Tommy Bowden on Arkansas.

[lefty08]

I get what you are saying, but the bolded W-L record was basically based off of one recruiting class. To "build" something means to set a foundation and in my opinion one recruiting class does not a foundation make. There is no data to statistically say this was to be the norm.

I think the safest baseline to work from would be the last 10 years which provides a large enough sample size of recruiting classes to help draw conclusions.

Stop making sense dangit

[GuvHog]

I get what you are saying, but the bolded W-L record was basically based off of one recruiting class. To "build" something means to set a foundation and in my opinion one recruiting class does not a foundation make. There is no data to statistically say this was to be the norm.

I think the safest baseline to work from would be the last 10 years which provides a large enough sample size of recruiting classes to help draw conclusions.

Do you really believe that??? Pull up the 2011 roster and tell me just how many of the 2008 recruits started. Many did but the majority of the starters were not from the 2008 class.

[ChitownHawg]

Do you really believe that??? Pull up the 2011 roster and tell me just how many of the 2008 recruits started. Many did but the majority of the starters were not from the 2008 class.

Nah Guv, I tend to say things I don't mean. 

If that is the point you want to make then you go pull the data.

[hogsanity]

We've already seen what an outstanding coach can build within 3-4 years.  That should be our baseline, not what the likes of Slappy the Clown can do to the program.

No, the baseline should be the 20+ years of SEC data the program has, but you always go back to one brief span, involving one outstanding group of instate skill players. 

Now, if you want to say " what the Hogs can do when they have 2 nfl draft picks at Qb, 1 at TE, and 4 at WR ", then yea the 21-5 becomes the baseline.

[Hogwild]

yes you do have to have the right coach to win a national title....apparently Richt isn't it.  LSU, UF, Bama, AU all recruit similar to UGA and ALL four have made multiple trips to the title game since Richt has been at UGA

Richt isn't on the same level as Saban, Miles, Spurrier, or Meyer, but he is a solid coach, who will probably ended up in the HOF.

He is only 54 years old and has the top program in his division.  So far he has:

8 bowl wins
7 Top 10 finishes
5 SEC titles games
2 SEC titles
2x SEC COY
8 seasons with 10+ wins vs one losing season
12-1 against GA Tech

[EastexHawg]

I get what you are saying, but the bolded W-L record was basically based off of one recruiting class.

It's a fallacy that has become generally accepted Hogville fact.

First of all...Mallett was not a member of our 2008 recruiting class.  He signed with Michigan.  He transferred to Arkansas because our dimwit, send out one receiver at a time coach was fired and an innovative, spread the field coach was hired.

Cobi Hamilton was not a member of the 2008 class.  Neither were Jerry Franklin, Jake Bequette, Knile Davis, Robert Thomas, Anthony Leon, Travis Swanson, Alvin Bailey, Ross Rasner, Rudell Crim, DD Jones, Byran Jones, Zach Hocker, Chris Smith, Kiero Small, Trey Flowers, Tevin Mitchel, Alonzo Highsmith, D.J. Williams, Ray Dominguez, Grant Freeman, Mitch Petrus, Van Stumon, Ronnie Wingo, and Darius Winston.  Just to name some, but by all means not all.

That's the majority of our starting lineups from 2010-2011.  And yet the "company line" for so many here is that the only reason we won big during those years was "one great in-state recruiting class".

By the way...most of the guys I just named aren't even from Arkansas.

Now...what you/they/everyone really means is that Tyler Wilson, Joe Adams, Jarius Wright, Greg Childs, and Chris Gragg were from the Arkansas high school class of 2008.  Adams was committed to USC until Petrino flipped him, but let's forget about that.  I think one question you have to ask is, "Would this QB and these receivers have put up the numbers they did in Nutt's offense...or the offense of any coach we've ever had besides Petrino?"

Do you think it's possible, just possible, that the fact they played for an offensive teacher and innovator like Petrino may have not only given them more opportunities and exposure, but may have just plain made them better players than they would have been otherwise?

How did Tyler Wilson look in 2012 compared to the previous year?  Oh, wait...don't tell me.  He couldn't possibly look as competent because Jarius, Adams, and Childs were gone.  I forgot.  An answer for everything has been discovered, refined, and is just sitting there like a pistol in a holster, ready to be drawn at a split second's notice.

I'm not aiming this directly at you, Chitown.  It's a response to the entire groupthink mentality.  I just happened to respond to your post.

[Hogwild]

I didn't just cherrypick three years out of the last two decades.  I "picked" the three most recent seasons we had played before self-imposing the death penalty (for at least the last two years...and who knows for how much longer?) on our program in early 2012.

If you looked at LSU's prospects going forward would you consider their record in recent years, or would you go back to the Curley Hallman/Gerry DiNardo days?

We've already seen what an outstanding coach can build within 3-4 years.  That should be our baseline, not what the likes of Slappy the Clown can do to the program.

LSU's Hallmen and Dinardo years like BP's two best years are outliners.  THe two LSU coaches you listed were there for 9 years and only won two bowl games (one was against Saban)  but LSU has won 23 bowl games and won the sec 10+ times.

Arkansas has won a respectful 58% of its games all time, 1198 games 685 wins/40 ties. Since we have joined the SEC,  22 years, we have 145 wins (54.5%) and our overall SEC record is 80 wins vs 94 losses. That's our true baseline , so if BB can get us to 8 wins and a bowl game he should be SEC COY.

[hogsanity]

Richt isn't on the same level as Saban, Miles, Spurrier, or Meyer, but he is a solid coach, who will probably ended up in the HOF.

He is only 54 years old and has the top program in his division.  So far he has:

8 bowl wins
7 Top 10 finishes
5 SEC titles games
2 SEC titles
2x SEC COY
8 seasons with 10+ wins vs one losing season
12-1 against GA Tech

That record is just terrible, he is just a failure.  I know, I read it on hogville.

[EastexHawg]

LSU's Hallmen and Dinardo years like BP's two best years are outliners.  THe two LSU coaches you listed were there for 9 years and only won two bowl games (one was against Saban)  but LSU has won 23 bowl games and won the sec 10+ times.

Arkansas has won a respectful 58% of its games all time, 1198 games 685 wins/40 ties. Since we have joined the SEC,  22 years, we have 145 wins (54.5%) and our overall SEC record is 80 wins vs 94 losses. That's our true baseline , so if BB can get us to 8 wins and a bowl game he should be SEC COY.

The British Empire lasted almost 300 years, but the United States has only been a world power for about 150.  Does that mean Britain's "ceiling" is much higher than ours?

The Roman Empire spanned somewhere between 500 and 600 years.  Dang...if we ever go to war with them they'll be prohibitive favorites.  They have history on their side while we are mere Johnny come latelies.

[hogsanity]

Do you think it's possible, just possible, that the fact they played for an offensive teacher and innovator like Petrino may have not only given them more opportunities and exposure, but may have just plain made them better players than they would have been otherwise?

But that is a different conversation, and does not address the context of the OP.  This program has historically been a 8 win program.  Even just looking at the SEC years, it is a 8 win program. Even if you take the 1 coach you want to only focus on, they won 35 games in his 4 years, 8.75 games per year.

It is like if I am buying a business, I am not going to pay them based on their highest sales year if I have 2 decades of data showing me that one year was atypical of their performance over time.

No one is, or have I ever seen them argue here, that Bp is not an excellent offensive coach. 

[EastexHawg]

And my point is that "history" is not necessarily a good predictor of the future.  When Nebraska and Miami played in the 1984 Orange Bowl Nebraska had all the history.  Two national championships, 34 Big 8 championships, well on their way to their NCAA record 35 consecutive bowl championships...

Miami, meanwhile, had gone 43-67 during the decade of the 1970s and had played in one bowl game (Peach) since 1967. 

Based on "history", which team would you have favored to win the game?  More to the point, which program would you have picked to be more dominant over the next decade?

What we had done in the SEC prior to 2010 was irrelevant as we looked over the SEC and college football landscape in early 2012.  Robby Hampton and Sparky Hamilton weren't still playing for us, and Houston Nutt and Danny Ford were no longer our coaches.  We had a chancellor who meddled in the football progam, an AD who believed (and didn't mind telling people) that we only had the potential to be a middle to bottom of the pack SEC team, and coaches...especially one coach...who held us back for most of two decades.

We could have been better than we were back then, and we were better in 2011.  There was no reason to go back.  It's like Thomas Edison inventing a practical light bulb.  If you built a house a few years later, why would you insist on installing nothing but kerosene lamps?  Because that's what had "always" been used to light houses?

[ChitownHawg]

Here are links to the 2008 & 2009 recruiting classes.  it seems like the majority of our success came from these players. Yes there were a handful of players Bobby inherited that contributed, but the bulk of passes, runs, TDs, tackles, sacks, INTs and other stats that contribute to wins came from these two classes.

2008
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/football/recruiting/school/_/id/8/class/2008

2009
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/football/recruiting/school/_/id/8/class/2009

And a whole lot players who never played for us.

[ChitownHawg]

See my responses in BOLD CAPS.

It's a fallacy that has become generally accepted Hogville fact.

First of all...Mallett was not a member of our 2008 recruiting class.  He signed with Michigan.  He transferred to Arkansas because our dimwit, send out one receiver at a time coach was fired and an innovative, spread the field coach was hired. ACTUALLY ESPN HAS HIM IN THIS CLASS

Cobi Hamilton was not a member of the 2008 class.  Neither were Jerry Franklin, Jake Bequette, Knile Davis, Robert Thomas, Anthony Leon, Travis Swanson, Alvin Bailey, Ross Rasner, Rudell Crim, DD Jones, Byran Jones, Zach Hocker, Chris Smith, Kiero Small, Trey Flowers, Tevin Mitchel, Alonzo Highsmith, D.J. Williams, Ray Dominguez, Grant Freeman, Mitch Petrus, Van Stumon, Ronnie Wingo, and Darius Winston.  Just to name some, but by all means not all. OK GOOD POINT. REVISE MY STATEMENT TO BE TWO GOOD CLASSES 2008 & 09

That's the majority of our starting lineups from 2010-2011.  And yet the "company line" for so many here is that the only reason we won big during those years was "one great in-state recruiting class".

By the way...most of the guys I just named aren't even from Arkansas.
IF I SAID IN STATE THEN I STAND CORRECTED. HOWEVER MOST GREAT HOG TEAMS HAPPEN WHEN THERE IS A LARGE NUMBER OF IN STATE KIDS TO GO ALONG WITH THE OUT OF STATE KIDS.

Now...what you/they/everyone really means is that Tyler Wilson, Joe Adams, Jarius Wright, Greg Childs, and Chris Gragg were from the Arkansas high school class of 2008.  Adams was committed to USC until Petrino flipped him, but let's forget about that.  I think one question you have to ask is, "Would this QB and these receivers have put up the numbers they did in Nutt's offense...or the offense of any coach we've ever had besides Petrino?"
NOT SURE WHAT THIS HAS TO DO WITH THE DISCUSSION AS WE ARE TALKING ABOUT FINDING A GOOD BASELINE TO DETERMINE IF 8 IS A GOOD AVERAGE. I WILL ALSO SAY OF COURSE BOBBY MADE THEM BETTER. BUT HE MADE THOROUGHBREDS BETTER NOT TURN MULES INTO THOROUGHBREDS. NUTT JUST GOT IN THE WAY OF GREAT ATHLETES.

Do you think it's possible, just possible, that the fact they played for an offensive teacher and innovator like Petrino may have not only given them more opportunities and exposure, but may have just plain made them better players than they would have been otherwise?
SEE ABOVE RESPONSE.

How did Tyler Wilson look in 2012 compared to the previous year?  Oh, wait...don't tell me.  He couldn't possibly look as competent because Jarius, Adams, and Childs were gone.  I forgot.  An answer for everything has been discovered, refined, and is just sitting there like a pistol in a holster, ready to be drawn at a split second's notice.
NOT PERTINENT TO THE BASELINE DISCUSSION

I'm not aiming this directly at you, Chitown.  It's a response to the entire groupthink mentality.  I just happened to respond to your post.
I KNOW AND APPRECIATE YOUR DISCUSSIONS. I MAY NOT AGREE WITH SOME OF YOUR POSTS, BUT I ALWAYS APPRECIATE THE DETAIL YOU PROVIDE.

[Pork Twain]

I didn't just cherrypick three years out of the last two decades.  I "picked" the three most recent seasons we had played before self-imposing the death penalty (for at least the last two years...and who knows for how much longer?) on our program in early 2012.

If you looked at LSU's prospects going forward would you consider their record in recent years, or would you go back to the Curley Hallman/Gerry DiNardo days?

We've already seen what an outstanding coach can build within 3-4 years.  That should be our baseline, not what the likes of Slappy the Clown can do to the program.

No, you cherry picked the best two year run since we entered the SEC.

2009 was NOT a good class, but it sure did look good on paper for the recruiting championship that year.

[EastexHawg]

How can Mallett be a member of any Arkansas recruiting class?  He didn't sign with us, he signed with Michigan...in 2007.

[EastexHawg]

No, you cherry picked the best two year run since we entered the SEC.

If you run a retail business, a hotel, or a bar and I ask you "how are sales?"...would it be cherrypicking if you said, "we've ranked in the top 15% in the industry the last three years, and we were #5 nationally last year"?

Most people tend to look at the last year or the last several years when gauging how any organization is faring.  It's more relevant to them than what happened 15 years earlier and I doubt many of them would consider it "cherrypicking".

[Hogwild]

You didn't pick the last three years, you chose the best two years of the 22 years we have been in the SEC and compared it to the worst stretch of football another program had in their 100+ history.  The last three years we are 8-16 in SEC play.

[12247]

Easttex, you are making waay too much sense here.  That 2008 recruiting class turned out pretty good but it wasn't all that special starting out.  I believe Adams flipped on signing day.  Those receivers that many on here would want you to believe were 5 star all Americans that Petrino nearly ruined were actually 3 star average WRs until Petrino and staff finally got them up to par.  Adams likely would have returned kickoffs and punts for Nutt had he showed up with Nutt as HC and the rest would have been some 25 career catches wanna a bees under Nutt or BB for that matter. 

These past 2 years if Petrino would have stayed would have been far different than what we wound up with.  2012 would have likely been 9 wins and a bowl win in my opinion.  Last year with Petrino players and another year with him (2012) and we might have dipped to 8 wins and a bowl.  This year would be another 8 or 9 wins and a bowl.  The defense would have been not very good but we still would have scored against 80 percent of the teams we played at a high clip.  The kicking and return game would have been good. 

In the end, as AD, I would have fired Petrino too only I wouldn't have needed to call a press conference and show my rear doing it.

[ChitownHawg]

How can Mallett be a member of any Arkansas recruiting class?  He didn't sign with us, he signed with Michigan...in 2007.

East, I am not sure as I am not a recruiting guru. All I know is ESPN has him as part of our 2008 class. My guess is he was given a scholarship in 2008, so they consider that as part of the class. Just a guess.

[EastexHawg]

You didn't pick the last three years, you chose the best two years of the 22 years we have been in the SEC and compared it to the worst stretch of football another program had in their 100+ history.  The last three years we are 8-16 in SEC play.

I also said "before we blew up the football program".  In case you didn't notice, something rather fundamental happened between 2011 and 2012.

Michael Jordan retired from the Bulls after the 1993 season and three straight NBA championships.  If you were talking about their potential as a franchise...with the stipulation that you would have exceptional personnel in place...in the fall of 1995, would you say it was NBA championship level or second and third in their division, as they finished during the two seasons Jordan was retired?

Since Jordan came back and played the next three full seasons we know the answer to that question.

[ChitownHawg]

Easttex, you are making waay too much sense here.  That 2008 recruiting class turned out pretty good but it wasn't all that special starting out.  I believe Adams flipped on signing day.  Those receivers that many on here would want you to believe were 5 star all Americans that Petrino nearly ruined were actually 3 star average WRs until Petrino and staff finally got them up to par.  Adams likely would have returned kickoffs and punts for Nutt had he showed up with Nutt as HC and the rest would have been some 25 career catches wanna a bees under Nutt or BB for that matter. 

Care to provide the posts where people said that?

As I said I may not always agree with East, but he provides details and stats - not hyperbole like this. Now if you can provide the posts where people have said Petrino nearly ruined our WRs, then I will gladly apologize.

Also the thread is about averaging 8 wins not "coach A" vs "coach B".

[hogsanity]

If you run a retail business, a hotel, or a bar and I ask you "how are sales?"...would it be cherrypicking if you said, "we've ranked in the top 15% in the industry the last three years, and we were #5 nationally last year"?

Most people tend to look at the last year or the last several years when gauging how any organization is faring.  It's more relevant to them than what happened 15 years earlier and I doubt many of them would consider it "cherrypicking".

It most definitely would be cherry picking.  It would also be reasonable of the person you were talking with to then point out your sales over a larger period of time.

[NashvilleHog]

From reading here, I see a lot of people without a firm grasp of reality about where we stand in the SEC.  We are consistently getting out-recruited every year (if you put stock in the rankings) by Alabama, LSU, Georgia, Texas A&M, Auburn, Florida.  Historically, Tennessee has out-recruited us, so at best, we are 8th in the SEC, based on ranking of talent.  Ole Miss, State, South Carolina all have a better recruiting base to choose from, but we hang well with them. 

We don't want to hear it, but Bowden has a good point.  The posters that say an average of 8-wins are spot on.  Some years you may jump up and win 9-10 and a year with injuries or tough schedule (at Alabama, LSU, Florida/UGA/UT, Ole Miss) will be more on the 6-7 scale.  As long as Saban is at Alabama, it's going to be tough sledding. 

8-wins per year is certainly not mediocre.  All I want is a chance to win every game.  Getting blown-out is unacceptable.  Every team in the SEC expects to win, with the exception of UK and Vandy.  Someone has to lose.  Unfortunately, we are in the toughest division of the toughest league in all of sports.  With Alabama, LSU, Auburn and Texas A&M in our division, it is very sobering. 

[Pork Twain]

If you run a retail business, a hotel, or a bar and I ask you "how are sales?"...would it be cherrypicking if you said, "we've ranked in the top 15% in the industry the last three years, and we were #5 nationally last year"?

Most people tend to look at the last year or the last several years when gauging how any organization is faring.  It's more relevant to them than what happened 15 years earlier and I doubt many of them would consider it "cherrypicking".

So what were we the last three years?  3-9, 4-8, 11-2 (6-6) Oh wait, you didn't use the last three years, you picked a rare period where we had back-to-back 10+ win season.  Cherry picking...

If you ran a business and I asked you how you "how are sales?"....it would be cherry picking if you ignored the last two years, picked the next three and ignored the last 25.  I am not a MBA guy but I do have a masters in BS.


Cherry picking, suppressing evidence, or the fallacy of incomplete evidence is the act of pointing to individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position. It is a kind of fallacy of selective attention, the most common example of which is the confirmation bias.  Cherry picking may be committed intentionally or unintentionally. This fallacy is a major problem in public debate.

The term is based on the perceived process of harvesting fruit, such as cherries. The picker would be expected to only select the ripest and healthiest fruits. An observer who only sees the selected fruit may thus wrongly conclude that most, or even all, of the fruit is in such good condition. A less common type of cherry picking is to gather only fruit that is easy to harvest ignoring quality fruit higher up the tree. This can also give observers a false impression about the quality of fruit on the tree.

Try again.

[EastexHawg]

It most definitely would be cherry picking.  It would also be reasonable of the person you were talking with to then point out your sales over a larger period of time.

No, it would be cherry picking if you said, "We finished in the top 15% nationally in 1999, 2006, and 2010."  I don't think you really understand the definition of cherry picking.  Picking the three most recent years...or the last three years before your exceptional coach was replaced by a bankrupt, doddering old goofball...isn't.  Picking the three most advantageous years with other lesser years in between is.

[Pork Twain]

No, it would be cherry picking if you said, "We finished in the top 15% nationally in 1999, 2006, and 2010."  I don't think you really understand the definition of cherry picking.  Picking the three most recent years...or the last three years before your exceptional coach was replaced by a bankrupt, doddering old goofball...isn't.  Picking the three most advantageous years with other lesser years in between is.

Umm, that is what you just did.  You picked out a two year period in the middle of a much larger sample size because it fit your line.  Those two years would also be called outliers and is almost the definition of cherry picking.

Why not go ahead and tell your customers how great you were in the 60's, 70's and 80's, when it was in Texass.  I bet that would impress them.

[hogsanity]

No, it would be cherry picking if you said, "We finished in the top 15% nationally in 1999, 2006, and 2010."  I don't think you really understand the definition of cherry picking.  Picking the three most recent years...or the last three years before your exceptional coach was replaced by a bankrupt, doddering old goofball...isn't.  Picking the three most advantageous years with other lesser years in between is.

picking the 2 best years out of 20+ in the sec, yest, that is cherry picking, no matter how you try to claim otherwise. Why don't you just go post on the UL board, since you are incapable of having a discussion without bringing up THEIR coach. You have convinced yourself that he was the only coach in the history of the world that has ever, or will ever be able to to do what he did here ( even though that did not include even a division title ).

You are twisting 2 conversations to try to make it fit your point.  Again, no one has said Bp was not a great offensive coach, but that is not the discussion.  The discussion is about the program as a whole, and you have to take in the entire body of work available, and that includes a whole lot more than just 2010 and 2011.

[EastexHawg]

picking the 2 best years out of 20+ in the sec, yest, that is cherry picking, no matter how you try to claim otherwise. Why don't you just go post on the UL board, since you are incapable of having a discussion without bringing up THEIR coach. You have convinced yourself that he was the only coach in the history of the world that has ever, or will ever be able to to do what he did here ( even though that did not include even a division title ).

You are twisting 2 conversations to try to make it fit your point.  Again, no one has said Bp was not a great offensive coach, but that is not the discussion.  The discussion is about the program as a whole, and you have to take in the entire body of work available, and that includes a whole lot more than just 2010 and 2011.

I need to go post somewhere else because I am arguing that the Arkansas football program has been and can again be excellent instead of hopping on the "we should accept less and learn to enjoy it" bandwagon?

"Get that 'we can be great stuff' out of here and let the real fans discuss why we can't be expected to compete with the big boys.  Is that how it works?

Your hysterical "in the history of the world" hyperbole might be cute in a discussion between 14 year olds at the mall, but that's not what I've said.  Ever.

I'll root for whoever I please, just as I've done probably longer than you have been alive.  Settle if you want, as you told everyone they should in your years of defenses and excuses for Nutt,  but I plan to keep expecting and advocating for exceptionalism.

[ChitownHawg]

I need to go post somewhere else because I am arguing that the Arkansas football program has been and can again be excellent instead of hopping on the "we should accept less and learn to enjoy it" bandwagon?

Nope, stay right here. I may be arguing with you about numbers and if Bowden was correct to say 8 wins.

But I am sitting right next to you on the "we can do better" bandwagon. 

[Biggus Piggus]

Tommy Bowden needs to find a team to coach that's down on his level. Like Prairie View.

[Pork Twain]

I need to go post somewhere else because I am arguing that the Arkansas football program has been and can again be excellent instead of hopping on the "we should accept less and learn to enjoy it" bandwagon?

"Get that 'we can be great stuff' out of here and let the real fans discuss why we can't be expected to compete with the big boys.  Is that how it works?

Your hysterical "in the history of the world" hyperbole might be cute in a discussion between 14 year olds at the mall, but that's not what I've said.  Ever.

I'll root for whoever I please, just as I've done probably longer than you have been alive.  Settle if you want, as you told everyone they should in your years of defenses and excuses for Nutt,  but I plan to keep expecting and advocating for exceptionalism.

Nice diversion from the fact that you were losing that cherry picking argument.  It is a tactic utilized often on here.

[Pork Twain]

Nope, stay right here. I may be arguing with you about numbers and if Bowden was correct to say 8 wins.

But I am sitting right next to you on the "we can do better" bandwagon. 

I think that is most of us

[Pigsknuckles]

Though not an active participant, am really enjoying this thread. Apart from very few snarkish comments. This thread seems to embody what is good about Hogville. Respectful discussion, and a wealth of information. Carry on.
+1 to everyone if I could.

[EastexHawg]

Nice diversion from the fact that you were losing that cherry picking argument.  It is a tactic utilized often on here.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Arguing_with_Idiots.jpg

Do you like this better?

"We went 29-10 in the last three seasons before we hired a goofy, bankrupt old man as head coach.  This buffoon was lured from Weber State and slinked off to something called Fort Lewis after he left.  Along the way, he mistook Arkansas for Alabama, was a national joke for his idiotic "smile" press conference, and required his boss to try to shield his income from his creditors and a bankruptcy court.  He took over a team ranked in the top ten in virtually every poll and managed to lose to Louisiana-Monroe on the way to a 4-8 record.  His only two SEC wins were against programs that went winless."

By the way, did Michael Jordan win NBA titles during his last six full seasons with the Bulls?

[Pork Twain]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Arguing_with_Idiots.jpg

Do you like this better?

"We went 29-10 in the last three seasons before we hired a goofy, bankrupt old man as head coach.  This buffoon was lured from Weber State and slinked off to something called Fort Lewis after he left.  Along the way, he mistook Arkansas for Alabama, was a national joke for his idiotic "smile" press conference, and required his boss to try to shield his income from his creditors and a bankruptcy court.  He took over a team ranked in the top ten in virtually every poll and managed to lose to Louisiana-Monroe on the way to a 4-8 record.  His only two SEC wins were against programs that went winless."

By the way, did Michael Jordan win NBA titles during his last six full seasons?

So now you are changing tactics again?  Still cherry picking...

Lets not compare us to one of the greatest ever.  We are more like Derek Anderson (2007 Cleveland Browns).

[Mike_e]

Tommy Bowden needs to find a team to coach that's down on his level. Like Prairie View.

?!?  What have you got against Prairie View?

[scootriteby]

I think I get what EastexHawg was trying to convey. Unfortunately, the BP sample size is not really large enough to let us know where Arkansas might have been going. But his record did improve every year before the wheels fell into the ditch. We know that it is possible to win more than 8 games per season. To average more than 8 wins per season is a little more difficult. BP did it, but he wasn't here long enough to know whether that would have lasted or not.

If you count the bowl game, 8 wins per season is not really that great, although I would have certainly took it the last two years.

[ChitownHawg]

?!?  What have you got against Prairie View?

Did the city finally get that second traffic light installed? 

[EastexHawg]

So now you are changing tactics again?  Still cherry picking...

Lets not compare us to one of the greatest ever.  We are more like Derek Anderson (2007 Cleveland Browns).

Your next salient point in this discussion will be your first. All you have been so far is the seven year old who keeps repeatedly chanting "na na na na na na".  You have done a thorough job of explaining what your definition of cherry picking is.  Congratulations.

Maybe now you can explain what it is about some Razorback fans not being so willing to accept the idea that we can't expect to win and win big that makes you so hostile.  After that maybe you can tell why you continually try to portray our 2009-2011 teams' successes as some sort of fluke...or conversely why our current and future players and coaches won't be good enough to duplicate or surpass the accomplishments.

Isn't it funny when the fans who expect excellence are depicted as negative and whiners...while those who can't wait to tell everyone to tone down their expectations are the positive, true supporters.

[PonderinHog]

I think I get what EastexHawg was trying to convey. Unfortunately, the BP sample size is not really large enough to let us know where Arkansas might have been going. But his record did improve every year before the wheels fell into the ditch. We know that it is possible to win more than 8 games per season. To average more than 8 wins per season is a little more difficult. BP did it, but he wasn't here long enough to know whether that would have lasted or not.

If you count the bowl game, 8 wins per season is not really that great, although I would have certainly took it the last two years.

It is even more difficult when you start out 3-9.

[lefty08]

Your next salient point in this discussion will be your first. All you have been so far is the seven year old who keeps repeatedly chanting "na na na na na na".  You have done a thorough job of explaining what your definition of cherry picking is.  Congratulations.

Maybe now you can explain what it is about some Razorback fans not being so willing to accept the idea that we can't expect to win and win big that makes you so hostile.  After that maybe you can tell why you continually try to portray our 2009-2011 teams' successes as some sort of fluke...or conversely why our current and future players and coaches won't be good enough to duplicate or surpass the accomplishments.

Isn't it funny when the fans who expect excellence are depicted as negative and whiners...while those who can't wait to tell everyone to tone down their expectations are the positive, true supporters.

It can happen......we can win more than 8 games per year. Wont ever happen with BP's recruiting though. It just wont happen that way.

[Pork Twain]

Your next salient point in this discussion will be your first. All you have been so far is the seven year old who keeps repeatedly chanting "na na na na na na".  You have done a thorough job of explaining what your definition of cherry picking is.  Congratulations.

Maybe now you can explain what it is about some Razorback fans not being so willing to accept the idea that we can't expect to win and win big that makes you so hostile.  After that maybe you can tell why you continually try to portray our 2009-2011 teams' successes as some sort of fluke...or conversely why our current and future players and coaches won't be good enough to duplicate or surpass the accomplishments.

Isn't it funny when the fans who expect excellence are depicted as negative and whiners...while those who can't wait to tell everyone to tone down their expectations are the positive, true supporters.

Next tactic, insults...  You are right on track, but you are still cherry picking our results since we joined the SEC.  I am not hostile at all.  I am a realist.

We all want to win lots and lots of games and who knows, maybe we will but selecting a two year period out of the entirety of our SEC tenure, does not prove that it is doable on a "consistent" basis.

[PygmalionEffect]

how many bowls games does OSUe have to lose in a row before they become ineligible for the post season?

not sure. They've won 6 BCS bowls. How many BCS bowls did Arkansas play in?

Arkansas has only been in one I think, and although the team they played didn't officially win, I think it got counted as a loss for the Hogs too, which is kind of confusing, but that's what happens sometimes when you get matched up with cheaters.

I don't think Arkansas' poor bowl record comes into play as to whether or not OSUe will continue to be eligible for post season play although I did notice that the one win OSUe has in their last seven bowl games was sandwiched in between three losses before the win and after the win, so they've really only lost three in a row, which sounds a lot better than saying they've lost six of their last seven, even though they have actually lost six of their last seven.  I think OSUe will be ok for a couple more years at least.

One thing they might want to think about doing is not getting matched up in as many BCS bowls.  They might want to try competing in the 2nd tier of games for a while and see if they can win a bowl game at that level.

If they don't change up something pretty quick, at the pace they're going they might end up with a bowl winning percentage as bad as Arkansas'.

[LRRandy]

Arkansas has only been in one I think, and although the team they played didn't officially win, I think it got counted as a loss for the Hogs too, which is kind of confusing, but that's what happens sometimes when you get matched up with cheaters.

I don't think Arkansas' poor bowl record comes into play as to whether or not OSUe will continue to be eligible for post season play although I did notice that the one win OSUe has in their last seven bowl games was sandwiched in between three losses before the win and after the win, so they've really only lost three in a row, which sounds a lot better than saying they've lost six of their last seven, even though they have actually lost six of their last seven.  I think OSUe will be ok for a couple more years at least.

One thing they might want to think about doing is not getting matched up in as many BCS bowls.  They might want to try competing in the 2nd tier of games for a while and see if they can win a bowl game at that level.

If they don't change up something pretty quick, at the pace they're going they might end up with a bowl winning percentage as bad as Arkansas'.

well 9 BCS bowl games played. 6 wins in those BCS games including a National Championship. You take your bowl results. I'll take mine. ( snicker )

[ChitownHawg]

Arkansas has only been in one I think, and although the team they played didn't officially win, I think it got counted as a loss for the Hogs too, which is kind of confusing, but that's what happens sometimes when you get matched up with cheaters.

I don't think Arkansas' poor bowl record comes into play as to whether or not OSUe will continue to be eligible for post season play although I did notice that the one win OSUe has in their last seven bowl games was sandwiched in between three losses before the win and after the win, so they've really only lost three in a row, which sounds a lot better than saying they've lost six of their last seven, even though they have actually lost six of their last seven.  I think OSUe will be ok for a couple more years at least.

One thing they might want to think about doing is not getting matched up in as many BCS bowls.  They might want to try competing in the 2nd tier of games for a while and see if they can win a bowl game at that level.

If they don't change up something pretty quick, at the pace they're going they might end up with a bowl winning percentage as bad as Arkansas'.

Maybe they can make it to the Rosa Bowl now that Bret is at Arkansas. 

[uams1989]

Richt isn't on the same level as Saban, Miles, Spurrier, or Meyer, but he is a solid coach, who will probably ended up in the HOF.

He is only 54 years old and has the top program in his division.  So far he has:

8 bowl wins
7 Top 10 finishes
5 SEC titles games
2 SEC titles
2x SEC COY
8 seasons with 10+ wins vs one losing season
12-1 against GA Tech

Not to get off topic, but, I think Richt's obstacle to get to the summit is one simple but major thing. His teams are not disciplined. They have led the SEC for probably all of his years as coach with the most penalties. Flags killed them in the Auburn game last year. Were it not for the UGA penalties, Auburn doesn't have a miracle.

And even Richt doesn't care. I don't remember which game it was but I saw a sideline reporter ask him at halftime about the excessive number of UGA penalties. He looked at her and said "Doesn't matter."

I know that's simplistic but when I watch Georgia play, I always notice the silly penalties. It's always excessive and I believe he's lost games because of that. 

[gmarv]

i,m looking forward to the days when i can come to hogville read all the whining and  b@#thing about our 8 win seasons.then i know were getting there.

[HoopS]

The league has changed. 


Auburn has Gus, not Chizik
Ole Miss has Freeze, not Nutt
MSU has Mullen, not Croom
A&M joined and brought Sumlin, not Sherman


Bama still has Saban.  LSU still had Miles and brought in Chavis.


We can improve greatly and still have a mediocre record. 

[Pork Twain]

The league has changed. 


Auburn has Gus, not Chizik
Ole Miss has Freeze, not Nutt
MSU has Mullen, not Croom
A&M joined and brought Sumlin, not Sherman


Bama still has Saban.  LSU still had Miles and brought in Chavis.


We can improve greatly and still have a mediocre record.

Because all other things being equal, we will never have the recuriting advantage any of those schools have.  We are like an ugly girl and they are like hot chicks.  We will all get drinks bought for us, ours will just happen later in the night and the guys buying will not look quite as good.

[Hogwild]

The league has changed. 


Auburn has Gus, not Chizik
Ole Miss has Freeze, not Nutt
MSU has Mullen, not Croom

Between 2006 & 2010 those three coaches combined to win SEC COY 4 times.