The Eddie Sutton Dichotomy

[thirrdegreetusker]

One of the problems with that path of discussion is perspective.  Trying to have a discussion about race relations in the 80s and about people who became adults in the 40s US or 60s US is difficult.  You have to try and think about their backgrounds and influences and how they viewed things and how things were in the 80s.  What happened in those decades seem unimaginable now.  Some may pretend events like St Louis this week gives them a feel for it but it doesn't.  I can't relate to Frank or Nolan in this context.  I know from my own experience of being in the first integrated generation in the South, going to school with the first integrated generation and seeing things like prom suspended so mixed couples couldn't go or making sure a black football captain didn't walk with the white homecoming queen, that the 80s was much different than now.  What Frank did or said or Nolan did or said was from their perspective.  Frank may not have intentionally acted in a racist way to hurt Nolan.  Nolan's anger he let out especially when he had the big stage seemed offputting, ungrateful and out of place to some.  But its hard to judge him for it.  These accusations of racism from some seem to be too rooted in today's ultra sensitive pc generation and is too simple. 

I hate rehashing Nolan and Frank's breakup.  It was complicated - too complicated to break down to just race.  Frank interfered with his coaches black or white.  He ran off a legendary basketball coach before Nolan.  He feuded with someone with high morals in Hatfield.  He told a NC winning coach on the edge of rebuilding our football program from the Hatfield era who to hire for assistants.  He influenced Nutt in how he ran his offense.  Nolan was fortunate as he left him alone once he started winning other than giving him at the time great facilities.  I understand some of Nolan's resentment from this.  He had won a NC and been to 3 F4's yet Broyles ignored him while focusing on the football coaches.  But this is a football school and fan base, albeit one of the most balanced in the South with other sports, and Broyles was a football coach.  Plus Nolan had our basketball at a high level.  Frank tried meddling with Nolan early on when he was trying to build his program.  Nolan didn't like that either. 

Another factor you have to consider is the NCAA investigation which only found minor infractions but did lead to a negative spotlight on the program.  Nolan never seemed to show an interest in his players education and publicly stated it.  The NCAA investigation finding academic fraud heightened this negative.  It wasn't an image a university wanted to have. 

The biggest factor is Nolan's program went on the decline.  Much more went into Nolan's firing than race.  It's unfair to both to try and break it down to that which is what some do and they blame Frank.

very good post



Another paradox:

Frank is often pronounced guilty of "meddling" with coaches, but NRs sworn testimony showed just the opposite. Frank left him alone, once NR started his great run of success.

I am pretty sure NR testified they would go months at a time without having a meaningful conversation. I once had a boss like that, and LOVED it. I knew the job better than he, and I appreciated him leaving me alone.

This "inattention" to NR also coincided with BIG trouble in the football program, if you look back on it.

[GuvHog]

vv

The difference being that Nolan actually had a basis for what he said, that was acknowledged in Court-  and he never went to work for a direct competitor.  If you really need the examples,  I strongly recommend you look into his lawsuit, and the opinion issued by William R. Wilson.

Just a few tastes:

"Coach Richardson believes without any doubt in his mind that he was fired because of his race and because he spoke out on that subject. Although I found against him on those points, his belief was clearly not unreasonable."

While he said there was not enough evidence of racial bias or violation of free speech as the basis of his firing ,  but that  "the record is a long way from devoid of incidents which could cause him to hold these beliefs."

That is to say, that it was entirely rational for Nolan to understand his firing in a discriminatory context because of his experiences at Arkansas, as revealed in testimony, even if his own tirade created a detrimental impact on his employer that was large enough that would justify a firing on its own grounds.   The lawsuit wouldn't let the judge punish Arkansas for things it did outside of the firing.

People treat Nolan's lawsuit like it was tossed out as being a baseless claim about a pattern of discrimination ; it wasn't.   He lost solely due to the fact his own press conference blowout gave the school a reasonable basis for firing him, that would have been justification in any environment, separate from their history of discriminatory behavior.   

Nolan lost the case because in that era and today one has to prove their firing was racially motivated but Nolan couldn't prove that. What the Judge said is Nolan believed he was fired because of his race and because he spoke out on the subject and it was reasonable for him to believe that but the Judge didn't believe it and ruled against him. In essence, their was racial bias at the U of A but Nolan couldn't prove that's why he was fired. You're trying to read something in to that decision that wasn't there.

[thirrdegreetusker]

He did nothing to change the game of basketball. He coached the exact style that the other major coaches of his day did. He left a mark at a couple of schools and should be remembered at those but honestly I don't see him as leaving a mark on the game of college basketball.

So let me get this straight. If MA, for example, wins a truckload of games, lots of SEC titles, and goes to a couple of final fours, using the style he learned from NR, MA does not deserve HOF because "he did nothing to change the game"?

Conversely, if an innovative coach "changed the game" but never won much, does he get in HOF?

[ErieHog]

vv
Nolan lost the case because in that era and today one has to prove their firing was racially motivated but Nolan couldn't prove that. What the Judge said is Nolan believed he was fired because of his race and because he spoke out on the subject and it was reasonable for him to believe that but the Judge didn't believe it and ruled against him. In essence, their was racial bias at the U of A but Nolan couldn't prove that's why he was fired. You're trying to read something in to that decision that wasn't there.

No, GUV.  You really don't get it;  you never have-- you keep trying to rewrite the history to act like Nolan was never mistreated.   The only finding regarding his firing was that there was a cause that justified it, regardless of the historical pattern of discrimination against Nolan while at Arkansas.  Nolan made his lawsuit moot with his actions.

The judge certainly believed Nolan had been discriminated against- after all, he called Nolan's reasoning a long way from being devoid of incidents which could cause him to hold this belief -  that's a finding that Nolan had a history of encountering incidents that would make a reasonable person believe discrimination would be in play.

We wronged Nolan, unlike Eddie.   Nolan, when he wronged us back, got terminated justifiably.   He didn't go to a competitor, he didn't live on 60 Minutes badmouthing the university, he didn't go to ESPN and bash us at every opportunity.   His cooperation with authors who wrote on his time at Arkansas is probably the most directly inflammatory he has been since the lawsuit was settled-- and he didn't try to have the case tried in the media, either.

If you can't see why Eddie is worse, there is no helping you. 

[PonderinHog]

Give Eddie a break!  He'd been drinkin'.

[GuvHog]

No, GUV.  You really don't get it;  you never have-- you keep trying to rewrite the history to act like Nolan was never mistreated.   The only finding regarding his firing was that there was a cause that justified it, regardless of the historical pattern of discrimination against Nolan while at Arkansas.  Nolan made his lawsuit moot with his actions.

The judge certainly believed Nolan had been discriminated against- after all, he called Nolan's reasoning a long way from being devoid of incidents which could cause him to hold this belief -  that's a finding that Nolan had a history of encountering incidents that would make a reasonable person believe discrimination would be in play.

We wronged Nolan, unlike Eddie.   Nolan, when he wronged us back, got terminated justifiably.   He didn't go to a competitor, he didn't live on 60 Minutes badmouthing the university, he didn't go to ESPN and bash us at every opportunity.   His cooperation with authors who wrote on his time at Arkansas is probably the most directly inflammatory he has been since the lawsuit was settled-- and he didn't try to have the case tried in the media, either.

If you can't see why Eddie is worse, there is no helping you. 

The judge didn't say that and Nolan badmouthed the University for years after he was fired.

Eddie never badmouthed the University after he left nor did he badmouth it whit his "Crawl to Kentucky" statement.

[bigredone]

Thirddegree, if Nolan did not win the NC he most likely would not be in. If Eddie won 800 faster than anyone else that would be exceptional but just hanging around a really long time isn't. Taking several different schools to the tournament would be the only other thing that might put Eddie in at some  point.  Again a good career but nothing that screams HoF.

And no that would not get MA in anything other than a lower level HoF. The body of work is supposed to be exceptional. MA getting the all time win record at Arkansas would not be worthy of the Naismith HoF without actually winning a NC or two. If he got the all time win record for the NCAA that would be exceptional on a HoF level.

And just let me say it would not hurt me if Eddie got in, I can just see what the voters are looking at and can understand why he is not. His time at Arkansas was great for us, but do you really think that was HoF worthy? Maybe you are one of those people that things they all should get in because they participated like kids getting trophies today?

[ErieHog]

The judge didn't say that and Nolan badmouthed the University for years after he was fired.

It is a direct quote from the opinion Guv.  He most explicitly *did* say it.

Eddie never badmouthed the University after he left nor did he badmouth it whit his "Crawl to Kentucky" statement.

Unlike Eddie's Crawl statement,  Nolan's was justified.   Eddie's crawl was turning his back on Arkansas, despite the PTB looking the other way through his DUI and drinking issues.

[PonderinHog]

The judge didn't say that and Nolan badmouthed the University for years after he was fired.

Eddie never badmouthed the University after he left nor did he badmouth it whit his "Crawl to Kentucky" statement.

It is a direct quote from the opinion Guv.  He most explicitly *did* say it.

Unlike Eddie's Crawl statement,  Nolan's was justified.   Eddie's crawl was turning his back on Arkansas, despite the PTB looking the other way through his DUI and drinking issues.

Obviously, one of y'all is FOS.

[ErieHog]

Obviously, one of y'all is FOS.

Richardson v. Sugg -United States District Court, Eastern District of Arkansas, Western Division.   S'there in black and white.

[bigredone]

Richardson v. Sugg -United States District Court, Eastern District of Arkansas, Western Division.   S'there in black and white.

I would have told you a month ago Guvhog was a lost cause because he believed that Broyles was God incarnate. You might be gradually winning him over, he does now admit that Broyles was biased against Nolan. Keep up the good fight.

[PonderinHog]

Richardson v. Sugg -United States District Court, Eastern District of Arkansas, Western Division.   S'there in black and white.

I rest my case. +1

[GuvHog]

(A)It is a direct quote from the opinion Guv.  He most explicitly *did* say it.

(B)Unlike Eddie's Crawl statement,  Nolan's was justified.   Eddie's crawl was turning his back on Arkansas, despite the PTB looking the other way through his DUI and drinking issues.

(A) That's the way you read it. I read it differently.

(B) We will just have to agree to disagree about Eddie Sutton and leave it at that.

[GuvHog]

I would have told you a month ago Guvhog was a lost cause because he believed that Broyles was God incarnate. You might be gradually winning him over, he does now admit that Broyles was biased against Nolan. Keep up the good fight.

Frank Broyles God Incarnate??? Not even close and I've never said he was. Frank did a lot of Great things for the U of A but he also made a lot of big mistakes.

[Inhogswetrust]

So let me get this straight. If MA, for example, wins a truckload of games, lots of SEC titles, and goes to a couple of final fours, using the style he learned from NR, MA does not deserve HOF because "he did nothing to change the game"?

Conversely, if an innovative coach "changed the game" but never won much, does he get in HOF?

Great points and questions.

[ErieHog]

(A) That's the way you read it. I read it differently.

(B) We will just have to agree to disagree about Eddie Sutton and leave it at that.

In what invented language do those words not mean what they mean in English?

[thirrdegreetusker]

Maybe you are one of those people that things they all should get in because they participated like kids getting trophies today?

Interesting example, as applied to me. I have made my living running large public recreational sports programs, including youth sports. When I got here, every kid got a ribbon at the end of the year. No more. Waste of money. But I think most coaches and parents do the trophy thing, anyway.

As for Eddie, he built the UA program from LESS THAN nothing, to a perennial top 25 team. When he left, we had finished in the top 25 six years in a row.

When Eddie got here, our game court was surrounded on three sides by dirt. Attendance was minuscule.  Student could just walk up, show an ID and get in for free.

[GuvHog]

In what invented language do those words not mean what they mean in English?

The Judge said he could understand why Nolan believed as he did but the Judge never said he agreed with Nolan nor did he ever say that if Nolan had not dared them to give him his money and fire him he would've had a case.

[ErieHog]

The Judge said he could understand why Nolan believed as he did but the Judge never said he agreed with Nolan nor did he ever say that if Nolan had not dared them to give him his money and fire him he would've had a case.

GuvLand must be a magical place.

[bigredone]

As for Eddie, he built the UA program from LESS THAN nothing, to a perennail top 25 team. When he left, we had finished in the top 25 six years in a row.

When Eddie got here, our game court was surronded on three sides by dirt. Attendance was miniscule.  Student could just walk up, show an ID and get in for free.

And I agree with you that this was great for Arkansas but do the voters place as much value to it as we do? I am not saying he should be left out, I am trying to explain the reasons I think he was left out.

[thirrdegreetusker]

And I agree with you that this was great for Arkansas but do the voters place as much value to it as we do? I am not saying he should be left out, I am trying to explain the reasons I think he was left out.

I understand. Never won the big one, and stumbled a few times in his personal life.

[wholehog92]

Why is it that every time a thread that is complimentary of Eddie Sutton is started someone has to go off and act like people who like Eddie are saying he's more deserved of a Naismith H of F induction than Nolan when nothing could be further from the truth??? Nolan fully deserved his induction and I'm very glad it happened. I still believe Eddie will be inducted to that H of F someday but that has absolutely NOTHING to do with Nolan deserving it and being inducted. Let's stop this comparison nonsense.

But yet you'd forgive Nolan if he apologized for filing the lawsuit against the U of A.

By stop it, did you mean everyone else?

[Jim Harris]

KY should have been the high point of his career but he had the worst modern record at the basketball school of the SEC. His son was involved in getting KY put on probation, you can believe that Eddie was not involved if you want but apparently the voters disagree.

Assistant coach Dwayne Casey was involved in getting UK put on probation and served a show cause penalty for it as well. Sutton's son was playing for Kentucky, he didn't send the $$$$ out west.

[Jim Harris]

I also listened to Eddie's acceptance press conference at UK. Yes, it was public but everyone who knew about the situation with Eddie and Frank knew full well that "crawl to Kentucky" statement was meant solely for Frank Broyles and no one else. Those who didn't know it weren't paying attention. Eddie's language said exactly that.

Here's where we differ Erie, I forgave Eddie a long time ago when he apologized for that statement and I would just as quickly forgive Nolan if he apologized for filing the lawsuit.

It was also meant for Orville, not just Frank. Eddie said that.

[nextlevel]

My intolerance of Eddie Sutton has little to do with his basketball pedigree.  I know I will never want to see him in the HoF, but that's because I'm a Razorback fan.    You don't forgive crawling on his knees to Kentucky, even if he apologized for it every day for the rest of his life.

Its amazing how the Sutton people twist his disparaging comments towards the school, alumni, and fans as being directed only at Frank Broyles while ignoring his alcoholism and drug dependency issues while at Arkansas, while also ignoring his lack of a NC but trump up him watching a few games on USF's bench to pass win a win mark that has since been left in the dust by multiple coaches.

All the while taking an issue of employment discrimination that had only to do with his superiors and twisting it as a personal insult to the average fan in Nolan's case.

Losers support other losers and Sutton is the biggest loser supported on this board since BCG has drank himself to the unemployment line... 

[nextlevel]

It was also meant for Orville, not just Frank. Eddie said that.

Nixon vehemently claimed to not be a "crook" to the American people...

[nextlevel]

Assistant coach Dwayne Casey was involved in getting UK put on probation and served a show cause penalty for it as well. Sutton's son was playing for Kentucky, he didn't send the $$$$ out west.

Sutton's son was only taking entrance exams for recruits.

[bigredone]

Of course Eddie would have no need to know what an assistant was doing, who would ever expect a head coach to keep up  with what was going on. I guess maybe the curtain of heavy drinking could be an explanation.

And yes Sean Sutton was caught taking tests for recruits.

Explicitly Eddie's fault? Maybe not but definitely enough to color a neutral parties view of him when voting for the HoF.

I sincerely doubt he ever gets in because he doesn't have one thing exceptional enough to overcome the issues at KY. If he had won a NC that might have put him in.

[GuvHog]

Of course Eddie would have no need to know what an assistant was doing, who would ever expect a head coach to keep up  with what was going on. I guess maybe the curtain of heavy drinking could be an explanation.

And yes Sean Sutton was caught taking tests for recruits.

Explicitly Eddie's fault? Maybe not but definitely enough to color a neutral parties view of him when voting for the HoF.

I sincerely doubt he ever gets in because he doesn't have one thing exceptional enough to overcome the issues at KY. If he had won a NC that might have put him in.

Does a father always know what his son does and doesn't do??? No. There were a lot of things I did when I was that age that my parents never knew about. Sean was a consenting adult at the time so he alone was responsible for his own behavior.  Did it reflect badly on Eddie??? Yes, but that doesn't mean he knew what Sean was doing when he was doing it.

[ErieHog]

Does a father always know what his son does and doesn't do??? No. There were a lot of things I did when I was that age that my parents never knew about. Sean was a consenting adult at the time so he alone was responsible for his own behavior.  Did it reflect badly on Eddie??? Yes, but that doesn't mean he knew what Sean was doing when he was doing it.

Sure.  Its not like Eddie got paid to pay attention to what was going on with his basketball team, had a compliance staff that told him exactly what his kids needed to do to remain/become eligible, and had unlimited access to their academic records.

Even if you buy the 'Poor Eddie was blindsided, I tell you, by that nefarious son of his!',  it, at *best* argues for staggeringly incompetent management.

GuvLand is a special, special place.

[mhuff]

My intolerance of Eddie Sutton has little to do with his basketball pedigree.  I know I will never want to see him in the HoF, but that's because I'm a Razorback fan.    You don't forgive crawling on his knees to Kentucky, even if he apologized for it every day for the rest of his life.

I don't know about HoF consideration. I am thankful for the triplets and Sutton's efforts. It put Arkansas on the map in BB. His crawling to KY. statement never made sense to me. I mean why say anything. I never understood that. But how many of us everyday open our mouths when we should keep them shut.

[bigredone]

Does a father always know what his son does and doesn't do??? No. There were a lot of things I did when I was that age that my parents never knew about. Sean was a consenting adult at the time so he alone was responsible for his own behavior.  Did it reflect badly on Eddie??? Yes, but that doesn't mean he knew what Sean was doing when he was doing it.

Guv I know that you are in protect Eddie at all costs modes at all times but did you get a vote? I didn't and I suspect no one that has posted here did either. He also had problems at AR not knowing that at least one of his players was getting paid for a job that he didn't have to show up for. To me that seems like too many instances (including KY) of him having no clue what was going on with his team and assistant coaches for him to really have no clue.

You are definitely not neutral on the issue, all I am trying to do is point out what someone without a dog in the fight would be thinking while considering him for the HoF. I can see why he would be passed over. There is nothing that screams "exceptional" in Eddie's history (nationally) and a lot of questionable activities.

Was he great for Arkansas in his day? Sure, but does that matter to the rest of the country? Probably not. Did he even do a passable job at KY? A resounding "NO!" And again, he was pretty good at OSU. Then he went to a nothing college to hang around until he eventually hit a good win total but it took him a long time. Nothing exceptional. Pretty good does not normally get you national accolades. He was not innovative, he did not win the big one, he did not win at an exceptional pace.

[GuvHog]

Guv I know that you are in protect Eddie at all costs modes at all times but did you get a vote? I didn't and I suspect no one that has posted here did either. He also had problems at AR not knowing that at least one of his players was getting paid for a job that he didn't have to show up for. To me that seems like too many instances (including KY) of him having no clue what was going on with his team and assistant coaches for him to really have no clue.

You are definitely not neutral on the issue, all I am trying to do is point out what someone without a dog in the fight would be thinking while considering him for the HoF. I can see why he would be passed over. There is nothing that screams "exceptional" in Eddie's history (nationally) and a lot of questionable activities.

Was he great for Arkansas in his day? Sure, but does that matter to the rest of the country? Probably not. Did he even do a passable job at KY? A resounding "NO!" And again, he was pretty good at OSU. Then he went to a nothing college to hang around until he eventually hit a good win total but it took him a long time. Nothing exceptional. Pretty good does not normally get you national accolades. He was not innovative, he did not win the big one, he did not win at an exceptional pace.

The College Basketball Hall of Fame voters disagreed with you.

[bigredone]

Guv the big HoF might someday put him in too. Sadly for you Nolan made it already.

I am not against Eddie getting in, by the way, I am just putting out things that are currently keeping him out. He was great for Arkansas in his day and I don't blame him for getting away from that awful AD that was a great football coach. I know you must agree with me on that right.....

[snortman]

Losers support other losers and Sutton is the biggest loser supported on this board since BCG has drank himself to the unemployment line... 

This might be the biggest Crok of S**T I have ever read on this board. WoW Just Wow.

You should grateful to Eddie and what he brought the Uof A in Basketball. Some of the best times of my life.

[GuvHog]

Guv the big HoF might someday put him in too. Sadly for you Nolan made it already.

I am not against Eddie getting in, by the way, I am just putting out things that are currently keeping him out. He was great for Arkansas in his day and I don't blame him for getting away from that awful AD that was a great football coach. I know you must agree with me on that right.....

Not sad at all. I'm thrilled that Nolan was inducted into the Naismith Hall of Fame, it was well deserved. I still believe Eddie's time will come though. It is possible to like both coaches and appreciate what both have done for the U of A mens basketball program, you see.

[bigredone]

Not sad at all. I'm thrilled that Nolan was inducted into the Naismith Hall of Fame, it was well deserved. I still believe Eddie's time will come though. It is possible to like both coaches and appreciate what both have done for the U of A mens basketball program, you see.

Like I said, I am not against Eddie but I can see what is keeping him out. There is nothing that screams Naismith HoF in his career. There is nothing that automatically keeps him out, either. He was not as bad as say BCG.

[GuvHog]

Like I said, I am not against Eddie but I can see what is keeping him out. There is nothing that screams Naismith HoF in his career. There is nothing that automatically keeps him out, either. He was not as bad as say BCG.

True. I don't believe BCG ever made it to the Elite 8. Eddie had some Final Fours on his resume'.

[Jim Harris]

Nixon vehemently claimed to not be a "crook" to the American people...

are you saying you believe Sutton did not dislike Orville in the latter days of his UA tenure? I would have to disagree with you. He said his problems were with Frank and with Orville, and he said this even before crawling to Kentucky, as well as afterward. But yes, he eventually regretted the whole thing.

I will also disagree with your assessment that Sutton "was the biggest loser" or whatever that crap was up above. Guy had troubles like all of us, and had moments he probably regretted that few if any on here know about, and frankly there were times he could be just outright strange or awkward in some social settings, but he sure as hell was not a loser.

[nextlevel]

This might be the biggest Crok of S**T I have ever read on this board. WoW Just Wow.

You should grateful to Eddie and what he brought the Uof A in Basketball. Some of the best times of my life.

What exactly did Sutton bring to the You of A outside of coke in the locker room?

Final Four? Nope.

SWC Championship? Nope.

Mediocrity  doesn't get one into the HOF.

[snortman]

What exactly did Sutton bring to the You of A outside of coke in the locker room?

Final Four? Nope.

SWC Championship? Nope.

Mediocrity  doesn't get one into the HOF.

Your hatred of man is what pitiful

Eddie brought Arkansas Basketball to the forefront of athletics at U of A when basketball was just and after thought.

I guess going 16-0 in SWC sucked for you and I'm sure that defeat of NC and Dean Smith  with Michael Jordan just absolutely was disgusting in your eyes but go ahead and trash him if it gives you some kind of comfort.

I'm done with your grade school antics

[nextlevel]

Your hatred of man is what pitiful

Eddie brought Arkansas Basketball to the forefront of athletics at U of A when basketball was just and after thought.

I guess going 16-0 in SWC sucked for you and I'm sure that defeat of NC and Dean Smith  with Michael Jordan just absolutely was disgusting in your eyes but go ahead and trash him if it gives you some kind of comfort.

I'm done with your grade school antics

Hatred?

Only facts.

Sutton has never elevated a program to a new level, all the programs he coached at had previously achieved equal levels of success or exceeded his best level of success without him.

He is, however, the only HC in the past 90 years to have a losing season while at Kentucky, if you want to claim that to be impressive and HOF worthy, then go ahead.

Sutton's teams won a few games, some bigger than others, never competed in or won the big game.

[GuvHog]

What exactly did Sutton bring to the You of A outside of coke in the locker room?

Final Four? Nope.

SWC Championship? Nope.

Mediocrity  doesn't get one into the HOF.

Eddie led 1 Hog team to the Final Four and 2 to the Elite 8.

[dhornjr1]

Eddie led 1 Hog team to the Final Four and 2 to the Elite 8.

At Arkansas, he had one Final Four, one Elite Eight, and two Sweet Sixteens.

He also had some embarrassing first round exits:

The #8 Razorbacks losing to unranked Wake Forest in '77.

The #12 Razorbacks losing to unranked Kansas State in '82.

The #8 Razorbacks losing to unranked Virginia in '84.

[snortman]

Eddie led 1 Hog team to the Final Four and 2 to the Elite 8.

He also led OSU to the Final four

[snortman]

Hatred?

Only facts.

Sutton has never elevated a program to a new level, all the programs he coached at had previously achieved equal levels of success or exceeded his best level of success without him.

He is, however, the only HC in the past 90 years to have a losing season while at Kentucky, if you want to claim that to be impressive and HOF worthy, then go ahead.

Sutton's teams won a few games, some bigger than others, never competed in or won the big game.

So I guess Nolan winning 1 big game is all it takes because that's all he did using use your analogy. Nobody cares about JC or NIT that's for losers. Gee I guess Eddie was loser.

I would like to know what Sidney and Marvin and Boot and Big Joe and Alvin think about your profound statement. I know they would laugh there butts off at your attempt to discredit Coach Sutton

Sorry Eddie Nextlevel has called it.

[bigredone]

What sets Eddie apart from his coaching peers? What about his career screams Naismith HoF? He is in the college level HoF but did his career really have that kind of impact on the game?

He was great at Arkansas and definitely should be in any Arkansas sports HoF. I just don't see him at a "national" or "world" level. Outside of the schools he coached at I can see him being left out. With the teams he had at Arkansas there really needed to be at least a championship game appearance if not a win.

[GuvHog]

What sets Eddie apart from his coaching peers? What about his career screams Naismith HoF? He is in the college level HoF but did his career really have that kind of impact on the game?

He was great at Arkansas and definitely should be in any Arkansas sports HoF. I just don't see him at a "national" or "world" level. Outside of the schools he coached at I can see him being left out. With the teams he had at Arkansas there really needed to be at least a championship game appearance if not a win.

Eddie had several SWC titles under his belt.

[bigredone]

Ok, Guv, is winning the SWC enough for you? Honest question did he win more of them than any other coach? If so maybe that could make his record stand out from the crowd. It may just be my old age setting in but I don't remember many people excited by SWC basketball, at least nationally.

Ballentine hitting a shot he wasn't supposed to take and Reed hitting from 49 feet are what I remember and they were not in conference.

I don't care what happens/happened at OSU but I know he didn't win it all there. Did he win the little 8 a record number of times?

KY was not a high point for him.

I guess what I am asking is what makes him one of the most notable coaches ever at any level? I look at his career and see a pretty good one but not exceptional. Throw in the alcohol abuse and problems at KY and I can see voters not being excited about him.

I don't see anything that would cause anyone to be upset by if he did manage to sneak in. He didn't bet on basketball or take steroids.

[SouthSide Johnny]

The next level of stupidity is mind boggling Eddie Sutton is regarded as one of great basketball minds and strategist and built 2 programs from Virtually nothing.

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