warbirdhog]

Have always had good tires from Wilkerson Aircraft Tires in Crewe Virginia. I have a F4F-3 Wildcat in the hangar with the same issue. Good tread and bad sidewalls, been inside but the first flight in 4 years was a ferry flight here for an inspection.

I'll have to keep that in mind when dealing with Desser again.

[GusMcRae]

If your mech can hear air hissing through the exhaust when he pressures up that cylinder then that is probably it.

This is the case.  Forgot to mention that.

[gotyacovered]

Thanks for the advice. 
Mx got the nut on, without bending the stud.  He is a STUD for getting that done.  He loosened all exhaust studs and was able to create enough room to get it started. 
So there's still a chance we won't have to pull the cylinder.  He tried his trick of getting the valve to seat and it was a fail,,, messed up the rocker arm cover gasket so he ordered a new one.  Have to get that back on before we can run it to check out compression while engine is hot. 
RH main tire sidewall is not going to pass inspection.  These are Desser re-treads new in 2012.  I get so mad about tires,,,, tractor tires, irrigation pivot tires, and now airplane tires, practically new tread, sidewalls rotten!  Plane has spent damn few days/nights outside of a hanger, so they didn't rot after purchasing.  Desser must use some crappy cores and I got one of them.   Front tire is getting pretty worn, (did not replace it in 2012) so I'm getting new, all the way around and not using Desser.  LH main and existing front will keep for spares. 
Replacing alternator belt.
So far that's about it.

i noticed a year or so ago wear on my tires seemed to be increasing at a faster than standard rate; which got me to looking at log books to see how old they were. i found that we switched less than 4 years ago from flight custom 3's to a lesser quality (cheaper) tire. from a time stand point FC 3's had outlasted the other good year tires by double we went back to them this year (from desser also)... flight custom 3's 6X600... mains were $218.30 each and tubes were 51.54 each... we went ahead and slapped one on the nose also... tough to take that hit but they (hopefully) will last twice as long--or longer.

my dad told me a long time ago... in regards to airplanes, you can pay me now, or you can pay me later... but you gonna pay!!!!

[gotyacovered]

This is the case.  Forgot to mention that.

this was the case with mine as well....

[GusMcRae]

Waiting on tires, they should be here today, last item. Then will fly to re-check compressions while hot. 

[gotyacovered]

Waiting on tires, they should be here today, last item. Then will fly to re-check compressions while hot. 

good luck!

[GusMcRae]

Then will fly to re-check compressions while hot.

Did this,,, compression came way up but still something's not right, still losing compression out the exhaust valve.  Investigating further and bringing in a crusty old mx that we're hoping can solve the mystery and resolve.  We have pulled the push rods to make sure someone along the way did not replace with the wrong part number as the push rods change depending on year manufactured, engine suffix, etc...  They are the right ones.  Exploring all options to resolve without pulling the cylinder.   Crusty old mx supposed to take a look this afternoon.

[GusMcRae]

Did this,,, compression came way up but still something's not right, still losing compression out the exhaust valve.  Investigating further and bringing in a crusty old mx that we're hoping can solve the mystery and resolve.  We have pulled the push rods to make sure someone along the way did not replace with the wrong part number as the push rods change depending on year manufactured, engine suffix, etc...  They are the right ones.  Exploring all options to resolve without pulling the cylinder.   Crusty old mx supposed to take a look this afternoon.

The verdict is in.  Valve guide has significant wear, causing play and subsequently not seating properly. 
And this was almost certainly caused by the missing exhaust nut,,, too much heat,,, (induction leak will wear out a valve guide prematurely as well,,, just fyi)  which all stems back to the botched replacement of #1 cylinder 2 years ago at annual. 
Live and learn. 
In a way, I'm glad we're pulling this cylinder that was installed by a less then dependable A&P.  At this point I'll be shocked if we find that the rings are even on there the right way. 
I will get the exhaust stud that was problematic replaced, as well as get the push rod tube seal installed properly. 
I'm down for at least a few weeks.

[gotyacovered]

gus... couldnt immediatley find your comments about your 430 screen/WAAS upgrade, but i saw this and immediatly thought of you... i am tired of spending my money so now i am going to try and spend yours 

seriously though, might be worth a look.

"Upgrade to an IFD540 and get a FREE Mode S Transponder w/ ADS-B OUT"

http://www.avidyne.com/landing/ifd540-free-adsb-aopa.asp

[GusMcRae]

Not spending that kind of money on this plane.  I'm even reconsidering the WAAS upgrade, fixing the cyl, and selling it.
However,,, when I go to looking at planes on TAP or wherever,  I change my tune pretty quick. 
This makes 4 cylinders pulled in less than 3 years(#1 twice for exhaust valve issues, #4 for oil getting past an improperly installed oil ring, #6 to replace a broken off exhaust stud that happened while working on #4), and that's provided we don't twist off any studs during this deal.
 

[gotyacovered]

Not spending that kind of money on this plane.  I'm even reconsidering the WAAS upgrade, fixing the cyl, and selling it.
However,,, when I go to looking at planes on TAP or wherever,  I change my tune pretty quick. 
This makes 4 cylinders pulled in less than 3 years(#1 twice for exhaust valve issues, #4 for oil getting past an improperly installed oil ring, #6 to replace a broken off exhaust stud that happened while working on #4), and that's provided we don't twist off any studs during this deal. 

haha! what was the cost? seems like selling your 430 (even non-waas) plus selling your current transponder would make for a pretty interesting cost dynamic... maybe not much more (if any) than the screen/waas upgrade... i didnt look at it though, just made some assumptions.

come on though... you gotta spend some money to make me feel betta;D

[GusMcRae]

haha! what was the cost? seems like selling your 430 (even non-waas) plus selling your current transponder would make for a pretty interesting cost dynamic... maybe not much more (if any) than the screen/waas upgrade... i didnt look at it though, just made some assumptions.

come on though... you gotta spend some money to make me feel betta;D

$14,???!  When I saw it was 5 digits I backed out of that website as quickly as possible. 

I think I'll make you feel better by the time I get this cyl issue resolved.
Not sure what a non-WAAS 430 with a near burned out screen and near dead memory battery is worth, but since I'd be the one selling it, I'm sure it wouldn't be much. 
$4K sounds cheap to upgrade it and not have to revamp the stack.

[GusMcRae]

haha! what was the cost? seems like selling your 430 (even non-waas) plus selling your current transponder would make for a pretty interesting cost dynamic... maybe not much more (if any) than the screen/waas upgrade... i didnt look at it though, just made some assumptions.

come on though... you gotta spend some money to make me feel betta;D

I gave this some more thought and read the fine print a little closer.  That particular one is a plug and play for a 530, but supposedly Avidyne has a plug and play for a 430.  However,,,, this deal required that you trade in your old transponder,,, So, basically it would be the $14,??? (which I see some sites say that this one is not available), or $16,??? minus the value of my non waas 430 with all of it's problems. 
So, I sent the 430 off today for the upgrade.  He said $3600 installed with the antenna swapping inlcuded. 
Also got the cylinder off this AM and shipped off for repair or exchange,,, depending on what they find besides the bad valve guide. 
Makes me mad all over again.     

[GusMcRae]

#1 Cyl repaired and arrived back last Fri (~$650).  Put it back on with A&P's assistance.  A&P had removed #3 and #5 exhaust valve springs to look and compare valve guide wear, so after putting #1 cyl back on, we were going to put the #3&5 valve springs back on and noticed 1 set (inner and outer spring for each) was about 1/2" shorter than the other.  So, we were thinking that when we shipped off the #1 for repair, we sent 2 intake spring sets, or 2 exhaust spring sets,,,, So I call Gibson in El Reno, tell him what the deal is,,, and he tells me they are exactly the same for an O-470.  He has seen some come from the factory with different springs, etc,,,  So anyway,,, we don't know which cyl the shorter spring has been on.  If it was the #1, then it came from Gibson in 2012.  If it was on #3 or 5, it has been on there since last overhaul and compressions were good on both of those and have been.  So confused,,,, and frustrated, and it sounds more and more like the A&P or shop who overhauled this engine last was a bit sketchy.
Waiting on new valve spring set to arrive to re-assemble and also need to finish tightening all exhaust manifold nuts,,, I did get them all started but have not tightened up yet,,, so I still have to get that done without twisting one off.  All intake is reassembled except for the crossover tube in the front.

[GusMcRae]

Here's a pic of a new valve spring set and the shorter set that we have no idea which cylinder it's been on. 
What kind of damage (if any) has been done by running with the wrong valve spring set?
Or would it just possibly have a weaker seat and possible loss of compression?

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Pistol Pete]

Here's a pic of a new valve spring set and the shorter set that we have no idea which cylinder it's been on. 
What kind of damage (if any) has been done by running with the wrong valve spring set?
Or would it just possibly have a weaker seat and possible loss of compression?

Gus,
It's impossible to know without checking them on a spring tester... There's only 3 things that matter with valve springs, assuming they actually fit.
1. Seat pressure
2. Open pressure
3. Coil bind.

The springs can look completely different but have the proper specs. The only way to know is to know the closed height, open height, then put it in a spring tester to check those pressures and see if there is any binding. Then check those values with the manufacturers specs.

The tester looks like an arbor press with a dial scale and a height gauge.

[Pistol Pete]

To follow up a bit, and this is purely speculation... I just don't see our low rpm engines needing much spring pressure. I would say that if the seat pressure is low, you could get valve bounce when it hits the seat.
With the cubic inches we run on such physically small engines, I would imagine the valves are very large and heavy, since the cylinders are very large... As compared to an automotive engine.

I have no clue what causes valve guide wear other than the geometry being off... Too short or too long pushrods. It causes the rocker arm to push sideways on the valve tip. The tips should have wear marks in the middle of the tips, equal distance from the edges (I'd assume). If it has lash caps, (caps that fit over the valve tips) then it should have equal wear there as well.

I'd check the pushrod lengths. And/or geometry

[GusMcRae]

The springs can look completely different but have the proper specs. The only way to know is to know the closed height, open height, then put it in a spring tester to check those pressures and see if there is any binding. Then check those values with the manufacturers specs.

Called Gibson and this is exactly what his shop people told him.  Said that both short and long springs were the proper specs and I didn't need to worry about them not looking the same.  Said he should have known this when I called him the first time telling him they were different sizes.

From what I'm told, valve guide wear can be caused by:
1) an induction leak, causing the engine to run lean, which causes it to run too hot.
2) exhaust manifold gasket leak which allows the heat to build up too close to the cylinder instead of disbursing it out the muffler  (missing exhaust manifold nuts being the case here)
3)being made from material that doesn't stand up to the normal wear,,, (manufacturers have changed what they make them out of)
There are probably other causes that I'm not aware of.

[Pistol Pete]

Called Gibson and this is exactly what his shop people told him.  Said that both short and long springs were the proper specs and I didn't need to worry about them not looking the same.  Said he should have known this when I called him the first time telling him they were different sizes.

From what I'm told, valve guide wear can be caused by:
1) an induction leak, causing the engine to run lean, which causes it to run too hot.
2) exhaust manifold gasket leak which allows the heat to build up too close to the cylinder instead of disbursing it out the muffler  (missing exhaust manifold nuts being the case here)
3)being made from material that doesn't stand up to the normal wear,,, (manufacturers have changed what they make them out of)
There are probably other causes that I'm not aware of.

All I know about is racing engines... I've never heard about excessive heat, I'd think that would burn a valve or piston before it caused any other damage. I'd assume the only valve guides that are worn out are on the exhaust??? The intake valve guides should never get overly hot since cool fresh air and fuel vapor is on it all the time.

One other thing. The height of the pivot point on the rocker arm is what causes rocker geometry to be off... Or the rocker arm ratio, length, etc... Not the pushrod length as I said earlier. I don't know what type of rocker assembly is on an airplane... If it's shaft mounted or stud mounted... It can be the rocker arm, the pushrods, or a combination of the two...

[GusMcRae]

All I know about is racing engines... I've never heard about excessive heat, I'd think that would burn a valve or piston before it caused any other damage. I'd assume the only valve guides that are worn out are on the exhaust???

I think it has to do with too much expansion due to the heat.
Assumption correct,,, only the exhaust valve guides were worn excessively.

I'm all back together, test flown Saturday.  Sunday had a 2.5 hour xc and then the return of a little less due to tailwind.
Then flew it down to the avionics shop for the re-install of the 430 WAAS today.  Buddy picked me up in an older Mooney M20C.  I like Mooneys, especially their speed.  However, makes me happy I don't have to crawl in and out of one on a regular basis.  I do like the room I have in the 182 and the ease of getting in and out of it.

[gotyacovered]

I think it has to do with too much expansion due to the heat.
Assumption correct,,, only the exhaust valve guides were worn excessively.

I'm all back together, test flown Saturday.  Sunday had a 2.5 hour xc and then the return of a little less due to tailwind.
Then flew it down to the avionics shop for the re-install of the 430 WAAS today.  Buddy picked me up in an older Mooney M20C.  I like Mooneys, especially their speed.  However, makes me happy I don't have to crawl in and out of one on a regular basis.  I do like the room I have in the 182 and the ease of getting in and out of it.

sounds like you are getting everything lined out. good to hear.

i think when cost, speed, load carrying capability, comfort are all factored in the 182 is a really hard plane to beat. it does none in a supurb fashion but all good.