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Author Topic: IFR Training  (Read 3770 times)

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GusMcRae

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IFR Training
« on: June 09, 2014, 10:29:29 am »

Since I think I have my plane issues resolved that were delaying my instrument training, and I believe my quest for the IFR ticket is about to heat up, I thought I would start a thread that all of us working on it have a place to post our latest experiences with IFR training.   So, feel free to post your IFR stories or helpful hints to those of us who are trying to join the ranks of those that have already been through it. 
I'll start with what I've already posted on another thread about my latest lesson:

When I got home from my trip to Aggieland, my CFII was in the pattern with another student, but was about to finish up.  So, after a short break from the 2 hour and 20 min flight home, I climbed back in with him and got 2 hours under the hood.  VOR approaches at KCDS, 1 GPS approach at KCDS, and then back to F05 for a GPS approach. 
I've got to stick with it and get some repitition in.  I think I have more trouble figuring out how to punch it in my 430, and understanding the info on the approach plates than anything. 
He gave me homework,,,, study the apporach plates that we flew yesterday,,, and this afternoon, we will go back and fly the exact same approaches we did yesterday.  Weather should be fine this afternoon, getting a little break from the severe heat with a mid-80's high temp today. 

The 430 is an amazing piece of equipment.  I just need to get more proficient with learning how to use it.  I know there is an old tutorial download, but it only works on a very outdated version of windows, which I no longer have.  I just need some repitition. 
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Flying Razorback

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2014, 06:44:55 pm »

I always study the approach plates of unfamiliar fields.  But after so many years I can quickly discern any new approach instantly.  I used to teach it to my students that it was far more important to learn the basics and know what you're looking for in an approach plate than it ever is to memorize the approach.

I'd have students who were afraid of flying an ILS they hadn't "seen" before but were ok flying one they had done 100 times.  I used to say "An ILS is an ILS is an ILS..." 

If I have a lot of time before I get to the field I'll gouge up the plate with some good info.  I'll circle my minimums, write out any changes from the NOTAMs, study the climb out requirements, and calculate what my average descent needs to be on all segments of the approach.  I calculate a VDP if one isn't presented and mark that in there as well.

I also think it's very important to know what you're going to see when you look up and see the field at minimums.  From 200' inbounds you don't have enough time to try and decide whether you're looking at what you're supposed to be looking at when you break out.  So I always look at the lighting system, the runway markings, the approach environment, and what the runway dimensions and layout is.

It can be tough going, but like the rest of flying with enough repetition it becomes second nature.  Set up a good cockpit diagram and get plenty of time practicing your crosscheck.  Talk yourself through what you're looking for and be able to speak your crosscheck.  Then when flying you need to be able to talk yourself through it so you don't get hung on one instrument.

Also, never stop doing your "6 T's" or whatever technique you're taught.  After thousands of hours I still say them in my head or out loud when crossing any segment of the approach.  It'll keep you flying and make you review all information so you don't get focused on one task.
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bvillepig

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2014, 09:59:45 pm »

Gus
I am pretty sure the download on the Garmin web site for the 430s works on XP, up.  I know it works on 7 . The database is pretty outdated so you wont get every approach at every airport but it will help with the button pushes.

 I have over 1800 hours with the 430s so let me know if you have any questions. I will try to help if I can.

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GusMcRae

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2014, 08:50:43 am »

bvillepig,
Thank you for this information.  I may be asking you a lot of questions.  I have had no formal classroom instruction for my written (passed it back in Feb of 2013).  I have to confess I don't know what the 6 T's are, so please fill me in.   I did a quick google search for it and don't find it.  But I can see exactly what you're talking about as far as spending too much time on one instrument and neglecting another, and instantly I bust an altitude or my needle has already crept over close to the edge of the circle. 
My CFII is a great pilot, but sometimes I think he fails to start me at the beginning, kind of throws me in the middle.  He knows how to make the 430 stand on it's head and juggle bowling pins, and when he whizzes through it, I get lost.  I've slowed him down and have been making him let me make the changes to the 430.  It was much better yesterday.  I got another 2 hours duel in, it was horribly windy and rough, but I did better.  Going to a different airport today to shoot a VOR approach without the 430.
Please tell me what the 6 Ts are, that should help me.  More to come.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2014, 09:48:31 am by GusMcRae »
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Flying Razorback

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2014, 11:47:17 am »

bvillepig,
Thank you for this information.  I may be asking you a lot of questions.  I have had no formal classroom instruction for my written (passed it back in Feb of 2013).  I have to confess I don't know what the 6 T's are, so please fill me in.   I did a quick google search for it and don't find it.  But I can see exactly what you're talking about as far as spending too much time on one instrument and neglecting another, and instantly I bust an altitude or my needle has already crept over close to the edge of the circle. 
My CFII is a great pilot, but sometimes I think he fails to start me at the beginning, kind of throws me in the middle.  He knows how to make the 430 stand on it's head and juggle bowling pins, and when he whizzes through it, I get lost.  I've slowed him down and have been making him let me make the changes to the 430.  It was much better yesterday.  I got another 2 hours duel in, it was horribly windy and rough, but I did better.  Going to a different airport today to shoot a VOR approach without the 430.
Please tell me what the 6 Ts are, that should help me.  More to come.


The 6 T's for me are:  Time, Turn, Time, Transition, Twist, Talk

So for passing an Initial Approach Fix I'll Say:  "Time" and hack the clock for my out burn turn.  "Turn" determine which direction my turn will be if required.  "Time" mark time for either timed approach or timed holding.  "Transition" and change speed to approach speed, landing speed, or change configuration as required.  "Twist" is twist in the new course whether that be a change in course, the inbound course, or whatever.  And "Talk" will be "Initial Approach Fix Outbound" or "Final Approach Fix inbound, gear down" or whatever the required call is.

I know some who use Time, Turn, Throttles, Twist, Track, Talk.  Similar method in order to make sure you do whatever you're required after passing each fix.  That could be an IAF, a FAF, a step down fix, an intermediary fix, or anything in between.  It works great for holding where you're constantly changing things, timing, correcting displacement, and so forth.
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GusMcRae

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2014, 01:52:58 pm »

FlyingRzrbkAF,
My apologies,,,, for some reason I thought both of those first 2 replies were from bvillepig. 
Thank you so much.  I've made some notes on the 2 versions of the 6 T's, and will definitely start using this technique. 
Today will probably be more of a challenge in absense of the 430.

Bvillepig, In regard to the 430 download for practice, it's been a couple of years since I tried getting it, perhaps they updated it to where it works on the later versions.  Thanks for mentioning or I would never have even tried it again. 

I get confused to when it is that I need to punch the little knob on the right as opposed to hitting enter or turning that knob, or the outer knob, or something else.  I'll figure it out the more I program in a flight plan as opposed just using the "direct to" button like I normally do.  That "message" feature is very helpful.  But my CFII is wanting me to work ahead of the 430,,, and when the msg light comes on, he says "you already know what it's going to say, you should have already had that done",,,, and I'm thinking "you may,,,, but I'm not quite that far ahead yet".  I'll get it down eventually. 

Thanks again to both of you. 
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bvillepig

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2014, 07:15:53 pm »

I try to think of the big knob (inner) as chapters.  The little knob is used to turn the page within a certain chapter.

With the big knob all the way to the left you are in the nav section.

Use the little knob to move within that section. Turn the little knob all the way to the left and you have an information page. It is has default settings but by pushing the menu button you can change those settings.  That can come later.

Turn the little knob one turn to the right and you have a map page. Another click to the right and you have another map page or terrain if you are equipped.
The next turn to the right is the frequency page for the airport you are direct to. If you push the little knob in it will highlight the airport, you can take the big knob and highlight the frequency push enter and it will load that frequency to standby. Push the button again and your cursor will disappear.

  At any time you get lost in the 430 you can hold the clr button down and it will take you back to the first page of the nav.

Nearest airport, intersection, Ndb, VOR, etc

 Spin the big knob all the way to the right and you have your nearest chapter.   Airport is first. Again you can push the knob and get a cursor and roll it down through the list. Those two chapters or sections are what I use the most in the beginning.

That instrument is the guts of the 530 and G1000. You will get used to it over time and there are a lot of little tricks that can really help with single pilot IFR.





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GusMcRae

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2014, 08:04:32 am »

Great info.  I appreciate this very much.  These functions are getting more and more familiar.

Yesterday was a very frustrating day.  I was about ready to pull a Donald Trump on my CFII and tell him, "you're fired!"  Again,,,, he assumes I know more than I do.  I will be the first to admit that I am living proof that you can pass the written and still be fairly clueless of how to fly instrument approaches.  I know that some of what I should know in regard to using the VOR, I should have learned better when I got my PP.  However, the C-150 we purchased toward the end of my PP training did not have a VOR, and it was the plane that I took my checkride in.  I just had to explain that I knew how to use it.  And the VOR flying I did do back then in the instructors 150 and 172, was how to navigate using the VOR from home base to an airport about 50 miles away with a VOR station, and no VOR instrument approaches. Haven't really used VOR's since.  I took my written IFR test a year and a half ago.  My lessons for IFR have consisted of an hour or 2 lesson, discover problem with the plane, or CFII too busy to work me in, months go by, take another lesson, months go by, etc...  until this week, when I've gotten a 2-hour lesson 3 days in a row.  I'm rusty to say the least. 
Turned the screens off on the 430 and the 560.  He's very good at humiliating me.  I finally told him that most things that I'm paying someone to teach me to do, typically start with an instruction of how to do it at least once, as opposed to the instructor asking me how to do it and then making me feel stupid because I'm ignorant on the topic.  I'm struggling not to focus on one thing, and I'm busting my altitudes every time I turn around.  And he's quick to tell me "that's a failed checkride", heard that more than I care to remember yesterday.  Made it through the day without slapping each other.  I may need to see if I can learn more from his granddaughter that's a CFII. 
GPS and ILS are way easier than VOR for me.  I'm spoiled to the GPS.  Long way to go.  I need to start flying various instrument apporaches when I'm flying somewhere without the hood. 
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john c

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2014, 02:41:37 pm »

Gee, as important as that is ...  Difference between a tyrant and a teacher. 
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Flying Razorback

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2014, 03:01:47 pm »

Great info.  I appreciate this very much.  These functions are getting more and more familiar.

Yesterday was a very frustrating day.  I was about ready to pull a Donald Trump on my CFII and tell him, "you're fired!"  Again,,,, he assumes I know more than I do.  I will be the first to admit that I am living proof that you can pass the written and still be fairly clueless of how to fly instrument approaches.  I know that some of what I should know in regard to using the VOR, I should have learned better when I got my PP.  However, the C-150 we purchased toward the end of my PP training did not have a VOR, and it was the plane that I took my checkride in.  I just had to explain that I knew how to use it.  And the VOR flying I did do back then in the instructors 150 and 172, was how to navigate using the VOR from home base to an airport about 50 miles away with a VOR station, and no VOR instrument approaches. Haven't really used VOR's since.  I took my written IFR test a year and a half ago.  My lessons for IFR have consisted of an hour or 2 lesson, discover problem with the plane, or CFII too busy to work me in, months go by, take another lesson, months go by, etc...  until this week, when I've gotten a 2-hour lesson 3 days in a row.  I'm rusty to say the least. 
Turned the screens off on the 430 and the 560.  He's very good at humiliating me.  I finally told him that most things that I'm paying someone to teach me to do, typically start with an instruction of how to do it at least once, as opposed to the instructor asking me how to do it and then making me feel stupid because I'm ignorant on the topic.  I'm struggling not to focus on one thing, and I'm busting my altitudes every time I turn around.  And he's quick to tell me "that's a failed checkride", heard that more than I care to remember yesterday.  Made it through the day without slapping each other.  I may need to see if I can learn more from his granddaughter that's a CFII. 
GPS and ILS are way easier than VOR for me.  I'm spoiled to the GPS.  Long way to go.  I need to start flying various instrument apporaches when I'm flying somewhere without the hood. 


I agree on getting out to as many fields to see as many approaches as you can.  That's what we did with our students.  After a while they all start to look the same, which is a good thing.

Trim will never be more important than when you're on an approach.  You have to be able to be fingertips only to keep your instrument cross check going without letting your nose drop or climb by half a dot and leaving you a couple hundred feet.

You really need to get to know your airplane's pitch and power settings for level flight while configured on approach speed.  That way you can have that as a set point and then correct the minor things.

I'm a big control and performance concept flier.  I have my control instruments where I directly control the input.  And then I have my performance instruments where I check the results of my inputs.  I then adjust my control instruments appropriately and refer back to my performance instruments.

For example, my attitude indicator is a control instrument.  I set a pitch, then my performance instrument to cross check my attitude is my VVI.  My control instrument for airspeed is throttle.  I set a throttle setting, then crosscheck my airspeed to see the trend.

IFR training is tough.  It's the most precise flying you'll be asked to do because you cannot ever rely on the seat of your pants.  Seat of your pants gets you killed IFR so you have to have to have to make your instrument procedures extremely mechanical.
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gotyacovered

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2014, 03:23:20 pm »

Gus
I am pretty sure the download on the Garmin web site for the 430s works on XP, up.  I know it works on 7 . The database is pretty outdated so you wont get every approach at every airport but it will help with the button pushes.

 I have over 1800 hours with the 430s so let me know if you have any questions. I will try to help if I can.



he is right, there are also *garmin produced--i think* simulator apps available for the ipad...

i will sticky the thread. i like it.

i am going to hit it hard when mine gets back, also. we may have to call it a race. ;D

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GusMcRae

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2014, 03:20:50 pm »

he is right, there are also *garmin produced--i think* simulator apps available for the ipad...

i will sticky the thread. i like it.

i am going to hit it hard when mine gets back, also. we may have to call it a race. ;D

I'm struggling less with the dialing up the 430 for these instrument approaches, however, if I continue to get lost doing it, I'll look into that app for my iPad to practice.  That would be pretty handy while studying approach plates to flip over to a 430 app and set it up for the approach. 
CFII is tied up for a few days, and I need to fly Friday to go get my youngest son, Sat to go to travel for a father's day/birthday function at my in-laws, Sunday to return home from that, and Monday to take my son back. I was hoping that my CFII could go with me Friday and or Monday and do approaches going both ways. 
So, if he is not available for either of those trips to pick up and drop off my son, I will just plan on shooting some approaches (no foggles) throughout the weekend and Monday trips.   
Lots of opportunities to practice, so I should get a good idea by Monday evening if I've mastered the 430, or if it's time to look into that app. 

Gotya, I've already got a race going with another dude, his name is "the clock",,,, (Feb 2015).  Come on and join in the race as soon as you can.  I'll be a gracious loser to you, but I've got to beat that other dude. 
Seriously, I plan to have this knocked out long before February 2015. 

FlyingRzrbkAF,
Great tips.  Keep them coming.  I need to refine the trimming efforts, as well as getting the proper power inputs for my optimum descent speed. 
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gotyacovered

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2014, 03:30:19 pm »

i am shooting for October... (for full disclosure) ;D

dad and i both will take a week/10 days and get all the dual requirements done, then its all on me to handle the solo requirements and get the test done. i do plan on having the test completed before the dual starts, though. he wont even consider doing it any other way. which is fine... although the gas bill sucks at the end of the 10 days. :ouch:

i bumped into the examiner who gave me my checkride last week at Central, he remembered me b/c i am a 3rd generation pilot and had met my dad a few days after the checkride. he also remember that i told him i would have my IR within 12 months of my PPL and questioned me about it--think he was prob just curious if i went to a diff examiner, though.

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GusMcRae

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2014, 04:27:55 pm »

i am shooting for October... (for full disclosure) ;D

dad and i both will take a week/10 days and get all the dual requirements done, then its all on me to handle the solo requirements and get the test done. i do plan on having the test completed before the dual starts, though. he wont even consider doing it any other way. which is fine... although the gas bill sucks at the end of the 10 days. :ouch:
I hear ya on the fuel.  That's why I was hoping that my CFII could go with me on the trips to go pick up my son and take him back,,, trips I'm already making anyway.  My fuel bill is going to be pretty steep this month with the trip to and from KCLL, lessons this week, about 8 hours this weekend, and hopefully more lessons later next week.  I'm not complaining about getting to fly, just stings a little in the hip pocket.

i bumped into the examiner who gave me my checkride last week at Central, he remembered me b/c i am a 3rd generation pilot and had met my dad a few days after the checkride. he also remember that i told him i would have my IR within 12 months of my PPL and questioned me about it--think he was prob just curious if i went to a diff examiner, though.

Probably so.  I see lots of folks come from a long way away to use the one here, my CFII's wife.  Lubbock, Plainview, Amarillo, San Angelo, etc...
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bvillepig

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2014, 05:03:23 pm »

 Both of you guys go get them and good luck to you.

Then fly in the system as much as you can. Even on beautiful days file and fly. It will keep you on your toes. I have a good friend that went through our private and IFR together. He beat me with the private and I ate his lunch through the instrument. lol

For the last couple of years he rarely filed or flew IFR. He just did't want to mess with the process or the proceedures. He stayed current as far as regs but was also behind the aircraft and ATC any time he did file. Even on good days. I have finally convinced him to start filing on every flight and it has made a bid difference.
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Flying Razorback

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2014, 07:04:11 pm »

Both of you guys go get them and good luck to you.

Then fly in the system as much as you can. Even on beautiful days file and fly. It will keep you on your toes. I have a good friend that went through our private and IFR together. He beat me with the private and I ate his lunch through the instrument. lol

For the last couple of years he rarely filed or flew IFR. He just did't want to mess with the process or the proceedures. He stayed current as far as regs but was also behind the aircraft and ATC any time he did file. Even on good days. I have finally convinced him to start filing on every flight and it has made a bid difference.


You're right, you've got to be on the radio and in the system constantly for it to become second nature.  You don't want to only use it when you "have" to or else the skills fall off dramatically.  You also need to be very clean on the radio and be able to build a big SA picture listening to everyone else on the radio.
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GusMcRae

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2014, 05:00:44 am »

Used the FPLN button instead of the "Direct To" button to set up my 430 for all of my flying over the weekend, which is helping get more familiar. Did some practice approaches on my own. VOR will be my biggest challenge. Getting the 430 set up right is half the battle. CFI was tied up yesterday so no more duel. Maybe this week but will be hot and windy. Typical for Rolling Plains of TX in June.

Good advice from the veteran IFR pilots. I've already decided that I definitely need to use the rating once obtained.  Hear too many pilots say they got the ticket but never used it. What's the point of that?
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gotyacovered

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2014, 08:23:46 am »

Used the FPLN button instead of the "Direct To" button to set up my 430 for all of my flying over the weekend, which is helping get more familiar. Did some practice approaches on my own. VOR will be my biggest challenge. Getting the 430 set up right is half the battle. CFI was tied up yesterday so no more duel. Maybe this week but will be hot and windy. Typical for Rolling Plains of TX in June.

Good advice from the veteran IFR pilots. I've already decided that I definitely need to use the rating once obtained.  Hear too many pilots say they got the ticket but never used it. What's the point of that?

IFR=Cheaper insurance ;D
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GusMcRae

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2014, 12:04:29 pm »

IFR=Cheaper insurance ;D

True.  But this is a lot of time, expense, and effort to obtain something that will be applicable at some point in time if you fly with some sort of regularity,,, to just let it lapse. 
Looks like an insurance company would require currency to get the discount. 
The discount will be an added bonus, but primary reason for me is that it will allow me to take off or land safely at times when it would be illeagal and unsafe to do so if only a VFR pilot. 
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Flying Razorback

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2014, 12:32:55 pm »

True.  But this is a lot of time, expense, and effort to obtain something that will be applicable at some point in time if you fly with some sort of regularity,,, to just let it lapse. 
Looks like an insurance company would require currency to get the discount. 
The discount will be an added bonus, but primary reason for me is that it will allow me to take off or land safely at times when it would be illeagal and unsafe to do so if only a VFR pilot. 


Yes, I think the most important part is the safety of yourself and your passengers.  It's a very dangerous game and I think you learn more about actual operation of the aircraft through IFR than anything else.  I used to just takeoff and fly around when I was a brand new rated private pilot and after I really learned about the system and flying in it I realized how dangerous I was.
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Flying Razorback

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2014, 05:11:52 pm »

Used the FPLN button instead of the "Direct To" button to set up my 430 for all of my flying over the weekend, which is helping get more familiar. Did some practice approaches on my own. VOR will be my biggest challenge. Getting the 430 set up right is half the battle. CFI was tied up yesterday so no more duel. Maybe this week but will be hot and windy. Typical for Rolling Plains of TX in June.

Good advice from the veteran IFR pilots. I've already decided that I definitely need to use the rating once obtained.  Hear too many pilots say they got the ticket but never used it. What's the point of that?


When flying a VOR approach, what are you looking for in your instruments?  Could you type out what your typical progression and thought pattern is?
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GusMcRae

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2014, 08:10:18 am »


When flying a VOR approach, what are you looking for in your instruments?  Could you type out what your typical progression and thought pattern is?
First I set up the 430 with the flightplan to the destination airport, which in turn automatically sets up the VOR frequency in the standby mode, make sure my #1VOR says VLOC and not GPS, (push the CDI button on the 430 to switch it if it's on GPS) and if the inbound heading is 171, then I twist the #1 VOR to put 171 at the top.  I go ahead and manually dial in the VOR frequency on the NAV side of my #2 radio, and twist the #2 VOR to put 351 at the top. 
Being confident in all of this setup described above is part of the problem, it's getting better, but there has been very little explanation or elaboration on the entire setup,,, it's more like,,,, "you should have already had this done,,, do this, this, and this,,,".  We spend no time prepping,,, typically, I taxi up to the terminal, he's just crawled out of another plane, he climbs into my plane and he starts asking questions,,, "do you have the approach plate for XYZ pulled up? Do you have your 430 set up?  Did you study the apporach plate last night?"
And at this point, my head is already spinning because I'm one that needs some instruction first, not questions.  Some instruction would confirm if I'm on the right track, or clue me in that I'm not understanding something.  To be continued,,,,
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 08:45:01 am by GusMcRae »
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GusMcRae

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2014, 08:43:28 am »

continuing,,,,  Take off, put the foggles on.  I've pre-determined a heading to take to intercept the VOR at the destination, when I get close enough I can see my plane come into the approach plate screen on my iPad, I try to use my heading bug to help me roll out on the next heading, I descend to the altitude indicated on the approach plate, needle starts coming in I get on track with the inbound heading, we usually go through the holding pattern, hit the timer and execute a standard rate turn for 1 minute, roll out on the heading, keep the needles lined up, get my power settings adjusted for 120 airspeed, and wait for the VOR to switch from "to" to "from", descend for 2 min 30 seconds (typical time for most VOR approaches for 120 airspeed) looking at my altitude indicator to make sure I don't get below the minimum, at the 2.5 min mark I execute a missed approach. 
I have NOT mastered the 6 T's yet, I have it written down and on my yoke clip and am trying to get in the habit of using this method.     
Ok, that's what I've got in my head sitting here typing.  I'm sure I've left out some stuff out, but please, if you have tips for me, fire away. 
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gotyacovered

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2014, 09:11:46 am »

True.  But this is a lot of time, expense, and effort to obtain something that will be applicable at some point in time if you fly with some sort of regularity,,, to just let it lapse. 
Looks like an insurance company would require currency to get the discount. 
The discount will be an added bonus, but primary reason for me is that it will allow me to take off or land safely at times when it would be illeagal and unsafe to do so if only a VFR pilot. 

Totally agree but you would be surprised how many people get a wet cert bc they bought a high performance complex aircraft and thought insurance was (too) high. It's actually kinda funny... Received a text recently...

Knucklehead: Hey man, buying a BE-55... What do you need for me to get premium info?

Me: hull value, TT, TT M/M, time last 90 & 12, IFR time...

Knucklehead: ok.

***2 months later***

Knucklehead: banks just funded on the BE55, need coverage, picking up today.

Me: ok, need Hull value, TT, TT M/M, time last 90 & 12, IFR time...

(He sends me info)

Couple hours later...

Me: looking at $8500, you hit 100M/M and get your instrument it'll be $3500.

Phone rings... Knucklehead completely freaks out.

And there are bunches of em out there, he spends $200k on an airplane and $8500 freaks him out... Which BTW he woulda known had he given me info prior to purchase.

Point is... He would have eventually gotten IR, I'm sure of it, but he decided to take the accelerated course.
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gotyacovered

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2014, 09:15:16 am »

Gus... You keeping 120kts until you hit the IAF?
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GusMcRae

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2014, 10:59:14 am »

Gus... You keeping 120kts until you hit the IAF?

I'm at normal cruise configuration until after I get on the outbound or inbound heading, then I configure to obtain 120 on my airspeed indicator and try to tighten it up when coming up on the VOR station, then maintaining 120 in my descent all the way down to the decision height.   
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gotyacovered

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2014, 11:15:16 am »

I'm at normal cruise configuration until after I get on the outbound or inbound heading, then I configure to obtain 120 on my airspeed indicator and try to tighten it up when coming up on the VOR station, then maintaining 120 in my descent all the way down to the decision height.   

how fast when stabilized?
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john c

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2014, 12:27:07 pm »

Gus' play by play reminds me of when my B-in-Law decided to improve his golf game while he was playing on one of the mini-tours.  Went to an elite school and came away a few days later with a recommended 20 or so swing changes.  He almost couldn't hit a golf ball for a while.  He might have crashed a golf cart while thinking about it but safer than being in the air, in clouds, in rough clouds, with lightning, with kids,...  Lots of stuff to think about that later becomes so natural.

And that causes me to wonder what kind of personal minimums you will have for an IFR flight. 
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GusMcRae

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2014, 01:47:12 pm »

how fast when stabilized?
Maybe I'm not understanding your question.  My 182 is in mph on the airspeed indicator, so I need to make that correction of what I've said earlier. 120 mph on the airspeed indicator is what my CFII wants me to keep it at for training purposes,,, I typically am fluctuating between 110 (max flaps white arc) and 120, so that I'm close enough to my flaps range when I "break out of the imaginary clouds" I can slow it down just a bit more and put in flaps for the landing. 
I'm at 110-120 mph airspeed, thorugh the inbound heading and descent.

john c,
I'm a long way from being loaded up with any passengers, other than a proficient/current instrument rated pilot, and flying into IMC of any kind.  My idea of personal minimus to start with after getting the rating is just to be able to land or take off when there's an 800 or so foot benign ceiling (no T-storms with lightening popping around), and gradually get more and more comfortable with a lower ceiling.
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gotyacovered

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2014, 02:35:22 pm »

And that causes me to wonder what kind of personal minimums you will have for an IFR flight. 

personal minimums, huh.

i have thought about it quite a few times. i have been right seat about 4 times to minima, and not so say that i will go to legal minimums, b/c i wont (plan on it), but ive had way more uncomfortable situations in the soup straight and level, or just on top (trying to stay out due to turbulence) or ice.

i dont know what they will end up being. but i imagine my first bunch of family travel IFR ops will be MVFR. really look forward to the increased dispatch rates departing into IFR and flying into VFR conditions.

to be specific i am thinking a soft rule will be double published unless viz is really good/no precip and temps above freezing on the surface. i have to think that busting out at pattern altitude is a great feeling.

but i dont know... my VFR into IMC experience left a little to be desried, see below;D

i know the first time i shot an approach (hands on left seat) in actual, in my airplane was into KTKI... we departed outta here (M18) CAVU with a broken layer at 2500ft that appeared to be breaking up being reported in the metroplex. it was NOT breaking up, nor did it... i remember passing thru pattern altitude, 1000, 700, 600 and just about the time we were going to give up and go missed, boom... approach lights, relief... then somewhere in between 500-600... then we flew into light precip, viz sucked... about the time i was reaching my max level of discomfort... the runway appeared.

my immediate goal will be--dont do that ;D
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gotyacovered

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2014, 03:16:17 pm »

Maybe I'm not understanding your question.  My 182 is in mph on the airspeed indicator, so I need to make that correction of what I've said earlier. 120 mph on the airspeed indicator is what my CFII wants me to keep it at for training purposes,,, I typically am fluctuating between 110 (max flaps white arc) and 120, so that I'm close enough to my flaps range when I "break out of the imaginary clouds" I can slow it down just a bit more and put in flaps for the landing. 
I'm at 110-120 mph airspeed, thorugh the inbound heading and descent.

ok, that solves a little bit... i was in kts you were in mph... which is what triggered the question in the first place...

my terminology may be off but when i say stabilized i mean 653 is in landing config before the FAF and on a constant glidepath...

some people know or look for a certain power setting that the 'know' that it produces a specific speed...

dad says: "level approach 14 inches, prop full forward and flaps 10 degrees" which (should) give me 95kts/110mph when level, on approach. when heading downhill, leave throttle alone dump the flaps in... he claims 5 kts for every 10* of flaps. i have yet to make this work, every time. he just comments that my pitch control is sloppy ;D

A LOT of 182 folks land 10* in IFR ops which would be an adjustment for me. faster AND flatter. i need to practice some 20/10 degree flap landings, actually.
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GusMcRae

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2014, 03:41:31 pm »

ok, that solves a little bit... i was in kts you were in mph... which is what triggered the question in the first place...
my terminology may be off but when i say stabilized i mean 653 is in landing config before the FAF and on a constant glidepath...
some people know or look for a certain power setting that the 'know' that it produces a specific speed...
dad says: "level approach 14 inches, prop full forward and flaps 10 degrees" which (should) give me 95kts/110mph when level, on approach. when heading downhill, leave throttle alone dump the flaps in... he claims 5 kts for every 10* of flaps. i have yet to make this work, every time. he just comments that my pitch control is sloppy ;D
A LOT of 182 folks land 10* in IFR ops which would be an adjustment for me. faster AND flatter. i need to practice some 20/10 degree flap landings, actually.
Those numbers make sense, 15" and prop full forward was giving me 120mph.  Maybe I need to ask my CFII if we should try the 10* flaps and be closer to 110 than 120.  He has yet to have me put in flaps, has only stated that I need to be just barely inside flaps range.  Perhaps this is so that we are not droning around so slow while on the clock, potential to get more reps in due to a slightly faster speed.  Not sure.
I seldom land with more than 20* flaps.   
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gotyacovered

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2014, 04:06:00 pm »

Those numbers make sense, 15" and prop full forward was giving me 120mph.  Maybe I need to ask my CFII if we should try the 10* flaps and be closer to 110 than 120.  He has yet to have me put in flaps, has only stated that I need to be just barely inside flaps range.  Perhaps this is so that we are not droning around so slow while on the clock, potential to get more reps in due to a slightly faster speed.  Not sure.
I seldom land with more than 20* flaps.   

i think its they want more speed, i think that is kinda the ways its done now... the 135 med guy i fly with is always 1.2 over what the book says for the applicable 'V' speed....

as long as i am not hung on the prop i am fine with whichever configuration ;D
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GusMcRae

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2014, 08:18:44 am »

i think its they want more speed, i think that is kinda the ways its done now... the 135 med guy i fly with is always 1.2 over what the book says for the applicable 'V' speed....

as long as i am not hung on the prop i am fine with whichever configuration ;D
CFII said the higher airspeed is due to ATC wants/needs you to keep the speed up.  If you're slow, they go to fussing at you. 
Got another 2 hour lesson in Saturday AM.  Sheppard AFB (KSPS) is closed most weekends, and it was Saturday, so we did several ILS approaches on 33 and it's getting better.  Did a GPS approach back at home.  Kickapoo (CWC) traffic was unusually busy for some reason.  We were monitoring Ft Worth center and there was some interesting requests from a Middle Eastern sounding dialect GA pilot wanting to land at Altus AFB, Ft Worth Center ATC (must've been a rookie) initially told him it was ok, until my CFII intervened with a question (intended as a hint),,,, long period of silence before ATC came back on and told him he could not land at Altus AFB,,, told him Quartz Mountain,,, but then the guy wanted to land at KSPS (but it is a civililian airport too, so that was ok).  My CFII said that he probably was only comfortable landing on huge wide runways,,, either that or he was up to no good, scoping the place out or something.  Said he shouldn't have said anything and just let the guy get arrested at Altus.  Hate to be a profiler, but him being so adament about landing at an AFB just sounded odd.

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GusMcRae

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #34 on: June 28, 2014, 06:51:31 am »

Lucked into a trip to KDAL in a C210 and an IFR lesson for the trip home. Things are hopping at KDAL on a Friday afternoon. Great experience.

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Flying Razorback

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #35 on: June 28, 2014, 10:08:40 am »

Wow.  That's some great learning right there.  The radios are good to hear at a place like that.  I've never flown in to KDAL but I flew in and out of  KAFW a lot.
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GusMcRae

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #36 on: July 09, 2014, 08:52:22 am »

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N210AB

Here's the flightaware track of my trip out of KDAL.  See how far they diverted me around the Class Bravo?  CFII said that my lack of confidence on the radio is what prompted the "lets get this guy out of everyone's way" diversion.
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Flying Razorback

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2014, 10:01:19 am »

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N210AB

Here's the flightaware track of my trip out of KDAL.  See how far they diverted me around the Class Bravo?  CFII said that my lack of confidence on the radio is what prompted the "lets get this guy out of everyone's way" diversion.


Yeah, that's a long vector, especially at your speeds.  Just think of it as more hours and confidence building.  It looks like you were flying VFR so maybe if you were on an IFR clearance they would have kept your a little more direct to try to stay a little more within the rules of filing.  They don't like to force an IFR plan "too far" off its course.  Though I've been vectored pretty far before, especially when they forget about you.  That's a guess, it looked like 6500' to me. 

Anyway, that was still a great trip for you I'd say.  Keep it up!
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gotyacovered

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2014, 05:01:34 pm »

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N210AB

Here's the flightaware track of my trip out of KDAL.  See how far they diverted me around the Class Bravo?  CFII said that my lack of confidence on the radio is what prompted the "lets get this guy out of everyone's way" diversion.

haha... or it could be as simple as.... you got the small plane GA treatment. you are C182/G 130ktas. or a combo of both your behavior on the radio and type. it actually happens to me some in the LIT Charlie when they are busy--or it did when i had an airplane anway ;D
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GusMcRae

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #39 on: July 25, 2014, 12:19:35 pm »

After almost a month since my last lesson, I got 2 hours in this AM, flew VOR approaches at KHBR, close to home and likely location of checkride, then back home for a GPS approach.  I'm getting there, but the long breaks from lessons are not helping. 

Trying to pin down a date for the required long 3 leg XC on August 3rd. 
My annual is due in August and I just don't see how I can get it all done before 88R goes in for that, but it's possible.  Trip planned for Labor day weekend so will probably go in for annual immediately following that trip.  Not expecting anything major, but I am planning on going ahead and pulling the 430 out when it does come that time, and send it off for the WAAS upgrade.  Ouch in the seat of the pants.  Fingers crossed for a trouble free annual. 
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GusMcRae

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #40 on: August 04, 2014, 09:02:42 am »


Trying to pin down a date for the required long 3 leg XC on August 3rd. 

CFII and family stayed an extra day in Oshkosh, so I didn't get the 3 leg XC knocked out yesterday,,,, trying to set it up for Sat with different CFII (am trying to coincide with trips to pick up or drop off my son) ,,,, availability of crusty ole CFII not good the next few weeks.  Hoping I will pick up some helpful learning method from a different CFII. 
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GusMcRae

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #41 on: August 11, 2014, 12:35:19 pm »

CFII and family stayed an extra day in Oshkosh, so I didn't get the 3 leg XC knocked out yesterday,,,, trying to set it up for Sat with different CFII (am trying to coincide with trips to pick up or drop off my son) ,,,, availability of crusty ole CFII not good the next few weeks.  Hoping I will pick up some helpful learning method from a different CFII.

I did get the long 3 legged IFR XC knocked out Saturday with a different CFII.  Didn't accomplish much more than that,,, no new learning tips or anything like that,,, just got it checked off the requirement list.
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gotyacovered

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #42 on: August 11, 2014, 01:15:05 pm »

nice... no comment on when im getting mine back... getting to close to jinx it this time ;D
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GusMcRae

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2014, 08:40:55 am »

Finally got together with my CFI for a lesson yesterday, after about 3 months of being down for annual and having to pull a cylinder to repair a bad valve guide, slight delay waiting on 430 WAAS upgrade and re-install, as well as scheduling conflicts with CFI.  I expressed my sense of urgency to get back at it after getting my annual over with and WAAS upgrade done, and after he got through this busy stretch.  If I get put off again by him, I have a back up plan in mind. 
Shot a couple of VOR approaches at CDS and GPS approaches at home base.  The vertical nav capabilities of the WAAS 430 is awesome.  Hope to be training on a regular basis now unitl completion.  Must complete by end of Feb!  I'm feeling a little pressure.   
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GusMcRae

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #44 on: November 13, 2014, 02:11:27 pm »

Another lesson yesterday.  Shot the same VOR approach at CDS, back to the hold, shot it again, then back to home base and shot the GPS once and landed.  The repetition helps.  Going again today,,, not sure if we're going back over the same approaches or somewhere different. 
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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #45 on: November 17, 2014, 11:02:27 am »

Same drill on Thursday, but with very little instruction needed.  Actually had a rare positive compliment from my crusty ole CFI after landing.  He said "I'd say it's going pretty good". 
Didn't get to fly Friday or any over the weekend.  Hopefully will get in some more this week. 
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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #46 on: December 11, 2014, 09:30:44 am »

Another lesson yesterday after right at another month off, due to unavailability of the CFII.  CFII texted me the night before that we would be doing the Localizer at DUC but couldn't start my lesson any earlier then 5:00 PM.  So I studied the hound out of that chart, had notes and highlights all over it, etc...  Went out early to pre-flight and fuel up, practiced setting the radios up on the way to the fuel pump.  He arrives, takes a small break, and we load up.  Tells me to set up radios for the VOR at DUC.  I had not even looked at the VOR plate.  It's dark, my lights in the plane aren't the best.  I pull up the VOR plate on the way over, study it what i can without getting too far off course. There's another plane practicing instrument approaches when we're about 25 miles out, so I announce our intentions and position.  Evidently he left after hearing me.  I botch the first VOR hold, I get flustered, finally make it through a decent approach and another hold, then he gives me a vector, tells me to put it on auto-pilot and set up for localizer.  I set everything up except for toggling up the localizer frequency.  He says "you just failed a checkride".  Then he tells me "you had it down pretty good the other day when we were over here."  And I'm thinking, we've been here but I think it was about a year ago.  So I waited awhile and tell him, "we only went to CDS last month, 3 days in a row, I think it's been about a year since we were over here."  I looked at my logbook this AM and it was March 7, 2013 when we were at DUC.  Going again this evening.  Thinking I need to cut bait with him.  The student he had before my lesson is his priority student now it seems. 
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gotyacovered

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #47 on: December 11, 2014, 03:59:46 pm »

man... i got a lesson today. off of hope (m18) , to springhill(ksph) reported 2000+ ceilings... they were 1200 as we arrived.

we head to mcalester (kmlc) and wx improves all the way, take the visual for 20 with 4000' ceilings. handle biz, have a quick lunch. ceilings were reported 1000+ ovc and 2-3 viz all morn, get back to fbo and check wx, txk was reporting 500ovc 1.75viz. uh oh. we file for m18 alt for txk. ceilings were reported anywhere from 200ovc to 600ovc all the way back... we break out at 2000.

if it woulda been up to FW center we wouldnt have even tried m18... they wanted D->TXK

moral of the story, dont trust those metars too much. we were already trying to figure out which wife was going to come pick us up in texarkana. woulda been a coin flip... sure was nice to see that terra firma ;D
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GusMcRae

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #48 on: December 12, 2014, 09:18:24 am »

Got another 2 hour lesson yesterday, although the 1st hour was pretty much a waste.  Overcast and ceilings had pushed several military and civillian aircraft doing instrument training to DUC, where we were intending to go,,, and where I had studied LOC and VOR plates,,, I was prepared,,, I was ready,,, I was pumped,,, I had this,,, I was gonna nail it today,,,, 
By the time we got 20 miles out, sounded like the military trainers (T-6s) had cleared out, but a Baron that was doing multiple Instrument approaches at DUC and was filed instrument with Ft Sill Approach, according to ATC, and was planning several more.  CFII said he would be running all over us in a Baron.  So we got on with Ft Sill approach and were going to CFII's plan B of shooting approaches with the tower there,,,, ATC comes back and tells us ILS and LOC are inop,,, (which is probably why DUC was so busy) so we abort plan B, and after droning around for an hour shooting ZERO approaches, we head back to FDR and shoot a GPS approach and a hold there, then back to F05, shoot GPS 20, hold, and a GPS 02 and land.  He can't go today, and not sure about the weekend.   
WX has been overcast to mins almost every morning for 10 days or so.  Thus we're flying in the PM.
I was doing better at scanning instruments yesterday, only blew the altitude and slight veer off course a couple of times but recovered without pegging a needle. 
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gotyacovered

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Re: IFR Training
« Reply #49 on: December 12, 2014, 09:48:29 am »

Other than resorting to plan B... Sounds fun!!!

I noticed they re-activated the M18 04/22 VOR IAP yesterday, so that is good news for me! I also noticed mins were lower than for 16 RNAV... they need a WAAS approach!
« Last Edit: December 15, 2014, 04:35:57 pm by gotyacovered »
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