The SEC & Cheating

[Mike Irwin]

Many years ago the Hog media was ushered into Frank Broyles meeting room just outside his main office. Mike Slive had just been hired at the SEC's new commissioner and we were going to meet with him for the first time.

I remember vividly that without any questions from us he launched into a rambling statement wherein he claimed his first priority was to stop the cheating in the SEC.

Well, if that was his number one goal he's a failure.

My question is, do you really want the cheating to be cleaned up?

The NCAA took a crack at the old SWC in the late 80's. They nailed SMU's hide to the wall and TCU took it on the chin pretty good too.  A few years later the conference was in shambles.

I was stationed in SE Alabama when I was in the military back in the early 70's. I used to listen to Auburn and Alabama fans trying to out brag each other over which school was the best at cheating.

To my impartial ears, based on the various claims, it was Alabama hands down.

The times that Arkansas has beaten Alabama in football has dovetailed with probation or the effects of it. If the playing field was not leveled because of NCAA sanctions Arkansas has not stood much of a chance.

I have said before, I'm convinced that the great majority of shady deals never involve a coaching staff. Creative boosters pull kids to Alabama (and a few other conference schools) without the coaches ever having to know.

Can these people be caught? Of course. But Alabama and Auburn would go down. Several other schools would be affected negatively.

Arkansas would come out of it fine because its boosters are lightweights in the cheating game.

So the playing field would be leveled but the SEC would not continue to win national titles in five or six year stretches.

So which is it? Would you rather to continue down the same road or have a better chance to compete in a reduced conference?

[nextlevel]

I know first hand the Auburn boosters and Staff were extremely nervous over the NCAA poking their heads around campus after Cam, most nervous was one many here thinks is "above that type of stuff".

Now Auburn is flaunting it, they have on staff the guy who discovered the violations of Pearl at Tennessee and to top it off they then hire Pearl at the tail end of his show-cause.

They and others have been saying to the NCAA, "yeah, but what are you going to do?", there is too much $$$ at stake for the NCAA to call their bluff.

[Wildhog]

I want us to ramp up our cheating to levels only known by elite programs.

[Kevin]

great question, i wish ncaa enforcement looked at everyone equally.  but, the brand of the school matters.

unc got away academic fraud threw out the athletic department, but football was only program affected. never touch basketball.

i would say stay status quo.

[bphi11ips]

Given the source, this is the most disturbing topic I've seen here in some time. 

Thanks for sharing.

[Calling All Hogs]

For all of this to be true, it would mean most of the major recruits are either on the take or they refuse to blow the whistle on those who approach them since we rarely hear any recruits publicly state anything about illegitimate offers.

[wupigsuey]

I'd rather compete in a reduced conference. I don't think we should ever cheat to win. Be good enough to win, or lose.

[MJ2]

I guess when you say cheating you are talking in terms of recruiting mostly.  There are so many different areas in college athletics that could be influenced by "cheating". Among them are-

Paying or enticing recruits with financial gain
Paying or financially helping players
Helping atheletes to keep grades - i.e. giving grades for little or no effort
Finding ways for poor academic performers to qualify and stay eligible and the list goes on.

Which type of "cheating" are you saying is most prevalent in the SEC?
Isn't this the exact reason the kids really aren't student athletes but more akin to members of a farm system for professional sports?

[Wildhog]

It's all about the talent.

[Hog Fan...DOH!]

Really interesting topic. 

Look at all the competition and major football schools in the Southeast.  Bama, Auburn, Clemson, FSU, UF, UGA, USC-E, Clemson, Tennessee...  all of those schools are within a relatively close radius.  And to a great athlete, you can go to any major program in America and prove yourself.  Does it really matter where you play?  No.  If you're good enough, you'll get drafted regardless of which campus you choose. 

But which campus will make you the most... comfortable?  And which metro areas do alumni from those schools go to work?  Atlanta, Memphis, Birmingham, Jacksonville, etc.  Cities that are talent rich, notorious for cheating, or ripe for alumni competition. 

As that relates to Arkansas, there isn't any competition within the state's borders.  Arkansas's historic recruiting battleground was East Texas and Dallas. Arkansas's major secondary alum base is Dallas.  I'm sure Ted Harrod had something to do with keeping kids in nice shoes.  He can't do that anymore.  From what came out of that recent article, he was too high profile anyway.  And as I recall, when the truth finally came out, he wasn't "overpaying" by very much at all anyway.

But to answer Mike question... does it matter?  Do I really want it to stop?  Ideally, yes.  But it never will.  And quite frankly, if a kid needs a few hundred bucks every now and then, I could care less.

[nextlevel]

For all of this to be true, it would mean most of the major recruits are either on the take or they refuse to blow the whistle on those who approach them since we rarely hear any recruits publicly state anything about illegitimate offers.

An aTm TE last year made an allegation of another SEC team offering pay to play, while he did not name that team publicly, LSU was the only other SEC team recruiting him...

[chitwnhog]

If ya ain't cheatin' ya ain't tryin'.  This seems to be the attitude of many of the teams we play against. I have a friend in Foley,AL according to him Julio Jones committed to Bama and was driving an Escalade the next day. Darren McFadden arguably one of the biggest recruits we have had in a while...the next day he was still driving his hoop'd. This is the reality of the SEC and the reality is that we suck at cheating.

[DeltaBoy]

It had been going on for years.  From HS through College.  I had a Cousin who is my Dads age who got performance  bonuses in his campus mail box on Monday Mornings. He played at ASU in the early 1960's.
In the 1950's in West Texas  Shell, Mobil and others were giving jobs, homes, Kitchen appliances etc to Parents to get Johnny Stud on their Oil Town HS Teams.
In my own HS days My Parents were offered a Scholarship for me to come play at a local private school but I would have to play Basketball and run track on top of Football.  We did not take it but it happens.

[nextlevel]

If ya ain't cheatin' ya ain't tryin'.  This seems to be the attitude of many of the teams we play against. I have a friend in Foley,AL according to him Julio Jones committed to Bama and was driving an Escalade the next day. Darren McFadden arguably one of the biggest recruits we have had in a while...the next day he was still driving his hoop'd. This is the reality of the SEC and the reality is that we suck at cheating.

You want to talk about reality:

The Bama players all drive newer cars, all leased from the same dealership "umbrella", all payed via pell grants.

DMAC's car did not look like that until he took a summer job for a booster and had free work/parts provided by another booster(s).

[forrest city joe]

Mike in this day and age, the NCAA will not dare touch Saban and Bama. and Saban knows it. he just did an in your face to the NCAA by hiring Tosh Lupoi as a so call intern. this guy is as dirty as it get's.Arkansas could never get away with hiring this guy. Saban and Bama have been caught red-handed time after time, and nothing has been done.here are just a few. D.J. fluker.    http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-dr-saturday/former-alabama-offensive-lineman-d-j-fluker-tweets-134028944--ncaaf.html

Clinton Dix.    http://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/2013/alabama-coach-haha-clinton-dix/

http://tracking.si.com/2013/01/30/alabama-players-swats-deer-antler-spray-college-football/

Trent Richardson.    http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/07/22/bama-looks-into-potential-extra-benefits-for-trent-richardson-gives-the-all-clear/

http://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/2012/nick-saban-accused-of-cheating/
All these things have come up in just the last few years.(im sure i missed some) yet you have heard nothing from the NCAA. they will never touch Saban and Bama again.
so to answer your question. No i do not want to continue down the same road. it is not fun being a doormat.it will never happen because of the money. but i want the Hogs to have a chance to win championships. and looks like it will never happen as long as we are in this crook SEC. it makes me sick.Bama buys the best players every freaking year. and get's away with it.

[secneahog]

It's all about the talent.

You can win without cheating. Your boy bobby petrino showed us that.

Bielema won big at Wisconsin without cheating. It can be done, people just have to be patient.

Ole piss has been cheating big but they still haven't gotten close to winning big.

[forrest city joe]

great question, i wish ncaa enforcement looked at everyone equally.  but, the brand of the school matters.

unc got away academic fraud threw out the athletic department, but football was only program affected. never touch basketball.

i would say stay status quo.

This post is spot on. UNC basketball scandal is the most under reported stories ever. and the NCAA did nothing about it. the same NCAA that attacked Nolan's program, and started the decline in Razorback basketball.we Hawgball has never recovered.

[trashcan maN]

Can't support an institution of higher learning showing young men that cheating to get ahead is acceptable and encouraged.

Call me an idealist..

[chitwnhog]

You want to talk about reality:

The Bama players all drive newer cars, all leased from the same dealership "umbrella", all payed via pell grants.

DMAC's car did not look like that until he took a summer job for a booster and had free work/parts provided by another booster(s).

My point exactly. We suck at cheating. Bama=New Cars on Signing Day   UA=We Can Help Ya Get A Hoop'd. Please understand I am not advocating cheating however the deck will forever be stacked against us if we don't.

[bphi11ips]

We've always believed Arkansas is a clean program.  I'll take Arkansas over Auburn any day for that reason alone.

[forrest city joe]

You can win without cheating. Your boy bobby petrino showed us that.

Bielema won big at Wisconsin without cheating. It can be done, people just have to be patient.

Ole piss has been cheating big but they still haven't gotten close to winning big.

Ole Miss is not cheating any more than Bama.and if they keep getting classes like they have the last 2 years. don't be shocked if they do win an SEC championship.as for what Bobby did here. everyone on this forum know i love me some Bobby. i think he's the best college football coach in the country.but even his teams could not overcome the talent Saban had at Bama.Bobby did not lose 4 years in a row because of coaching. he lost because Bama had an overwhelming talent advantage.i love Bobby, but he did not win the SEC. we have never won it. and we have been in the SEC over 20 years.

[WilsonHog]

SMU and TCU got hammered because they were....SMU and TCU. "New rich," so to speak.

Alabama, OU, Texas, or Ohio State wins 30 games in three years, well, they're supposed to. Their history says so. Schools like SMU or TCU? Not so much. Raises eyebrows. Threatens the establishment. "They've GOT to be cheating."

And then there is the money factor, as in how much money a team historically brings to the coffers. Ain't nobody trying to kill the golden goose.

[Henry Hogsome]

I am for level playing field. Cheating has no place in college sports or the pros for that matter.

[secneahog]

Ole Miss is not cheating any more than Bama.and if they keep getting classes like they have the last 2 years. don't be shocked if they do win an SEC championship.as for what Bobby did here. everyone on this forum know i love me some Bobby. i think he's the best college football coach in the country.but even his teams could not overcome the talent Saban had at Bama.Bobby did not lose 4 years in a row because of coaching. he lost because Bama had an overwhelming talent advantage.i love Bobby, but he did not win the SEC. we have never won it. and we have been in the SEC over 20 years.

Nutt won the west 3 times... And if BP wasn't egotistical and chose recruiting over texting he probably could have beaten Saban.

[secneahog]

Ole Miss is not cheating any more than Bama.and if they keep getting classes like they have the last 2 years. don't be shocked if they do win an SEC championship.as for what Bobby did here. everyone on this forum know i love me some Bobby. i think he's the best college football coach in the country.but even his teams could not overcome the talent Saban had at Bama.Bobby did not lose 4 years in a row because of coaching. he lost because Bama had an overwhelming talent advantage.i love Bobby, but he did not win the SEC. we have never won it. and we have been in the SEC over 20 years.

Also don't take away coaching ability. Freeze can't hold Sabans jock strap in that department. You recruit gangsters you will win some games but mark my words...freeze will never win the sec.

[Cotton]

Grandpa always told me,

"Son... If you ain't cheatin, you ain't tryin."

[DeltaBoy]

       

[WilsonHog]

Do I think we could cheat to win in the SEC?

Sure.

Do I think we could get away with it?

Not in a million years.

[PygmalionEffect]

I think a lot of it is free gifts, services performed for free, small cash amounts, and I think boosters/fans from every school in Div 1 do it.  Not enough in and of itself to be the sole determiner in where a recruit will sign.

I just think that if ten's of thousands of dollars were going into thousands of kids hands each year that it couldn't be effectively covered up.

Now the cars..... that is something that is so obvious that it does take on the look of a vast conspiracy involving the schools, the NCAA, the fans, and the media.

A conspiracy that successful involving that many separate entities doesn't seem believable, so I assume there is some type of legal loophole that allows these players to get these cars without it being a clear violation, possibly multiple loopholes.

That's how you do things when you need to provide the perception of rules and accountability, you just make the rules easy to circumvent.  The NCAA is the master at creating false perceptions for public consumption.  It's not just something they're great at, it's who they are.

[chitwnhog]

SMU and TCU got hammered because they were....SMU and TCU. "New rich," so to speak.

Alabama, OU, Texas, or Ohio State wins 30 games in three years, well, they're supposed to. Their history says so. Schools like SMU or TCU? Not so much. Raises eyebrows. Threatens the establishment. "They've GOT to be cheating."

And then there is the money factor, as in how much money a team historically brings to the coffers. Ain't nobody trying to kill the golden goose.

It is very much what Jerry Tarkanian said of the NCAA. "The NCAA is so mad at Kentucky, it will probably slap another two years of probation on Cleveland State."

The NCAA turns a blind eye to the powerful and will eviscerate the weak sisters with impunity.

[rmcchris]

Good questions Mike.  Go look at the bagman article that was posted in another thread.  Not sure if it is true but if half of it is then your logic and questions make a lot of sense.

[snoblind]

We've always believed Arkansas is a clean program.  I'll take Arkansas over Auburn any day for that reason alone.

Meh.  Arkansas, to my knowledge, has never reached the level of an Auburn.  But I have personal knowledge of things that happened at Arkansas back in the day that was "cheating".  One can argue that in those days everyone did it.

To OP's original question, my personal choice is level playing field.  Don't care if it means less championships for the SEC.

[Dr. Kenneth Noisewater]

I think a lot of it is free gifts, services performed for free, small cash amounts, and I think boosters/fans from every school in Div 1 do it.  Not enough in and of itself to be the sole determiner in where a recruit will sign.

I just think that if ten's of thousands of dollars were going into thousands of kids hands each year that it couldn't be effectively covered up.

Now the cars..... that is something that is so obvious that it does take on the look of a vast conspiracy involving the schools, the NCAA, the fans, and the media.

A conspiracy that successful involving that many separate entities doesn't seem believable, so I assume there is some type of legal loophole that allows these players to get these cars without it being a clear violation, possibly multiple loopholes.

If you haven't read the Bag man article it pretty much explains it is a huge network of small cash transactions.  And it explains the car thing too. Its great insight.

[snoblind]

If you haven't read the Bag man article it pretty much explains it is a huge network of small cash transactions.  And it explains the car thing too. Its great insight.

You recall which thread that is in?

[chitwnhog]

You recall which thread that is in?

http://www.hogville.net/yabbse/index.php?topic=566166.0;topicseen

[Inhogswetrust]

If you haven't read the Bag man article it pretty much explains it is a huge network of small cash transactions.  And it explains the car thing too. Its great insight.

Sean Tuohy said on Memphis radio one time if they wanted to catch the cheaters put an NCAA undercover rep in the parking lot of ALL colleges. He was referring to look where a player came from and see what kind of car they are driving and follow the money.

[PorkSoda]

For all of this to be true, it would mean most of the major recruits are either on the take or they refuse to blow the whistle on those who approach them since we rarely hear any recruits publicly state anything about illegitimate offers.

they would become ineligible if they did that.  might as well shoot their career in the foot.

[jkstock04]

The bagman article was a real eye opener to me. I now firmly believe recruiting is an absolute joke if we are speaking in terms of blue chip players. Everyone is excited about our new director of recruiting (or whatever his title is) but it's laughable to me in light of what is really going on behind closed doors with recruiting.

For myself? What would I want to see the Razorback program do? I wanna win...we are in the SEC and if that's how you compete with the Alabamas of the world I say 'When in Rome'. I'm not one of these guys who can watch the Hogs get blown out by 50 points and after the game say "ya but at least we aren't cheating!! If that's what it takes to win I would rather keep losing in embarrassing fashion." I know a lot of y'all take that stance but not me...what I have learned in life is there are winners and losers...and it absolutely sucks to be on the losing side.

BUT, and this is a big but...I would all but guarantee the NCAA would nail our ass to the wall SMU style if we started getting weird like these other schools do. It's almost like the NCAA and SEC need teams like Alabama to be powerhouses. Arkansas? That's not who we are supposed to be.

So really it's a lose situation for us in the long term, they ain't gonna let us get away with the Auburn or Alabama antics. Whatever Alabama is doing...they are masters at it. I get (from reading the bagman article) how sneaky these guys are moving money around and such. But what about these kids' mouths? I just don't see how all these recruits/players keep their mouths shut about this stuff so well.

[Auburn]

Because you asked, I vote neither.  College athletics has no place in the university system.  Sport has no place in the primary education system either.

Competitive sport should be completely separate from education.  Decouple.

But if I had to pick a side, I'm a moralist.  I'd rather lose and be straight than win by cheating.

[chitwnhog]

Sean Tuohy said on Memphis radio one time if they wanted to catch the cheaters put an NCAA undercover rep in the parking lot of ALL colleges. He was referring to look where a player came from and see what kind of car they are driving and follow the money.

The NCAA doesn't want to catch the cheaters if they did they would have investigators with law enforcement backgrounds rather than lawyers.

[trashcan maN]

Because you asked, I vote neither.  College athletics has no place in the university system.  Sport has no place in the primary education system either.

Competitive sport should be completely separate from education.  Decouple.

But if I had to pick a side, I'm a moralist.  I'd rather lose and be straight than win by cheating.

Love your post; hate your name. +1

This is the conundrum of being a fan of a college sports team as a grown man - I want my team to win, but I also want the kids that choose to be Razorbacks to have enough integrity to do things the right way and be mentored by the coaches and older players to see that you don't have to cheat to succeed in life. I don't want my university to break rules. I think by setting this precedent, you're setting these kids up for failure early in life.

It takes longer to build this culture, but you CAN win without cheating. Can we win a national championship? Who knows..I don't really care. I'll take sustained success with integrity over a vacated natty.

[bphi11ips]

College athletics has no place in the university system.  Sport has no place in the primary education system either.

I completely disagree.  Human beings grow and develop continuously through the age of 22.  Athletics and academics together develop well-rounded people.  This is nothing new. 

Competitive Professional sport should be completely separate from education. 

Agreed.

[gmarv]

if it takes cheating to win you ain,t really a winner
stand in all the winners circles you want. in your heart
you know its tainted.so i will always take no cheating
as much as it hurts to see us get stomped by the cheaters.
may have to wait till i,m in heaven to see the big razorback
house on the hill.

[Mike_e]

The only way to stop the cheating as NCAA football stands now is to get the IRS involved, not the bagmen but the players.  They are the ones that lack the experience to keep their rears covered.

If the IRS gets involved then that only hastens the day that we go to either a pay for play or the full ride model.  Pay for play is so inherently slanted that there would be no benefit to the schools which aren't going over the top in cheating.  -the rich would stay rich-

The only other thing (that my overactive mind can dream up) is to identify the worst offenders, bagmen and/or players, and make it a point to, if not ruin their lives, then to make them so miserable that they'd stop on their own volition.   And this would be a dangerous game.

So, without a sea change in the structure of the game, we're left with "don't get mad, get better".

[PorkSoda]

We have won our share of games without cheating so I don't buy the whole, 'you have to cheat to win crap'  maybe we will never be alabama and win 3 NC's in 4 years, but I don't need that to cheer for my team. 

I'm fine with the NCAA allowing cheating as long as its not blatant.  I'm fine with the illusion of amateur sports.  Its an necessary evil and far better than the alternative. 

[OneTuskOverTheLine™]

Given the source, this is the most disturbing topic I've seen here in some time. 

Thanks for sharing.

Chills... I don't want to be a cheater!

Mike, you should have made this a poll...

[Mike Irwin]

Because you asked, I vote neither.  College athletics has no place in the university system.  Sport has no place in the primary education system either.

Competitive sport should be completely separate from education.  Decouple.

But if I had to pick a side, I'm a moralist.  I'd rather lose and be straight than win by cheating.

Totally disagree. Some schools cut corners to win. Some scholarship athletes don't take their studies seriously. You shouldn't condemn the system because of the actions of some.

The vast majority of student athletes do go to class and they do get a degree. I see them all the time. People I first knew as kids, away from home for the first time, now grown adults with jobs and families.

[dagnamit]

Take this to basketball too...

I am thinking Kentucky. No they will not be investigated. Cal has finally found his dream job.... where you can cheat and everybody just turns their head.

[hawg IQ]

Many years ago the Hog media was ushered into Frank Broyles meeting room just outside his main office. Mike Slive had just been hired at the SEC's new commissioner and we were going to meet with him for the first time.

I remember vividly that without any questions from us he launched into a rambling statement wherein he claimed his first priority was to stop the cheating in the SEC.

Well, if that was his number one goal he's a failure.

My question is, do you really want the cheating to be cleaned up?

The NCAA took a crack at the old SWC in the late 80's. They nailed SMU's hide to the wall and TCU took it on the chin pretty good too.  A few years later the conference was in shambles.

I was stationed in SE Alabama when I was in the military back in the early 70's. I used to listen to Auburn and Alabama fans trying to out brag each other over which school was the best at cheating.

To my impartial ears, based on the various claims, it was Alabama hands down.

The times that Arkansas has beaten Alabama in football has dovetailed with probation or the effects of it. If the playing field was not leveled because of NCAA sanctions Arkansas has not stood much of a chance.

I have said before, I'm convinced that the great majority of shady deals never involve a coaching staff. Creative boosters pull kids to Alabama (and a few other conference schools) without the coaches ever having to know.

Can these people be caught? Of course. But Alabama and Auburn would go down. Several other schools would be affected negatively.

Arkansas would come out of it fine because its boosters are lightweights in the cheating game.

So the playing field would be leveled but the SEC would not continue to win national titles in five or six year stretches.

So which is it? Would you rather to continue down the same road or have a better chance to compete in a reduced conference?

My concern is where does it (cheating) stop?  Players , officials, refs. I mean if you ever watched one of the (hog games) tebow florida cheatdowns..or the cam newton auburn year where the famous goal line fumble that still hasn't crossed the goal line..  or as many other sec team games that allowed the best chance (for sec) team to play in NC game where the calls always go for higher ranked teams. One would know cheating is top shelf. A $900 a game ref getting slipped 40-50 thousand on Monday morning would be a cinch.

      Players no doubt are bought and paid and Mike Slive would have to know about the cheating. if not first hand, common sense says second hand.
  While Alabama recruits well now, it is more understandable because of national status.  It obvious that Auburn has to be cheating in recruiting along with LSU.
   And you know Ol Miss bringing in top recruits to "nowhereville" , well  money has to pass hands and I'de say that old master Steve Spurrier might know a thing or two about allowing boosters to steer a few 5 stars in.
  Yet in my opinion cheating should be stopped just like shutting down a bootlegger or someone cheating on their taxes. I'de rather play in a lesser tiered conference as to be any part of cheating is football.

[Theolesnort]

The only way to stop cheating would be for Congress when they give colleges exemption to anti trust law to also give the NCAA subpoena powers. That would stop most of the cheating, well the big cheating, but that will not happen and probably should not.