The SEC & Cheating

[Theolesnort]

I'd rather compete in a reduced conference. I don't think we should ever cheat to win. Be good enough to win, or lose.

Admirable, but rather naive.

[OldCoot]

SMU and TCU got hammered because they were....SMU and TCU. "New rich," so to speak.

Alabama, OU, Texas, or Ohio State wins 30 games in three years, well, they're supposed to. Their history says so. Schools like SMU or TCU? Not so much. Raises eyebrows. Threatens the establishment. "They've GOT to be cheating."

And then there is the money factor, as in how much money a team historically brings to the coffers. Ain't nobody trying to kill the golden goose.

If I remember correctly, SMU was a pretty big deal back then.  I've heard there will never be another death penalty because of that.

None of this matters because the handwriting is on the wall and the NCAA will soon cease to exist.

I'd prefer not cheating for everyone because the non-cheaters will lose every time.  You can't tell me you are getting 5 start talent to Tuscaloosa Alabama and Stillwater Oklahoma without cheating.

[cosmodrum]

As soon as a booster went big, we'd get clobbered back to the Mesozoic era.

[Theolesnort]

We've always believed Arkansas is a clean program.  I'll take Arkansas over Auburn any day for that reason alone.

Is Arkansas dirty? Yeah but give Arkansas and Auburn a bath and Arkansas would leave a bathful of dirty water, Auburn would leave a tub full of mud.

[OldCoot]

The only way to stop the cheating as NCAA football stands now is to get the IRS involved, not the bagmen but the players.  They are the ones that lack the experience to keep their rears covered.

If the IRS gets involved then that only hastens the day that we go to either a pay for play or the full ride model.  Pay for play is so inherently slanted that there would be no benefit to the schools which aren't going over the top in cheating.  -the rich would stay rich-

The only other thing (that my overactive mind can dream up) is to identify the worst offenders, bagmen and/or players, and make it a point to, if not ruin their lives, then to make them so miserable that they'd stop on their own volition.   And this would be a dangerous game.

So, without a sea change in the structure of the game, we're left with "don't get mad, get better".

A majority of the players you are talking about already had pretty miserable lives compared to others.  You shouldn't kick people whose only sin is being poor.  You can't punish a poor kid who just wants a small share of everything he will be bringing to the table.  New shoes, food, a tv or computer to watch?  Maybe a ride?  Is that really too much for a 18 year old kid to want?

Boy my opinion on this has sure shifted as I've gotten older.

[WilsonHog]

If I remember correctly, SMU was a pretty big deal back then.  I've heard there will never be another death penalty because of that.

None of this matters because the handwriting is on the wall and the NCAA will soon cease to exist.

I'd prefer not cheating for everyone because the non-cheaters will lose every time.  You can't tell me you are getting 5 start talent to Tuscaloosa Alabama and Stillwater Oklahoma without cheating.

Definitely a big deal. The NCAA representative who announced the Death Penalty fainted before he could leave the room.

It became that way because SMU went from "also ran" to landing Eric Dickerson and Craig James in the same class. Others followed, guys like Jerry Ball and David Richards. The Ponies got hit once...then turned around and did it again. A booster who lied on the record and a disgruntled former player sealed their fate.

[PharmacistHog]

What would prevent a player that was "paid" and didn't make it big from blowing the whistle?  Seems like that would happen eventually.

[GlassofSwine]

The problem is the punishment and what is considered cheating, in effect what the NCAA does is punish fans and players who had no involvement while in most cases the instigators get off relatively easy. I think they should get rid of useless punishments like Bowl Bans. Schools should be forced to enact punishment against the boosters by effectively banning them from any contact with the institution. However, don't take scholarships, etc unless you can prove coaches or administrators knew what was going on. Basically stop punishing the people who aren't guilty and stop punishing players and teams for things as trivial as AJ Green selling a game jersey.

[Inhogswetrust]

The NCAA doesn't want to catch the cheaters if they did they would have investigators with law enforcement backgrounds rather than lawyers.

AND a heck of a lot more of them. The NCAA should have one stationed on EVERY BCS level college campus and NOT employed by the school.

[Inhogswetrust]

Is Arkansas dirty? Yeah but give Arkansas and Auburn a bath and Arkansas would leave a bathful of dirty water, Auburn would leave a tub full of mud.

More like an olympic sized swimming pool size for old barn.

[Inhogswetrust]

Definitely a big deal. The NCAA representative who announced the Death Penalty fainted before he could leave the room.

It became that way because SMU went from "also ran" to landing Eric Dickerson and Craig James in the same class. Others followed, guys like Jerry Ball and David Richards. The Ponies got hit once...then turned around and did it again. A booster who lied on the record and a disgruntled former player sealed their fate.

It didn't help that ADMINS and politicians were involved.

[gmarv]

i know it is everywhere i just don,t understand how you as a booster
ever feel good about the fact in your heart you know your a cheater.
do people really think winning trumps all?

[bphi11ips]

The NCAA either needs to enforce its own rules or dissolve itself.

[bphi11ips]

Mike - given the severe cataracts Slive has developed since he became Commissioner, do you believe he sold you and the other members of the Arkansas media a pig in a poke when he met with you that day in Frank Broyles' meeting room?

[rude1]

If you can't beat um join um. They will never eradicate cheating out of the SEC, there's too much money being made. We need to learn to be more proactive in our efforts to use our resources to catch up with the top of the league.

[bphi11ips]

If you can't beat um join um. They will never eradicate cheating out of the SEC, there's too much money being made. We need to learn to be more proactive in our efforts to use our resources to catch up with the top of the league.

What do you suggest are "our resources"?

[wachhog]

UNC has lost the respect of at least half the state. It is made even worse since the nation's oldest public university was considered to be a public school with almost Ivy League status.  Then  there is the embarrassing racial overtone since the academic fraud appears to have occurred almost solely in the Afro studies department. They have trotted out everyone from a former governor on at great expense but to no avail.
It ain't over on the hill with a chapel.  The ramifications are far greater than the tainting of a basketball program.

[rude1]

The NCAA doesn't want to catch the cheaters if they did they would have investigators with law enforcement backgrounds rather than lawyers.

The problem with the NCAA is they don't have the power of subpoena. They can't force anyone to talk. Show up at my door, I tell you to go to hell and shut the door in your face. The only time someone gets caught is when someone feels like they got cheated and voluntarily spills the beans. 

[snoblind]

Thanks, Chitwn

[Mike Irwin]

Mike - given the severe cataracts Slive has developed since he became Commissioner, do you believe he sold you and the other members of the Arkansas media a pig in a poke when he met with you that day in Frank Broyles' meeting room?

Sure, although it's not like we pressed him on the subject of cheating. As I said, he brought it up. My impression at the time was that he was an academic pinhead trying to make himself look politically correct.

I guess that's still my impression of him. He ain't no Roy Kramer (who actually coached football).

[GlassofSwine]

Sure, although it's not like we pressed him on the subject of cheating. As I said, he brought it up. My impression at the time was that he was an academic pinhead trying to make himself look politically correct.

I guess that's still my impression of him. He ain't no Roy Kramer (who actually coached football).

There just idealist politicians catering to what sounds good. Once you get in office and you are confronted with the reality that enforcing harsh punishment on your conference will probably wipe out all the schools playing you realize that catering to the status quo is better than being known for destroying a conference you are in charge of.

  IMO..The NCAA is the joke, the punishment and the rulebook they use to dole out said punishment has no standard.

[MrThunderhog]

If it takes bags of cash and Escalades to compete for an SEC and National Championship then we need to get with the program and ramp up our system to a BAMA or Auburn level.

If we want to compete its not really an option. Either do what it takes to compete with big boys or shoot for 4th best in the west every year.

[Theolesnort]

Sure, although it's not like we pressed him on the subject of cheating. As I said, he brought it up. My impression at the time was that he was an academic pinhead trying to make himself look politically correct.

I guess that's still my impression of him. He ain't no Roy Kramer (who actually coached football).

Going in I'm sure he had the best of intentions, after reality set in he became more pragmatic. Not only was he a lawyer but was he not a setting judge at one time?

[Dumb ole famrboy]

Because you asked, I vote neither.  College athletics has no place in the university system.  Sport has no place in the primary education system either.

Competitive sport should be completely separate from education.  Decouple.

But if I had to pick a side, I'm a moralist.  I'd rather lose and be straight than win by cheating.

I am of the opinion that Sports is just a valid career path as Accounting, Engineering or any other profession taught in the college systems. And whether the eggheads want to recognize it or not - education is a significant aspect of excelling in any sport. Raw athletic ability very seldom is enough to make a sport your profession. Just as a high IQ is very seldom enough, without a formal education, to establish a profession.

[Torqued pork]

With athletics departments spending tons trying not to be left behind in the facilities race and with many coaches locked into mega-contracts and still always looking to leverage for more, offering players some extra incentives doesn't bother me at all.

[chitwnhog]

The problem with the NCAA is they don't have the power of subpoena. They can't force anyone to talk. Show up at my door, I tell you to go to hell and shut the door in your face. The only time someone gets caught is when someone feels like they got cheated and voluntarily spills the beans. 

Absolutely true, and as far as I am concerned the NCAA  needs to shut up and accept that they are a toothless tiger and allow things to run off the rails to the point that the Guv'mt gets involved.

[chitwnhog]

Thanks, Chitwn

Welcome.

[DEVICEHIGH]

Wow. "Arkansas should be a more competitive cheater" is the clear leader. This surprises me.

[chitwnhog]

Wow. "Arkansas should be a more competitive cheater" is the clear leader. This surprises me.

I think many on here are tired of trying to "do the right thing" as they perceive the UA to be a "clean" program. I don't necessarily think we are "clean" I just don't think we cheat on the level that some in the SEC do.

[Mike Irwin]

Wow. "Arkansas should be a more competitive cheater" is the clear leader. This surprises me.

What's interesting is the two extremes. The vast majority voting are either idealists (throw the book at all cheaters) or bottom liners (we need to become better cheaters). There's not much middle ground (which is not surprising).

[Fatty McGee]

The cheating will stop when the schools want it to stop.  The NCAA is just an extension of the schools, and only has the power they give it.

People think it's some naturally independent institution.  It's not. 

[PorkSoda]

The cheating will stop when the schools want it to stop.  The NCAA is just an extension of the schools, and only has the power they give it.

People think it's some naturally independent institution.  It's not. 

Yeah, I think people forget that sometimes

[JansterZ71]

I know first hand the Auburn boosters and Staff were extremely nervous over the NCAA poking their heads around campus after Cam, most nervous was one many here thinks is "above that type of stuff".

Now Auburn is flaunting it, they have on staff the guy who discovered the violations of Pearl at Tennessee and to top it off they then hire Pearl at the tail end of his show-cause.

They and others have been saying to the NCAA, "yeah, but what are you going to do?", there is too much $$$ at stake for the NCAA to call their bluff.

Sorry, but your full of crap.

[Hogwild]

Not only will there never be another death penalty (for a major sport), but I doubt if we see a TV ban in a major sport again. That used to be pretty common, a school would lose its TV games and TV revenue. Offhand, I can't remember the last time that was handed down. Maybe in the early-90s to Ole Miss?

But with the number of TV contracts that must be fulfilled, they can't ban a school from TV any longer without taking a hit in the wallet. And the last thing the NCAA will do is sacrifice a dime.

It happened to A&M in the late 80s/early 90s.  They stop the practice not because of NCAA losing out on funds, but it was hurting the other teams fans.  A&M gets a TV ban,  and then play a home game, who is the biggest loser- their opponents fans.  Because they  don't get to see their team play.

[hawgbawb]

Maybe if the NCAA allowed players to be paid a standard salary for D1, in addition to schollies, it would make a diff.

Schollies only gives an advantage to private schools with high tuition. Unpaid mixed with huge sums of money at stake to institutions and coaching staffs is a recipe for cheating. 

And does anyone really think he NCAA is even-handed or unbiased?

[Hogwild]

Yes, the "hurts the opposing team" was a reason given for ending it. But I suspect other rea$on$ were just as important to the NCAA.

But the NCAA doesn't receive any money from the football TV contracts, they are done with the conferences.  If the A&M/Arkansas game in blacked out, they would just put on LSU/Ole Miss, the conferences are still getting paid.

[chitwnhog]

Sorry, but your full of crap.

Actually, he is not.

[Sir Oinksalot]

Mike, this has taken you to the next level for the courage to address the "dead elephant" on the table.....you could
be the point of the spear and take this onto the national scene...

I of course offer my congratulations.......

ahhh Arkansas is like that virgin who goes to college and begins to see a whole different world......

Arkansas is in a different situation...we don't have the 50-100 multi-millionaires willing to get into this game
for their school, we have 3-5 gazillionaires yes, but they are only interested in getting their names on really
big buildings up there and in having high tea with their equals...

We are less than amateurs in this game....we were created in the clean image of FB, and, will just have to do it
another way...

[Rzbakfromwaybak]

I am against the cheating to win.......& for the enforcement of the rules across the board.  If the NCAA won't enforce the rules equally.....do away with the NCAA & replace them with a organization that will.  Whatever the organization is.....they need to really be held accountable for the fair enforcement of rules.  If the organization is found not enforcing & investigating fairly.....they would receive no money. If the rules are actually enforced fairly & equally, investigations carried out legit.....the cheating will decrease to a minimum.  Schools will be forced to comply. The SEC will end up still being strong... & the competition will be as it should.....on a more level playing field. 

[Rzbakfromwaybak]

I am against the cheating to win.......& for the enforcement of the rules across the board.  If the NCAA won't enforce the rules equally.....do away with the NCAA & replace them with a organization that will.  Whatever the organization is.....they need to really be held accountable for the fair enforcement of rules.  If the organization is found not enforcing & investigating fairly.....they would receive no money. If the rules are actually enforced fairly & equally, investigations carried out legit.....the cheating will decrease to a minimum.  Schools will be forced to comply. The SEC will end up still being strong... & the competition will be as it should.....on a more level playing field. 

[Sir Oinksalot]

I am against the cheating to win.......& for the enforcement of the rules across the board.  If the NCAA won't enforce the rules equally.....do away with the NCAA & replace them with a organization that will.  Whatever the organization is.....they need to really be held accountable for the fair enforcement of rules.  If the organization is found not enforcing & investigating fairly.....they would receive no money. If the rules are actually enforced fairly & equally, investigations carried out legit.....the cheating will decrease to a minimum.  Schools will be forced to comply. The SEC will end up still being strong... & the competition will be as it should.....on a more level playing field.

...it's naive to believe this fantasy land will ever exist...if you are Arkansas you must distance yourself from a room full of filth and

stinking beer cans.......no, we will win or not but if we win it won't be by a perversion of human beings...

[redeye]

This question shouldn't even need to be asked.  When educational institutions allow cheating, what does it say about the integrity of those institutions?  And who here actually wants to see Arkansas lose more games, all because our opponents are better cheaters?  I'm sure we've benefited some from the SEC national championship streak, but we don't have a national championship (maybe we would have 2010, had Auburn not cheated) and I take no pride in what our SEC foes have accomplished.

Why even have rules if they're not enforced?  If cheating destroys the SEC, then so be it.  When the NCAA starts handing out death penalties left and right, I bet we'll finally see a significant drop in cheating.  SMU got what it deserved and the only unfair thing is that others have gotten away with similar levels of cheating.  If I'm a SMU fan, I'm pissed that other schools were only given slaps on the hand.

[redeye]

The cheating will stop when the schools want it to stop.  The NCAA is just an extension of the schools, and only has the power they give it.

People think it's some naturally independent institution.  It's not.

Yes and that just makes it so much more disgraceful.

[redeye]

I guess when you say cheating you are talking in terms of recruiting mostly.  There are so many different areas in college athletics that could be influenced by "cheating". Among them are-

Paying or enticing recruits with financial gain
Paying or financially helping players
Helping atheletes to keep grades - i.e. giving grades for little or no effort
Finding ways for poor academic performers to qualify and stay eligible and the list goes on.

Which type of "cheating" are you saying is most prevalent in the SEC?
Isn't this the exact reason the kids really aren't student athletes but more akin to members of a farm system for professional sports?

I may be wrong, but I believe Mike would disagree that they're not student athletes.  He's made that clear in this thread and others.

As for your question, it doesn't matter which kind.  Cheating is cheating.  If you're looking for an excuse to justify it, then you shouldn't be.

[Dumb ole famrboy]

College football has always been corrupt. Anybody recognize the following movie monologue?

"I've been kicked out of the Big Ten, the Ivy League, and the Southern Conference. They wouldn't even let me coach at Alcatraz...Oh, it's a fine game, football. Noble game. Originated in England in 1823 by an enterprising young man named William Webb Ellis who studied for the ministry, by the way. He found his team behind in a soccer game, so he picked up the ball...and ran through the amazed opponents for a thoroughly illegal touchdown. And that's how football was born. Illegitimately. So it moved to America where someone took advantage of a loophole in the rules and invented a little formation called the flying wedge.

So many young men were maimed and killed by this clever maneuver that President Roosevelt, Theodore Roosevelt, had to call the colleges together and ask them to make the game less brutal. He was, of course, defeated in the next election. In spite of this setback, football became an industry. Price of a good running back often surpasses the salary of a professor. And when some righteous committee unearthed this well-known fact, it was always the coach who took it on the chin. I just got tired of picking myself up."

1953 - TROUBLE ALONG THE WAY -starring John Wayne.

Ever wonder why the NCAA rules covering elgibility are so vast and convoluted. It is because they are a compilation of reactionary measures addressing specific incidents of what was defined after the fact as cheating over the last 107 years.

It seems everyone wants to return to the good old days of college sports before being corrupted by the vast sums of TV money. Only problem is those days have never existed.

[MountieDawg]

Calling someone a cheater with no evidence, only calling them a cheater because they get better talent is mis-guided. The year Arkansas made it to the Sugar Bowl how did the do it? How did they get Joe Adams and Ryan Mallett who weren't coming to Arkansas???

[jkstock04]

I am against the cheating to win.......& for the enforcement of the rules across the board.  If the NCAA won't enforce the rules equally.....do away with the NCAA & replace them with a organization that will.  Whatever the organization is.....they need to really be held accountable for the fair enforcement of rules.  If the organization is found not enforcing & investigating fairly.....they would receive no money. If the rules are actually enforced fairly & equally, investigations carried out legit.....the cheating will decrease to a minimum.  Schools will be forced to comply. The SEC will end up still being strong... & the competition will be as it should.....on a more level playing field. 

Who is gonna "do away with the NCAA?" That is pure fantasy.

I would like to know the correlation between folks hell bent on staying put in the SEC but strongly against cheating. Lol the proverb have your cake and eat it too comes to mind.

[Mike Irwin]

Calling someone a cheater with no evidence, only calling them a cheater because they get better talent is mis-guided. The year Arkansas made it to the Sugar Bowl how did the do it? How did they get Joe Adams and Ryan Mallett who weren't coming to Arkansas???

Not quite sure where you're coming from with that but if you google search Albert Means or Cam Newton I think you will get a pretty clear idea of how cheating goes down in the SEC. It won't be as interesting but you could also check out the name Ted Harrod.

I've slept a few times since those individuals where making headlines but as I recall Means' HS coach was asking $200,000 for himself (I think he only got $150,00).

Newton's dad was asking for a less ambitious $120,000-$180,000 maybe because, as he said, he only wanted enough money to make repairs to the church building where he preached.

As for Harrod, he allowed 15-20 Razorback players to get paid for work they did not perform. It amounted to around $200 per player, hence my claim that when a Razorback booster gets caught he turns out to be a wimpy cheater.

[The Marmot]

For all of this to be true, it would mean most of the major recruits are either on the take or they refuse to blow the whistle on those who approach them since we rarely hear any recruits publicly state anything about illegitimate offers.

I'd say the recruits are the staunchest supporters of cheating.

[DeltaBoy]

Harrod was in the PEOPLE HELPING BUSINESS!