So the obvious question from a general fan of baseball

[HognotinMemphis]

"general" being the key word. How has Vandy come to win the CWS without having the baseball tradition of Arkansas over the past 35 years or so? And why has Arkansas not been able to do it? And please keep the answers serious. This is a serious question, not an attempt to upset any of you who are easily upset. Thx.

[rolyat_2008]

because they have been lucky to get elite players to campus time and time again

[ricepig]

They are able to get their draft choice signee's to campus, simple as that.

[HognotinMemphis]

because  they have been lucky to get elite players to campus time and time again

To this I would reply: "lucky" and "time and time again" are mutually exclusive. If you are consistently doing a great job, it is not luck. So follow up to this from me is, how are they doing it? Thx.

[ricepig]

To this I would reply: "lucky" and "time and time again" are mutually exclusive. If you are consistently doing a great job, it is not luck. So follow up to this from me is, how are they doing it? Thx.

Because they are a private school, they have a few more ways to get their players more scholarship money. It's not illegal, but we aren't able to match it. Throw in their recent success with players being drafted, especially pitchers, and it adds up. Of course, we did take 2 out of 3 from them.

[ucahogfan]

To this I would reply: "lucky" and "time and time again" are mutually exclusive. If you are consistently doing a great job, it is not luck. So follow up to this from me is, how are they doing it? Thx.

How a team fares in the MLB Draft is pure luck.  Sure, signees from certain schools are considered tough signs, but how a team fares in the draft is pure luck.  Great example is the Hogs this year.  We finally caught a break in the draft and are getting great players to campus like Vandy does on an annual basis.

And like ricepig said, they have the private school advantage.  Not only do they have the allotted 11.7 scholarships for baseball, they don't have to advertise the other scholarships they give out like public schools do.  They could tell someone like Tyler Beede that he gets 50% of his school covered by baseball money and the other 50% covered by an "academic scholarship."  Essentially, every single player on that Vandy team could be on a full-ride between athletic and academic scholarships.  That is an advantage that is almost impossible to overcome.  And with the rise of Vandy, Stanford has fallen back a little bit because the kids they normally got now sign with Vandy.

[Baseball Hog]

Unlimited scholarships help.

[Kevin]

Like baseball hog says that's baseball.

Vandy could not get out of their regional when they had David price, mike minor, and Pedro alverez on the same team

I thought this was one of their more average teams.

[rightdp]

Since when does baseball tradition win baseball games? 

[SPAL]

I think I know where this is going.

[TNhawgfan]

Another great job of trolling by HiM without appearing like he is trolling

[rupert]

Tim Corbin and his staff are due all the credit...they have recruited and coached-up some mighty fine pitchers....love to hear Corbin talk x's and o's and why he did things in the game...

wonder if Van Horn gave him a scouting report on Virginia???

[onebadrubi]

Having two first rounders out of high school sign is pretty big, and now they are both juniors.  Having a top pitching staff with well rounded hitting.  Also, don't forget they were gifted that first game

[lowandaway]

How a team fares in the MLB Draft is pure luck.  Sure, signees from certain schools are considered tough signs, but how a team fares in the draft is pure luck.  Great example is the Hogs this year.  We finally caught a break in the draft and are getting great players to campus like Vandy does on an annual basis.

And like ricepig said, they have the private school advantage.  Not only do they have the allotted 11.7 scholarships for baseball, they don't have to advertise the other scholarships they give out like public schools do.  They could tell someone like Tyler Beede that he gets 50% of his school covered by baseball money and the other 50% covered by an "academic scholarship."  Essentially, every single player on that Vandy team could be on a full-ride between athletic and academic scholarships.  That is an advantage that is almost impossible to overcome.  And with the rise of Vandy, Stanford has fallen back a little bit because the kids they normally got now sign with Vandy.

Vanderbilt baseball players do not get academic scholarships.  They offer every student on campus a need-based scholarship.  So, if an elite baseball player whose family is poor, like Pedro Alvarez, comes to Vandy, he can get his entire education paid for without using baseball money.  Of course, baseball players from middle income families or better won't qualify so they're the ones who get the baseball money.

[bphi11ips]

Like Kevin said, it's baseball.

Arkansas was in exactly the same situation in 2012 as Vanderbilt was in at the end of the first week, and Corbin did exactly what Van Horn did - he saved his best pitchers for the championship series.  The difference is that Vanderbilt squeaked out a win on Saturday and Arkansas didn't.  The series with Virginia could have gone either way.  Neither team played very well. 

The second factor is that baseball is now a rich white man's sport.  Vanderbilt is a rich white man's school, but Corbin has needs-based scholarships to fund athletes who lack the advantages of the upper middle class.  Vanderbilt has better athletes than Arkansas.   

[Horsesrus]

As mentioned Vandy does have some advantages financially.  When I was looking at colleges for my daughter (who is now a Hog I should add), Vandy pays the difference between a family's Expected Family Contribution (EFC) from the FAFSA form up to what it costs to attend.  If a middle class family's EFC is 15k, Vandy picks up the remaining 40k or whatever the cost is these days via grants that don't have to be paid back.  So the poorer kids get covered with grants, allowing the middle, upper class kids to get more partials and/or full athletic scholarships. 

[trippigs]

Due to a unique set of circumstances.......elite private university, university and sports are aligned but not in a typical manner,  attractive scholarship opportunities, very good coach, nationally recognized program on a hot streak, puts kids in the pros, Nashville is an attractive location, etc. I really like what they do and how they have done it. It is a clean model of success on many levels which makes it very hard to duplicate.

[Baseball Hog]

Vanderbilt baseball players do not get academic scholarships.  They offer every student on campus a need-based scholarship.  So, if an elite baseball player whose family is poor, like Pedro Alvarez, comes to Vandy, he can get his entire education paid for without using baseball money.  Of course, baseball players from middle income families or better won't qualify so they're the ones who get the baseball money.

The point is, Pedro Alverez wouldn't be at Vandy if he wasn't an elite baseball player.

Since they can pick and choose academic schollies with no oversight (like public schools) they just happen to give 20 full rides to elite baseball players.

[yraciv]

Another great job of trolling by HiM without appearing like he is trolling

You know that is his purpose in life.  Unfortunately for him, this one has a clear answer.  It's their academics advantage plain and simple that no school other than Stanford can offer.  The benefit of this in a limited scholarship sport like baseball is tremendous. 

Are general and casual the same thing??  It's okay HIM if you want to label yourself a casual fan.  We already knew you didn't tune in for more than an inning here or there.

[Vandyhog4]

Due to a unique set of circumstances.......elite private university, university and sports are aligned but not in a typical manner,  attractive scholarship opportunities, very good coach, nationally recognized program on a hot streak, puts kids in the pros, Nashville is an attractive location, etc. I really like what they do and how they have done it. It is a clean model of success on many levels which makes it very hard to duplicate.

This is the most accurate answer yet.

Corbin is a fantastic coach and recruiter who has the advantage of recruiting good kids to an elite academic institution. His staff hires have also proven successful (See Erik Bakich, Josh Holliday, and Derek Johnson).

The unlimited "academic scholarship" garbage is the uninformed's misguided rationale to explain Vandy's success. As Horsesrus explained, Vanderbilt uses need-based financial aid to offset cost of attendance, which is now over $62,000. This isn't an academic scholarship, and these need-based grants are also available to the general population of students who qualify.

Without the availability of additional student aid, most private institutions would be at a serious disadvantage in recruiting against state schools that can offer lower tuition (an extreme benefit considering the 11.7 scholarship limit). 

Corbin has also effectively recruited areas of the country that are not heavily recruited by the rest of the conference. 

Overall it comes down to the fact that Vanderbilt has a great coach, who hires great assistants, and recruits great players.

You also need a little luck and timely hitting.

[kennymayne]

So he gets all these 1st rounders to campus purely because he is a better recruiter than everyone else? Sorry, not buying it.

[lowandaway]

So he gets all these 1st rounders to campus purely because he is a better recruiter than everyone else? Sorry, not buying it.

Vanderbilt recruits itself.  Elite education, wonderful city, a head coach who is famous for being a good person.  If the education is paid for, who could turn that opportunity down?

[tennesseehogwild]

Because they are a private school, they have a few more ways to get their players more scholarship money. It's not illegal, but we aren't able to match it. Throw in their recent success with players being drafted, especially pitchers, and it adds up. Of course, we did take 2 out of 3 from them.

A whole lot of what Rice is saying plus Corbin is a helluva coach. Also the Middle Tennesse area of high school baseball is really underrated. There are some really good players in the Murfreesboro, Tullahoma, Davidson County, etc area that Vandy seems to have a stronghold on.

[Baseball Hog]

The unlimited "academic scholarship" garbage is the uninformed's misguided rationale to explain Vandy's success. As Horsesrus explained, Vanderbilt uses need-based financial aid to offset cost of attendance, which is now over $62,000. This isn't an academic scholarship, and these need-based grants are also available to the general population of students who qualify.

Without the availability of additional student aid, most private institutions would be at a serious disadvantage in recruiting against state schools that can offer lower tuition (an extreme benefit considering the 11.7 scholarship limit). 

I'm not trying to belittle the program, and obviously a lot of other factors played into the NC as well, but you are wrong.  There is more to it.

Bottom line is this:  there are guys playing on Vandy's baseball team that are getting a lot of academic money that would never have been offered that money if they weren't great athletes. 

[lowandaway]

I'm not trying to belittle the program, and obviously a lot of other factors played into the NC as well, but you are wrong.  There is more to it.

Bottom line is this:  there are guys playing on Vandy's baseball team that are getting a lot of academic money that would never have been offered that money if they weren't great athletes.

But, it's not academic money and it has nothing to do with their baseball skill.  Every student at Vandy is offered the same opportunity based on financial need.  Baseball scholarships are the same at Vandy as they are at any other school.  Only if a player's family is also financially eligible for additional aid do they get anything else.  So, players that are from families that do not qualify financially, all they can get is part of the 11.7 scholarships.

[Baseball Hog]

But, it's not academic money and it has nothing to do with their baseball skill.  Every student at Vandy is offered the same opportunity based on financial need.  Baseball scholarships are the same at Vandy as they are at any other school.  Only if a player's family is also financially eligible for additional aid do they get anything else.  So, players that are from families that do not qualify financially, all they can get is part of the 11.7 scholarships.

It IS academic money.  There are guys that wouldn't have gotten a dime of academic schollie at one public university that are on academic full rides at Vandy.  You think that these guys just happen to be elite baseball players is a coincidence?

And the lions share of the need based academic money that you're talking about is made up of loans.  You think Tyler Beede had student loans out?

If you're so arrogant to believe that Vandy is just so much better than everyone else at recruiting that they can lure away 1st rounders every other year when hardly anyone else can, your'e blinded.

I'm telling you for 100% fact that when a Vandy recruiter comes into a home, the biggest gun in his arsenal is that the tuition will be 100% covered.  Maybe that's partially one of the 11.7 but most of it is coming from ACADEMIC money.

Point is, public universities can't do this.  DVH has to sell that the recruit may only get 1/2 a scholly.  Now, they could apply for academic aid but they would be in the same pool as everyone else, not favorited because they are good at baseball.

[Horsesrus]

It IS academic money.  There are guys that wouldn't have gotten a dime of academic schollie at one public university that are on academic full rides at Vandy.  You think that these guys just happen to be elite baseball players is a coincidence?

And the lions share of the need based academic money that you're talking about is made up of loans.  You think Tyler Beede had student loans out?

If you're so arrogant to believe that Vandy is just so much better than everyone else at recruiting that they can lure away 1st rounders every other year when hardly anyone else can, your'e blinded.

I'm telling you for 100% fact that when a Vandy recruiter comes into a home, the biggest gun in his arsenal is that the tuition will be 100% covered.  Maybe that's partially one of the 11.7 but most of it is coming from ACADEMIC money.

Point is, public universities can't do this.  DVH has to sell that the recruit may only get 1/2 a scholly.  Now, they could apply for academic aid but they would be in the same pool as everyone else, not favorited because they are good at baseball.

http://www.vanderbilt.edu/financialaid/undergraduate/

None of the need based financial aid money at Vanderbilt is made up of loans unless the student chooses not to participate in the work study part of the grants they receive.  Students are also allowed loans to help with the EFC part of their tuition.  The only argument to be had for baseball players is they get accepted into Vanderbilt on a much easier standard than the other students.  If your EFC is low and you can get into Vandy, it is a no-brainer to attend such a great school for what is essentially your EFC to go to a state school.  Vanderbilt's endowment is $3.6 billion more than 4x Arkansas.

Student A - Horsesus daughter no sports - 20,000 EFC need based aid 42,000 paid by Vandy which consists of grants, scholarships and work study obligation but no loans.  Student can take out 20,000 in loans if they choose to cover the family EFC.

Student B - Baseball player - 20,000 EFC need based aid 42,000 paid by Vandy, 1/3 baseball scholarship covers EFC. 

The big difference is Student A needs a mid 30s ACT, great grades and impressive extra curricular record.

Student B needs a good ACT score pretty good grades and impressive baseball talent.

[Vandyhog4]

It IS academic money.  There are guys that wouldn't have gotten a dime of academic schollie at one public university that are on academic full rides at Vandy.  You think that these guys just happen to be elite baseball players is a coincidence?

And the lions share of the need based academic money that you're talking about is made up of loans.  You think Tyler Beede had student loans out?

If you're so arrogant to believe that Vandy is just so much better than everyone else at recruiting that they can lure away 1st rounders every other year when hardly anyone else can, your'e blinded.

I'm telling you for 100% fact that when a Vandy recruiter comes into a home, the biggest gun in his arsenal is that the tuition will be 100% covered.  Maybe that's partially one of the 11.7 but most of it is coming from ACADEMIC money.

Point is, public universities can't do this.  DVH has to sell that the recruit may only get 1/2 a scholly.  Now, they could apply for academic aid but they would be in the same pool as everyone else, not favorited because they are good at baseball.

Are you saying that Vanderbilt is violating NCAA rules? 

[ricepig]

Are you saying that Vanderbilt is violating NCAA rules? 

I think he is saying that Vandy gets to play by different rules than the rest of their conference brethren.

[Baseball Hog]

Are you saying that Vanderbilt is violating NCAA rules? 

No, not at all.  Let me break this down for you.

--All Universities hand out academic scholarships.
--Public Universities have state guidelines to follow and strict oversight when handing out academic scholarships.
--Private Universities have no oversight when handing out academic scholarships.
--Thus, if they want to give some random kid with a 2.8 HS GPA an academic full ride because he's a PG top 500 player, they can.  They don't have to be fair about it.

And I don't mean to say Vandy is the only one that does this.  EVERY private school does this.  However, there are only a handful of private schools that care enough about baseball to do it.

[A_R_K_A_N_S_A_S]

No, not at all.  Let me break this down for you.

--All Universities hand out academic scholarships.
--Public Universities have state guidelines to follow and strict oversight when handing out academic scholarships.
--Private Universities have no oversight when handing out academic scholarships.
--Thus, if they want to give some random kid with a 2.8 HS GPA an academic full ride because he's a PG top 500 player, they can.  They don't have to be fair about it.

And I don't mean to say Vandy is the only one that does this.  EVERY private school does this.  However, there are only a handful of private schools that care enough about baseball to do it......

Baseball Hog, I'm going to try to finish your last comment, correct me if this is not what you meant........and are able to attract the top talent in the country.

[Vandyhog4]

No, not at all.  Let me break this down for you.

--All Universities hand out academic scholarships.
--Public Universities have state guidelines to follow and strict oversight when handing out academic scholarships.
--Private Universities have no oversight when handing out academic scholarships.
--Thus, if they want to give some random kid with a 2.8 HS GPA an academic full ride because he's a PG top 500 player, they can.  They don't have to be fair about it.

And I don't mean to say Vandy is the only one that does this.  EVERY private school does this.  However, there are only a handful of private schools that care enough about baseball to do it.

The only problem is that the scenario you just described violates NCAA rules that prohibit awarding academic scholarships for athletic purposes.

[Baseball Hog]

The only problem is that the scenario you just described violates NCAA rules that prohibit awarding academic scholarships for athletic purposes.

Then they are violating NCAA rules.  I don't know what you want me to say.  It happens, that much I know without a doubt.

[lowandaway]

Then they are violating NCAA rules.  I don't know what you want me to say.  It happens, that much I know without a doubt.

Wow.  Unbelievable.  I'd like to know what other "facts" you think you know.

[Break & Run]

Wow.  Unbelievable.  I'd like to know what other "facts" you think you know.

He's an MLB scout.  Or a scout's scout.  Somethin' like that. LOL

[Baseball Hog]

Wow.  Unbelievable.  I'd like to know what other "facts" you think you know.

Think what you want.  There's a kid in next years class coming from across the country with a 2.8 high school GPA.  Oh, yeah he's a top 500 baseball player.  Why is he going to Vandy?  Is it because he's a huge Commie fan?  Doubtful.  Is it because he's always planned on attending a great academic school?  Yeah, you can tell he's a real book worm.  Or maybe, it's because Vandy can offer him something that few others can.

[lowandaway]

Think what you want.  There's a kid in next years class coming from across the country with a 2.8 high school GPA.  Oh, yeah he's a top 500 baseball player.  Why is he going to Vandy?  Is it because he's a huge Commie fan?  Doubtful.  Is it because he's always planned on attending a great academic school?  Yeah, you can tell he's a real book worm.  Or maybe, it's because Vandy can offer him something that few others can.

Yeah, a chance to win a National Championship.

[OnTheHillHogFan]

Yeah, a chance to win a National Championship.

No a full ride on academic scholarships while he would have to pay to go to any other school

[Baseball Hog]

Yeah, a chance to win a National Championship.

You can be so arrogant as to think that it doesn't happen, but that doesn't change anything.

You've never wondered why Vandy can keep top draft picks when no one else can?

[ucahogfan]

You've never wondered why Vandy can keep top draft picks when no one else can?

You can add Stanford into the mix of keeping top draft picks as well.

[Baseball Hog]

You can add Stanford into the mix of keeping top draft picks as well.

Yep, same situation there.

[ricepig]

Yeah, a chance to win a National Championship.

Well, he probably should have gone to LSU or Virginia, they show up a lot more often in Omaha.

[lowandaway]

No a full ride on academic scholarships while he would have to pay to go to any other school

So, what you're saying is that every kid, regardless of family income, can get a full ride with a combination of baseball money and an "academic scholarship"?

[Baseball Hog]

So, what you're saying is that every kid, regardless of family income, can get a full ride with a combination of baseball money and an "academic scholarship"?

I'm saying that 90% of Vandy players and all of the impact guys aren't paying a dime of tuition because of a combination of athletic and academic scholarships.  And guys that don't deserve academic scholarships are getting them because they are good at baseball.

[lowandaway]

I'm saying that 90% of Vandy players and all of the impact guys aren't paying a dime of tuition because of a combination of athletic and academic scholarships.  And guys that don't deserve academic scholarships are getting them because they are good at baseball.

Well, I'm sorry, but you're wrong about academic scholarships.  I agree that many of the players pay a small percentage of tuition, but the only money they can get from the university on top of a baseball scholarship is based only on family income, nothing else.  Imagine a private university trying to recruit players just with 11.7 scholarships.  A kid with a 50% scholarship would still owe about $30,000.  There's no way they could recruit any but the most well off kids if that were the situation. 

But, Vanderbilt offers need-based scholarships to every student whether they are an athlete or not.  You imply that athletes are given an advantage above all the other students.  That would be a gross NCAA violation.  Vandy has a huge endowment which allows them to offer this.  Most universities do not.

[OnTheHillHogFan]

Well, I'm sorry, but you're wrong about academic scholarships.  I agree that many of the players pay a small percentage of tuition, but the only money they can get from the university on top of a baseball scholarship is based only on family income, nothing else.  Imagine a private university trying to recruit players just with 11.7 scholarships.  A kid with a 50% scholarship would still owe about $30,000.  There's no way they could recruit any but the most well off kids if that were the situation. 

But, Vanderbilt offers need-based scholarships to every student whether they are an athlete or not.  You imply that athletes are given an advantage above all the other students.  That would be a gross NCAA violation.  Vandy has a huge endowment which allows them to offer this.  Most universities do not.

They are a private university so they can give academic scholarships to pretty much anyone they want to. Thats how they keep guys like Beede who was a first round draft pick out of HS.

[TuckFexas]

You two Vandy guys are essentially telling me the sky isn't blue because it's an overcast day. I don't blame Corbin for working the system he's allowed to work within at all. You can't say everything is on equal footing with the rest of the conference in regards to baseball recruiting though.

[lowandaway]

They are a private university so they can give academic scholarships to pretty much anyone they want to. Thats how they keep guys like Beede who was a first round draft pick out of HS.

I challenge you to prove that.  And if you do, America would also like your final word on the Kennedy assassination and that so called "moon landing".

[jry04]

Well, I'm sorry, but you're wrong about academic scholarships.  I agree that many of the players pay a small percentage of tuition, but the only money they can get from the university on top of a baseball scholarship is based only on family income, nothing else.  Imagine a private university trying to recruit players just with 11.7 scholarships.  A kid with a 50% scholarship would still owe about $30,000.  There's no way they could recruit any but the most well off kids if that were the situation. 

But, Vanderbilt offers need-based scholarships to every student whether they are an athlete or not.  You imply that athletes are given an advantage above all the other students.  That would be a gross NCAA violation.  Vandy has a huge endowment which allows them to offer this.  Most universities do not.

You are correct it is needs based, but it is still additional funding that other programs cannot offer. Vanderbilt tuition is more than most SEC schools, so for some players they are still left in debt, but you are kidding yourself if you don't think most of those draft picks don't show up as "needing it."

[jry04]

I challenge you to prove that.  And if you do, America would also like your final word on the Kennedy assassination and that so called "moon landing".

People are just confusing academic scholarships with needs-based and merit-based financial aid. Regardless, Vanderbilt is able to offer additional funding that other schools cannot.