Is Bret Bielema a good fit at Arkansas?

[ricepig]

Figuratively speaking it literally makes my head exsplode when I hear someone say Petrino broke the law, here's a legal explanation why he did not.

https://ogc.byu.edu/NACUANotes/NACUANote-2012May30.pdf

He was fired for continually lying to his bosses, he just also happened to be laying his new hire.

[ChitownHawg]

They've got a good JUCO program in Australia, come on...........

I think it was in California. Oh well Australia or California - both are west of us. 

[ricepig]

I think it was in California. Oh well Australia or California - both are west of us. 

Shirley you jest........

[Pork Twain]

Shirley you jest........

Who're you calling Shirley?

[ChitownHawg]

Who're you calling Shirley?

One of my all time favorite comedies.

[WashUhog6]

I'm talking about the typical Big10 offense.  Smash-mouth, downhill running.  Here's a quote from Bielema regarding the offense he was installing at UA:
Bielema's words, not mine.

As for the NFL, there is elite talent across the board on offense and defense so the comparison isn't apt.  My point was that it is easier to run the smash-mouth offense in the Big10 where the athleticism and talent on the defensive side of the ball isn't nearly up to SEC standards.  UA succeeded under Petrino because his spread attack acted as an equalizer in the talent gap.  The same has been true for Sumlin and my Aggies.

My only issue with your post is that it's revisionist history for Bielema to say that a power running game wasn't in our history just as it's revisionist to compare Petrino's offense to Sumlin's, or any other modern spread for that matter.

The 2011 offense was much less dependent on the power run, but Petrino still loved to line up in the I-formation, and with the QB under center. The 2010 offense ran out of the I all the time, and powered the ball down the defense's throat in the back half of the season. What we did against LSU in the 4th quarter that year was very much power running. It's the 2012 offense that set everything out of balance, but that season set us back immensely every where.

Bielema is right that he has to have time--even 2-3 years--to develop our team into that kind of attitude, but it's not like these players were running Gus's HUNH before Bielema came around.

Honestly, this argument about whether we have the talent to make a power running game successful in the SEC comes down to matchups, like it always does in football. We'll more than likely struggle mightily against Alabama and Florida, but find success against LSU, A&M, Auburn, and Georgia.

[GuvHog]

The point is, half of the schools in the Big Ten run spread offenses and have for several years and Bret's Pro Style offense won him 3 Rose Bowl trips in a row over teams that run those type offenses. His schemes won't make or break him, it will be his ability to recruit the talent. I believe the guy will put great offensive teams and adequate defensive teams on the field year after year. I think he fits what Arkansas football has represented most of my life and that was a good rushing attack, and a strong defense.

Petrino was fortunate that Mallett, Childs, Wright, Adams and Williams (homegrown talent) fell in his lap and gave him 2 years of success. The last 2 years illustrate how poorly he was actually able to recruit. I don't think his success would have been sustainable at UA.

If Bielema had a decent, healthy QB last year and some WR's that could hang on to the ball, the team would have easily won 6 games, which was about what was expected from most. We probably wouldn't have this thread going and fans would have seen on the field that he was going to be successful. 

When Bielema stabilizes all phases of his plan, the team will consistently roll out good teams, year after year.

After Hooty was fired, Wright and Childs, although still committed, "Wavered" and decided to look around. Joe Adams was a A University of Southern Cal LOCK until Petrino visited him and got him to flip to the Hogs just before signing day. Bobby Petrino got Childs, and Wright to reaffirm their commitments and flipped Adams from USC. Saying they dropped in his lap is false, he had to re-recruit the 2 from Warren and convince Adams to flip.

[Big Poppa Z]

Saying they dropped in his lap is false, he had to re-recruit the warn 3 and convince Adams to flip.

Okay.  3/4 of them dropped in his lap and the other enjoyed the concept of inflated stats to make him an NFL star which didn't work.

Noted.

[GuvHog]

Okay.  3/4 of them dropped in his lap and the other enjoyed the concept of inflated stats to make him an NFL star which didn't work.

Noted.

The only 3 that really dropped in his lap that year were D. J. Williams, Mallett, and Gragg so it's 3/6

[Big Poppa Z]

The only 2 that really dropped in his lap were D.J. Williams and Gragg.

Why would I beat your fallacious dead horse with yet more players disproving your agenda?

[Mike_e]

My only issue with your post is that it's revisionist history for Bielema to say that a power running game wasn't in our history just as it's revisionist to compare Petrino's offense to Sumlin's, or any other modern spread for that matter.

The 2011 offense was much less dependent on the power run, but Petrino still loved to line up in the I-formation, and with the QB under center. The 2010 offense ran out of the I all the time, and powered the ball down the defense's throat in the back half of the season. What we did against LSU in the 4th quarter that year was very much power running. It's the 2012 offense that set everything out of balance, but that season set us back immensely every where.

Bielema is right that he has to have time--even 2-3 years--to develop our team into that kind of attitude, but it's not like these players were running Gus's HUNH before Bielema came around.

Honestly, this argument about whether we have the talent to make a power running game successful in the SEC comes down to matchups, like it always does in football. We'll more than likely struggle mightily against Alabama and Florida, but find success against LSU, A&M, Auburn, and Georgia.

BP's Oline was trained to pass block not run block.  Look at the differences just physically between what we have now and then.

They say everything starts at the line and this is true.  BP kept looking for a 250lb tailback because the line was trained to keep the DL from getting into the backfield and the running back needed to make his own holes- or get a stud fullback to do it for him.

Knile was a freak physical specimen and things worked out well the season he was healthy but that was an abhoration, just look at the results the rest of the time.

To run downhill takes some space and the only way you get that is for the OLine to drive the DLine back enough to give it not to stay in one spot and call it a draw.  You can find running backs to do it but you have to train the line.

[GuvHog]

Why would I beat your fallacious dead horse with yet more players disproving your agenda?

I added Mallett to that and it's true. Of those 6 players, only 3 fell into BP's lap.

[Big Poppa Z]

I added Mallett to that and it's true. Of those 6 players, only 3 fell into BP's lap.

That players fell into Petrino's lap?

Of course it is.

We saw what occurs when they don't.

[GuvHog]

That players fell into Petrino's lap?

Of course it is.

We saw what occurs when they don't.

Actually we saw what happens when the AD fires a coach that just led his team to finish the previous season ranked #5 in the nation and replaces him with a blithering idiot Interim HC for a year.

[Tusks]

Ryan Mallett was NOT going to be a hog until he talked to BP.  BP helped make a life long dream come true for RM.  It hootie was still on the hill then RM would NOT have been a hog.

[WashUhog6]

BP's Oline was trained to pass block not run block.  Look at the differences just physically between what we have now and then.

They say everything starts at the line and this is true.  BP kept looking for a 250lb tailback because the line was trained to keep the DL from getting into the backfield and the running back needed to make his own holes- or get a stud fullback to do it for him.

Knile was a freak physical specimen and things worked out well the season he was healthy but that was an abhoration, just look at the results the rest of the time.

To run downhill takes some space and the only way you get that is for the OLine to drive the DLine back enough to give it not to stay in one spot and call it a draw.  You can find running backs to do it but you have to train the line.

Petrino's teams were certainly built differently and my post never argued the contrary. It's a switch in philosophy, no doubt, but we didn't go from running A&M's offense to the current system. And that's not why Petrino had larger backs, that's just making things up. We had a guy like Kiero Small on the roster for goodness sakes, and he was utilized as the fullback in the I all the time. And we recruited massive offensive lineman, they were just poorly developed.

Bielema needs time to build his roster and it will take time, but you don't have to say untrue things in order to justify it. He's a second year coach still piecing the roster together, that's justification enough.

[Peter Porker]

Yes, phone calls and commitments had to be made, they didn't drop through the ceiling into his lap. However, those kids wanted to be Razorbacks and all it took was a coach with an offense that wanted to showcase them to show up.
The bigger point of that was, rarely do 5 kids from Ark show up in 1 year that can take you to a #5 ranking and turn a questionable coach into a cult hero with some of you guys so easily.

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[lumphog]

The point is, half of the schools in the Big Ten run spread offenses and have for several years and Bret's Pro Style offense won him 3 Rose Bowl trips in a row over teams that run those type offenses. His schemes won't make or break him, it will be his ability to recruit the talent. I believe the guy will put great offensive teams and adequate defensive teams on the field year after year. I think he fits what Arkansas football has represented most of my life and that was a good rushing attack, and a strong defense.

Petrino was fortunate that Mallett, Childs, Wright, Adams and Williams (homegrown talent) fell in his lap and gave him 2 years of success. The last 2 years illustrate how poorly he was actually able to recruit. I don't think his success would have been sustainable at UA.

If Bielema had a decent, healthy QB last year and some WR's that could hang on to the ball, the team would have easily won 6 games, which was about what was expected from most. We probably wouldn't have this thread going and fans would have seen on the field that he was going to be successful. 

When Bielema stabilizes all phases of his plan, the team will consistently roll out good teams, year after year.

Good post Gulf +1

[Pickwick Hog]

Bielema is an excellent fit. I have more admiration and respect for him than I do for anyone on this board. Thanks for asking.

[GuvHog]

Yes, phone calls and commitments had to be made, they didn't drop through the ceiling into his lap. However, those kids wanted to be Razorbacks and all it took was a coach with an offense that wanted to showcase them to show up.
The bigger point of that was, rarely do 5 kids from Ark show up in 1 year that can take you to a #5 ranking and turn a questionable coach into a cult hero with some of you guys so easily. 

How is it that you come to a conclusion that a player who was a USC lock until right before signing day always wanted to be a Razorback??? That's a pretty big stretch there. I have a serious problem with people who refuse to give Petrino the credit for what he accomplished at Arkansas in only 4 years. Did he have problems with recruiting?? Yes, but that doesn't take away from what he accomplished in such a short time. If Bielema is able to turn things round and make the program a consistent top 15 finisher, I won't hesitate to give him full credit because he will very much deserve it.

[three hog night]

Well, maybe I didn't entirely come to that conclusion. Or maybe I lived in LR at that time and know Joe was always in the works at UA regardless of coaches.
Joe is a smart kid and realized that he was buried in the depth chart at USC. He was given hope that he would play right away at UA and likely start. It was appealing enough that he had a change of plans. Joe Adams make a smart decision that was best for his life. Let's not fool ourselves into thinking that Joe would have made an immediate impact on the USC program as he did at UA. I don't see much of Joe on Sundays these days, but you can't hardly watch games on Sundays without seeing good USC WR's on the field.

No one is trying to take away your sense of appreciation for Coach Bobby Petrino, much less me. I would still be very much in his corner if he was the coach at UA today and had not taken the liberty of putting the UA program into such dire straits as he most assuredly did. I can even almost get past him lying to us and his superiors.
He got fired for his actions and is history and holds little place in my heart for what he accomplished in football at UA, because as a man, he was a horrible fit for the University of Arkansas. I still love the thought that Institutions are places of higher learning and their main job is the molding of young men and teaching them life's lesson. Bobby Petrino did not fit that ideal as a man or a teacher. Bobby was/is a brilliant football mind, but he is not smarter than everyone else he comes in contact with as he most assuredly thinks he is.

+1000

[Biggus Piggus]

All totaled, there are 42 Bielema recruits on that list and 37 Petrino recruits. That's pretty darn close (If my math is correct).

Holy crap, Guv. You said Petrino provided most of the players for this team. And you implied that most of the big contributors came from Petrino too. Both are dead wrong. Not pretty darn close.

And BIELEMA DID IT WITH TWO RECRUITING CLASSES for crying out loud.

[Biggus Piggus]

The only 3 that really dropped in his lap that year were D. J. Williams, Mallett, and Gragg so it's 3/6

LOL. D.J. Williams was signed by Houston Nutt. Wrong again.

[Biggus Piggus]

Uncommon, I didn't count these guys because they are walk-ons who are unlikely to play much:

Arinze, Payne, Loewen, Voelzke

Also - am unsure about the status of Ward.

Also, all you have to do is look at the list of Olinemen left over from Petrino, and you know he did not leave the Hogs with good depth. Not even close.

[Steef]

Bobby recruited several OL in the 2010 class. But most of them left.

[three hog night]

Yes, phone calls and commitments had to be made, they didn't drop through the ceiling into his lap. However, those kids wanted to be Razorbacks and all it took was a coach with an offense that wanted to showcase them to show up.
The bigger point of that was, rarely do 5 kids from Ark show up in 1 year that can take you to a #5 ranking and turn a questionable coach into a cult hero with some of you guys so easily.

So true yet sad.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

Bobby recruited several OL in the 2010 class. But most of them left.

2008-2011 If I am counting correctly, 18 signed with only 8 staying long enough to contribute for 3-4 years before leaving. That's a 55.5% attrition rate along the OL and at least half of those guys who stayed, are already gone. Of course, this doesn't count walk-ons during that time.

Edit: Actually I think it is 17 as I made an error in counting Oden twice. So 17 signed, 8 stayed. So 53% attrition rate.

[Biggus Piggus]

Bobby recruited several OL in the 2010 class. But most of them left.

Denton Simek -- was a tight end, moved to OL, washed out.
Luke Charpentier -- still on the team.
Cam Feldt -- washed out.


Only signed three.

[Biggus Piggus]

In 2009:

Anthony Oden - might have been good in time, but bombed out.
Colby Berna - injuries knocked him off the team.
Travis Swanson - all-conference center, now in NFL.
Zhamal Thomas - juco transfer was a career backup.
Alvin Bailey - all-conference guard, failed academically, then went pro early.
Shauntez Bruce - academically ineligible.
Kevin Lowery - academically ineligible.

[Uncommon]

Uncommon, I didn't count these guys because they are walk-ons who are unlikely to play much:

Arinze, Payne, Loewen, Voelzke

Also - am unsure about the status of Ward.

Also, all you have to do is look at the list of Olinemen left over from Petrino, and you know he did not leave the Hogs with good depth. Not even close.

3 of the 4 walk-ons you listed are currently on scholarship. Payne is a guy that had a heck of a spring. Good enough to earn a spot on the 1s team in the Spring. Over guys like Drew Morgan and Eric Hawkins. He could be a guy you hear about this season.

Ward had back surgery and is still rehabbing. Saw him in a video the University did about what is going on the athletic training/physical therapy center.

Sorry I didn't clarify about the good depth left by Petrino. I meant good depth as in numbers not so much raw talent.

[GuvHog]

LOL. D.J. Williams was signed by Houston Nutt. Wrong again.

Okay, make that 2/5. Thanks for catching that.

[LZH]

Okay, make that 2/5. Thanks for catching that.

Guv, you are obviously a huge Hog fan and a very nice guy...but just a skosh of research every now and then would save you so much grief.

[Biggus Piggus]

3 of the 4 walk-ons you listed are currently on scholarship. Payne is a guy that had a heck of a spring. Good enough to earn a spot on the 1s team in the Spring. Over guys like Drew Morgan and Eric Hawkins. He could be a guy you hear about this season.

Ward had back surgery and is still rehabbing. Saw him in a video the University did about what is going on the athletic training/physical therapy center.

Sorry I didn't clarify about the good depth left by Petrino. I meant good depth as in numbers not so much raw talent.

Beware of spring depth charts. Some guys play in spring because nobody else is available. You should ask Oklahawg about the spring practice all-star team. He has a long list of guys who were talked up in spring, disappeared in fall.

I do not believe your statement about the number of former walk-ons on scholarship is correct. Those things can change every year. They are not four-year deals. But it has been a while before I doublechecked the scholarship roster. Voelzke plays but does not accumulate any stats. My inclination is that with Henry, Derby, Sprinkle and the freshman, Voelzke would get special teams time and not much else. Not sure how much credit I should give him.

Loewen moved to defensive end, and he has a long row to hoe at that position.

When coaches talk about depth, the word actually means "usable depth."

[Big Poppa Z]

Holy crap, Guv. You said Petrino provided most of the players for this team. And you implied that most of the big contributors came from Petrino too. Both are dead wrong. Not pretty darn close.

And BIELEMA DID IT WITH TWO RECRUITING CLASSES for crying out loud.

Which supports a lot of rational theories put forth by many, many people who actually think: meaning Bobby is bad, Bret is good, or degrees of both.

Either way, Petrino comes out as performing -- at best -- not well at building a program.

[Uncommon]

Beware of spring depth charts. Some guys play in spring because nobody else is available. You should ask Oklahawg about the spring practice all-star team. He has a long list of guys who were talked up in spring, disappeared in fall.

I do not believe your statement about the number of former walk-ons on scholarship is correct. Those things can change every year. They are not four-year deals. But it has been a while before I doublechecked the scholarship roster. Voelzke plays but does not accumulate any stats. My inclination is that with Henry, Derby, Sprinkle and the freshman, Voelzke would get special teams time and not much else. Not sure how much credit I should give him.

Loewen moved to defensive end, and he has a long row to hoe at that position.

When coaches talk about depth, the word actually means "usable depth."

I understand that Kendrick Payne could get buried on the depth chart once Kendrick Edwards, JoJo Robinson, and Demetrius Wilson (80% healthy in the Spring according to Coach B) join practices but to get on the 1s above guys who were signed as wide receivers on scholarship in the first place is noticeable.  Reason I included him was because I just was seeing how many Bielema signed and how many Petrino signed with what I believe is our Top 85 (85 most likely to be on scholarship).

Scholarships can change every year but I doubt he would've given one year scholarships to Loewen and Voelzke who were Redshirt Sophomores at the time.  That seems kind of cruel.  Here's a tweet to back my facts up (look in replies to see all 6): https://twitter.com/jasonrcarroll/status/369297205959479296

And I agree that he didn't leave usable depth on the offensive line.  All I was saying was he did leave a lot in numbers.

[Biggus Piggus]

A football team can have 85 players on scholarship. My shorthand is that a team needs to get those 85 from 4.5 recruiting classes. That assumes one-half of any given class is able to redshirt.

And that means the team needs to get about 19 players to stick per recruiting class. You can get there in part with walk-ons. How many keeper walk-ons can you count on per season -- depends on how good your walk-on program is. The preseason roster limit is 105. That is how many players can go through August workouts. My understanding is that, if a team fails to put 85 on scholarship, the preferred walk-on limit remains 20.

How many usable players does a team need in a season? It's more than 50, close to 60. It is preferable to have close to 50 scholarship players in active participation, with a handful of walk-ons also contributing.

Those 19 scholarship players per year come from signees + walk-ons. An optimal mix might be 17 signees, two walk-ons.

If a team succeeds in obtaining 19 keeper scholarship players per year, then it isn't ever going to be allowed to sign 25 players in February + keep all of them in August. Obviously, with the big signing groups Arkansas had the past two classes, Petrino didn't come anywhere close to 19.

2012 - looking like 14 and falling
2011 - down to 17 including some who'll never play
2010 - only 11

That's just the signees. Walk-ons, we had David Hurd become a starter; other than deep snappers, not sure how many made a mark. A couple on special teams. We had a couple get a shot at LB last fall, but that did not pan out.

[Biggus Piggus]

Scholarships can change every year but I doubt he would've given one year scholarships to Loewen and Voelzke who were Redshirt Sophomores at the time.

It has been a common practice at Arkansas over the years for excess scholarships to be handed out to walk-ons in a one-year arrangement. Coaches let those players know up front - this is a one-year deal. If we need it in recruiting, we'll have to use it. Some walk-ons with one-year deals got converted to full rides, if they started or made a big impact somehow. Some walk-ons come in never expecting to win a full ride. Some expect one.

Arkansas has had many February signees who were on contingent deals -- they would get scholarships only if other signees failed to qualify. Otherwise, they would be preferred walk-ons, or in some cases, grayshirts. One way or another, those players expected eventually to get scholarships. They didn't always get them.

[Oklahawg]

Beware of spring depth charts. Some guys play in spring because nobody else is available. You should ask Oklahawg about the spring practice all-star team. He has a long list of guys who were talked up in spring, disappeared in fall.

When coaches talk about depth, the word actually means "usable depth."

One of the exercises that produces a big sigh is the cut/paste of the university website depth charts. We get a list of 10-12 players when only 5-6 are actually scholarship players. The list includes tons of "program kids" who are scout teamers who never don a uniform and run through the "A".

Someone is always tempted to suggest one of those non-scholarship names will "step up" and contribute. The odds are heavily against them. They are excluded from a lot of perks deep within the program. For example, I believe (not certain) even preferred walk-ons have to take 12 hours to be eligible, while scholarship players only need to complete 24 every calendar year, with as few as 6 coming in a long (fall or spring) semester.

Hawgs Illustrated publishes a season preview with position coaches talking about their players. They always list players who are never going to be near game action. The coaches offer up a quote to the effect of, "John Smith is a nice program player who is doing everything he can to help us win."

Bobby Bowden talked about 15 players a class. He was able to knock the numbers lower than Biggus' 19 because FSU was able to cherry pick athletes that were more likely to be "field ready" coming out of HS. Fewer position switches from HS to NCAA, too, for those bigger programs.

[Oklahawg]

Spring games are a bad place to look for team development. They just are.

Too likely to be playing "squad" players who eek into the 2-deep before the latest recruiting class fleshes out the depth chart. Lots of players held out of contact or given limited reps for injury reasons, pushing more walk-on types onto the field with the players we actually recognize from the regular season.

If you develop 2-3 walk-ons a year it is amazing. The odds are so long. They are spotted on special teams, more than anywhere else, where the coaching staff is trying to save a player due to depth issues.

[Biggus Piggus]

Yes, Okla, everyone makes do with fewer than 85 keepers. That is just the maximum. What they are shooting for are the 60-odd players per season who see the football field. To get those covered, you need about 15 keepers per season. Can't count on much of the freshman class for that, and of course jucos mess up the cycle too.

[Pork Twain]

It has been a common practice at Arkansas over the years for excess scholarships to be handed out to walk-ons in a one-year arrangement. Coaches let those players know up front - this is a one-year deal. If we need it in recruiting, we'll have to use it. Some walk-ons with one-year deals got converted to full rides, if they started or made a big impact somehow. Some walk-ons come in never expecting to win a full ride. Some expect one.

Arkansas has had many February signees who were on contingent deals -- they would get scholarships only if other signees failed to qualify. Otherwise, they would be preferred walk-ons, or in some cases, grayshirts. One way or another, those players expected eventually to get scholarships. They didn't always get them.

For a family paying for college, one year paid for is better than no year paid for.