The Eddie Sutton Dichotomy

[Pork Twain]

We've gone to two finals as well, 1994 and 1995.  Unless you believe Guv and there are three mystery finals out there that we made it to.

NCAA Tournament champions
1994

NCAA Tournament runner up
1995

NCAA Tournament Final Four
1941, 1945, 1978, 1990, 1994, 1995

NCAA Tournament Elite Eight
1941, 1945, 1949, 1958, 1978, 1979, 1990, 1991, 1994, 1995

NCAA Tournament Sweet Sixteen
1978, 1979, 1981, 1983, 1990, 1991, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996

NCAA Tournament appearances
1941, 1945, 1949, 1958, 1977, 1978, 1979, 1980, 1981, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2006, 2007, 2008

[GuvHog]

Too bad ES could not stay sober long enough to get all that talent to the finals. As much as I dislike the fact that ES stated he would rather crawl to another school than coach the Hogs, I dislike drunks even less.

I misunderstood the post, I thought the reference was to Final Fours. The answer is 2 and Nolan had both of them

[PonderinHog]

I misunderstood the post, I thought the reference was to Final Fours. The answer is 4 and Nolan had 2 of them

What year was the other one?

[GuvHog]

We've gone to two finals as well, 1994 and 1995.  Unless you believe Guv and there are three mystery finals out there that we made it to.

NCAA Tournament champions
1994

NCAA Tournament runner up
1995

NCAA Tournament Final Four
1941, 1945, 1978, 1990, 1994, 1995

NCAA Tournament Elite Eight
1941, 1945, 1949, 1958, 1978, 1979, 1990, 1991, 1994, 1995

NCAA Tournament Sweet Sixteen
1978, 1979, 1981, 1983, 1990, 1991, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996

NCAA Tournament appearances
1941, 1945, 1949, 1958, 1977, 1978, 1979, 1980, 1981, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2006, 2007, 2008

Thanks. I missed the 1990 one so Nolan had 3 Final Fours, went to the national Championship game twice and won one. Like I said he was the best men's basketball coach in Hog history. For now, Eddie gets the #2 spot but Mike Anderson has a good possibility of changing that.

When Eddie Sutton applied for the Arkansas job, he was strongly advised by his colleagues and closest friends to withdraw his name from consideration because at that time, the Arkansas job was considered a STEP DOWN from Creighton. That's just how far the program had sunk since the 40's. It was virtually non-existent at that point and Eddie turned it into a monster with a massive waiting list for tickets. Ask yourself this question. If when Eddie left, the program had been in as bad a shape is it was when he arrived, do you honestly believe Nolan would still have applied for the job??? The answer is no. Nolan took the job because Eddie made it a lucrative job.

[GuvHog]

What year was the other one?

What year was the other one?

I hit the wrong number. I meant to hit 2, Nolan had both of them.

[bigredone]

Yes Eddie did put Arkansas basketball on the map. When he beat UCLA in the NCAA tourney everybody took notice whether you want to admit or not, why you people are so hell bent on trying to diminish what Eddie did at Ark is quite frankly totally childish.

I see less people trying to diminish what he did than those that are embellishing. Conference championships will not get you in the Naismith unless you win more of them than anyone else has. Did Eddie set a record in the number of conference championships? If he did you have something to campaign on and it would be harder to see him not voted in.

He was great for Arkansas but in the national scene did not leave much of a mark. I am very glad that he coached here when he did.I am not slow enough to believe winning a SWC championship equals winning National Championships.

Putting things in perspective is not diminishing. If your whole world consists of Arkansas and OSU basketball then you can consider him one of the greats. When you look beyond those schools there are so many that were/are so much better that it is understandable that he may never get selected for the Naismith which is the overall basketball hall of fame.

[PonderinHog]

Not many coaches can claim that they took four different programs to the NCAA tournament.

[nextlevel]

I see less people trying to diminish what he did than those that are embellishing. Conference championships will not get you in the Naismith unless you win more of them than anyone else has. Did Eddie set a record in the number of conference championships? If he did you have something to campaign on and it would be harder to see him not voted in.

He was great for Arkansas but in the national scene did not leave much of a mark. I am very glad that he coached here when he did.I am not slow enough to believe winning a SWC championship equals winning National Championships.

Putting things in perspective is not diminishing. If your whole world consists of Arkansas and OSU basketball then you can consider him one of the greats. When you look beyond those schools there are so many that were/are so much better that it is understandable that he may never get selected for the Naismith which is the overall basketball hall of fame.

Sutton isn't the best coach in either Arkansas or OSU's history.

He isn't the best coach in Creighton's history.

He isn't the best coach in San Fransisco's history.

He may be the worst HC in Kentucky's history.

There is nothing to separate him from the pack of mediocrity.

[GuvHog]

I see less people trying to diminish what he did than those that are embellishing. Conference championships will not get you in the Naismith unless you win more of them than anyone else has. Did Eddie set a record in the number of conference championships? If he did you have something to campaign on and it would be harder to see him not voted in.

He was great for Arkansas but in the national scene did not leave much of a mark. I am very glad that he coached here when he did.I am not slow enough to believe winning a SWC championship equals winning National Championships.

Putting things in perspective is not diminishing. If your whole world consists of Arkansas and OSU basketball then you can consider him one of the greats. When you look beyond those schools there are so many that were/are so much better that it is understandable that he may never get selected for the Naismith which is the overall basketball hall of fame.

Eddie has more conference Championships than any coach in Hog history, that makes him #2. Nolan has 3 final Fours with 1 national championship so without a doubt he's #1.... for now. Mike Anderson may join the ranks of Arkansas' great men's basketball coaches before he's through.

[nextlevel]

Eddie has more conference Championships than any coach in Hog history, that makes him #2. Nolan has 3 final Fours with 1 national championship so without a doubt he's #1.... for now. Mike Anderson may join the ranks of Arkansas' great men's basketball coaches before he's through.

No one cares about regular season conference championships.

Its all about the tourney.

[bigredone]

Eddie has more conference Championships than any coach in Hog history, that makes him #2. Nolan has 3 final Fours with 1 national championship so without a doubt he's #1.... for now. Mike Anderson may join the ranks of Arkansas' great men's basketball coaches before he's through.

Now we are talking. Knowing that Nolan getting in did nothing to keep Eddie out can we discuss why Nolan got in? To me it helps explain why I think Eddie has trouble.

I think Nolan winning the NC in 94 and getting back to the championship game in 95 put him over the top. He also won the NJCAA and NIT championships but I don't think those put him in. He needed the 94 and 95 seasons to secure his place, without them he probably does not get in no matter how many conference tournaments or regular season conference championships he won.

Winning a conference championship is really important to the teams/fans of that conference. National tournaments are more important when being considered for national honors. I don't make the claim this is fair, it is what it is. That one game in 94 is more important than any 10 games of the season, it doesn't seem reasonable but it is what is remembered.

Eddie has some negatives, so does Nolan. Both won at a high percentage but neither had John Wooden types of numbers. Neither one got along with FB. Eddie's addiction may play a part in voters looking past him, it is probably unfair on their part.

I think the fact the rules were changed on hand checking may have given Nolan an edge because one of the questions about the Naismith HoF has to do with how did the person change the game. Nolan had hand checking, Guy Lewis pushed the legalization of the dunk. I don't recall anything changed as a result of Eddie. I don't think it was a huge factor, but they are looking at ways of narrowing down who gets enshrined.

Nolan won a NC and was National Runner Up the following year. Guy Lewis made two appearances in the NC game without winning one. Eddie never got to a NC game. I think that is the ultimate factor and since he no longer coaches I don't see him getting over that hill.

Eddie did get four teams to the NCAAs and that is laudable. Is it equal to getting to the NC game? I don't think it is but I don't speak for any of the voters. That is probably his best chance at ever getting in.

I honestly believe that if Eddie had at least gotten to one NC game he would be in, and I am almost certain he would have been in this year if he had won a single NC.

I also don't think being great at Arkansas is an automatic qualifier for the Naismith HoF.

[snortman]

Sutton isn't the best coach in either Arkansas or OSU's history.

He isn't the best coach in Creighton's history.

He isn't the best coach in San Fransisco's history.

He may be the worst HC in Kentucky's history.

There is nothing to separate him from the pack of mediocrity.

You really make me laugh Nextlevel

If Making the NCAA tourney 24 out of 28 times with Ark, UK and OSU is Mediocre, then I will take that anyday over what we have now. MA could not hold Eddie's clipboard, but he does make 20 times more than Eddie ever did.

By the way BCG was the worst coach ever at UK, Eddie took them to the NCAA 3 out of 4 years. We could only dream we had that kind of coach here.

[bigredone]

You really make me laugh Nextlevel

If Making the NCAA tourney 24 out of 28 times with Ark, UK and OSU is Mediocre, then I will take that anyday over what we have now. MA could not hold Eddie's clipboard, but he does make 20 times more than Eddie ever did.

By the way BCG was the worst coach ever at UK, Eddie took them to the NCAA 3 out of 4 years. We could only dream we had that kind of coach here.

Before you start comparing Mike and Eddie let Mike get his third season in here. It took Eddie 3 seasons to make the tournament at AR. If we don't make the NCAA this season then you have your chance to take a shot at Mike. Additionally not one poster has called for Mike's inclusion into the Naismith HoF. Bringing Mike up in this discussion on whether Eddie gets into the Naismith HoF is your attempt to argue just for the sake of argument.

Of course we could be brutally honest and admit Mike took a team to the Sweet 16 his second year as a head coach whereas it took until Sutton's 5th year as a head coach in the NCAA to make it that far.

On the pay scale all coaches make more now than they did when Eddie was here. They get paid ridiculous amounts these days. I am not sure why anyone would consider the pay difference between now and 29 years ago as any kind of factor.

The only reason I brought up BCG is that once upon a time certain posters on this board wanted him to coach at AR so bad they couldn't stand it. I am not naming any names.

Now that the facts have been brought out can we get back to whether Eddie ever gets voted into the Naismith?

Maybe someone should bring up a coach that made it in that is less deserving than Eddie. That would be something relevant to the discussion.

[GuvHog]

None of John Cheney's Temple teams ever made the Division I final four. They made it to the Elite Eight a couple of times and won some conference titles under him. His Division II record is pretty impressive though.

See, a coach doesn't have to make the Division I Final Four with a team to be worthy of induction.

[bigredone]

Surprisingly I have to agree with GuvHog. John Chaney was inducted 2001 while he was still coaching to top it off. The only thing he can claim that Eddie cannot is being the first African-American college coach to get 700 wins. Is that enough?

Looking at the induction criteria their board of trustees can remove any candidate who "has damaged the integrity of the game of basketball" from consideration. Could KY be held against Eddie on that point? Because we don't know who the voters are or how they vote we may never know.

John Chaney being in probably indicates that Eddie may have a chance at some point.

[snortman]

Before you start comparing Mike and Eddie let Mike get his third season in here. It took Eddie 3 seasons to make the tournament at AR. If we don't make the NCAA this season then you have your chance to take a shot at Mike. Additionally not one poster has called for Mike's inclusion into the Naismith HoF. Bringing Mike up in this discussion on whether Eddie gets into the Naismith HoF is your attempt to argue just for the sake of argument.

Of course we could be brutally honest and admit Mike took a team to the Sweet 16 his second year as a head coach whereas it took until Sutton's 5th year as a head coach in the NCAA to make it that far.

On the pay scale all coaches make more now than they did when Eddie was here. They get paid ridiculous amounts these days. I am not sure why anyone would consider the pay difference between now and 29 years ago as any kind of factor.

The only reason I brought up BCG is that once upon a time certain posters on this board wanted him to coach at AR so bad they couldn't stand it. I am not naming any names.

Now that the facts have been brought out can we get back to whether Eddie ever gets voted into the Naismith?

Maybe someone should bring up a coach that made it in that is less deserving than Eddie. That would be something relevant to the discussion.

Bigredone, I do agree with some of your comments but I have to correct you on one point, Eddie made it to the Final Four in year four at the U of A. I know I was there but I looked it up to make sure.

One other note I will say, back then they only took 32 teams to the tourney which made it a whole lot tougher to get in. The likes of UAB and MA might not have even made the field back then at 22-10 from a low rated conf.

I was just trying to make a point to Nextlevel since he has been so hellbent on crucifying Eddie Sutton, and he could not be more wrong.

[GuvHog]

Before you start comparing Mike and Eddie let Mike get his third season in here. It took Eddie 3 seasons to make the tournament at AR. If we don't make the NCAA this season then you have your chance to take a shot at Mike. Additionally not one poster has called for Mike's inclusion into the Naismith HoF. Bringing Mike up in this discussion on whether Eddie gets into the Naismith HoF is your attempt to argue just for the sake of argument.

Of course we could be brutally honest and admit Mike took a team to the Sweet 16 his second year as a head coach whereas it took until Sutton's 5th year as a head coach in the NCAA to make it that far.

On the pay scale all coaches make more now than they did when Eddie was here. They get paid ridiculous amounts these days. I am not sure why anyone would consider the pay difference between now and 29 years ago as any kind of factor.

The only reason I brought up BCG is that once upon a time certain posters on this board wanted him to coach at AR so bad they couldn't stand it. I am not naming any names.

Now that the facts have been brought out can we get back to whether Eddie ever gets voted into the Naismith?

Maybe someone should bring up a coach that made it in that is less deserving than Eddie. That would be something relevant to the discussion.

This will be Mike Anderson's 4th season as Hog head Basketball coach.

[bigredone]

Bigredone, I do agree with some of your comments but I have to correct you on one point, Eddie made it to the Final Four in year four at the U of A. I know I was there but I looked it up to make sure.

Eddie started his NCAA career at Creighton. He made the tourney and won one game in his fifth season there.

There is life outside of Arkansas.....lol

[nextlevel]

Before you start comparing Mike and Eddie let Mike get his third season in here. It took Eddie 3 seasons to make the tournament at AR. If we don't make the NCAA this season then you have your chance to take a shot at Mike. Additionally not one poster has called for Mike's inclusion into the Naismith HoF. Bringing Mike up in this discussion on whether Eddie gets into the Naismith HoF is your attempt to argue just for the sake of argument.

Of course we could be brutally honest and admit Mike took a team to the Sweet 16 his second year as a head coach whereas it took until Sutton's 5th year as a head coach in the NCAA to make it that far.

On the pay scale all coaches make more now than they did when Eddie was here. They get paid ridiculous amounts these days. I am not sure why anyone would consider the pay difference between now and 29 years ago as any kind of factor.

The only reason I brought up BCG is that once upon a time certain posters on this board wanted him to coach at AR so bad they couldn't stand it. I am not naming any names.

Now that the facts have been brought out can we get back to whether Eddie ever gets voted into the Naismith?

Maybe someone should bring up a coach that made it in that is less deserving than Eddie. That would be something relevant to the discussion.

They explain why Sutton doesn't deserve to be in the Naismith hall of fame at the same time they *think* they are making an argument for his inclusion.

Every discussion of Sutton being "great" is centered around a straw man being tore apart in some form.

Worst coach in Kentucky's history? Nuh-uh BCG coached there, but never had a losing season like Sutton, but by golly Sutton is better than BCG.

Sutton wasn't payed as much as so and so.

Sutton didn't coach at school as long as so and so.

etc.

If Eddie was deserving, the need to tear down others who have nothing to do with Sutton would not be needed...

Sutton isn't deserving.

[bigredone]

Obviously I pretty much agree with you on Eddie deserving to be in the Naismith, Next, but it doesn't mean that Eddie didn't make AR a "good" team while he was here. His career proves, to me, that he was never going to get AR a NC. He never got any of his teams to the final game.

I think it hurts his cause that he started his coaching life with a silver spoon, being a Henry Iba protege. "To whom much is given, much is required".

He had the best three AR kids at one time on his team and did not win the NC. The odds of another threesome like Moncrief, Brewer, and Delph coming along at the same time are not good. That team also had the role players that you would need if you were going to seriously challenge for a National Championship. It was exciting to win more than we lost but is that Naismith worthy?

I admit he was great for Arkansas but when you start looking nationally and internationally does Eddie really belong in that group of elite coaches? I don't see it but I am open to someone making a convincing argument that his career meant more than just being a tournament qualifier most years. I thought that John Chaney being in was evidence that Eddie should be in until I realized how important it is to be the first to do something. Chaney was the first African American to win 700 college games, that is pretty noteworthy. What did Eddie do first?

The Naismith looks for people who do exceptional things. Winning most of your games is not really exceptional compared to what the others have done. Eddie won at a .710 clip in the NCAA, Nolan won at .711. Eddie won something like 888 games but that only puts him at 17 overall on that list. If you look at winning percentage and narrow it down to coaches that won at least 600 he is only #26 on the list.

I will admit that Eddie's alcohol problems influence my thinking about him. I kind of feel like Gene Simmons about the whiny people whose lives are so awful that they must self medicate. I don't think that really influences the voters, though.

I can see why KY being in so much trouble by the time he left there might be used against him. It is hard for me to understand how someone that  is the face of the program could be so unaware of what his assistants and his son were doing. The only thing that comes to mind is his drinking and you can see where that takes my thinking.

I guess it all comes down to, what did Eddie do that no one else did before? He was definitely a good coach but I don't see "ELITE" when I picture him. What makes Eddie better that almost every other coach? Without National Championships he needs something.

[thirrdegreetusker]

We've gone to two finals as well, 1994 and 1995.  Unless you believe Guv and there are three mystery finals out there that we made it to.

NCAA Tournament champions
1994

NCAA Tournament runner up
1995

NCAA Tournament Final Four
1941, 1945, 1978, 1990, 1994, 1995

NCAA Tournament Elite Eight
1941, 1945, 1949, 1958, 1978, 1979, 1990, 1991, 1994, 1995

NCAA Tournament Sweet Sixteen
1978, 1979, 1981, 1983, 1990, 1991, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996

NCAA Tournament appearances
1941, 1945, 1949, 1958, 1977, 1978, 1979, 1980, 1981, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2006, 2007, 2008

This is interesting stuff. Thanks, PorkTwain.

Some comparisons:
Eddie: 11 seasons at UA
Nolan: 17 seasons at UA

NCAA appearances:
E: 9
N: 13

Consecutive NCAA appearances:
E: 9
N: 9


Some analysis:

When Eddie made his first NCAA tourney with the Hogs in 76-77, the tournament was only 32 teams. His 75-76 team got left out with a 19-9 record (.678). The tournament expanded rapidly, and was 64 teams in Eddie's last two seasons here. 

When Nolan made his first NCAA tourney with the Hogs in 87-88, the tournament was 64 teams. That team got in with a 20-13 record (.606). The tournament was 64 or more teams every year Nolan was here.

[nextlevel]

There is no comparison, Naismith voters do not have a list of Nolan and Eddie side by side and that is what is the determining factor.

Nolan did something that had never been done in basketball winning a JUCO National Title, a NIT title, and the NCAA tournament. It didn't matter the name of the school where the accomplishments took place, what did matter is that the accomplishments did take place and in fact are the high point for three different programs.

While Nolan wasn't the first HC to use a full court strategy on both sides of the ball or try to speed up the tempo creating fast breaks when ever possible, he did influence the game in a positive fashion, for the game, in that the best period for college basketball, according to viewers, was when the game was played at a fast pace.

Nolan's philosophy of the game traces back to John McClendon's philosophy even if he wasn't directly influenced by McClendon (I don't know that Nolan has ever been asked).

The real travesty of the Naismith HOF has been McClendon not being inducted as a Coach instead as a "contributor".

Now, if you want to talk about Sutton's actual contribution to the game you will find a philosophy that has in effect taken away enjoyment of watching the games by the fans and viewers. You will find that coaches who employ this style of play, today, can trace their tree back to Sutton or the tree he is part of. Besides his personal failures off the court (drug abuse, alcoholism, etc) you have his on the court failure of never separating him from the pack and contributing only to the decay of the college game as other schools have employed coaches influenced by him for whatever reason, winning a NC not being one of them. You will find most of these schools striving for mediocrity, which they accomplished with Sutton's disciples.

[GuvHog]

I agree that the Naismith voters won't compare the 2 coaches, they'll evaluate each coach on their own accomplishments.

I still say since john Cheney was inducted with a record far less impressive than Eddie's, Eddie will eventually be inducted too.

[nextlevel]

I agree that the Naismith voters won't compare the 2 coaches, they'll evaluate each coach on their own accomplishments.

I still say since john Cheney was inducted with a record far less impressive than Eddie's, Eddie will eventually be inducted too.

Cheney's record is not "far less impressive" than Eddie's, its far more impressive.

If McClendon isn't getting in as a HC, neither is Eddie.

Stop trying to tear down those who are deserving in an effort to justify Eddie's inclusion, instead, give a reason for Eddie's inclusion such as what did Eddie do that changed the game? What did he accomplish that no others have in the game as a HC?

The answer to the above is nothing which is why he isn't in the NHOF.

[bigredone]

Guv, not wanting to argue but some would really think the first AA coach to win 700 college games is impressive.

Offering to kill Cal is impressive too but not HoF worthy.

[nextlevel]

Guv, not wanting to argue but some would really think the first AA coach to win 700 college games is impressive.

Offering to kill Cal is impressive too but not HoF worthy.

Cheney did so much more during his career.

I keep mentioning McClendon as if race was a factor to the NHOF, He would be in as a HC not as a "contributor".

Race isn't a factor, a person's impact on the game is...

[ChicoHog]

Sutton wasn't crawling away from Arkansas or its fans, as Sutton has always showed his love everytime he mentioned the Arkansas Razorback fanbase.  Nolan, on the other hand, has not.  He had a horse shot and suddenly we're a bunch of racist bastards.  If that's so, then everywhere I've lived in this State, always in the Country and owning horses and cows, and how my fair share shot as has my neighbors,  I'm surrounded by racists, and I'm white.

Nolan blames everything on race, and maybe at times its so.  But probably more than half its not.  I went to Wilmar School,  it was 99% black, 1% white.  I've seen the reverse of everything Nolan said, but instead of crying about it, I embraced it and wouldn't have changed where I went to school for nothing.  I'll get roasted for this because everyone on this Board always thinks this is a lie when someone brings it up, but my best friend is indeed black, has been since the 1st grade.  He was my best man, I was his.  Since our school didn't take a senior trip, my parents took me and my best friend to Gulfport for a week, talk about some racists, they even turned us away at one restaurant in some small town said they were full, 20 people in there at best when it seated at least 50. 

Nolan deserved getting in the NHOF, but this crap spewed about Eddie needs to stop.  Eddie put Arkansas on the map, a Football School that actually played in a barn.  In a few years, Sutton had it to where Broyles had the Barn updated and then again to where it would almost seat 10,000, with another 10,000 on the waiting list for tickets, but Broyles was meddling and Eddie was drinking.  He had had enough of Broyles, he took the first train out to get away from him, just as Hatfield did.

Quite possibly the best post in the history of Jump Ball.  thanks 1highhog.

[Pork Twain]

Sutton wasn't crawling away from Arkansas or its fans, as Sutton has always showed his love everytime he mentioned the Arkansas Razorback fanbase.  Nolan, on the other hand, has not.  He had a horse shot and suddenly we're a bunch of racist bastards.  If that's so, then everywhere I've lived in this State, always in the Country and owning horses and cows, and how my fair share shot as has my neighbors,  I'm surrounded by racists, and I'm white.

Nolan blames everything on race, and maybe at times its so.  But probably more than half its not.  I went to Wilmar School,  it was 99% black, 1% white.  I've seen the reverse of everything Nolan said, but instead of crying about it, I embraced it and wouldn't have changed where I went to school for nothing.  I'll get roasted for this because everyone on this Board always thinks this is a lie when someone brings it up, but my best friend is indeed black, has been since the 1st grade.  He was my best man, I was his.  Since our school didn't take a senior trip, my parents took me and my best friend to Gulfport for a week, talk about some racists, they even turned us away at one restaurant in some small town said they were full, 20 people in there at best when it seated at least 50. 

Nolan deserved getting in the NHOF, but this crap spewed about Eddie needs to stop.  Eddie put Arkansas on the map, a Football School that actually played in a barn.  In a few years, Sutton had it to where Broyles had the Barn updated and then again to where it would almost seat 10,000, with another 10,000 on the waiting list for tickets, but Broyles was meddling and Eddie was drinking.  He had had enough of Broyles, he took the first train out to get away from him, just as Hatfield did.

This post is so full of BS, it is like Guv posted it

[snortman]

Quite possibly the best post in the history of Jump Ball.  thanks 1highhog.

Absolutely on the spot. Some people can't see the forest for the trees

[nextlevel]

This post is so full of BS, it is like Guv posted it

Revisionist history is the best history to the apologetic...

Still waiting on the thing that separates Sutton from the pack of mediocrity, I know I want get it, but still waiting...

[GuvHog]

Cheney's record is not "far less impressive" than Eddie's, its far more impressive.

If McClendon isn't getting in as a HC, neither is Eddie.

Stop trying to tear down those who are deserving in an effort to justify Eddie's inclusion, instead, give a reason for Eddie's inclusion such as what did Eddie do that changed the game? What did he accomplish that no others have in the game as a HC?

The answer to the above is nothing which is why he isn't in the NHOF.

Cheney's D1 record is far less impressive than Eddie's. D1 basketball is light years above D II basketball.

[GuvHog]

This post is so full of BS, it is like Guv posted it

Then point out all of the BS. It looks absolutely correct.

[nextlevel]

Cheney's D1 record is far less impressive than Eddie's. D1 basketball is light years above D II basketball.

Cheney's time as a HC must not be "far less impressive" as he is in the NHOF and Sutton is not.

Apparently the NHOF voters were not impressed with Sutton sitting on San Fransisco's bench long enough to eclipse a win mark that was surpassed by others a season later.

[bigredone]

This is just a possibility but maybe the voters don't put much stock into getting into the NCAAs at four schools because he was forced out at 3 of them? Broyles was on Eddie about drinking, KY was about cheating, and OSU he left because of booze and pills. Maybe they think more highly of someone that can stay at a school and get it done in one place?

[GuvHog]

This is just a possibility but maybe the voters don't put much stock into getting into the NCAAs at four schools because he was forced out at 3 of them? Broyles was on Eddie about drinking, KY was about cheating, and OSU he left because of booze and pills. Maybe they think more highly of someone that can stay at a school and get it done in one place?

Actually he retired from OSU, where they named their court after him, to seek help for his problem and then later served as the interim Head coach at San Francisco for one year. There have been a few times that he's been seen setting next to Nolan at Hog basketball games.

[rzrbackramsfan]

Ahhh I wish we could talk about something else.

[bigredone]

Guv he had a wreck while DUI, he had to go. Even OSU has some standards for their coaches. Did he not resign because of drugs and alcohol?

I am again just trying to look at things the way the voters must have. You are convinced he is one of the greatest coaches ever so don't you wonder why he got overlooked?

"Sitting next to Nolan"? Could just be early in the morning but I don't understand what that was put in for.

[Pork Twain]

Then point out all of the BS. It looks absolutely correct.

Racism in Arkansas, especially in the 80's.  Animals getting shot all the time...  Black versus white issues being comparable.  Eddie putting Arkansas on the map.  Eddie deserving to be in anything but the drunk HoF.  Eddie not crawling away from Arkansas and its fans

[bigredone]

Revisionist history is the best history to the apologetic...

Still waiting on the thing that separates Sutton from the pack of mediocrity, I know I want get it, but still waiting...

I won't use the word mediocre, but what is that one thing that just screams NHoF in Eddie's career? I just don't see it. Apparently he knew his career wasn't there either which is why he coached at the last school trying to get enough wins to get "there".

This should be more of an OSU concern. The biggest part of his career was spent there and that was his last "real" job.

[GuvHog]

Racism in Arkansas, especially in the 80's.  Animals getting shot all the time...  Black versus white issues being comparable.  Eddie putting Arkansas on the map.  Eddie deserving to be in anything but the drunk HoF.  Eddie not crawling away from Arkansas and its fans

Racism in Arkansas during the 80's was considerably mild compared to what went on in the 40's, 50', and 60's. I have an African American friend who was born in 1930. He could tell you about some things that happened back then that would make you sick. It made me sick. Nolan was treated horribly during his young years and because of that he came to Arkansas with a chip on his shoulder. When someone is treated as badly as he was in his younger years, it affects them for life.

Black vs white issues are comparable now but they weren't during the years I mentioned.

It was wrong for someone to shoot Nolan's horse but it was just as wrong for Nolan to insist that it was racially motivated when he had no way of know if that was true. For all he knew, someone could have been hunting, shot at a wild animal and accidentally hit his horse. Even then they should have apologized to Nolan and offered to compensated him for the dead horse.

Eddie did indeed put the Arkansas men's basketball program back on the map. Since the mid forties (30 years before Eddie's arrival) it had sunk to the point that it was basically nonexistent and Eddie turned it into a nationally relevant monster with a 10,000 name waiting list for tickets.

As has been explained in detail before (and ignorantly ignored) Eddie shouldn't have made the "Crawl" statement and later apologized in tears to the Arkansas people for having said it. It wasn't a shout at the University of Arkansas, it's team, or it's fans. It was meant for only 2 people. Frank Broyles and Orville Henry. Mike Irwin confirmed this.

IMHO Eddie does deserve to be inducted into the Naismith Hall of Fame and I believe it will eventually happen. Nolan deserved to be inducted first and rightfully was.

[GuvHog]

Guv he had a wreck while DUI, he had to go. Even OSU has some standards for their coaches. Did he not resign because of drugs and alcohol?

I am again just trying to look at things the way the voters must have. You are convinced he is one of the greatest coaches ever so don't you wonder why he got overlooked?

"Sitting next to Nolan"? Could just be early in the morning but I don't understand what that was put in for.

No, he retired, they named their court after him, and they hired his son.

[nextlevel]

No, he retired, they named their court after him, and they hired his son.

About his son... fruit didn't fall far from the tree.

You don't retire and then take over another school's team mid-season...

[GuvHog]

About his son... fruit didn't fall far from the tree.

You don't retire and then take over another school's team mid-season...

Eddie did. He retired and later was interim HC at San Francisco for 1 year.

That was his Youngest son. His oldest is clean and still coaching.

[Pork Twain]

Racism in Arkansas during the 80's was considerably mild compared to what went on in the 40's, 50', and 60's.

You don't say...  Let's not pretend like it is not still going on today and that it was amazing in the 80's.  Ask Nolan what it was like being a black HC at Arkansas.  What your black "friend" says doesn't hold much water with your past sources.

No Guv, still not comparable.

Eddie was mediocre, that is all.

Well as long as the ole drunk cried when he apologized.

[nextlevel]

You don't say...  Let's not pretend like it is not still going on today and that it was amazing in the 80's.

No Guv, still not comparable

While the discussion has nothing to do with the topic at hand, it is interesting how the same who condemn Nolan for not seeing past his real or perceived racism that took place towards him while at the UofA think everyone else should look past the real alcohol, substance abuse, cheating, and spitting in the face of an Arkansas fanbase on his way out that occurred during Sutton's career.

The should try to sway the NHOF voters, because as of now, Nolan's past wasn't held against him, his career put him in the NHOF, while Sutton's career is proving to not be NHOF worthy.

[Pork Twain]

Eddie did. He retired and later was interim HC at San Francisco for 1 year.

That was his Youngest son. His oldest is clean and still coaching.

No he quit after a drunken scandal and then retired after the fact.  At least make an attempt to get historical facts correct.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=2329109

http://www.ocolly.com/sports/article_a21f21cc-8c5c-11e3-b6d3-0017a43b2370.html

[bigredone]

Guv loves the Suttons and I have no issue with that. It is clouding his judgement. At least he is not one those "OMG Nolan is black, he can't coach" sub humans we see from time to time.

I think Sean is actually the oldest son not that it matters either way.

[TomBigBeeHog]

Racism in Arkansas during the 80's was considerably mild compared to what went on in the 40's, 50', and 60's. I have an African American friend who was born in 1930. He could tell you about some things that happened back then that would make you sick. It made me sick. Nolan was treated horribly during his young years and because of that he came to Arkansas with a chip on his shoulder. When someone is treated as badly as he was in his younger years, it affects them for life.

Black vs white issues are comparable now but they weren't during the years I mentioned.

It was wrong for someone to shoot Nolan's horse but it was just as wrong for Nolan to insist that it was racially motivated when he had no way of know if that was true. For all he knew, someone could have been hunting, shot at a wild animal and accidentally hit his horse. Even then they should have apologized to Nolan and offered to compensated him for the dead horse.

Eddie did indeed put the Arkansas men's basketball program back on the map. Since the mid forties (30 years before Eddie's arrival) it had sunk to the point that it was basically nonexistent and Eddie turned it into a nationally relevant monster with a 10,000 name waiting list for tickets.

As has been explained in detail before (and ignorantly ignored) Eddie shouldn't have made the "Crawl" statement and later apologized in tears to the Arkansas people for having said it. It wasn't a shout at the University of Arkansas, it's team, or it's fans. It was meant for only 2 people. Frank Broyles and Orville Henry. Mike Irwin confirmed this.

IMHO Eddie does deserve to be inducted into the Naismith Hall of Fame and I believe it will eventually happen. Nolan deserved to be inducted first and rightfully was.

[snortman]

You don't say...  Let's not pretend like it is not still going on today and that it was amazing in the 80's.  Ask Nolan what it was like being a black HC at Arkansas.  What your black "friend" says doesn't hold much water with your past sources.

No Guv, still not comparable.

Eddie was mediocre, that is all.

Well as long as the ole drunk cried when he apologized.

Yeah, lets ask Nolan about racism, I'm sorry you didn't have to ask Nolan he would tell you over and over and over again about it until it became obvious that Nolan was a Whiny ass bitch. It consumed him so much he stopped recruitiing, Which caused our program to go into the ditch. Talk about Mediocre, that was the definition of Nolan last six years.

As far as Coach Eddie Sutton being mediocre, nothing could be further from the truth. He might of had some personel issues but he at least tried keeping it to himself instead trying this "Whoa is me act" to everyone including the media.   

[Pork Twain]

Yeah, lets ask Nolan about racism, I'm sorry you didn't have to ask Nolan he would tell you over and over and over again about it until it became obvious that Nolan was a Whiny ass bitch. It consumed him so much he stopped recruitiing, Which caused our program to go into the ditch. Talk about Mediocre, that was the definition of Nolan last six years.

As far as Coach Eddie Sutton being mediocre, nothing could be further from the truth. He might of had some personel issues but he at least tried keeping it to himself instead trying this "Whoa is me act" to everyone including the media.   

Ever had to deal with racism on a continuous basis?

Eddie's issues were a choice, what Nolan had to deal with was not.  Never even making it to the big game, crawling away from one program to be run away from two more, mediocre.