USA vs. Germany GAME THREAD

[JayBell]

I looked up the stats and saw that Altidore did start 19 of the 38 Premier League games for Sunderland.  I must assume that most of those starts came in the first half of the campaign because I didn't see much of him later in the season when they were making their recovery to stay up.  I only followed them because I like Poyet and was hoping they would avoid the drop.

Altidore struggled, mightily, but so did every other attacker for Sunderland until the final five games of the season.  ALL of the blame was heaped on Jozy, yet the games of the pre-World Cup series, he had more touches in those games than he did in any match for Sunderland in the entire season.

After reading the article, I tend to agree more with Klinsmann's thoughts than the players' responses.  I think the American players must have the desire to fight for their place at a top club.  Now with the MLS apparently paying a good wage in comparison, they know they can be a star here and not have to fight to keep their place.  It will take American players fighting through the perceived bias to get rid of it.  Other than the goalies, there hasn't been enough success for clubs to choose the American over an Argentine or African.  Until enough US players fight the man and prove them wrong, it will always exist and with the wages of MLS increasing they may never have the need to fight that perceived bias.

And how long are they supposed to fight through that bias for you to feel comfortable enough to admit American players do not get the respect they deserve?  Let's just take Clint Dempsey, since he is the best example.

It became a running joke that every single new manager Fulham hired would come in, sit Dempsey at the beginning, take about two months to realize Dempsey's talent and he would become the team's best attacker over the final three-fourths of the season...for a mid-table EPL club for four straight seasons.

At one point the only people who were scoring more than Dempsey were Wayne Rooney and Fernando Torres.  That's it, in the best league in the world.

Then, when Dempsey did what so many other players did and wanted a chance to compete at a higher level, the Liverpool manager WANTED Dempsey.  It was the dumbass front office that dropped the ball and allowed him to go to Tottenham.

With Spurs, Dempsey was not played in a goal scoring position.  It wasn't his role, but that didn't matter.  The fans and media focused on his lack of goals.  Still, a manager for a top 5 team in the EPL played Dempsey literally every single game he was healthy.  At the end of the season, the organization decided they didn't want Dempsey any more.  Um, what?

Dempsey spent six years in Europe overcoming a bias and continuously getting slapped back down.  If that guy can't crack through the glass ceiling, it's going to take someone with Messi or Ronaldo-esque talent to be able to do it.

[JayBell]

And Horsesrus, I know you admitted your bias, so please don't think I was "blasting" you because of your opinion.  It's just something that I have been involved with a lot of the past eight years.

[Horsesrus]

I mean, I don't know how to respond when you admit you have a bias.  Is it really that difficult to put the channel on ESPN on a random Thursday or Sunday when there's no football on.

It is this willful ignorance that damages MLS.  There are a lot of sports fans who don't just know much about soccer or MLS, but how can any soccer fan rationalize intentionally ignoring our own domestic league which your support could help improve?

Then you haven't been paying attention.  Hogsooey provided several great examples and you could really go on and on about it.  The best American soccer players ever always faced a bias in Europe.  If Dempsey wasn't American, he would have been playing for someone like Arsenal or Atletico Madrid back in 2009 after he had an outstanding Confederations Cup.

But why?  It is because of your perceived perception that those leagues provide more competitive opportunities.  We have this belief that going to a better league magically makes a player better without taking into account that those leagues are perceived as better mainly because they spend more money.

Keeping up with my honesty here and running roughshod over being politically correct, I don't care if the MLS improves or succeeds.  I have no sense of support for American soccer as I wouldn't consider myself a fan of American soccer.

I pay attention to the very elite levels of soccer and thus far Americans haven't fought through to reach those levels.  Call it a bias if you want but until someone or several decide to fight through the bias, it will be a convenient excuse to use for Americans not playing at the highest level unless MLS at some point finds the $$$ to attract the highest level of players from around the world at which point I would follow the MLS.

I also tend to believe that talent usually follows the money.  You and I could both predict pretty accurately which teams will be in the top 4 in the major European leagues.  They also tend to be the teams that spend the most money bringing in players.  If the US makes a run in the World Cup to the semis or shock of all shocks the final and players stand out I would think a few of those standout players might get the opportunity if they choose to pursue it. 

It should also be noted that in college football, I concentrate my viewing on the SEC.  In pro football I follow the NFL and not CFL or Arena league.  In baseball I follow MLB and not minor leagues.  I guess I'm saying one can be a fan of soccer and not of American soccer.  Obviously doesn't make me a member of Sam's army, but I wouldn't mind if the MLS becomes successful but I won't be an early follower in that quest.

[JayBell]

This is why I find it difficult to join in the criticism of Wynalda.  I know he's not the greatest commentator, but he was the 1st to play overseas and broke that barrier.  He was truly the first American born-and-raised, whom Europe saw as a legit footballer.

Then he backed it up even more by scoring on a free kick in World Cup USA '94, bending the ball up and over the wall to tie Switzerland, starting our journey out of our group, and to the showdown with eventual champion Brazil.

He then unselfishly signed with the MLS(as did several of our guys to help boost it), and scored the leagues' 1st goal ever.

I know that all has nothing to do with his sports' announcer skills, but he earned my respect by paving the way for so many other of our guys.

Wynalda has generally been a good commentator, but the dynamic between him and Gus Johnson got notably worse in some recent games.

Wynalda has hurt himself in the US Soccer community, which is still a relatively guarded and tight-knit group, by running his mouth too often with some crazy ass opinions.  Still, the guy knows soccer.  If he would learn from Joey Saputo and play nice with MLS, I think he'd be one of the top coaches in the league.

And Wynalda is another example of American bias.  He was one of the best American players ever before the Donovan and Dempsey generation, and the best foreign clubs he played for were FC Saarbrücken and VfL Bochum.  Tab Ramos played for Figueres, Real Betis and Tigres before returning to MLS.  Do those sound like the clubs of players who should have been capable of beating Colombia in 1994 and pushing Brazil to the brink in the next round?  That team, with Cobi Jones, also demolished Argentina, handily, the next year 3-0 in the Copa America.

[JayBell]

I found some of Beckham's comments interesting, he didn't seem to think the talent was that much better in Europe.  And that's kind of a generalization, anyway.  Sure the Premiership's talent from it's top teams is higher, Spain's league, maybe even Italy - but you're going to tell me it's a given that the Netherlands' or all of the Italian league's teams are better than MLS, or the Argentine or Brazilian league?

The top MLS teams could be competitive in any of those leagues, and some of the lower end teams of the Euro leagues would struggle in the MLS or even the Mexican league.

Here's an outline of what I'll discuss about this:

1) Parity in MLS doesn't exist elsewhere.

2) It is hard to compare MLS to other leagues because of that lack of parity.

3) Other countries don't face the same physical conditions MLS does.

[Horsesrus]

And Horsesrus, I know you admitted your bias, so please don't think I was "blasting" you because of your opinion.  It's just something that I have been involved with a lot of the past eight years.

I didn't feel blasted.  Just stated what I think despite it not being a popular thing to say to American soccer fans.  You obviously feel strongly about it and I understand that it must be frustrating.  I guess the best hope is for MLS to continue to get stronger and the US to frequently make trips to the quarters and semis in World Cups.  If fan support ever did take off and some decent tv money came into the league, maybe the MLS could start poaching some more young global talent that the English, Spanish, German and Italian leagues are also seeking. I just can't imagine that happening at this point but I am an admitted pessimist.

When I was young my family did have season tickets to the St Louis Stars in the NASL so at one point in my youth I supported American soccer but as you probably know that league wasn't long for this world.  My nephew lives in KC and he is a rabid Sporting fan and constantly tries to get me to visit the Cauldron. I plan to take him up on the offer at some point.

[cbhawg03]

And yet, more than half of the MLS players in the World Cup just advanced to the knockout rounds.  If Honduras wasn't so damn horrible, that ratio would be even higher up.  MLS had a stronger presence than most leagues in the world and the US had a larger MLS contingent than it had in the past three World Cups.

You see how underrated MLS players are when Beckerman, at age 32, is shocking the world.  Even English media have raved about Beckerman, and they struggle giving Americans credit for anything in soccer.

Then you have Dempsey, who obviously has not been hurt by returning to MLS; we know definitively that Zusi and Besler had opportunities in the EPL (Javier Morales was wanted by teams in La Liga) but they chose to stay in MLS; Yedlin has been the impact sub the last two weeks, he is the second American academy product to play in the World Cup (Andy Najar started for Honduras); Omar Gonzalez had to be signed to a Designated Player contract to be kept in LA because he was a lock to be signed by someone in the EPL.

Giancarlo Gonzalez, of Costa Rica, is considered by many to be one of the standout defensive players in this World Cup.  He plays for the Columbus Crew and his national team just ousted the likes of Andrea Pirlo and Wayne Rooney.  Brazilian starting goalkeeper Julio Cesar desperately wants NOT to have to go back to Queens Park Rangers because he loved playing for Toronto FC so much.

I could go on and on but real evidence doesn't seem to do the trick.  For some reason, with both Americans and the international soccer community, there is a willful ignorance and a structural bias to discount MLS and its players, especially US players.

MLS = T-ball baseball

Champions League, EPL and a couple others = Majors

It is just a different feeling all together, it is better quality.

You know those two moments that allowed Portugal's goals, that is everyday crap in the MLS. It gets old seeing botched play continuously. Yes there are some good guys in MLS, but they are few in number.

[cbhawg03]

I could go on and on but real evidence doesn't seem to do the trick.  For some reason, with both Americans and the international soccer community, there is a willful ignorance and a structural bias to discount MLS and its players, especially US players.

You are talking about a select few individuals. Yes, I know that there is a select few individuals in the other leagues as well, but the overall quality does not drop 100% in those leagues in comparison to the MLS. Quality is the difference.

I have watched a few minutes, no more than 5 minutes and I have to turn the channel on a MLS game. You see so many little mistakes and a lack of passing, just simple passes, that it will drive you to turn the channel. Many teams rush forward and that is it, then it is a rush to the other end and thats it. Majority of the teams cannot keep possession for more than 20 seconds, keep the ball, build and see what happens or close the game out by keeping possession.

[Horsesrus]

Wynalda has generally been a good commentator, but the dynamic between him and Gus Johnson got notably worse in some recent games.

Wynalda has hurt himself in the US Soccer community, which is still a relatively guarded and tight-knit group, by running his mouth too often with some crazy ass opinions.  Still, the guy knows soccer.  If he would learn from Joey Saputo and play nice with MLS, I think he'd be one of the top coaches in the league.

And Wynalda is another example of American bias.  He was one of the best American players ever before the Donovan and Dempsey generation, and the best foreign clubs he played for were FC Saarbrücken and VfL Bochum.  Tab Ramos played for Figueres, Real Betis and Tigres before returning to MLS.  Do those sound like the clubs of players who should have been capable of beating Colombia in 1994 and pushing Brazil to the brink in the next round?  That team, with Cobi Jones, also demolished Argentina, handily, the next year 3-0 in the Copa America.

And while I'm putting everything out there before I depart from this forum that I wasn't even familiar with (Notshavin hooked me in MMQB), I think Gus Johnson is awful announcing soccer.  I'm not his biggest fan for basketball or football either and I know most people love him.  I have enjoyed most of the ESPN announcers throughout the World Cup with Derek Rae and Ian Darke being two of my favorites.  As studio analysts go I love Roberto Martinez, so much in fact that I became a fan of Wigan and now Everton just because of him.

[JayBell]

1)  I hate the generalization of "Europe" or the "top American leagues."  European soccer has been so warped by Champions League money.  The EPL and the Bundesliga are about as close as you can get in Europe to the parity that is seen in MLS and even the Mexican league.  But you're lumping Manchester City in with Cardiff in that generalization.

Manchester City and Cardiff City are about as close, in terms of talent, as the Miami Heat and Mike Anderson's Arkansas team.

If you're not playing for Real Madrid, Barcelona or Atletico Madrid, explain to me the benefits of playing in La Liga.  For the other 17 teams in that league, they're just paid better, but they also have higher taxes, and they play those top teams about 6-8 times per year.  MLS averages better attendance than those other 17 teams.

2)  It is that disparity that makes it difficult to compare MLS - and even Liga MX, Brasileiro Série A and Argentina Primera División - to leagues in Europe.  That gap between Manchester City and Cardiff City is massive.  The gap becomes bigger and bigger as the quality of European leagues goes down.

Benfica, Sporting Lisbon and Porto are three outstanding clubs in Portugal.  In support of Freddy Adu back in the day, thousands of American soccer fans found streams online to watch Adu play for Belenenses in the top Portugal league.  It was hot garbage.  There were less than a thousand people in the stands and the quality of play was comparable to non-ACC college soccer.

Yet Belenenses gets lumped in with "European soccer" with Benfica and Porto.  Those same chasms in quality are also noticeable in Greece, Turkey and the Ukraine.  As Herculez Gomez, you only get the glitz and glamor if you're at the top clubs.  Outside of that, you're just toiling away in obscurity and MLS offers such a better place for players to develop.

3)  What is the longest flight in England for a club, like an hour?  MLS players face more travel and play in the hottest conditions than any other top league in the world.  MLS has to do that because playing in Chicago, Columbus or Foxborough December through February is impossible.  That leaves matches to be played in LA, Dallas and Houston in May through September.

Most players on Real Madrid have never faced those conditions.....ever.

I'm as big a cheerleader of US Soccer and MLS as anyone, but I can admit that it'd be tough for the best MLS teams to compete in the EPL, Bundesliga, La Liga, Serie A and Ligue 1.  The main reason would be because of depth.  The best players in MLS are capable of playing anywhere in the world, it's just that it's started to trend that MLS players are turning down those offers.  I think they'd be above relegation, but you're talking about the best leagues in the world.

Outside of that, any good MLS team is going to be right up there behind the Benficas, Galatasarays and Olympiakos teams in every league.  And it's just mind boggling that so many soccer snobs still think it's better to go play for Estoril and lose to the top three teams six times a year than play a fast-paced, entertaining brand of soccer in one of the best attended soccer leagues in the world in MLS.

[JayBell]

MLS = T-ball baseball

Champions League, EPL and a couple others = Majors

It is just a different feeling all together, it is better quality.

You know those two moments that allowed Portugal's goals, that is everyday crap in the MLS. It gets old seeing botched play continuously. Yes there are some good guys in MLS, but they are few in number.

Like I said, facts won't matter to the soccer snobs in America.

Those two moments against Portugal were allowed by Geoff Cameron, of Stoke City in the EPL, and Fabian Johnson, of Gladbach in the Bundesliga.  Most of the best players on the team have been Beckerman, Dempsey, Besler and Gonzalez who all play in MLS.

You are talking about a select few individuals. Yes, I know that there is a select few individuals in the other leagues as well, but the overall quality does not drop 100% in those leagues in comparison to the MLS. Quality is the difference.

I have watched a few minutes, no more than 5 minutes and I have to turn the channel on a MLS game. You see so many little mistakes and a lack of passing, just simple passes, that it will drive you to turn the channel. Many teams rush forward and that is it, then it is a rush to the other end and thats it. Majority of the teams cannot keep possession for more than 20 seconds, keep the ball, build and see what happens or close the game out by keeping possession.

This is such an elementary and ignorant approach.  Do you turn the channel after five minutes of a match between Sunderland and Stoke City?  Do you even watch five minutes of Sunderland and Stoke City?  I guarantee you most matches give you a better quality and certainly more entertainment than a match between those two clubs.  Yet they're supposedly SO much better because they pay their players more.

[JayBell]

I didn't feel blasted.  Just stated what I think despite it not being a popular thing to say to American soccer fans.  You obviously feel strongly about it and I understand that it must be frustrating.  I guess the best hope is for MLS to continue to get stronger and the US to frequently make trips to the quarters and semis in World Cups.  If fan support ever did take off and some decent tv money came into the league, maybe the MLS could start poaching some more young global talent that the English, Spanish, German and Italian leagues are also seeking. I just can't imagine that happening at this point but I am an admitted pessimist.

I can understand that.

When I was young my family did have season tickets to the St Louis Stars in the NASL so at one point in my youth I supported American soccer but as you probably know that league wasn't long for this world.  My nephew lives in KC and he is a rabid Sporting fan and constantly tries to get me to visit the Cauldron. I plan to take him up on the offer at some point.

I tell everyone I know that they need to watch a match in Kansas City.  Dallas and even Houston are a lot closer for a lot of Arkansans, but Sporting Kansas City is the best advertisement for what MLS has become.  Houston can be to, but SKC is one of the best 2-3 representatives of the league.

Games in Seattle, Portland, Vancouver, LA, RSL, New York and Toronto are comparable with anywhere in the world.  A lot of times I wished I was able to cover soccer in one of our top markets because it has seen such a boom in the last five years.

[Horsesrus]

Keep up the fight JayBell.  Maybe my nephew should invite you to the Cauldron providing you're a fan of SKC.  He just turned 30 and I will assume you are that age or younger since that seems to be the demographic of American soccer fans which bodes well in your quest for respect from us old set in our ways snobs.  +1 to you.

[cbhawg03]

Like I said, facts won't matter to the soccer snobs in America.

Those two moments against Portugal were allowed by Geoff Cameron, of Stoke City in the EPL, and Fabian Johnson, of Gladbach in the Bundesliga.  Most of the best players on the team have been Beckerman, Dempsey, Besler and Gonzalez who all play in MLS.

This is such an elementary and ignorant approach.  Do you turn the channel after five minutes of a match between Sunderland and Stoke City?  Do you even watch five minutes of Sunderland and Stoke City?  I guarantee you most matches give you a better quality and certainly more entertainment than a match between those two clubs.  Yet they're supposedly SO much better because they pay their players more.

How do you really feel about it? lol

Yes I turn it if Sunderland and Stoke City are playing, but my point is that you get better overall talent on a greater number of teams than the MLS. You have more Sunderland and Stoke City in the MLS

[Cresthog]

How do you really feel about it? lol

Yes I turn it if Sunderland and Stoke City are playing, but my point is that you get better overall talent on a greater number of teams than the MLS. You have more Sunderland and Stoke City in the MLS

guys I'm as guilty as anyone but let's not turn this into a D measuring contest.

We've avoided it to this point..

[cbhawg03]

JayBell

I don't disagree with you about the bias towards the American players, just think that overall there is much better quality soccer elsewhere. If the guys want to play in the MLS, that is perfectly fine with me. Personally, I would rather play in the EPL and Champions League, but you can't guarantee a spot in the Champions League, i.e. ManU.

MLS is headed in the right direction, but years away before I will be watching consistently. It is a start by getting the biggest US players here, if they are not going to play elsewhere, and by getting some other top talent that is aging, such as Henry and others and now Villa. Need to find a way to get some of the top talent that are not on the downside of their career to make things more interesting.

[JayBell]

Keep up the fight JayBell.  Maybe my nephew should invite you to the Cauldron providing you're a fan of SKC.  He just turned 30 and I will assume you are that age or younger since that seems to be the demographic of American soccer fans which bodes well in your quest for respect from us old set in our ways snobs.  +1 to you.

Thanks.  I don't see me going to the Cauldron any time soon since I'm still a journalist.  I've covered a few matches in Kansas City.  I haven't been to every soccer stadium in MLS, personally, but SKC had by far the best atmosphere of the stadiums I have been to.

[JayBell]

MLS is headed in the right direction, but years away before I will be watching consistently. It is a start by getting the biggest US players here, if they are not going to play elsewhere, and by getting some other top talent that is aging, such as Henry and others and now Villa. Need to find a way to get some of the top talent that are not on the downside of their career to make things more interesting.

Dude, I understand and can't blame you for feeling that way.  What bugs me is making up reasons or spouting off stereotypes from 2004 of why not to watch MLS.

If you don't watch Sunderland vs. Stoke City and you don't watch more than five minutes of MLS, how can you possibly compare the two?  If you watch two innings of the Chicago Cubs vs. the Mets, are you getting an accurate depiction of Major League Baseball?  All I ever ask of anyone is to watch a few games, pick a team and try to attend a match.

If you don't want to, that's your prerogative, but don't act like you have any kind of understanding of the league or knowledge of what the play is actually like on the field if you never watch it.

[DukeOfPork]

Fun fact about the US/Germany game:

"...Before the game, I noted on the liveblog that the combined score of teams who had played their previous games in Manaus was 10-3 against..."

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/jun/27/world-cup-2014-usa-germany-analysis

The USMNT performance against Germany really was worthy of praise.  They could have easily folded after having played in Manaus.

[HogFansReunited]

Fun fact about the US/Germany game:

"...Before the game, I noted on the liveblog that the combined score of teams who had played their previous games in Manaus was 10-3 against..."

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/jun/27/world-cup-2014-usa-germany-analysis

The USMNT performance against Germany really was worthy of praise.  They could have easily folded after having played in Manaus.

Good information.  We played a better team after having less rest and coming from a much more difficult location to play in and still held our own.

[JayBell]

The US and especially Portugal really reversed the trend for teams that had played in Manaus.  That stadium and those conditions were wrecking teams.  It was a big factor that I think a lot of people were glossing over for the Germany match.  It's one of the biggest reasons I was so pessimistic about it.

I think the key factor in the group ended up being Ghana's dissension in the locker room.  With the $3 million payment issue and the suspensions the morning of the match, I don't think they were prepared for the Portugal match.

If Ghana played the same way against Portugal that they did against Germany and the US, I think Ghana wins that game.  Instead, they let Ronaldo take control of it late and knock them out even when Portugal basically had nothing to play for.

[cbhawg03]

The US and especially Portugal really reversed the trend for teams that had played in Manaus.  That stadium and those conditions were wrecking teams.  It was a big factor that I think a lot of people were glossing over for the Germany match.  It's one of the biggest reasons I was so pessimistic about it.

I think the key factor in the group ended up being Ghana's dissension in the locker room.  With the $3 million payment issue and the suspensions the morning of the match, I don't think they were prepared for the Portugal match.

If Ghana played the same way against Portugal that they did against Germany and the US, I think Ghana wins that game.  Instead, they let Ronaldo take control of it late and knock them out even when Portugal basically had nothing to play for.

That match was fixed man. You couldn't do what the Ghana keeper did again if you tried a million times, literally just put the ball on a platter for Cristano.

It wasn't about the money either according to Ghana players yet some posted pictures on twitter kissing their money lol

[dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya]

Wynalda has generally been a good commentator, but the dynamic between him and Gus Johnson got notably worse in some recent games.

Wynalda has hurt himself in the US Soccer community, which is still a relatively guarded and tight-knit group, by running his mouth too often with some crazy ass opinions.  Still, the guy knows soccer.  If he would learn from Joey Saputo and play nice with MLS, I think he'd be one of the top coaches in the league.

And Wynalda is another example of American bias.  He was one of the best American players ever before the Donovan and Dempsey generation, and the best foreign clubs he played for were FC Saarbrücken and VfL Bochum.  Tab Ramos played for Figueres, Real Betis and Tigres before returning to MLS.  Do those sound like the clubs of players who should have been capable of beating Colombia in 1994 and pushing Brazil to the brink in the next round?  That team, with Cobi Jones, also demolished Argentina, handily, the next year 3-0 in the Copa America.

I know, that's crazy.

Balboa was another great player that should have been playing in the Premiership, or on a top team somewhere.  World class center back, IMO.

[dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya]

On a side note, Roy Lassiter had a nice career in Costa Rica - I was able to go see him play a couple of times when I lived there.