The Eddie Sutton Dichotomy

[TeedupHigh]

Quote from a post - "Nolan never seemed to show an interest in his players education and publicly stated it.  The NCAA investigation finding academic fraud heightened this negative.  It wasn't an image a university wanted to have."

Seems Nolan was not the only coach to slack off on education, CBB has the team focused on education as well as football unlike the former staff....Giving credit when credit is due!

[Big Nasty 34]

Nolan only had like 2 guys actually graduate while they played for him. Some have come back yes, I know.

[nextlevel]

He also led OSU to the Final four

OSU has more NCs without Eddie than with, same is true for every school he coached at on the D1 Level.

The same failed logic some are trying to use to show Eddie taking programs from "nothing" to "contenders" could be used to say Houston Nutt took the Arkansas football program from "nothing" to "contenders".

The above is only true if you ignore the history of the program and only look at the prior tenure to Eddie, except Kentucky where Eddie was able to take them from "contenders" to "nothing" which is impressive as he is the only HC that has been able to do so in a century.

[GuvHog]

OSU has more NCs without Eddie than with, same is true for every school he coached at on the D1 Level.

The same failed logic some are trying to use to show Eddie taking programs from "nothing" to "contenders" could be used to say Houston Nutt took the Arkansas football program from "nothing" to "contenders".

The above is only true if you ignore the history of the program and only look at the prior tenure to Eddie, except Kentucky where Eddie was able to take them from "contenders" to "nothing" which is impressive as he is the only HC that has been able to do so in a century.

Other than one era many years ago where a Hog basketball team was seriously competitive until some of the players were killed in an accident on old Hwy 71, Arkansas basketball was pretty well non existent before Eddie's arrival.

[nextlevel]

Other than one era many years ago where a Hog basketball team was seriously competitive until some of the players were killed in an accident on old Hwy 71, Arkansas basketball was pretty well non existent before Eddie's arrival.

Razorback Football was pretty well non existent before Houston's arrival.

Failed logic = failed logic.

[snortman]

Razorback Football was pretty well non existent before Houston's arrival.

Failed logic = failed logic.

I'm sorry Guv but I guess it's your turn to argue with next level down x 10

I sure Frank and Lou would say otherwise

[nextlevel]

I'm sorry Guv but I guess it's your turn to argue with next level down x 10

I sure Frank and Lou would say otherwise

Arkansas had as many final fours before Sutton in a similar length of time as to as far as you are having to reach back to Broyles and Holtz to discredit Nutt from taking Arkansas from "nothing" to a contender.

When Houston showed up, DWRRS was barely more than a glorified high school stadium, he changed that and made the need to upgrade the stadium, so really by using the same logic need to trump up Sutton shows that Nutt did more for his program as he was what made the facilities upgrades needed, not the next guy a decade after he was gone...

[bigredone]

Just did some fact checking on his KY years and found that Casey was cleared of any involvement.

The NCAA considered giving KY the death penalty by the time Eddie was done. That type of thing leaves a mark.

Sutton gets to blame Broyles for Norton getting a no show job. Did Frank help him recruit to KY too?

[Jim Harris]

Just did some fact checking on his KY years and found that Casey was cleared of any involvement.

The NCAA considered giving KY the death penalty by the time Eddie was done. That type of thing leaves a mark.

Sutton gets to blame Broyles for Norton getting a no show job. Did Frank help him recruit to KY too?

Yes, Dwane Casey had his 5-year show cause penalty rescinded by the NCAA, coincidentally around the time Emory Worldwide and Casey settled the lawsuit Casey had brought on the company. The NCAA was smart enough to figure out it would also lose anything Casey brought upon it.
So, who knows how those 50-dollar bills ended up in the Emory package that magically opened in transit. There are even conspiracy theorists in and around UK that believe it was setup by boosters to get rid of Sutton.
I believe it was Sheffield Nelson that got the blame for Norton getting an Arkla Gas car to drive around Okolona, not Frank.
But I get your point: You think Eddie was slimy as snail snot.

[bigredone]

It doesn't matter what I think, I don't get a vote. I suspect no one posting here does either.

I am pointing out things that explain why he may not be so highly regarded outside of 3 schools.

When you look at the total package do you really see one of the greatest  of all time which is what the Naismith HoF is supposed to be about?

What I do know is that Sutton was a drunk. Frank did not like drunks thus Eddie crawled to KY because he was incapable of walking.

[snortman]

It doesn't matter what I think, I don't get a vote. I suspect no one posting here does either.

I am pointing out things that explain why he may not be so highly regarded outside of 3 schools.

When you look at the total package do you really see one of the greatest  of all time which is what the Naismith HoF is supposed to be about?

What I do know is that Sutton was a drunk. Frank did not like drunks thus Eddie crawled to KY because he was incapable of walking.

Still one of the best coaches ever no matter how much you try to cut him down with your inmature comments

[GuvHog]

Razorback Football was pretty well non existent before Houston's arrival.

Failed logic = failed logic.

False. Arkansas' football tradition is well known but was really put on the map under Frank Broyles head coaching. The only thing that can be said about Hooty is plain and simple. He was a John White mistake.

[GuvHog]

Arkansas had as many final fours before Sutton in a similar length of time as to as far as you are having to reach back to Broyles and Holtz to discredit Nutt from taking Arkansas from "nothing" to a contender.

When Houston showed up, DWRRS was barely more than a glorified high school stadium, he changed that and made the need to upgrade the stadium, so really by using the same logic need to trump up Sutton shows that Nutt did more for his program as he was what made the facilities upgrades needed, not the next guy a decade after he was gone...

Okay, List the Final Four years Arkansas had before Sutton's arrival.

BTW, the plans for the expansion of RRS were already in place before Hooty arrived.

[bigredone]

Still one of the best coaches ever no matter how much you try to cut him down with your inmature comments

Name one thing that he did better than anyone else? If you were presenting his case to the voters what is his selling point?

His time at Arkansas was great for us, but he was eclipsed by the very next coach. KY has more negative associated with him than positive. Did he achieve things at OSU that no one has ever done?

I grew up during his tenure at Arkansas. I loved the Triplets, that is when my interest in basketball started. It wouldn't hurt my feelings a bit if he were to get in but I fully understand why he has not been voted into the big Hall of Fame. To me it is clear that he is the second best coach ever at Arkansas but he is nowhere near the top of coaches at all levels of basketball anywhere. He had a lot of good numbers, but they were not numbers that have not  been eclipsed by other coaches. The voters want something that makes him stand out and it apparently isn't there.

He has been associated, whether right or wrong, with more than one NCAA investigation. He is known to have had alcohol/drug problems, he lost two jobs because of it. He had a losing season at KY of all places.

Why is this even debated on Hogville? The biggest part of his career was at OSU in the little 8 and little 12. He is/was a cowboy.

[bigredone]

This is from someone pushing for Sidney Moncrief to get in the Naismith HoF. This is aimed at players but the same consideration would be used for coaches. Change the word player to coach and explain what Sutton did to deserve induction.

"What impact did the player have on basketball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way? Was his college and/or international career especially noteworthy?"

[snortman]

This is from someone pushing for Sidney Moncrief to get in the Naismith HoF. This is aimed at players but the same consideration would be used for coaches. Change the word player to coach and explain what Sutton did to deserve induction.

"What impact did the player have on basketball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way? Was his college and/or international career especially noteworthy?"

Who gives a crap about Whether he changed the fundamentals of the game. All I know is that he won multiple conf. titles at Arkansas and OSU and even won 2 SEC conf titles with Kentucky total of 9 titles betwwen them. Made huge news by beating reigning NC UCLA in the Big dance and NC at Pine Bluff with maybe the greatest collection of College players ever.

His 800 wins plus with multipe conf champioships and 2 Final Fours is plenty for me. He will eventually get in at some point. He was too good of coach not to.

[Inhogswetrust]

What exactly did Sutton bring to the You of A outside of coke in the locker room?

Final Four? Nope.

SWC Championship? Nope.

Mediocrity  doesn't get one into the HOF.

Your research grade is: F

Here are his Championships:

Regional Championships – Final Four (1978, 1995, 2004
SWC Regular Season Championship (1977, 1978, 1979, 1981, 1982)
Southwest Conference Tournament Championship (1977, 1979, 1982)

[Inhogswetrust]

The next level of stupidity is mind boggling Eddie Sutton is regarded as one of great basketball minds and strategist and built 2 programs from Virtually nothing.

He actually built one program completely from nothing since he was the FIRST coach of mens basketball at the school. Granted it was at a junior colleges but he had a pretty good record there. 84 and 14 for three years as head coach of Southern Idaho JC. Starting a brand new program anywhere and having a record like that in its first three years is impressive at ANY level. I guess Nextlevel doesn't know what level means............................

[Inhogswetrust]

Ok, Guv, is winning the SWC enough for you? It may just be my old age setting in but I don't remember many people excited by SWC basketball, at least nationally.

I bet the majority of Houston Cougars, Texas Longhorns, even some SMU Mustangs and definitely Razorbacks from back then would disagree with that.

[Inhogswetrust]

Razorback Football was pretty well non existent before Houston's arrival.

Failed logic = failed logic.

Don't try to be funny it isn't your best feature..................................

[SouthSide Johnny]

He actually built one program completely from nothing since he was the FIRST coach of mens basketball at the school. Granted it was at a junior colleges but he had a pretty good record there. 84 and 14 for three years as head coach of Southern Idaho JC. Starting a brand new program anywhere and having a record like that in its first three years is impressive at ANY level. I guess Nextlevel doesn't know what level means............................

Virtually nothing is NOT completely from nothing! Frank Broyles and Myron Roderick would say the same and have.   

[bigredone]

Apparently the voters have a different view and that trumps anything we think.

Again it would not hurt me in the least if he got in, I am just willing/able to put myself in the voters shoes and look at him without my fan glasses on.

And I still don't understand why it should be such a big deal on the Hog fan site what happens to a coach who spent most of his career at OSU.

[bigredone]

I bet the majority of Houston Cougars, Texas Longhorns, even some SMU Mustangs and definitely Razorbacks from back then would disagree with that.

Just looked at the National Championships for the SWC and I don't see any. It is a good thing those teams can get excited because I guarantee the rest of the country wasn't concerned with the SWC in basketball. Houston made the final game two times in a row but other than that nothing.

Guy Lewis from those Houston teams barely got in with the two NC games that he lost and five Final Fours. This is the type of thing that barely got him in the Naismith Hall of Fame:
"As a coach, he was known for championing the once-outlawed dunk, which he characterized as a "high percentage shot", and for clutching a brightly colored red-and-white polka dot towel on the bench during games. Lewis was a major force in the racial integration of college athletics in the South during the 1960s, being one of the first major college coaches in the region to actively recruit African-American athletes."

They like people who made a difference. If Guy Lewis took 27 years to get in Eddie probably doesn't have much hope.

Note that I do not claim Eddie was average, he was a very good coach. I suspect that the voters do not consider him "great" and I can see why they see him the way they do. There are probably too many coaches that had better success with the system that he coached for him to be considered exceptional. Again, it would not bother me in the least to be proven wrong.

[Inhogswetrust]

Just looked at the National Championships for the SWC and I don't see any. It is a good thing those teams can get excited because I guarantee the rest of the country wasn't concerned with the SWC in basketball. Houston made the final game two times in a row but other than that nothing.

Guy Lewis from those Houston teams barely got in with the two NC games that he lost and five Final Fours. This is the type of thing that barely got him in the Naismith Hall of Fame:
"As a coach, he was known for championing the once-outlawed dunk, which he characterized as a "high percentage shot", and for clutching a brightly colored red-and-white polka dot towel on the bench during games. Lewis was a major force in the racial integration of college athletics in the South during the 1960s, being one of the first major college coaches in the region to actively recruit African-American athletes."

They like people who made a difference. If Guy Lewis took 27 years to get in Eddie probably doesn't have much hope.

Note that I do not claim Eddie was average, he was a very good coach. I suspect that the voters do not consider him "great" and I can see why they see him the way they do. There are probably too many coaches that had better success with the system that he coached for him to be considered exceptional. Again, it would not bother me in the least to be proven wrong.

If you don't think that basketball pundits across the nation back then didn't think highly of those teams back then then there is nothing left to be said. They were good teams and well thought of across the country.

[bigredone]

Making progress. Those were good teams back in the SWC but not great. They did not win the big games when it counted.

Were they great for Arkansas fans? Hell yes, I loved them. Unfortunately I am not a HOF voter from the northeast or I would have Sidney in. During Eddie's heyday it was the Big East and ACC that dominated and outside of Houston no one from the SWC could get to the NC game. Sad but true.

[thirrdegreetusker]

Who votes on the Naismith HOF? Reporters? Coaches?

[Pork Twain]

Why is it that every time a thread that is complimentary of Eddie Sutton is started someone has to go off and act like people who like Eddie are saying he's more deserved of a Naismith H of F induction than Nolan when nothing could be further from the truth??? Nolan fully deserved his induction and I'm very glad it happened. I still believe Eddie will be inducted to that H of F someday but that has absolutely NOTHING to do with Nolan deserving it and being inducted. Let's stop this comparison nonsense.

Why are you comparing ES to NR.  Nolan actually did something and won it all.  All ES did was crawl his drunk butt to Kentucky.  I would much rather see Pete Rose in the MLB Hall of Fame.

[snortman]

Why are you comparing ES to NR.  Nolan actually did something and won it all.  All ES did was crawl his drunk butt to Kentucky.  I would much rather see Pete Rose in the MLB Hall of Fame.

Yeah and all NR did was embarrass Ark to no end with his lunatic lawsuit. He got exactly what he deserved when you call your bosses out on National TV. At Least Eddie remarks were solely aimed at Frank

[GuvHog]

Why are you comparing ES to NR.  Nolan actually did something and won it all.  All ES did was crawl his drunk butt to Kentucky.  I would much rather see Pete Rose in the MLB Hall of Fame.

I DIDN'T compare them, I said they both should be inducted into the Naismith Hall of fame.

Anyone who would ignore the fact that Eddie turned a program that was nothing into a monster with a massive waiting list for tickets has very little credibility.

[Pork Twain]

Yeah and all NR did was embarrass Ark to no end with his lunatic lawsuit. He got exactly what he deserved when you call your bosses out on National TV. At Least Eddie remarks were solely aimed at Frank

There was a lot more to it than that.  I am only addressing why I believe ES should not come close to the HoF though.  He did nothing to be worthy unless there is a special induction for drunks that would rather crawl to another team than coach for the Hogs.

[Pork Twain]

I DIDN'T compare them, I said they both should be inducted into the Naismith Hall of fame.

Anyone who would ignore the fact that Eddie turned a program that was nothing into a monster with a massive waiting list for tickets has very little credibility.

Why do you continue to compare the two?  They have nothing to do with each other.

[bigredone]

Dearest Guv, sometimes it is not stated as either or. There might be an explanation for why one did or did not get in. I happen to be one that thinks winning a NC probably grabs the attention of voters a little better than conference championships. Hell I pointed out earlier how long it took Guy Lewis to get in with 5 Final Fours and 2 of those they made it to the championship game. Eddie never got to the final game.

[snortman]

There was a lot more to it than that.  I am only addressing why I believe ES should not come close to the HoF though.  He did nothing to be worthy unless there is a special induction for drunks that would rather crawl to another team than coach for the Hogs.

No there's not. NR totally took U of A to the woodshed that lowly day and all of America saw it. It's one thing to do it to yourself and it's quite another to blame everyone else like NR did. Your totally right. NR had it all until he bit the hand that fed him. Ungrateful is what I call it.

[nextlevel]

At Least Eddie remarks were solely aimed at Frank

And Orville.

And the Razorback fanbase.

Nolan is a Naismith HOF coach while Sutton is not.

[GuvHog]

And Orville.

And the Razorback fanbase.

Nolan is a Naismith HOF coach while Sutton is not.

No, his remarks were not aimed at the Razorback fan base. I admire your loyalty to Nolan and agree that he's the #1 men's basketball coach in Hog history but to act like Eddie accomplished nothing is the height of stupidity. Eddie laid the foundation for Nolan and then Nolan took the program to a whole different level.

[nextlevel]

No, his remarks were not aimed at the Razorback fan base. I admire your loyalty to Nolan and agree that he's the #1 men's basketball coach in Hog history but to act like Eddie accomplished nothing is the height of stupidity. Eddie laid the foundation for Nolan and then Nolan took the program to a whole different level.

I never said Eddi accomplished "nothing" I said he had not accomplished anything that had not been done before or eclipsed since him at any of his jobs on the D1 level.

He coached at 4 programs that won NCs, yet he was unable to win one, or get a runner up participation ribbon.

Sutton would crawl to the Naismith HOF, then buy a ticket if he wanted inside, for a tour...

[GuvHog]

I never said Eddi accomplished "nothing" I said he had not accomplished anything that had not been done before or eclipsed since him at any of his jobs on the D1 level.

He coached at 4 programs that won NCs, yet he was unable to win one, or get a runner up participation ribbon.

Sutton would crawl to the Naismith HOF, then buy a ticket if he wanted inside, for a tour...

I'm still waiting on that list of Final Fours the Hogs made it to before Sutton's arrival....

Eddie had 1 Final Four and 2 Elite Eights while at Arkansas.

[nextlevel]

I'm still waiting on that list of Final Fours the Hogs made it to before Sutton's arrival....

Eddie had 1 Final Four and 2 Elite Eights while at Arkansas.

You think Eddie's coaching leading to a loss against a one man squad from the MVC was Arkansas' first final four?

I guess the two previous final fours Arkansas went to "don't count".

Nor would the 4 elite 8s before Eddie's arrival.

By this kind of logic, Arkansas Football didn't exist before Houston Nutt.

[bigredone]

The truth is Eddie couldn't win big with the greatest players in the history of the program. He won the SWC when it was only Big East and ACC teams winning National Championships. Houston was the only SWC team to even get to the championship game in the modern era of basketball.

Anyone that thinks that Eddie gets big national recognition from winning conference titles is fooling themselves, especially the SWC titles. As bad as I hate the little 12 those titles carry more weight than the old SWC.

The coaches that get in aren't just pretty good. They have to have something extra to offer. I pointed out Guy Lewis earlier and I have been avoiding bringing up Nolan because some think that it is a competition between them.

Nolan getting in has nothing to do with whether Eddie will get in, by the way. They were not in competition for a slot, and most of the people who bring Nolan up are trying to point out that conference championships are not what put him in.

Eddie won a number of conference titles but no one is claiming that he won more than anyone else. He went to 3 Final Fours losing in the first game in all three appearances. No chance at a National Title.  He did coach good defense but so did Knight, Crum, and Smith who all had far more success.

I was proud when Eddie was coach here but he is clearly only the second best coach in our history. I was unhappy with the way Eddie left until it became clear just how awful FB was as AD years later. I can understand why Eddie left when he did, and to be honest because of Nolan's success I am darned glad he did leave when he did.

[Pork Twain]

No there's not. NR totally took U of A to the woodshed that lowly day and all of America saw it. It's one thing to do it to yourself and it's quite another to blame everyone else like NR did. Your totally right. NR had it all until he bit the hand that fed him. Ungrateful is what I call it.

There is a lot more to Nolan's story than that.  Did he lash out at the end?  Sure he did, but it is deeper.  ES offered to crawl to an opposing school and never won it all here.  ES did not put Arkansas basketball on the map.  He just found the map, in a drunken stupor, and handed it to NR and then crawled away.

[snortman]

There is a lot more to Nolan's story than that.  Did he lash out at the end?  Sure he did, but it is deeper.  ES offered to crawl to an opposing school and never won it all here.  ES did not put Arkansas basketball on the map.  He just found the map, in a drunken stupor, and handed it to NR and then crawled away.

Yes Eddie did put Arkansas basketball on the map. When he beat UCLA in the NCAA tourney everybody took notice whether you want to admit or not, why you people are so hell bent on trying to diminish what Eddie did at Ark is quite frankly totally childish.

[Mick Hogger]

I'm still waiting on that list of Final Fours the Hogs made it to before Sutton's arrival....

Eddie had 1 Final Four and 2 Elite Eights while at Arkansas.

Your wait is over. According to the Final Four team posters that they passed out at the game honoring all the FF teams that I'm looking at right now, the Hogs also were in the FF in the 1940-41 and 1944-45 seasons.

[Pork Twain]

I'm still waiting on that list of Final Fours the Hogs made it to before Sutton's arrival....

Eddie had 1 Final Four and 2 Elite Eights while at Arkansas.

Can you give me a list of Finals the Hogs made it to before Nolan?

[Pork Twain]

Yes Eddie did put Arkansas basketball on the map. When he beat UCLA in the NCAA tourney everybody took notice whether you want to admit or not, why you people are so hell bent on trying to diminish what Eddie did at Ark is quite frankly totally childish.

Nope

[GuvHog]

Yes Eddie did put Arkansas basketball on the map. When he beat UCLA in the NCAA tourney everybody took notice whether you want to admit or not, why you people are so hell bent on trying to diminish what Eddie did at Ark is quite frankly totally childish.

Well said. That "Ambush in the Bluff" where Eddie's Hogs upset Dean Smith's top 5 ranked UNC Tar Heels put the Hogs on the map too.

[GuvHog]

Can you give me a list of Finals the Hogs made it to before Nolan?

There were 3 of them. Nolan had 2 more for a total of 5.

[GuvHog]

Your wait is over. According to the Final Four team posters that they passed out at the game honoring all the FF teams that I'm looking at right now, the Hogs also were in the FF in the 1940-41 and 1944-45 seasons.

Correct. For about 30 years, Men's Razorback basketball was virtually non-existent until Eddie Sutton's arrival (1946 to the early 70's).

[Pork Twain]

Correct. For about 30 years, Men's Razorback basketball was virtually non-existent until Eddie Sutton's arrival (1946 to the early 70's).

Too bad ES could not stay sober long enough to get all that talent to the finals. As much as I dislike the fact that ES stated he would rather crawl to another school than coach the Hogs, I dislike drunks even less.

[Pork Twain]

There were 3 of them. Nolan had 2 more for a total of 5.

Wow, Guv, you cannot even get a simple question like this right.  Which three years did Arkansas go to the Finals outside of 1994 and 1995?

[Mick Hogger]

Wow, Nolan went to the FF 3x at Arkansas.  1990 with May-Day and 2x with the 94 and 05 team.

We've been to the Final Four 6 times as a program.

Nolan did it 3x. He won a championship. Finals twice. Greatest Hog major sports coach since Broyles in the 60s.

Eddie, thanks for the memories but whether or not you get into the HOF isn't my call. Eddie definitely walks a line where his off the court activities may overshadow his on court accomplishments.