So the obvious question from a general fan of baseball

[lowandaway]

People are just confusing academic scholarships with needs-based and merit-based financial aid. Regardless, Vanderbilt is able to offer additional funding that other schools cannot.

Name another SEC school that has a yearly cost anywhere near $60,000.  As stated, Vanderbilt offers this to all of their students.  Does it help with baseball recruiting?  Sure!  Tyler Ferguson, a potential 1st round draft pick next year, comes from a "poor family".  He gets his entire education paid for through a needs-based scholarship so he doesn't chew up any baseball money.  But, that's not why it was created.  Baseball just happens to benefit from that situation.

[ricepig]

Name another SEC school that has a yearly cost anywhere near $60,000.  As stated, Vanderbilt offers this to all of their students.  Does it help with baseball recruiting?  Sure!  Tyler Ferguson, a potential 1st round draft pick next year, comes from a "poor family".  He gets his entire education paid for through a needs-based scholarship so he doesn't chew up any baseball money.  But, that's not why it was created.  Baseball just happens to benefit from that situation.

And Auburn just happens to donate to churches.

[Baseball Hog]

Name another SEC school that has a yearly cost anywhere near $60,000.  As stated, Vanderbilt offers this to all of their students.  Does it help with baseball recruiting?  Sure!  Tyler Ferguson, a potential 1st round draft pick next year, comes from a "poor family".  He gets his entire education paid for through a needs-based scholarship so he doesn't chew up any baseball money.  But, that's not why it was created.  Baseball just happens to benefit from that situation.

Are you implying that every graduating Senior that's parents are impoverished (even if the kid has a 2.8 GPA) could go to Vandy on a full ride without student loans?

And regardless, the point has been lost.  You just copped the the fact that Vandy has hugely unfair advantages because they are private vs. the rest of the SEC.  That's all I'm trying to say.

[jry04]

Name another SEC school that has a yearly cost anywhere near $60,000.  As stated, Vanderbilt offers this to all of their students.  Does it help with baseball recruiting?  Sure!  Tyler Ferguson, a potential 1st round draft pick next year, comes from a "poor family".  He gets his entire education paid for through a needs-based scholarship so he doesn't chew up any baseball money.  But, that's not why it was created.  Baseball just happens to benefit from that situation.

I never said it was created for baseball. I am just saying it is a huge benefit that other SEC teams do not have. Vanderbilt would not be anywhere near as good as they have been in baseball without that financial aid, and to be honest they have underachieved greatly until this season considering all the highly drafted players they are able to get to campus.

With that said, I don't dislike Vanderbilt. If Arkansas was able to take advantage of something like that I would want them to. 

[lowandaway]

Are you implying that every graduating Senior that's parents are impoverished (even if the kid has a 2.8 GPA) could go to Vandy on a full ride without student loans?

And regardless, the point has been lost.  You just copped the the fact that Vandy has hugely unfair advantages because they are private vs. the rest of the SEC.  That's all I'm trying to say.

Obviously, there are academic requirements for non-athletes so I doubt there are many regular students with a 2.8 GPA.  But, yes, every student has the opportunity to graduate owing no money through need-based scholarships.  Some students may qualify for only $5,000 per year while others qualify for a full ride, depending on family income.  What makes it fair is that these scholarships are offered to every student, not just the athletes.  If they didn't, only the very affluent could afford to go there, loans or not.

Athletes are treated differently in that they can be admitted to a school like Vanderbilt or Duke or Stanford or any of the Ivy League schools without meeting the academic requirements of a regular student.  That's why you see athletes at these schools with a 2.8 (or lower) GPA. 

Ultimately, my question to you is, is your opinion based on research and facts, or is it simply a gut reaction to the fact that Vandy had a great year and Arkansas did not so Vandy must be cheating.  If it's facts, I'd be more than happy to see your sources.

[lowandaway]

I never said it was created for baseball. I am just saying it is a huge benefit that other SEC teams do not have. Vanderbilt would not be anywhere near as good as they have been in baseball without that financial aid, and to be honest they have underachieved greatly until this season considering all the highly drafted players they are able to get to campus.

With that said, I don't dislike Vanderbilt. If Arkansas was able to take advantage of something like that I would want them to.

I don't disagree with that at all.

[ricepig]

Obviously, there are academic requirements for non-athletes so I doubt there are many regular students with a 2.8 GPA.  But, yes, every student has the opportunity to graduate owing no money through need-based scholarships.  Some students may qualify for only $5,000 per year while others qualify for a full ride, depending on family income.  What makes it fair is that these scholarships are offered to every student, not just the athletes.  If they didn't, only the very affluent could afford to go there, loans or not.

Athletes are treated differently in that they can be admitted to a school like Vanderbilt or Duke or Stanford or any of the Ivy League schools without meeting the academic requirements of a regular student.  That's why you see athletes at these schools with a 2.8 (or lower) GPA. 

Ultimately, my question to you is, is your opinion based on research and facts, or is it simply a gut reaction to the fact that Vandy had a great year and Arkansas did not so Vandy must be cheating.  If it's facts, I'd be more than happy to see your sources.

Truthfully, Vandy has way under achieved in relationship to their recruiting rankings. Recruiting rankings which are helped by their ability to give full scholarships to the vast majority of players.

[lowandaway]

Truthfully, Vandy has way under achieved in relationship to their recruiting rankings. Recruiting rankings which are helped by their ability to give full scholarships to the vast majority of players.

Yeah, I wish recruiting rankings was an exact science.  It would save every major sport hundreds of millions of dollars in the draft if it was.

[ricepig]

Yeah, I wish recruiting rankings was an exact science.  It would save every major sport hundreds of millions of dollars in the draft if it was.

The answer to your earlier question on school costs, most of the top out of state tuitions are in the $40,000+ range in the SEC.

[lowandaway]

The answer to your earlier question on school costs, most of the top out of state tuitions are in the $40,000+ range in the SEC.

Yes, college is expensive anywhere you go.  But $60,000 is a lot more than $40,000 (at least to me).  That's a difference of $80,000 over 4 years.  Some people by houses for that much.  And at private schools, there's no such thing as in-state and out-of-state tuition, so everybody pays the same.

[ricepig]

Yes, college is expensive anywhere you go.  But $60,000 is a lot more than $40,000 (at least to me).  That's a difference of $80,000 over 4 years.  Some people by houses for that much.  And at private schools, there's no such thing as in-state and out-of-state tuition, so everybody pays the same.

Nobody going to Vandy buys a house for $80,000, lol. As far as tuition and in-state/out of state, it makes the other public schools rely on it more often, we can't give all the out of state guys full rides as you do.

[Vandyhog4]

Truthfully, Vandy has way under achieved in relationship to their recruiting rankings. Recruiting rankings which are helped by their ability to give full scholarships to the vast majority of players.

Yeah, I mean in the last 5 years they've only won 1 National Championship, been to 2 College World Series, gone to 2 other Super Regionals, won 2 regular season SEC championships, and won at least 50 games 3 times. Complete failure really.

[ucahogfan]

Yeah, I mean in the last 5 years they've only won 1 National Championship, been to 2 College World Series, gone to 2 other Super Regionals, won 2 regular season SEC championships, and won at least 50 games 3 times. Complete failure really.

Yeah, and it took a team with around 7 potential 1st round draft picks on it (Beede, Fulmer, Buehler, Ferguson, Swanson, Stone, Reynolds) to win it all.  No other team in the country has that many future 1st round picks and that isn't even factoring in Jordan Sheffield who RS this year.

[ricepig]

Yeah, I mean in the last 5 years they've only won 1 National Championship, been to 2 College World Series, gone to 2 other Super Regionals, won 2 regular season SEC championships, and won at least 50 games 3 times. Complete failure really.

Obviously your Vanderbilt education didn't provide you with the ability to comprehend the written word, please find the word "failure" in my post.

[lowandaway]

Nobody going to Vandy buys a house for $80,000, lol. As far as tuition and in-state/out of state, it makes the other public schools rely on it more often, we can't give all the out of state guys full rides as you do.

The point was, the average family looking for a place to send their kid to college, baseball or not, is going to think twice about an $80,000 difference over 4 years.  Maybe you or I wouldn't by a house for 80K, but, believe it or not, there are people who do.  Prolonging the debt through loans doesn't help much.  So, without need-based scholarships, only the most affluent families could afford to send their kids to a place like Vanderbilt.

[lowandaway]

Yeah, and it took a team with around 7 potential 1st round draft picks on it (Beede, Fulmer, Buehler, Ferguson, Swanson, Stone, Reynolds) to win it all.  No other team in the country has that many future 1st round picks and that isn't even factoring in Jordan Sheffield who RS this year.

Reynolds and Stone were both "Top 1000" by Perfect Game so how's that for recruiting?

[ricepig]

The point was, the average family looking for a place to send their kid to college, baseball or not, is going to think twice about an $80,000 difference over 4 years.  Maybe you or I wouldn't by a house for 80K, but, believe it or not, there are people who do.  Prolonging the debt through loans doesn't help much.  So, without need-based loans, only the most affluent families could afford to send their kids to a place like Vanderbilt.

I bet income level of the parents of Vandy students is the highest in the SEC. I had a couple of cousins from Memphis attend, they're not poor, haha.

[ricepig]

Reynolds and Stone were both "Top 1000" by Perfect Game so how's that for recruiting?

Gee, do you think all your kids would be first round draft choices?

[lowandaway]

I bet income level of the parents of Vandy students is the highest in the SEC. I had a couple of cousins from Memphis attend, they're not poor, haha.

You may be right, but I'll bet there's no difference in the incomes of baseball player's parents at SEC schools.

[Vandyhog4]

Yeah, and it took a team with around 7 potential 1st round draft picks on it (Beede, Fulmer, Buehler, Ferguson, Swanson, Stone, Reynolds) to win it all.  No other team in the country has that many future 1st round picks and that isn't even factoring in Jordan Sheffield who RS this year.

Recruit talent, develop talent, and win with talent.  Isn't that the objective?  Of those guys you named, Beede was the only one drafted in the first 13 rounds out of high school. 

I'd also say that Virginia has as much if not more talent than Vandy, especially with position players.  They must have some unfair recruiting advantage as well. 

[ucahogfan]

Reynolds and Stone were both "Top 1000" by Perfect Game so how's that for recruiting?

Both guys also grew up less than an hour from Nashville and didn't really participate in the summer showcase circuit.  Corbin knew exactly who he was getting when he signed these two.  And Stone wasn't "Top 1000" either.  Stone was also well known in-state from what I remember and he might not be a 1st round pick because he doesn't throw hard enough.

[Vandyhog4]

Obviously your Vanderbilt education didn't provide you with the ability to comprehend the written word, please find the word "failure" in my post.

Sarcasm and hyperbole.

[ucahogfan]

Recruit talent, develop talent, and win with talent.  Isn't that the objective?  Of those guys you named, Beede was the only one drafted in the first 13 rounds out of high school. 

I'd also say that Virginia has as much if not more talent than Vandy, especially with position players.  They must have some unfair recruiting advantage as well.

With the new draft rules, looking at where a player is drafted is horrible.  Top 100 guys go undrafted all together if they are deemed unsignable.

PG Top 100 Guys on Vanderbilt's Team
Jordan Sheffield - #38 in 2013
Carson Fulmer - #57 in 2012
Rhett Wiseman - #58 in 2012
Walker Buehler - #67 in 2012
Tyler Beede - #15 in 2011
Philip Pfeifer - #59 in 2011 (wasn't on the spring roster, but what happened there?

That is 6 guys on the Vanderbilt team who were all highly rated and could have been high draft picks out of high school if they were signable.  You know how many top 100 players the Hogs had on their roster this year - 0.

[ricepig]

Sarcasm and hyperbole.

Makes about as much sense as me saying we took 2 out of 3 from you......

[ucahogfan]

Makes about as much sense as me saying we took 2 out of 3 from you......

[Vandyhog4]

Makes about as much sense as me saying we took 2 out of 3 from you......

Congrats.  There were a few teams who failed to make it out of their regionals who took 2 of 3 from us.  That's baseball. 

[lowandaway]

Let's just blame everything on the fact that baseball only allows 11.7 scholarships.  We know that if every team could give every player a full ride we wouldn't be having this conversation.  If you perceive Vanderbilt to have an unfair advantage, okay.  But they don't get that advantage in any other major sport.  Now, let's talk about why Alabama is so good in football every year and why a team like Stanford is a top 10 football team and we're not.  I'm sure the conspiracy theorists will have something to say about that.

[ricepig]

Let's just blame everything on the fact that baseball only allows 11.7 scholarships.  We know that if every team could give every player a full ride we wouldn't be having this conversation.  If you perceive Vanderbilt to have an unfair advantage, okay.  But they don't get that advantage in any other major sport.  Now, let's talk about why Alabama is so good in football every year and why a team like Stanford is a top 10 football team and we're not.  I'm sure the conspiracy theorists will have something to say about that.

I bet it helps your bowling team too!

[lowandaway]

I bet it helps your bowling team too!

Well, you're probably right about that.  Nobody touches Vandy bowling!!

[Baseball Hog]

Ultimately, my question to you is, is your opinion based on research and facts, or is it simply a gut reaction to the fact that Vandy had a great year and Arkansas did not so Vandy must be cheating.  If it's facts, I'd be more than happy to see your sources.

Like I said, I have talked several times with a former Vandy player who told me all of this.  A recruiter came into his house and told him "why take half a scholly at Florida when we can take care of you at Vandy".

And I agree, the root of the issue is the 11.7 schollies.  This makes private schools (and even public ones) have to bend the rules as much as they can for an advantage.

[lowandaway]

Like I said, I have talked several times with a former Vandy player who told me all of this.  A recruiter came into his house and told him "why take half a scholly at Florida when we can take care of you at Vandy".

And I agree, the root of the issue is the 11.7 schollies.  This makes private schools (and even public ones) have to bend the rules as much as they can for an advantage.

Not exactly the "facts" I was looking for.  This former Vandy player (name?) may have qualified for a need-based scholarship based on his family's income, so he can take a 50% baseball scholarship and make up the rest with a need-based scholarship.  Again, it is an advantage, but it's certainly not illegal.

[ricepig]

Not exactly the "facts" I was looking for.  This former Vandy player (name?) may have qualified for a need-based scholarship based on his family's income, so he can take a 50% baseball scholarship and make up the rest with a need-based scholarship.  Again, it is an advantage, but it's certainly not illegal.

No one says it's illegal, just an advantage you have over the rest of us. We can't offer a baseball player a need-based scholarship, you can.

[lowandaway]

No one says it's illegal, just an advantage you have over the rest of us. We can't offer a baseball player a need-based scholarship, you can.

I completely agree.  That has never been the debate.  It was inferred that what Vandy was doing was somehow an NCAA violation.  It clearly is not.

[lowandaway]

Then they are violating NCAA rules.  I don't know what you want me to say.  It happens, that much I know without a doubt.

[ucahogfan]

For example of how difficult it is to overcome this advantage for Vanderbilt:

The most notable recruit I remember the Hogs beating Vandy for in the last 5 years is Robbie Ray in 2010.  He was a Brentwood boy who was committed to Vandy, but ultimately signed with the Hogs.  I know Ray ultimately signed with the Nationals in the draft (boy did that make DVH mad), but DVH told us what it took to get Ray to sign with the Hogs over Vandy.  He said that Ray was going to get 1.0 of the 11.7 if he had made it to campus.  That is the amount of money it took to lure Ray away from Vandy.

[lowandaway]

For example of how difficult it is to overcome this advantage for Vanderbilt:

The most notable recruit I remember the Hogs beating Vandy for in the last 5 years is Robbie Ray in 2010.  He was a Brentwood boy who was committed to Vandy, but ultimately signed with the Hogs.  I know Ray ultimately signed with the Nationals in the draft (boy did that make DVH mad), but DVH told us what it took to get Ray to sign with the Hogs over Vandy.  He said that Ray was going to get 1.0 of the 11.7 if he had made it to campus.  That is the amount of money it took to lure Ray away from Vandy.

It's easy to use anecdotes to make a point.  Beyond the money, there may have been several other advantages for this kid staying at Vandy:  proximity to home, immediate playing time, coaches, university, etc.  And if he was that good, he probably deserved a full scholarship.  I doubt that Vandy would have gotten him for less than that unless they could tack on a need-based scholarship also.

[ricepig]

It's easy to use anecdotes to make a point.  Beyond the money, there may have been several other advantages for this kid staying at Vandy:  proximity to home, immediate playing time, coaches, university, etc.  And if he was that good, he probably deserved a full scholarship.  I doubt that Vandy would have gotten him for less than that unless they could tack on a need-based scholarship also.

How many kids do you think that are playing in the SEC, much less the NCAA, are on a full scholarship?

[ucahogfan]

How many kids do you think that are playing in the SEC, much less the NCAA, are on a full scholarship?

How many kids play baseball at Vanderbilt?  Whatever that number is the answer.

[lowandaway]

How many kids play baseball at Vanderbilt?  Whatever that number is the answer.

Great.  Just blurt out anything that makes you feel good.  Nothing to back that up.  Gee, I forgot to mention all the cars DVH gives his top recruits.  I know that for a fact!

[ucahogfan]

Great.  Just blurt out anything that makes you feel good.  Nothing to back that up.  Gee, I forgot to mention all the cars DVH gives his top recruits.  I know that for a fact!

You missed the obvious sarcasm didn't you?

I'm sure that there are a couple of Hogs on full rides if you combine baseball/academic/lottery for in-state kids.  Rumor was that Sam Hentges had a full ride if he came to Arkansas which was almost certainly a combo of baseball/academic.

[ricepig]

Great.  Just blurt out anything that makes you feel good.  Nothing to back that up.  Gee, I forgot to mention all the cars DVH gives his top recruits.  I know that for a fact!

Well, since you are a private university, we'll never know what they receive at Vandy. You've already stated that everyone at Vanderbilt is eligible for need based aid if needed. We can offer some academic money if they qualify, discount of tuition based on where they reside, and some baseball money.

[lowandaway]

Well, since you are a private university, we'll never know what they receive at Vandy. You've already stated that everyone at Vanderbilt is eligible for need based aid if needed. We can offer some academic money if they qualify, discount of tuition based on where they reside, and some baseball money.

I think that point has been made crystal clear.  But, there actually are many baseball players that wouldn't qualify for a need-based scholarship so they rely only on baseball money.  To say that every kid on the baseball team has a full ride is incorrect.

[ricepig]

I think that point has been made crystal clear.  But, there actually are many baseball players that wouldn't qualify for a need-based scholarship so they rely only on baseball money.  To say that every kid on the baseball team has a full ride is incorrect.

You know this for fact?

[lowandaway]

You know this for fact?

Yes

[ricepig]

Yes

Oh, ok, continue on with these facts, or does Corbin give everyone a car?

[lowandaway]

Oh, ok, continue on with these facts, or does Corbin give everyone a car?

Check your PM's

[Baseball Hog]

To say that every kid on the baseball team has a full ride is incorrect.

Ok every single one probably doesn't.  90% do.

And no I don't have a link.  I bet you don't have one either.

[lowandaway]

Ok every single one probably doesn't.  90% do.

And no I don't have a link.  I bet you don't have one either.

Well, I wouldn't go to Vegas if I were you.

[HognotinMemphis]

The first page was good. The second, not so much. I did get my answer as to how Vandy has won a NC and the Hogs have not.

[onebadrubi]

The first page was good. The second, not so much. I did get my answer as to how Vandy has won a NC and the Hogs have not.

Just out of curiosity, why hasn't SMU performed better in baseball?