Cheating

[ARtillahog]

I highly doubt there is a program in the SEC that isn't cheating to some level.  Some programs are just better at it than others.

Well, MCH's point is let's get better like the other programs.  Kinda like using steroids or PE drugs in baseball.

[ricepig]

I highly doubt there is a program in the SEC that isn't cheating to some level.  Some programs are just better at it than others.

Depends on the definition of cheating, haha. Some give $200,000 for QB's, while others only give $15/hr to guys washing cars in the summer.

[Music City Hog]

Well, MCH's point is let's get better like the other programs.  Kinda like using steroids or PE drugs in baseball.

Exactly.  I'm not advocating murder, theft, or stealing from your boss's business.  Bending recruiting rules as much as possible is not a crime.  You don't get arrested.  You don't go to jail.  There is no victim. 

I know for a fact that major cheating is happening because my Ole Miss buddy shows me everything.  I've seen him open the safe and hand me stacks of cash he was delivering to an assistant coach the next day. 

Perhaps we are doing this already, but something tells me we aren't to the level of our SEC brethren.  I'm simply suggesting we get on the game or get accustomed to being SEC bottom feeders.

It's an opinion and I appreciate the ones y'all have shared.  Disagreeing is fine!  Imagine a message board of we all agreed.  It would be pretty boring.

[jkstock04]

I highly doubt there is a program in the SEC that isn't cheating to some level.  Some programs are just better at it than others.

Better at it than others is up for debate. I would argue that Auburn completely sucks at it, while Alabama are masters at it.

Auburn pays players 6 figures plus and it's front page news. When Alabama does it nobody finds out. Arkansas probably finds ways to get players those scooters they ride around on lol.

[Steef]

Better at it than others is up for debate. I would argue that Auburn completely sucks at it, while Alabama are masters at it.

Auburn pays players 6 figures plus and it's front page news. When Alabama does it nobody finds out. Arkansas probably finds ways to get players those scooters they ride around on lol.

That isn't because Auburn isn't good at it. It's because they've realized they don't NEED to hide it. Their reputation doesn't get in the way of recruiting, because no one who comes to them....cares. And no one who oversees them...cares.

Bama still likes to pretend.

[OneTuskOverTheLine™]

Whatever it takes to change our fortune

That's like striking out with the ladies and hiring a prostitute. You didn't earn squat, she did... You have no character yourself and no faith in our team if you are willing to cheat to win...

[Music City Hog]

That's like striking out with the ladies and hiring a prostitute. You didn't earn squat, she did... You have no character yourself and no faith in our team if you are willing to cheat to win...

It's exactly like that.  Sigh

[gmarv]

as everybody is cheating and fans want us to be better cheaters our sports ain,t teaching the kids of today what they taught us in the past,do i have this wrong? of course if they ain,t your kids what do we care right??

[Wildhog]

Which game?

Playing to win football? Or playing to win best sleazebag?

If best sleazebag = more wins, then yes.

[Music City Hog]

This is a fun dog days of summer thread.

[Music City Hog]

Here is why this is NOT a victimless crime.

I'm sure that elsewhere on this board, we have lamented the fact of how younger generations only care what they can get out of something.  We have (and we are) raising an 'entitlement' generation (where the first concern of far too many is what is in it for me).

Athlete A meets Booster B for State U.  Athlete A 'plays the game' as he thinks it should be played and arranges for some under the table rewards.  Some would say there is not victim here.

What about Athlete R - the athlete who does things by the book? 

Athlete A (who was bought and paid for by a booster) becomes the focus for Booster B - who then does everything in his power (and perhaps more) to 'promote' Athlete A to the coaching staff to make sure Athlete A gets playing time.  A coaching staff that may also be on the receiving end of Booster B's contributions. 

Think Athlete R still has the same opportunity?  What kind of message are we sending to Athlete R?

This is most definitely a crime with victims.
And you need to count society as a victim here too - look around at the people who expect something for nothing.

Survival of the fittest.

[Wildhog]

Sooner or later, the bill for that decision always comes due.

Apparently not.

[Music City Hog]

Well, MCH.  In keeping with the tone of this thread, I'll have to disagree with you as well (but in a civil manner - which is a nice change around here I must say).

I do think there is one area where you and I can agree though - if there is to be a NCAA, it needs to investigate, act, and punish in a far swifter fashion and with meaningful consequences than it does at present.  As presently run, the NCAA is the chihuahua...without teeth.

We do agree on the last part.  In an ideal world, every secondary and major infraction would be punished and everyone would be scared into following every rule, thus creating a pretty level playing field.

I'm just suggesting that since that does not exist, we play the game too. 

[Tim Harris]

Here is why this is NOT a victimless crime.

I'm sure that elsewhere on this board, we have lamented the fact of how younger generations only care what they can get out of something.  We have (and we are) raising an 'entitlement' generation (where the first concern of far too many is what is in it for me).

Athlete A meets Booster B for State U.  Athlete A 'plays the game' as he thinks it should be played and arranges for some under the table rewards.  Some would say there is not victim here.

What about Athlete R - the athlete who does things by the book? 

Athlete A (who was bought and paid for by a booster) becomes the focus for Booster B - who then does everything in his power (and perhaps more) to 'promote' Athlete A to the coaching staff to make sure Athlete A gets playing time.  A coaching staff that may also be on the receiving end of Booster B's contributions. 

Think Athlete R still has the same opportunity?  What kind of message are we sending to Athlete R?

This is most definitely a crime with victims.
And you need to count society as a victim here too - look around at the people who expect something for nothing.

If Athlete "R" gives you the best chance to win he would be on the field.  Wins and losses is what matters on a coaches resume.  It is how they get raises, move on to bigger and better jobs, etc...

Instead you propose that we treat them all the same regardless which we all know doesn't happen regardless of if they are being paid or not.

The NCAA has proven that the rules they have created will not be enforced.  The programs that want to win are now creating their own rules as they go. 

[poloprince]

My $.02;

As a business owner, I would hire steefhog and put him in charge of everything and anything.

If Music City Hog worked for me, I would make sure he reported to the tightest micro-manager on my team and had zero access to anything meaningful.

If that helps clarify anything at all.

Ok well you are that 1% of America that isn't money hungry.

[poloprince]

They do get paid. Its called a free ride to college. Other families are paying thousands of dollars for their children to go to school. Athletes get paid too much damn money as it is. They don't need more. Wan't to slip people money? How about slipping a school teacher some or a firefighter or a police officer. These people are under paid not the damn athletes.

You forget the fact that college programs are making billions, so a scholarship isnt very  much if you really think about it. When you generate revenue you get revenue.  The state employees who are at the top of their profession are well compensated.  Professional athletes are no different, they provide a service that generates a ton of money.  The owners don't have a problem with paying them.  Why do you?

[wholehog92]

Whole lot of typing already quoted several times.

Athlete R has the same result weather they are paid or not.  You did a lot of typing to make an irrelevant point.  Athlete A is only in the position to negotiate because of his talent.  The coaches will pay him more attention weather he is paid or not because of the potential contained in his talent.


This whole thread is about moral relativism or moral absolutism.  Is there a set of morals you stick to regardless of what others do or do you justify your moral positions based on the people you see around you?  FWIW society is moving toward relativism.  The problem with it is we like to feel good about our selves.  That leads us to look hard for the person who is worse morally than we are.  Clearly, that leads to a morally devolving society to our worst element.

We used to be a society based on absolutism.  A group of standards you were held to that were essentially the same across society doesn't allow the degradation because they don't change. 

Nobody likes to be told what they are doing is wrong, so we are moving away from it.  The NCAA is ran by college presidents.  There is not a more progressive group of cowards in the world than college presidents.  It's clear where this is headed.

[cosmodrum]

You guys know as well as I do that we'd be the program that gets nailed to the wall if we cheated with the likes of Bama, Auburn, etc. Our program would get the chair.

[Grizzlyfan]

Survival of the fittest.

Yeah, that's the way to build a healthy society.

[CDBHawg]

Whatever it takes to compete with our peers.  That's a fluid answer.

You're proposing we do something that you feel is so easy, right? Whatever it takes...if it were only as simple as that. Truth of the matter is nothing is as easy as whatever takes when competition is involved. Even "cheating".

We might be doing it already. Who knows? You're assuming we are not because we aren't in the top 5 in recruiting rankings. At what point do you stop to keep a kid from say Bama/Auburn/LSU? 100K, 500K, 1mil, 2mil?

Just win the recruiting battles... how? Whatever it takes.
Just win the SEC... how? Whatever it takes.
Just win the NC... how? Whatever it takes.

Why not just do whatever it takes to hire Saban as HC & Meyer/Spurrier as CO-OCs?

[secneahog]

Exactly.  I'm not advocating murder, theft, or stealing from your boss's business.  Bending recruiting rules as much as possible is not a crime.  You don't get arrested.  You don't go to jail.  There is no victim. 

I know for a fact that major cheating is happening because my Ole Miss buddy shows me everything.  I've seen him open the safe and hand me stacks of cash he was delivering to an assistant coach the next day. 

Perhaps we are doing this already, but something tells me we aren't to the level of our SEC brethren.  I'm simply suggesting we get on the game or get accustomed to being SEC bottom feeders.

It's an opinion and I appreciate the ones y'all have shared.  Disagreeing is fine!  Imagine a message board of we all agreed.  It would be pretty boring.

You act like ole piss is lighting up the Sec with them cheating their arses off.

Your ole piss buddy is a joke and you're absolutely a joke.

[Music City Hog]

Yeah, that's the way to build a healthy society.

Huh, It's the way society has been since the beginning of time.

[Music City Hog]

You act like ole piss is lighting up the Sec with them cheating their arses off.

Your ole piss buddy is a joke and you're absolutely a joke.

I just used Ole Miss because thats the one I've seen first hand.  I'm sure you could replace them with most schools.  I simply used what I've seen.

[ARtillahog]

Yeah, that's the way to build a healthy society.

Correct!

The "everybody else is doing it" excuse doesn't hold water.  You can win and have a clean program, it's just extremely difficult because we have a society that has increasingly become all about instant self-gratification... and the NCAA won't uphold it's own rules.

[jkstock04]

You guys know as well as I do that we'd be the program that gets nailed to the wall if we cheated with the likes of Bama, Auburn, etc. Our program would get the chair.

100% agree with this....and it's unfortunate.

[ricepig]

aTm must have some guys not getting paid the same and trying to even out the balance.

[BigSexyHog]

Certain programs can cheat... 90% of the others can not..... That's the way the NCAA wants it.

[Country Stylz]

If only we could find a coach who didn't have to resort to paying top recruits to win ballgames. Oh wait...

[Bubba's Bruisers]

The irony of all this, and this in not at all intended to be an endorsement, is that if everybody is really "cheating" and we decide to jump into that fray (because, of course, we're the only program not doing it.  Of course), then, as a practical matter, it really isn't cheating anymore.  Everybody is taking advantage of the same "rules"...wild-west style or not.  The new rule is there are no rules.  Even playing field again.

[Science Fiction Greg]

I am not willing to support a team that cheats, and if cheating is shown to be rampant in the sport, I'm not willing to watch that sport.  Seems pretty simple to me.  Play by the rules or you are a loser no matter what happens on the field/court.

[U-A Filthy Pig]

I'd be happy to.  One of my good buddies is a prominent ole miss "sponsor" and he tells and shows me everything they do.  I'd love to get in on that if we have a similar program. 

There you go. Problem solved.  You should just become an Ole Miss fan since you want to cheat so bad.  Then you can go infect the Ole Miss boards with your negativity and weak character.

[hoghiker]

I'm not sure Slive would wants more enforcement. The SEC, or Slive, may not  want it played differently. It may not be good for Arkansas but its good for the league. Cynical I know but somebody likes it the way it is. Probably lots of people. Billions floating around for easing the  troubling pain of ethics.

[Music City Hog]

I'm not sure Slive would wants more enforcement. The SEC, or Slive, may not  want it played differently. It may not be good for Arkansas but its good for the league. Cynical I know but somebody likes it the way it is. Probably lots of people. Billions floating around for easing the  troubling pain of ethics.

You're probably right. It's in the league's best interest to not clean up cheating.

[ZERO]

I am not willing to support a team that cheats, and if cheating is shown to be rampant in the sport, I'm not willing to watch that sport.  Seems pretty simple to me.  Play by the rules or you are a loser no matter what happens on the field/court.

You don't feel as though college football is rampant with various degrees of cheating?

[Paul]

I think that one thing is indisputable...Mike Slive wouldn't have had the guts to speak out like this

[PygmalionEffect]

Life is full of choices... We make them every day.

What other laws are ok to ignore?

Which parts of the Bible are we free to discard?

Not a very good analogy there my friend.

[Science Fiction Greg]

You don't feel as though college football is rampant with various degrees of cheating?

I said if it was shown that there was, and no I don't feel like it has been shown that there is.  I would really like to see more investigating and control going on, sure.  I'm not willing to write off the whole sport on vague suspicions or a "feeling," but I am not happy with the current situation, either.

[Tomhog™]

I highly doubt there is a program in the SEC that isn't cheating to some level.  Some programs are just better at it than others.

We need to hire a consultant.

[greenie]

I would rather bang the drum for accountability and character rather than slouch towards the likes of what is being claimed as common practice.  MCH is right about one thing, taking the high road has it's price...or whatever road it is that we're on.

[Tusks]

hogs will never be a good 'corner cutter'.  fans need to remember that when on NSD most high profile recruits pick other teams.  it's the cost of doing business in big boy college football, I just don't see the hogs boosters being able to put together a significant stealthy recruiting enhancement program.

until then, it's going to be pushing a bolder uphill.

[PantherHog733]

I'm a 100% against any form of cheating or cutting corners. How can you hold your program to a high standard and talk about integrity, when you are blatantly cheating and find it to be alright? HOW DO YOU THINK CHEATING IS OKAY?! I don't care if it's the Super Bowl, recruiting, or a family game night, cheating is cheating and any coach that holds himself to a high degree of integrity and respect should not allow it at their school. Call me old school, but I'd rather take a bunch of 3 stars that we EARNED the right way, than 15 4 stars that we cheated to get. I just hope we are doing it the right way, and strive to do so!

WPS  :razorback:

[Ironhawg]

My $.02;

As a business owner, I would hire steefhog and put him in charge of everything and anything.

If Music City Hog worked for me, I would make sure he reported to the tightest micro-manager on my team and had zero access to anything meaningful.

If that helps clarify anything at all.

I'm with you.

[Music City Hog]

I'm with you.

Guess I better stick with my current job!

[CDBHawg]

Guess I better stick with my current job!

Whatever it takes. 

[Wildhog]

In the SEC, if you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'.

[Tusks]

Does anyone else find irony in the fact that the hog program has as much or more the wealthiest booster list in all of college football but can't tap that $$ for winning big.

I post this story all the time....4 star recruits family owns a liquor store.  One day a truck pulls up and buys out the entire liquor store at retail.  Later that day a different truck pulls up and fully stocks the liquor store free of charge.

4 start recruit signs with the school who the distributor is a booster for.

Just sayin ..... is that cheating, cutting corners, or playing the game the way its played today?

I just can't see hog booster doing much of this type stuff.  Not because they can't but because they aren't organized well enough to do it and many, like in this thread, don't agree with it.

[hogville38]

You forget the fact that college programs are making billions, so a scholarship isnt very  much if you really think about it. When you generate revenue you get revenue.  The state employees who are at the top of their profession are well compensated.  Professional athletes are no different, they provide a service that generates a ton of money.  The owners don't have a problem with paying them.  Why do you?

A full ride is not cheap. They will have their chance to make millions. You start paying these guys then its going to come down to who can them the most money. The program with the most money wins. There is a very few teachers who are paid well and to me a professor in college is not as important as a 12 th grade and below teacher. This is what shapes them into adults. The university should have to pay a crap load of taxes for social services and retirement plans for teachers and other professionals if they have too much damn money. Quit making the rich, richer and help the people out that work their arse off helping people and make squat. This is why I have a problem with it. Don't get me wrong I love football but after all it's just a game.

[HawgnCorona]

It's exactly like that.  Sigh

You can always change your allegiance to Ole Pissy,Tenner,Bammer or Awbun...Cause, "Your cheatin' heart will tell on you!"

Geez, bring back the Death Penalty...

[ricepig]

Nice take on it on OTL right now.

[WILL CLINTON]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe what MCH is saying is not so much that cheating is ok, but moreso that it isn't cheating if everyone is doing it. If everyone is doing it, then to keep things on a level playing field, we should be too.