USA vs. Germany GAME THREAD

[Cresthog]

I agree on Yedlin. He deserves at least a half against Belgium.

Maybe play it safe with Bedoya and Zusi but plan to bring him on later on.

Zusi just looks gassed and if he's not delivering solid crosses/set pieces, he's really not worth a spot out there IMO. We look really static at times and if those guys aren't playing great defense, don't really see a point of having them out there.

[Jackrabbit Hog]

Btw, I highly suggest watching Brazil play.  They are starting to click and the style they play is truly a thing of beauty.

You mean, sort of like the Spurs?

[JayBell]

great analysis Jay.  Tell me, what were your thoughts on today's game?  I honestly felt like towards the end of the game when we "knew" we were going to advance we started playing a little more free and creating some chances on goal.

I agree, but I think part of that was due to tired legs.  I think they got some adrenaline pumping late in the game with Yedlin's energy.

I personally like Gonzalez over Cameron in the back.  His height really helps us on corners/crosses and his length allows him to make some tackles I don't think Cameron can (two stuck out to me from the first half).

I think they're pretty equal on ability, but Gonzalez has had a very shaky first half of 2014.  It's why I said before the World Cup camp that I thought Gonzalez was a decent bet to start.  He's shaky at times, but he can also be a standout performer, especially when flanked by other top defenders.  Gonzalez may have earned a start against Belgium, but he could still have that one monumental screw up that proves costly.

If Klinsmann really wanted to screw with Belgium and come out swinging, he could always go with Gonzalez at CB and Cameron at right back, with Fabian moving into the midfield.

I have really enjoyed seeing Yedlin on the wing.  Now he is a bit raw and idk if he's fit to play a full 90' but I think he creates more scoring opp's than Zusi.  And his speed gives other teams D's some problems, esp on the counter.

I'm really surprised by Yedlin's attacking impetus because we don't really see that from him in MLS.  I've been backing him for the World Cup since I saw his defensive performances in MLS in March.  He's showed well.

In all honesty though, he's playing a role that was Brek Shea's.  Shea had every chance to make the World Cup roster.  He just needed consistent club minutes and screwed that up a few months ago.

Our D/defensive midfielders really have to tighten up.  We were really having trouble marking and communicating when the Germans were sending midfielders to make runs through our D.  I thought it was gonna cost us early.  We started to figure it out a bit and looked better as the game went on but they were still running free through our D at times.

I would have to rewatch it again to comment on this.  We do know that Michael Bradley has covered more ground than any other player in the World Cup.  Kyle Beckerman ranks very highly as well.

[dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya]

Tuesday afternoon against Belgium.  The US gets a really, really green squad to take on in the knockout rounds.  But so was Ghana four years ago...

Wait a second though.  Isn't there a scenario where Russia could win the group?

[JayBell]

Wait a second though.  Isn't there a scenario where Russia could win the group?

No, Russia only has 1 point.  Algeria has 4.  Algeria could win the group on the goal differential.  This is where Group H is:

Team/Pts/GD
Belgium/6/2
Algeria/3/1
Russia/1/-1
South Korea/1/-2

[dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya]

You mean, sort of like the Spurs?

More like The Lakers of the 80s or Bulls of the 90s - just because they are exciting and fun to watch, and make the other team look silly.

The Spurs are fundamentally sound and play a great team game.

Neymar is a 22-year old Jordan, and Oscar is like Magic Johnson.

[Huckleberry Pig]

I would have to rewatch it again to comment on this.  We do know that Michael Bradley has covered more ground than any other player in the World Cup.  Kyle Beckerman ranks very highly as well.

Our back four and our defensive midfielders really had trouble tracking their midfield on runs.  They liked to work the ball outside then send a midfielder to make a through run and we really had trouble picking those guys up, esp at the beginning of the game.

And understandable, but I felt like several times today Bradley would make a pretty brisk paced run to pressure a defender that easily had options to rid the ball to.  Almost felt like a wasted run and Bradley ended up being out of position (if only for a short time).  I know as a former forward there were times I thought it was worth pressuring at a good pace and other times you just say "hey, he's got 3 guys to pass it to, it's not worth wasting a good sprint here just to see him move it along". 

Perhaps I'm being too critical of Bradley, but what's the old spiderman saying "with great power comes great responsibility".  I hold him to a higher standard than most of the team because I think he has shown he is a better player than most of the team.  JMO.

And I will say, I thought he looked much more energetic/creative in today's game.  He had some very solid defensive plays as well.  And in no way am I implying to sub him out, not a chance!  I have just set a higher standard for him and for me he hasn't yet played to that standard. 

[dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya]

No, Russia only has 1 point.  Algeria has 4.  Algeria could win the group on the goal differential.  This is where Group H is:

Team/Pts/GD
Belgium/6/2
Algeria/3/1
Russia/1/-1
South Korea/1/-2

Is this a typo on yahoo then?

Team    P    GD    Pts
Belgium    3    2    7
Russia    3    0    4
Algeria    3    0    3
South Korea 3    -2    2

[jbell96]

Table on ESPN has this

Belgium 6 (2)
Algeria 3 (1)
Russia 1 (-1)
South Korea 1 (-2)

[Cresthog]

More like The Lakers of the 80s or Bulls of the 90s - just because they are exciting and fun to watch, and make the other team look silly.

The Spurs are fundamentally sound and play a great team game.

Neymar is a 22-year old Jordan, and Oscar is like Magic Johnson.

I'ts really odd that Diego Costa chose Spain. He'd be a shoe in as their out and out striker and it was in the run up to a Brazilian world cup.

I bet he's severely regretting that decisions.

[JayBell]

Is this a typo on yahoo then?

Team    P    GD    Pts
Belgium    3    2    7
Russia    3    0    4
Algeria    3    0    3
South Korea 3    -2    2

That's what the standings would be if the current results hold.  You can't have 7 points from two games.

[Jackrabbit Hog]

Neymar is a 22-year old Jordan, and Oscar is like Magic Johnson.

That's interesting, because I've always considered that Magic Johnson is like Oscar.


Robertson, that is.

[dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya]

Our back four and our defensive midfielders really had trouble tracking their midfield on runs.  They liked to work the ball outside then send a midfielder to make a through run and we really had trouble picking those guys up, esp at the beginning of the game.

And understandable, but I felt like several times today Bradley would make a pretty brisk paced run to pressure a defender that easily had options to rid the ball to.  Almost felt like a wasted run and Bradley ended up being out of position (if only for a short time).  I know as a former forward there were times I thought it was worth pressuring at a good pace and other times you just say "hey, he's got 3 guys to pass it to, it's not worth wasting a good sprint here just to see him move it along". 

Perhaps I'm being too critical of Bradley, but what's the old spiderman saying "with great power comes great responsibility".  I hold him to a higher standard than most of the team because I think he has shown he is a better player than most of the team.  JMO.

And I will say, I thought he looked much more energetic/creative in today's game.  He had some very solid defensive plays as well.  And in no way am I implying to sub him out, not a chance!  I have just set a higher standard for him and for me he hasn't yet played to that standard. 

I agree with this.  From what I've heard from him and read about him, no one is harder on Bradley than he is.  I remember reading they have some kind of fitness/skills competition during training camp that Donovan usually wins, but this year Bradley won it.

I watched him a lot today, he was all over the field, even running up and pressing the last defender and goalkeeper.  He made a couple of his trademark through balls - one of them was to Jones.  That's an example of why I think he hasn't been himself.  Again, our D is not getting him the ball when they win it and he's having to deliver it to other midfielders, instead of Dempsey, Wondo or Johannsson(or obviously Altidore).  But he's got to figure out how to impact the game, both of those "reasons" are out of his control.  He's gotta go make it happen, get out of that funk and that may open up things more.

[Hogsooey]

More like The Lakers of the 80s or Bulls of the 90s - just because they are exciting and fun to watch, and make the other team look silly.

The Spurs are fundamentally sound and play a great team game.

Neymar is a 22-year old Jordan, and Oscar is like Magic Johnson.

I picked Brazil to win it all, but I haven't been impressed... yet. They showed out against Cameroon, but let's face it, Cameroon is just awful. Actually, that is being generous.

[dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya]

That's what the standings would be if the current results hold.  You can't have 7 points from two games.

Duh - right.  Thanks.

[Cresthog]

Defour gets red carded for Belgium.

[dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya]

Man, I'm just glad we get another game and week to enjoy/talk about U.S. Soccer.

After all the waiting, it's already been worth it.  From the Ghana Dempsey goal, Altidore injury to the Johnny Futbol winner, to the exhilaration and last second heartbreak of the Portugal game, to today doing what we needed to to live another day.

No greater tournament on the planet.

[DukeOfPork]

We agree with you.  I just don't think it'd be a disappointment to not make the semifinals.  Everything after this is gravy.

I totally agree.  We've already achieved the primary goal, in my opinion.  Navigating our way out of Group G was a more than I expected this team to accomplish.

Anything beyond this is icing on the cake.  This has been a good showing already.  One more win and this will have been an "excellent" performance.

We're in the knockout stage, so there is no need to concern ourselves with other teams, point totals, and goal differentials.  Just go for it and see what happens.

[DukeOfPork]

I picked Brazil to win it all, but I haven't been impressed... yet. They showed out against Cameroon, but let's face it, Cameroon is just awful. Actually, that is being generous.

I still say Brazil.  Playing on home soil is a larger determining factor for winning in the World Cup than in almost any other sport or competition.

[Hogsooey]

I still say Brazil.  Playing on home soil is a larger determining factor for winning in the World Cup than in almost any other sport or competition.

I agree.  They are still my favorite to win it, because of the home field advantage.  Getting a Germany or France in the semis after they beat on one another is in their favor, too.

[cbhawg03]

2 goals away from getting Algeria instead of Belgium

1 from Algeria and 1 from Sout Korea is all that is needed right now, South Korea has a man advantage

[HogFansReunited]

I totally agree.  We've already achieved the primary goal, in my opinion.  Navigating our way out of Group G was a more than I expected this team to accomplish.

Anything beyond this is icing on the cake.  This has been a good showing already.  One more win and this will have been an "excellent" performance.

We're in the knockout stage, so there is no need to concern ourselves with other teams, point totals, and goal differentials.  Just go for it and see what happens.

This.  I said several times that I didn't see any way of us getting out of group this year.  Although I thought we could have done better, I am happy with the overall results and we are going further than I thought we would.

[cbhawg03]

I agree.  They are still my favorite to win it, because of the home field advantage.  Getting a Germany or France in the semis after they beat on one another is in their favor, too.

I don't think Germany will have any problems with France, 2-0 or 3-1 Germany should they face Brazil

[JayBell]

I don't think Germany will have any problems with France, 2-0 or 3-1 Germany should they face Brazil

If the top teams take care of business, the semifinals could be fandamntastic.  You'd have Brazil v. Germany and the Netherlands v. Argentina.  I wouldn't be disappointed one bit if the US was able to break into that group in place of Argentina.

I'm telling you guys, don't sleep on France.  They know how to put it together at the World Cup.  I think Germany's tactical masterclass against Portugal has swayed people's opinions about them.  They have some weaknesses.  France could put 2 or 3 goals past that defense.

[cbhawg03]

Well its going to be Belgium as South Korea just sucks.

Belgium could be down to 8 men and South Korea still couldn't score. By the way, Belgium's keeper is legit, 8 foot tall with 7 foot arms and legs, he covers the entire goal without even moving

[Cresthog]

If the top teams take care of business, the semifinals could be fandamntastic.  You'd have Brazil v. Germany and the Netherlands v. Argentina.  I wouldn't be disappointed one bit if the US was able to break into that group in place of Argentina.

I'm telling you guys, don't sleep on France.  They know how to put it together at the World Cup.  I think Germany's tactical masterclass against Portugal has swayed people's opinions about them.  They have some weaknesses.  France could put 2 or 3 goals past that defense.

I think Mexico gives The Oranje more problems than people think. I know Holland made it all the way in 2010, but they ALWAYS start hot in every tournement.

I'm really excited to watch that game.

[cbhawg03]

It is ridiculous that some of these teams get into the World Cup

South Korea
Cameroon
Honduras

[Cresthog]

I'm telling you guys, don't sleep on France.  They know how to put it together at the World Cup.  I think Germany's tactical masterclass against Portugal has swayed people's opinions about them.  They have some weaknesses.  France could put 2 or 3 goals past that defense.

I agree on France. Deschamps is the big difference with them. He's a genius.

They're doing all this without their best player too.

[cbhawg03]

If salary is an approximate indicator of talent and experience, consider this: the combined paycheck of the three highest-paid German national players is more than what the entire US squad earns.

Mesut Ozil, who made a total of $18 million in the last year to rank as the tenth highest paid World Cup player, collected $12.5 million in wages from his club Arsenal after they shelled out a record $65 million on transfer deadline day in September to pick the playmaker up from Real Madrid. National team captain Philipp Lahm and bench starter Bastian Schweinsteiger each took home $13 million from their club Bayern Munich.

In comparison, collectively the USMNT took home $26 million in salary and bonus from their clubs in the last twelve months.

Only seven on the 23-man USMNT roster make over $1 million in salary a year. Omar Gonzalez is the only other among these millionaires World Cup playersundefined on an MLS roster. The 25-year old defender out of the University of Maryland is guaranteed $1.25 million this season from the Los Angeles Galaxy.

Jozy Altidore makes the most playing out of country for Sunderland in the English Premier League. The forward made $3.2 million playing for the Black Cats last season. After straining his left hamstring in the U.S. opening 2-1 win against Ghana, the 25-year old failed to play Portugal on Sunday and has been ruled out of the match against Germany.

Ten players on the roster play at home in MLS. One among them is also the least paid on the entire World Cup squad. DeAndre Yedlin, a 20-year old defender and second youngest on the team, is guaranteed $92,000 from the Seattle Sounders this season.

The good news is that disparity in pay has yet to be reflective of a disparity in the U.S. team's effort compared to its competition.

Case in point is the squad's 2-2 draw with Portugal, ranked No. 4 in the world by FIFA and home of highest-paid soccer player and second highest-paid athlete in the world, Cristiano Ronaldo.

The Portuguese striker is reigning world player of the year, a two-time winner of the sport's top honor, and holder of dozens of club and country goal-scoring records. He is also good looking enough to be featured on the celebrity-/model-coveted cover of the Spanish edition of Vogue, in addition to Sports Illustrated, in the nude. With 88 million Facebook fans and 27.3 million Twitter followers, his social media following trumps all athletes in the world.

Ronaldo is handsomely paid in return. Of the $80 million the 29-year old raked in last year, $52 million was in the form of salary and bonus from his club, Real Madrid – more than double the combined salary of the entire 23-man U.S. roster.

[JayBell]

The international soccer market is a joke.  So much value is based simply on which country someone is from.

Bastian Schweinsteiger, who is about to be 30, is valued at like $50+ million.  Michael Bradley, who is about to be 27, is valued at $8 million.

I really do think a lingering, prevailing European bias is part of why guys like Clint Dempsey and Michael Bradley have decided to return to MLS.  Not only are they able to come back and get PAID now, but I think they're tired of fighting against a wave of anti-American bias in Europe.  I belief it was Jeff Carlisle who wrote a great story just earlier this year about the obstacles Americans still face in international soccer.

[JayBell]

And that's the debate I was having with some reporter on MLS a few nights ago.  The guy wanted to say that Zusi, Besler, Gonzalez and some others needed to leave MLS because they had reached their peak potential in the league, as if going to England or Germany just makes a player better.

His retort was that the best players tend to play in those leagues and England, Italy and France.  That happens because clubs in those league shave more money.  Playing in those leagues doesn't magically make players better, but it certainly increases their value because clubs won't accept low offers for them.  Transfer fees and salaries are more competitive in top European leagues and those values get inflated more and more and more.

[Cresthog]

I really do think a lingering, prevailing European bias is part of why guys like Clint Dempsey and Michael Bradley have decided to return to MLS.  Not only are they able to come back and get PAID now, but I think they're tired of fighting against a wave of anti-American bias in Europe.  I belief it was Jeff Carlisle who wrote a great story just earlier this year about the obstacles Americans still face in international soccer.

Absolutley can't balme Duece. He's toiled in England for a LONG time and put in some world class performances there. His career is winding down and he's making bank back in the US.

I'm a bit dissapointed in Bradley. Obviously don't know the whole story but I really wanted to see him wind up with Arsenal. But again, can't balme them if they're getting paid at home.

[Cresthog]

And that's the debate I was having with some reporter on MLS a few nights ago.  The guy wanted to say that Zusi, Besler, Gonzalez and some others needed to leave MLS because they had reached their peak potential in the league, as if going to England or Germany just makes a player better.

His retort was that the best players tend to play in those leagues and England, Italy and France.  That happens because clubs in those league shave more money.  Playing in those leagues doesn't magically make players better, but it certainly increases their value because clubs won't accept low offers for them.  Transfer fees and salaries are more competitive in top European leagues and those values get inflated more and more and more.

Agreed with this too. And if they're not getting regular football, it's pointless for them to play over there anyway.

Regular football in the MLS> sitting on Real Madrid's bench.

[DukeOfPork]

Will Ferrell pumped up US fans in a Brazilian bar last night:
http://metro.co.uk/2014/06/26/will-ferrell-crashes-brazil-world-cup-bar-drives-us-fans-wild-and-pledges-to-bite-every-german-luis-suarez-style-4776260/

[JayBell]

I'm a bit dissapointed in Bradley. Obviously don't know the whole story but I really wanted to see him wind up with Arsenal. But again, can't balme them if they're getting paid at home.

Michael wanted consistent playing time heading into the World Cup.  I think he was in a great situation at Roma, but he just wanted to make sure he was playing.  Roma brought in another dude in January and many believed that he would overtake MB in the team.  I disagreed with them, but Michael still wanted more playing time.  Toronto came in late and made a huge bid, something like twice as big as the next closet team in MLS.  They didn't want to miss out again like they did with Clint Dempsey last year.

Now, here's the thing, Arsenal apparently passed over Bradley in favor of Kim Kallstrom.  A lot of American fans just go, "Oh, Michael Bradley's not good enough to play for Arsenal."  Well, it was Bob Bradley that was saying his son was on Arsenal's radar.  Bob is not one to just lie to the media.

You tell me if you think Kallstrom is better or more useful to Arsenal than Bradley could have been.  That's the kind of bias American players still face and it's ridiculous.

[Cresthog]

Michael wanted consistent playing time heading into the World Cup.  I think he was in a great situation at Roma, but he just wanted to make sure he was playing.  Roma brought in another dude in January and many believed that he would overtake MB in the team.  I disagreed with them, but Michael still wanted more playing time.  Toronto came in late and made a huge bid, something like twice as big as the next closet team in MLS.  They didn't want to miss out again like they did with Clint Dempsey last year.

Now, here's the thing, Arsenal apparently passed over Bradley in favor of Kim Kallstrom.  A lot of American fans just go, "Oh, Michael Bradley's not good enough to play for Arsenal."  Well, it was Bob Bradley that was saying his son was on Arsenal's radar.  Bob is not one to just lie to the media.

You tell me if you think Kallstrom is better or more useful to Arsenal than Bradley could have been.  That's the kind of bias American players still face and it's ridiculous.

Agreed, hopefully if we make some more noise that will go away.

I really hope we shape up and TAKE IT to Belgium. That would be so awesome and have some real momentum into the next round. We just haven't been able to manage any after the portugal heartbreaker.

[dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya]

Defour gets red carded for Belgium.

He only started this game, so probably doesn't help us much - unless they have an injury or 2.  Interesting though

[dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya]

It is ridiculous that some of these teams get into the World Cup

South Korea
Cameroon
Honduras

Honduras is not as bad as they've played.  They beat Mexico at Estadio Azteca in a super rare loss for the Mexicans on their turf.  But the others, I agree.

If the top teams take care of business, the semifinals could be fandamntastic.  You'd have Brazil v. Germany and the Netherlands v. Argentina.  I wouldn't be disappointed one bit if the US was able to break into that group in place of Argentina.

That would be awesome.  If we don't, that still would be a great game - a rematch of the 1978 final between the Netherlands and Argentina, hosted by Argentina in '78 (pre-Maradona).  Argentina's first title and they won it 3-1 in extra-time.

I think Mexico gives The Oranje more problems than people think. I know Holland made it all the way in 2010, but they ALWAYS start hot in every tournement.

I'm really excited to watch that game.

Netherlands - always a bridesmaid....

The international soccer market is a joke.  So much value is based simply on which country someone is from.

Bastian Schweinsteiger, who is about to be 30, is valued at like $50+ million.  Michael Bradley, who is about to be 27, is valued at $8 million.

I really do think a lingering, prevailing European bias is part of why guys like Clint Dempsey and Michael Bradley have decided to return to MLS.  Not only are they able to come back and get PAID now, but I think they're tired of fighting against a wave of anti-American bias in Europe.  I belief it was Jeff Carlisle who wrote a great story just earlier this year about the obstacles Americans still face in international soccer.

This is why I find it difficult to join in the criticism of Wynalda.  I know he's not the greatest commentator, but he was the 1st to play overseas and broke that barrier.  He was truly the first American born-and-raised, whom Europe saw as a legit footballer.

Then he backed it up even more by scoring on a free kick in World Cup USA '94, bending the ball up and over the wall to tie Switzerland, starting our journey out of our group, and to the showdown with eventual champion Brazil.

He then unselfishly signed with the MLS(as did several of our guys to help boost it), and scored the leagues' 1st goal ever.

I know that all has nothing to do with his sports' announcer skills, but he earned my respect by paving the way for so many other of our guys.

And that's the debate I was having with some reporter on MLS a few nights ago.  The guy wanted to say that Zusi, Besler, Gonzalez and some others needed to leave MLS because they had reached their peak potential in the league, as if going to England or Germany just makes a player better.

His retort was that the best players tend to play in those leagues and England, Italy and France.  That happens because clubs in those league shave more money.  Playing in those leagues doesn't magically make players better, but it certainly increases their value because clubs won't accept low offers for them.  Transfer fees and salaries are more competitive in top European leagues and those values get inflated more and more and more.

I found some of Beckham's comments interesting, he didn't seem to think the talent was that much better in Europe.  And that's kind of a generalization, anyway.  Sure the Premiership's talent from it's top teams is higher, Spain's league, maybe even Italy - but you're going to tell me it's a given that the Netherlands' or all of the Italian league's teams are better than MLS, or the Argentine or Brazilian league?

The top MLS teams could be competitive in any of those leagues, and some of the lower end teams of the Euro leagues would struggle in the MLS or even the Mexican league.

That monopoly has been fading and evening out for a while now.

Will Ferrell pumped up US fans in a Brazilian bar last night:
http://metro.co.uk/2014/06/26/will-ferrell-crashes-brazil-world-cup-bar-drives-us-fans-wild-and-pledges-to-bite-every-german-luis-suarez-style-4776260/

LOL

[Horsesrus]

At the risk of several smites, I will admit that I'm one of those soccer snobs that gives little credit to US players.  I haven't seen 10 minutes of an MLS game in my life and I am a huge soccer fan.  Before the World Cup started I couldn't have named 6 US players but could have named several starting lineups with their club teams from Europe, Argentina and Brazil.  I watch all of the Premier League, Champions League and several La Liga games but have zero interest in MLS. 

As for the American players not getting a fair shake in Europe, I tend to disagree.  If they were good enough once they got over there they would play.  If not on the original team that signed them, than on one that would buy them or take them on loan.  US born goalies have certainly played at the top level in England for awhile, but Altidore didn't see the field very much for a team that needed a miracle to stay up in the Premiership.  Dempsey had a successful run at Fulham, but I don't see any American player that would have an impact or get significant playing time on any of the marquee sides in the better leagues.  If they wanted to play in France or in Holland they would get some opportunity to prove themselves but I don't see a Chelsea, Barcelona, PSG, and Juventus having to have a player from the US team other than a goalie like Howard.

And while I agree that playing MLS is better than sitting the bench on Real Madrid, I would say playing for Osasuna against the likes of Real, Atletico or Barcelona would be better for the improvement and development of American players.

The first step is admitting I have a bias so go easy on me.

[dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya]

At the risk of several smites, I will admit that I'm one of those soccer snobs that gives little credit to US players.  I haven't seen 10 minutes of an MLS game in my life and I am a huge soccer fan.  Before the World Cup started I couldn't have named 6 US players but could have named several starting lineups with their club teams from Europe, Argentina and Brazil.  I watch all of the Premier League, Champions League and several La Liga games but have zero interest in MLS. 

As for the American players not getting a fair shake in Europe, I tend to disagree.  If they were good enough once they got over there they would play.  If not on the original team that signed them, than on one that would buy them or take them on loan.  US born goalies have certainly played at the top level in England for awhile, but Altidore didn't see the field very much for a team that needed a miracle to stay up in the Premiership.  Dempsey had a successful run at Fulham, but I don't see any American player that would have an impact or get significant playing time on any of the marquee sides in the better leagues.  If they wanted to play in France or in Holland they would get some opportunity to prove themselves but I don't see a Chelsea, Barcelona, PSG, and Juventus having to have a player from the US team other than a goalie like Howard.

And while I agree that playing MLS is better than sitting the bench on Real Madrid, I would say playing for Osasuna against the likes of Real, Atletico or Barcelona would be better for the improvement and development of American players.

The first step is admitting I have a bias so go easy on me.

You'll never get blasted here for a well expressed opinion.  You make some good points.

I'll have to research some more, but McBride is another American so successful they named the team's pub after him.

I'll need to go back and look at the details of some of the others.

However, you are setting the bar high for your opinion and that in itself is a great thing for U.S. soccer.

[Hogsooey]

At the risk of several smites, I will admit that I'm one of those soccer snobs that gives little credit to US players.  I haven't seen 10 minutes of an MLS game in my life and I am a huge soccer fan.  Before the World Cup started I couldn't have named 6 US players but could have named several starting lineups with their club teams from Europe, Argentina and Brazil.  I watch all of the Premier League, Champions League and several La Liga games but have zero interest in MLS. 

As for the American players not getting a fair shake in Europe, I tend to disagree.  If they were good enough once they got over there they would play.  If not on the original team that signed them, than on one that would buy them or take them on loan.  US born goalies have certainly played at the top level in England for awhile, but Altidore didn't see the field very much for a team that needed a miracle to stay up in the Premiership.  Dempsey had a successful run at Fulham, but I don't see any American player that would have an impact or get significant playing time on any of the marquee sides in the better leagues.  If they wanted to play in France or in Holland they would get some opportunity to prove themselves but I don't see a Chelsea, Barcelona, PSG, and Juventus having to have a player from the US team other than a goalie like Howard.

And while I agree that playing MLS is better than sitting the bench on Real Madrid, I would say playing for Osasuna against the likes of Real, Atletico or Barcelona would be better for the improvement and development of American players.

The first step is admitting I have a bias so go easy on me.

Here's the article that Jay was referring to about the challenges Americans say they face. 

http://www.si.com/soccer/planet-futbol/2014/02/22/usmnt-klinsmann-belief-michael-bradley-clint-dempsey

While I will admit it is possible that Thierry Henry may have been somewhat speaking to his audience, I don't have any reason to think he'd just make this up out of thin air.  Henry said:  "If you're European, you're going to have more chances to break through with a European team if you're already there."

I don't think it was in this article, but I remember one (former?) manager or personnel director saying something like this.... Your job is on the line.  If you have two equal players, one African player and one American player, you are going to go with the African player.  Because if you lose and you picked the American player, you'll hear about it.  But, if you lose, and you picked the African player, they won't blame you.  I may be stretching it here, but when Oguchi Onyewu went to AC Milan, I think there was some reason they made sure to throw in "the Nigerian-American," even though he grew up here.

It's also not getting any easier to break into the Premier League for American players unless you play a ton for the US national team.  Juan Agudelo couldn't get a work permit for Stoke despite nearly 20 caps for us.  And, the kid has talent. 

Anyway, the fact that we may not have players good enough to play for Chelsea, PSG (although PSG was interested in Donovan, who wasn't good enough to make our WC squad, haha, various times a few years ago), or Barcelona doesn't mean there isn't a bias.  Michael Bradley can play big time minutes at Roma, but he could barely get a look at Aston Villa?  That makes no sense.  Plus, Dempsey was consistently one of Fulham's best players, but nearly every time they got a new coach, he'd end up on the bench and have to battle his way back to being their best player.  I'm all for guys earning their spots, but that was a bit much. 

And, I think you are confused about Altidore at Sunderland.  He played a ton - he just didn't score.  lol  Unfortunately for me, I watched practically every one of their games.  While I'll admit he had lost confidence by February and struggled, I knew after a few games of watching their midfield fail to exhibit any ability to link up with one another and just take long distance shots in the final third, that it was going to be a very long season for Altidore.  And, it was a long season for him... and me. 

Finally, this doesn't necessarily help me argue a case for bias, unless I say they might have thought they wouldn't get a fair shake, but guys like Gonzalez, Zusi, and Besler all chose to stay in MLS despite interest from the Premier League and Bundesliga. 

[Hogsooey]

You'll never get blasted here for a well expressed opinion.  You make some good points.

I'll have to research some more, but McBride is another American so successful they named the team's pub after him.

I'll need to go back and look at the details of some of the others.

However, you are setting the bar high for your opinion and that in itself is a great thing for U.S. soccer.

Steve Cherundolo is a legend at Hannover 96.  Was captain and spent his entire career there. 

[dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya]

Steve Cherundolo is a legend at Hannover 96.  Was captain and spent his entire career there. 

Another good example.

As far as the MLS becoming more appealing to European/South American players, there are so many advantages besides $.  Good schools for kiddos(High Schools and Universities), post-career opportunities like coaching or sports' media, safety(some countries targeting the wealthy for kidnapping/theft is out of control), cost of living, labor unions, pensions, insurance, etc.

The MLS will continue to get better as long as they keep doing things the way they are now.

[cbhawg03]

At the risk of several smites, I will admit that I'm one of those soccer snobs that gives little credit to US players.  I haven't seen 10 minutes of an MLS game in my life and I am a huge soccer fan.  Before the World Cup started I couldn't have named 6 US players but could have named several starting lineups with their club teams from Europe, Argentina and Brazil.  I watch all of the Premier League, Champions League and several La Liga games but have zero interest in MLS. 

As for the American players not getting a fair shake in Europe, I tend to disagree.  If they were good enough once they got over there they would play.  If not on the original team that signed them, than on one that would buy them or take them on loan.  US born goalies have certainly played at the top level in England for awhile, but Altidore didn't see the field very much for a team that needed a miracle to stay up in the Premiership.  Dempsey had a successful run at Fulham, but I don't see any American player that would have an impact or get significant playing time on any of the marquee sides in the better leagues.  If they wanted to play in France or in Holland they would get some opportunity to prove themselves but I don't see a Chelsea, Barcelona, PSG, and Juventus having to have a player from the US team other than a goalie like Howard.

And while I agree that playing MLS is better than sitting the bench on Real Madrid, I would say playing for Osasuna against the likes of Real, Atletico or Barcelona would be better for the improvement and development of American players.

The first step is admitting I have a bias so go easy on me.

I am in the same boat with the MLS. You would have to pay me to watch a MLS game.

[dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya]

I'ts really odd that Diego Costa chose Spain. He'd be a shoe in as their out and out striker and it was in the run up to a Brazilian world cup.

I bet he's severely regretting that decisions.

Yep, he'll be dreaming of that "do over" button every night..

[Horsesrus]

I looked up the stats and saw that Altidore did start 19 of the 38 Premier League games for Sunderland.  I must assume that most of those starts came in the first half of the campaign because I didn't see much of him later in the season when they were making their recovery to stay up.  I only followed them because I like Poyet and was hoping they would avoid the drop. 

After reading the article, I tend to agree more with Klinsmann's thoughts than the players' responses.  I think the American players must have the desire to fight for their place at a top club.  Now with the MLS apparently paying a good wage in comparison, they know they can be a star here and not have to fight to keep their place.  It will take American players fighting through the perceived bias to get rid of it.  Other than the goalies, there hasn't been enough success for clubs to choose the American over an Argentine or African.  Until enough US players fight the man and prove them wrong, it will always exist and with the wages of MLS increasing they may never have the need to fight that perceived bias. 

[JayBell]

Oh, man.  You guys just had to push my buttons.  I'm about to have a barrage of posts.

[JayBell]

Here's the article that Jay was referring to about the challenges Americans say they face. 

http://www.si.com/soccer/planet-futbol/2014/02/22/usmnt-klinsmann-belief-michael-bradley-clint-dempsey

While I will admit it is possible that Thierry Henry may have been somewhat speaking to his audience, I don't have any reason to think he'd just make this up out of thin air.  Henry said:  "If you're European, you're going to have more chances to break through with a European team if you're already there."

I don't think it was in this article, but I remember one (former?) manager or personnel director saying something like this.... Your job is on the line.  If you have two equal players, one African player and one American player, you are going to go with the African player.  Because if you lose and you picked the American player, you'll hear about it.  But, if you lose, and you picked the African player, they won't blame you.  I may be stretching it here, but when Oguchi Onyewu went to AC Milan, I think there was some reason they made sure to throw in "the Nigerian-American," even though he grew up here.

I read that one too, but this is the article I was talking about, where it asks, "Why aren't American players taken seriously in Europe?" http://www.espnfc.com/blog/relegation-zone/71/post/1851636/why-cant-us-soccer-players-get-respect-in-european-football

So many great tidbits:

- From New York Red Bulls general manager Jerome de Bontin, a Parisian by birth, who was formerly president of AS Monaco: "European scouts simply don't track Americans aggressively because there is no financial incentive to work in this market," he said. "When they are aged 15 to 17, American players want to keep their college eligibility and will only give it up if they can be guaranteed a European club [which most agents cannot offer]. Compare that to Eastern Europe, where agents scour the land. Or Africa, where some Belgian clubs have made a business out of importing young talent en masse."

- More from de Bontin: "European clubs remain condescending when it comes to U.S. soccer," he said. "I saw that first hand at Monaco when I tried to help young American players join clubs in France or Austria. Any president who brought one in would face a fight with a coach who won't give an American the time of day, not because he is lacking skill-wise or physically, but because U.S. players are not taken seriously."

- From Herculez Gomez: "From a competitive point of view, Europe is still the ultimate goal for American players, but that dream is neither as enticing as it once was, nor as attractive as American fans think it is," he began. "Unless you are [a] top-four player in a top team in a big league, it is very 'take what you can get' joining a team in Europe. [It] always feels like a risk. You are constantly trying to open doors for yourself but you have a very limited window to make money in Europe."

- More from Gomez: "And the truth is, there are other places that are more lucrative from a financial perspective," Gomez added with a chuckle. "As they say about the Premier League, it is glitz, glamour and 50 percent tax." Gomez candidly explained how players view the career decisions they make. "[Fans] have an illusion it is important to compete at the highest level, but there comes a time in everyone's life -– whether you are a professional footballer or not –- when you ask yourself who you are, what you want and how you can take advantage of what you have while you can," he said.

As you can see, it's not nearly the black-and-white world that so many soccer fans want to think it is when they argue how bad MLS is or how poor American players are.

[JayBell]

At the risk of several smites, I will admit that I'm one of those soccer snobs that gives little credit to US players.  I haven't seen 10 minutes of an MLS game in my life and I am a huge soccer fan.  Before the World Cup started I couldn't have named 6 US players but could have named several starting lineups with their club teams from Europe, Argentina and Brazil.  I watch all of the Premier League, Champions League and several La Liga games but have zero interest in MLS.

I mean, I don't know how to respond when you admit you have a bias.  Is it really that difficult to put the channel on ESPN on a random Thursday or Sunday when there's no football on.

It is this willful ignorance that damages MLS.  There are a lot of sports fans who don't just know much about soccer or MLS, but how can any soccer fan rationalize intentionally ignoring our own domestic league which your support could help improve?

As for the American players not getting a fair shake in Europe, I tend to disagree.  If they were good enough once they got over there they would play.  If not on the original team that signed them, than on one that would buy them or take them on loan.  US born goalies have certainly played at the top level in England for awhile, but Altidore didn't see the field very much for a team that needed a miracle to stay up in the Premiership.  Dempsey had a successful run at Fulham, but I don't see any American player that would have an impact or get significant playing time on any of the marquee sides in the better leagues.  If they wanted to play in France or in Holland they would get some opportunity to prove themselves but I don't see a Chelsea, Barcelona, PSG, and Juventus having to have a player from the US team other than a goalie like Howard.

Then you haven't been paying attention.  Hogsooey provided several great examples and you could really go on and on about it.  The best American soccer players ever always faced a bias in Europe.  If Dempsey wasn't American, he would have been playing for someone like Arsenal or Atletico Madrid back in 2009 after he had an outstanding Confederations Cup.

And while I agree that playing MLS is better than sitting the bench on Real Madrid, I would say playing for Osasuna against the likes of Real, Atletico or Barcelona would be better for the improvement and development of American players.

But why?  It is because of your perceived perception that those leagues provide more competitive opportunities.  We have this belief that going to a better league magically makes a player better without taking into account that those leagues are perceived as better mainly because they spend more money.

[JayBell]

I am in the same boat with the MLS. You would have to pay me to watch a MLS game.

And yet, more than half of the MLS players in the World Cup just advanced to the knockout rounds.  If Honduras wasn't so damn horrible, that ratio would be even higher up.  MLS had a stronger presence than most leagues in the world and the US had a larger MLS contingent than it had in the past three World Cups.

You see how underrated MLS players are when Beckerman, at age 32, is shocking the world.  Even English media have raved about Beckerman, and they struggle giving Americans credit for anything in soccer.

Then you have Dempsey, who obviously has not been hurt by returning to MLS; we know definitively that Zusi and Besler had opportunities in the EPL (Javier Morales was wanted by teams in La Liga) but they chose to stay in MLS; Yedlin has been the impact sub the last two weeks, he is the second American academy product to play in the World Cup (Andy Najar started for Honduras); Omar Gonzalez had to be signed to a Designated Player contract to be kept in LA because he was a lock to be signed by someone in the EPL.

Giancarlo Gonzalez, of Costa Rica, is considered by many to be one of the standout defensive players in this World Cup.  He plays for the Columbus Crew and his national team just ousted the likes of Andrea Pirlo and Wayne Rooney.  Brazilian starting goalkeeper Julio Cesar desperately wants NOT to have to go back to Queens Park Rangers because he loved playing for Toronto FC so much.

I could go on and on but real evidence doesn't seem to do the trick.  For some reason, with both Americans and the international soccer community, there is a willful ignorance and a structural bias to discount MLS and its players, especially US players.