Cheating

[Tusks]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe what MCH is saying is not so much that cheating is ok, but moreso that it isn't cheating if everyone is doing it. If everyone is doing it, then to keep things on a level playing field, we should be too.

[Steef]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe what MCH is saying is not so much that cheating is ok, but moreso that it isn't cheating if everyone is doing it. If everyone is doing it, then to keep things on a level playing field, we should be too.

Nope. If it's against the rules, it's cheating.

No matter who else is doing it.

Don't like it? Get the rules changed. After which, it wouldn't be cheating any more.

Just sleazy.

[tophawg19]

Your absurd comparisons have zero relation to football recruiting.  You are talking about crimes with victims.  Recruiting "violations" is a victimless crime.   It's not even a crime actually.  The things you bring up are crimes. Its apples and oranges.

Not true . the kids doing things the right way are the victims . the ones who aren't for sale .

[Richard_white]

Cheating is one of the reasons why the NCAA committee is dying.  As dirtier programs have got, the dirtier the NCAA has gotten.  How much or how little a program cheats is determined by the character and integrity of college programs.  But as college football has turned into a billion dollar machine, integrity and character flies out the window when the pressure of winning and making money comes first.

[RazorWhacker]

Nope. If it's against the rules, it's cheating.

No matter who else is doing it.

Don't like it? Get the rules changed. After which, it wouldn't be cheating any more.

Just sleazy.

Yep.

The NCAA didn't find that Auburn paying Scam Newton's dad's church $200K broke a specific rule, but it was still cheating, no? How many of you has called them cheaters or sleazy because of it?

I don't see how anyone can take pride in an accomplishment if they broke the rules to do it. Any accomplishment can only be truly rewarding when done the right way.

[WayneHawg]

The only cheaters im aware of reside in Norman Oklahoma

[Cinco de Hogo]

So...it's okay to steal...if there's never any risk of being caught?

Yes, steal all the recruits from other schools that we can.

How about murder? Is that okay if you always get away with it?

Yes, murder Alabama on the football field like the did us the last two years(104-0).

Are you an elected official? Because you talk like one.

14-0 National Champs! CBB for President!!!

[HawgnCorona]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe what MCH is saying is not so much that cheating is ok, but moreso that it isn't cheating if everyone is doing it. If everyone is doing it, then to keep things on a level playing field, we should be too.

If there were a even smidgen of truth in that way of think--outside of the rules/cheating, dishonesty--the world would  be a better place.

But a standard(rules) has to bear otherwise nothing means anything...

[TDHawgs]

If you didn't realize that Auburn, and Alabama have been cheating for years and years, then I don't know what to think. It's not like they are hiding it. The only ones we can hold accountable for our misery is the Walton, Hunt and Tyson family.. they are stingy with their money, otherwise we'd land top 5 recruiting classes. Shame on them.. 

[Killean]

I'm sure all these recruits are reporting their payments to the IRS like they're supposed to as well.

[Bubba's Bruisers]

I'm still not convinced that even if started cheating, as in paying recruits, and I mean really paying, that we'd see a tremendous improvement anyway.  So let's just do it the right way and let the chips fall where they may.

Let me clarify.  Let's not cheat regardless.  Frankly, I like the underdog role.  Keeps things very interesting.

[lefty08]

There is no such thing as a victimless crime, hence why its called a crime....

[Music City Hog]

There is no such thing as a victimless crime, hence why its called a crime....

Well breaking recruiting rules isn't a crime so...

[hawgbawb]

The trouble is lack of enforcement and uneven enforcement. Some of the golden goose schools get passes. We are not in that Teflon Club. So I say change the rules and pay the players. What we have now is like the War on Drugs. It just doesn't work.

Besides, cheaters are losers, even when they win.

[Music City Hog]

The trouble is lack of enforcement and uneven enforcement. Some of the golden goose schools get passes. We are not in that Teflon Club. So I say change the rules and pay the players. What we have now is like the War on Drugs. It just doesn't work.

Besides, cheaters are losers, even when they win.

Everyone is a Teflon school right now.  There is no enforcement.  You can do pretty much anything you'd like whether you are Bama or Indiana.   It does not matter.   

[nationwish]

Do you remember years ago when Phil Fulmer turned in Alabama on some violations? I don't remember exactly what they were, but the media dragged Tennessee's coach through the mud for standing up to things Alabama was doing. He was even under threat of subpoena for awhile after that. I'm not sure if people in Alabama were more interested in going after him or putting him under oath to find his sources.

The point is, the culture today is harsher for people who report these things than it is for the people who break the rules in the first place. It's an attitude that you see often in ghettos and trailer parks, where the snitch is lower than a thief. A little perspective is needed here. In a service academy, where honor codes are taken pretty seriously, a person who does not report a crime can be kicked out of the school along with the person who commits the act. I think we'd be better off as a society moving further that direction instead of covering up for everyone. We can't help the way other people or fans of other schools feel or act. We can only do that for ourselves.

[Music City Hog]

Do you remember years ago when Phil Fulmer turned in Alabama on some violations? I don't remember exactly what they were, but the media dragged Tennessee's coach through the mud for standing up to things Alabama was doing. He was even under threat of subpoena for awhile after that. I'm not sure if people in Alabama were more interested in going after him or putting him under oath to find his sources.

The point is, the culture today is harsher for people who report these things than it is for the people who break the rules in the first place. It's an attitude that you see often in ghettos and trailer parks, where the snitch is lower than a thief. A little perspective is needed here. In a service academy, where honor codes are taken pretty seriously, a person who does not report a crime can be kicked out of the school along with the person who commits the act. I think we'd be better off as a society moving further that direction instead of covering up for everyone. We can't help the way other people or fans of other schools feel or act. We can only do that for ourselves.

Quite the opposite.  The NCAA had some credibility back then.  Now, they are a joke.   They don't enforce any rules.  They are so terrified the big 5 conferences will break off from the NCAA that they don't even pretend to oppose them.   

[Tigerloather]

Your absurd comparisons have zero relation to football recruiting.  You are talking about crimes with victims.  Recruiting "violations" is a victimless crime.   It's not even a crime actually.  The things you bring up are crimes. Its apples and oranges.

I strongly disagree that this is a victimless crime.  Whoever is not cheating is a victim to the tune of thousands or millions of dollars.  If there are going to be rules, they should be enforced.  If they are not to be enforced then abolish them and level the playing field.

[Music City Hog]

I strongly disagree that this is a victimless crime.  Whoever is not cheating is a victim to the tune of thousands or millions of dollars.  If there are going to be rules, they should be enforced.  If they are not to be enforced then abolish them and level the playing field.

Well, it's not a crime so...


And Whomever is not cheating, well, is losing.   You've made my entire point:  there currently are no rules!!!!!

[Tigerloather]

I get what you're saying, but at the same rate, there is no such thing as a victimless rule either.  Enforce the rule or abolish it.

[Music City Hog]

I get what you're saying, but at the same rate, there is no such thing as a victimless rule either.  Enforce the rule or abolish it.

So neither is happening right now.  There's technically a rule that's not being enforced. 

[Porkys Revenge]

Survival of the fittest. Kill or be killed...

[redeye]

4 start recruit signs with the school who the distributor is a booster for.

Just sayin ..... is that cheating, cutting corners, or playing the game the way its played today?

If there were any evidence of a booster giving a recruit's family something for free, I think that would be considered a clear violation.

Geez, bring back the Death Penalty...

It never should have gone away.  SMU did get what it deserved, but many others have also deserved it.

I don't see how anyone can take pride in an accomplishment if they broke the rules to do it. Any accomplishment can only be truly rewarding when done the right way.

Same here, but I think you could say that they're fans of winning at any cost, rather then sports, because there's nothing sporting about cheating.

sport·ing
adjective
1.
connected with or interested in sports.
"a major sporting event"
2.
fair and generous in one's behavior or treatment of others, especially in a game or contest.
"it was not very sporting of Smith to hit Gonzales with that pitch"
synonyms:   sportsmanlike, generous, gentlemanly, considerate

[yraciv]

Everyone cheats in Major College Football. Now it may not be wads of cash, but I've seen way more subtle violations.  Like athletes getting free drinks, paid more for bs summer jobs, or given that extra little nudge to stay academically eligible.  These are the minor, more obvious things that their fellow college students recognize, and the NCAA has a hard time tracking.  I have no idea how successful we are doing this at a larger scale because we're not supposed to know. But I've always had the feelings their were bag guys and friends of the program at all the major schools who took care of certain college athletes.    This article wasn't made up out of thin air!
http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2014/4/10/5594348/college-football-bag-man-interview

[redeye]

Everyone cheats in Major College Football. Now it may not be wads of cash, but I've seen way more subtle violations.  Like athletes getting free drinks, paid more for bs summer jobs, or given that extra little nudge to stay academically eligible.  These are the minor, more obvious things that their fellow college students recognize, and the NCAA has a hard time tracking.  I have no idea how successful we are doing this at a larger scale because we're not supposed to know. But I've always had the feelings their were bag guys and friends of the program at all the major schools who took care of certain college athletes.    This article wasn't made up out of thin air!
http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2014/4/10/5594348/college-football-bag-man-interview

I think most fans would agree with you today and I find that sad.  But as bad as the NCAA has been, I'm still of the belief that it doesn't happen at all schools.  If it did happen at all schools, then the hierarchy of college football would likely be quite different.  It's easy to lump all schools together, but I doubt it actually works that way.

[Cinco de Hogo]

Was it "fair" when we dropped the bomb on Japan?  When DOES the means justify the end?

My motto in a fight has always been "the only fair fight is one you win".  How does that translate to getting killed on the football field because we don't cheat as well as others.  It anarchy right now in college sports, there are no rules!!!

[ARtillahog]

Was it "fair" when we dropped the bomb on Japan?  When DOES the means justify the end?

My motto in a fight has always been "the only fair fight is one you win".  How does that translate to getting killed on the football field because we don't cheat as well as others.  It anarchy right now in college sports, there are no rules!!!

Yes, yes it was.  Try reading the "Rape of Nanking", that was unfair.

[Gonzo]

Depends on the definition of cheating, haha. Some give $200,000 for QB's, while others only give $15/hr to guys washing cars in the summer.

How Clinton-esque



Go Hogs!

[Gonzo]

A full ride is not cheap. They will have their chance to make millions. You start paying these guys then its going to come down to who can them the most money. The program with the most money wins. There is a very few teachers who are paid well and to me a professor in college is not as important as a 12 th grade and below teacher. This is what shapes them into adults. The university should have to pay a crap load of taxes for social services and retirement plans for teachers and other professionals if they have too much damn money. Quit making the rich, richer and help the people out that work their arse off helping people and make squat. This is why I have a problem with it. Don't get me wrong I love football but after all it's just a game.

Welcome to 2014!    Agree with it or not, what do you think has been going on since the 70s, probably much earlier?



Go Hogs!

[Cinco de Hogo]

 Irregardless of what I think about the subject, this is not a good discussion to be having in the recruiting forum.  Just my two cents.

[Gonzo]

I highly doubt there is a program in the SEC that isn't cheating to some level.  Some programs are just better at it than others.

Absolutely. It's humorous how many seem to think this is an all-or-nothing scenario.......that Arkansas is running a pure, pristine, every single rule followed program while it's all those evil other teams doing the bad stuff.

I have asked in the past, only half jokingly, if the question should  be "Should the UA cheat" or "Should the UA  cheat better"


Go Hogs!

[immahog]

I would not want us to start cheating ...an I would hope to god we are not ....nothing worst than cheating an still losing

[Wildhog]

I have no trouble believing we have boosters that are giving players the ol' "$100 handshakes."  I've heard a couple of former players mention it, too.

But then you've got schools like Auburn, whose boosters are literally paying four figures just for a prospect to VISIT. 

[CDBHawg]

I have no trouble believing we have boosters that are giving players the ol' "$100 handshakes."  I've heard a couple of former players mention it, too.

But then you've got schools like Auburn, whose boosters are literally paying four figures just for a prospect to VISIT.

Whatever it takes, right?

Why not just pay the refs, it'd probably be cheaper. Or while we're at it, others teams have coaches we could try to pay as well. I'm sure they have tons of useful information.

[Wildhog]

Whatever it takes, right?

Why not just pay the refs, it'd probably be cheaper. Or while we're at it, others teams have coaches we could try to pay as well. I'm sure they have tons of useful information.

I'm just telling you what the successful programs are doing.

[redeye]

Absolutely. It's humorous how many seem to think this is an all-or-nothing scenario.......that Arkansas is running a pure, pristine, every single rule followed program while it's all those evil other teams doing the bad stuff.

I have asked in the past, only half jokingly, if the question should  be "Should the UA cheat" or "Should the UA  cheat better"


Go Hogs!

I don't think we're all pure, because we've been caught before, but compared to schools we've played regularly?  I don't think it's merely a coincidence that Arkansas began struggling around the same time schools around us began cheating hard.  Or, that we were one of only two schools in the SWC not cited for cheating during the eighties. 

If we're cheating, then we clearly don't do enough to get caught much or for it to pay many dividends for us.  I may be naive, but I believe in the doctrine that you're innocent until proven guilty.

[hogfan870]

The last few big NCAA cases I remember:

Cam Newton - got paid to play at Auburn.  NCAA did nothing except say his dad couldn't go to the Champ game.  Dad went to the game anyway.

Johnny Manzel - got paid for autographs.  NCAA did nothing.

Oh State tattoo gate - NCAA let them play because the promised not to go pro and would be punished the next year.  They went pro. 

Now, I do fully expect that if we did something small we would be investigated for 2 or 3 years and get major sanctions, so I am not really in favor of cheating, but I have a hard time arguing against it based upon the recent lack of action by the NCAA

[Music City Hog]

The last few big NCAA cases I remember:

Cam Newton - got paid to play at Auburn.  NCAA did nothing except say his dad couldn't go to the Champ game.  Dad went to the game anyway.

Johnny Manzel - got paid for autographs.  NCAA did nothing.

Oh State tattoo gate - NCAA let them play because the promised not to go pro and would be punished the next year.  They went pro. 

Now, I do fully expect that if we did something small we would be investigated for 2 or 3 years and get major sanctions, so I am not really in favor of cheating, but I have a hard time arguing against it based upon the recent lack of action by the NCAA

Until this ridiculous Oklahoma st investigation, which is basically already over and nothing will happen, there hasn't been a single NCAA investigation since the cam newton days. 

You can absolutely do anything you want right now without any consequences. 

[Steef]

Until this ridiculous Oklahoma st investigation, which is basically already over and nothing will happen, there hasn't been a single NCAA investigation since the cam newton days. 

You can absolutely do anything you want right now without any consequences.

Not true.

NC AA rendered sanctions against North Carolina for far less than anything Ohio State did.

NC AA suspended a Georgia wide receiver for several games...for openly selling one shirt. But winked at Bama when their Heisman running back was ADVERTISED selling autographs at a sports shop..

And of course, Penn State should have had their entire athletic department permanently shut down. But in fairness,  the NC AA has no recent history at all, caring about rape. FSU, LSU & Vandy come to mind.

[JansterZ71]

Lots of people in this thread that actually believe that Arkansas doesn't pay players and other schools do....

[Wildhog]

Lots of people in this thread that actually believe that Arkansas doesn't pay players and other schools do....

We don't pay as much.  We'd recruit better if we did.

[hogfan870]

I am sure that we are doing some paying - the $handshakes and picking up resturant bills - but I don't think we are doing the major - give your dad or coach $100k type stuff.  Like the poster above me said, we would be recruiting much better - and getting some out of the blue big time players if we were

[Porkys Revenge]

I have no trouble believing we have boosters that are giving players the ol' "$100 handshakes."  I've heard a couple of former players mention it, too.

But then you've got schools like Auburn, whose boosters are literally paying four figures just for a prospect to VISIT. 

and Auburn, Colorado and Oklahoma still have national titles with no asterisk beside them. College football is serious business and that's usually where nice guys finish last. Sad but true.

[Wildhog]

and Auburn, Colorado and Oklahoma still have national titles with no asterisk beside them. College football is serious business and that's usually where nice guys finish last. Sad but true.

I agree.

[JansterZ71]

We don't pay as much.  We'd recruit better if we did.

I don't believe this.  Arkansas is at a huge disadvantage geographically and traditionally not a powerhouse.  Arkansas would still not be top 10 in recruiting if the paid a lot (which I believe they still do pay players)

[Wildhog]

I don't believe this.  Arkansas is at a huge disadvantage geographically and traditionally not a powerhouse.  Arkansas would still not be top 10 in recruiting if the paid a lot (which I believe they still do pay players)

Did I say top ten?  Why, no I didn't.  I said better.

[JansterZ71]

Did I say top ten?  Why, no I didn't.  I said better.

meh you need to be top 10 to be "better". 11-25 are pretty much a wash.  To get too 10 means you've landed some Tru studs, 5* type players which is what the Top tier SEC schools do

[Wildhog]

meh you need to be top 10 to be "better". 11-25 are pretty much a wash.  To get too 10 means you've landed some Tru studs, 5* type players which is what the Top tier SEC schools do

lol, okay.  Didn't realize we lived in a universe where better is not better.

[JansterZ71]

My bad Wildhog,  I was thinking you meant better as in much better.  Wrong interpretation of what you meant.  My apologies

[Wildhog]

My bad Wildhog,  I was thinking you meant better as in much better.  Wrong interpretation of what you meant.  My apologies

I've said for a LONG time that there are certain programs that we will NEVER out-recruit.  There are roughly ten of those programs.  You can make the argument for a couple more.

However, if we could consistently be in the top 20, that would go a long way for us.