Is this an explanation of Little Rocks decline in high school football?

[MuskogeeHogFan]

You decide. Many of you more familiar with this can weigh in. I am not as informed but had a good friend play for Little Rock Hall in his senior season of 1970.

Has the perceived demise of Little Rock public school football had a negative effect on Arkansas football?

Long read, but maybe worth the read and feedback?

"To the chagrin of many, Little Rock School District football is no longer "a big deal." For almost a decade, many of the district's football teams have fallen to depths unimaginable even 15 years ago. Last season, the five LRSD high school football teams had a combined 11 wins and 43 losses. Three of those programs — J.A. Fair, Hall and McClellan Magnet High School — won a total of 16 games from 2008 through 2012. Barely more than one win per season, per team. The LRSD's well of future NFL players — which, along with Jackson, produced the likes of Hall's Leslie O'Neal and Chris Akins, Fair's Cedric Cobbs and Chris Harris, and Central's Derek Russell and Reggie Swinton — has almost run dry. The district's talent level is simply not where it was decades ago, when Jackson teamed up at Parkview with future Razorbacks like James Rouse, Rickey Williams, Bill Ingram and Anthony Chambers".

http://www.syncweekly.com/news/2013/sep/17/lost-cause/

[Cotton]

You decide. Many of you more familiar with this can weigh in. I am not as informed but had a good friend play for Little Rock Hall in his senior season of 1970.

Has the perceived demise of Little Rock public school football had a negative effect on Arkansas football?

Long read, but maybe worth the read and feedback?

"To the chagrin of many, Little Rock School District football is no longer "a big deal." For almost a decade, many of the district's football teams have fallen to depths unimaginable even 15 years ago. Last season, the five LRSD high school football teams had a combined 11 wins and 43 losses. Three of those programs — J.A. Fair, Hall and McClellan Magnet High School — won a total of 16 games from 2008 through 2012. Barely more than one win per season, per team. The LRSD's well of future NFL players — which, along with Jackson, produced the likes of Hall's Leslie O'Neal and Chris Akins, Fair's Cedric Cobbs and Chris Harris, and Central's Derek Russell and Reggie Swinton — has almost run dry. The district's talent level is simply not where it was decades ago, when Jackson teamed up at Parkview with future Razorbacks like James Rouse, Rickey Williams, Bill Ingram and Anthony Chambers".

http://www.syncweekly.com/news/2013/sep/17/lost-cause/

Its because they all transfer to better schools. You wouldn't wanna go to any of the schools either. Trust me.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

Its because they all transfer to better schools. You wouldn't wanna go to any of the schools either. Trust me.

So the emphasis on games in Little Rock for recruiting purposes isn't so important as once thought?

[Cotton]

So the emphasis on games in Little Rock for recruiting purposes isn't so important as once thought?

1. They still play in LR area, nice try!

2. That was your entire intention of this thread wasn't it???

Sneaky lil bas***d lol!

[MuskogeeHogFan]

1. They still play in LR area, nice try!

2. That was your entire intention of this thread wasn't it???

Sneaky lil bas***d lol!

No, not all. I remember LR producing a lot of truly great athletes. I honestly am not as informed as many on here with regard to LR athletes. I would just think that LR would be producing more Div I football talent within their public schools (not everyone can go to a private school). I know that basketball has become a big emphasis in the LR public school districts, but what has happened to football from where it previously was, as opposed to now?

[RT1941]

No, not all. I remember LR producing a lot of truly great athletes. I honestly am not as informed as many on here with regard to LR athletes. I would just think that LR would be producing more Div I football talent within their public schools (not everyone can go to a private school). I know that basketball has become a big emphasis in the LR public school districts, but what has happened to football from where it previously was, as opposed to now?

Private schools provide all sorts of "scholarships" for really talented kids. 

[MuskogeeHogFan]

Private schools provide all sorts of "scholarships" for really talented kids.

I see the same in Tulsa. Private schools like Holland Hall and Cascia Hall, not so much as the others because of educational standards, do recruit and give scholarships to kids to play ball. But other non-privates like Jenks, Union, Owasso and Broken Arrow as well, recruit kids and try to find ways to transplant parents to a different geographic school district as to where they live in order to recruit players that helps offer them greater potential opportunites at the next level.

[Hawgndaaz]

Gotta keep the upper middle class kids in the public LR schools or they don't really stand a chance in football.

[ricepig]

NLR and Central have money invested in their programs, the rest are on a poor 2A budget.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

Gotta keep the upper middle class kids in the public LR schools or they don't really stand a chance in football.

So what has happened to preclude that?

[Cotton]

Private schools provide all sorts of "scholarships" for really talented kids.

This ^^^^

[Ex-Trumpet]

How many kids that might participate in football spend all their time on a bus before and after school?  What roll has politics played, if any?

[Bacons Rebellion]

So what has happened to preclude that?

I can't speak to LR, but take for example, Hall High School (that I looked up), which is 77% black and 5% white, in a state that is 64% white and 22% black.

Basically, it's a lost cause to get white students to attend. A white family will not move into the district and have their kids attend a overwhelmingly minority high school.  Whites in the district obviously make arrangements for other schooling now.

And this isn't racism. It's avoiding a school for your kids that will be so culturally different as to be a barrier to their education.

[Danny J]

I can't speak to LR, but take for example, Hall High School (that I looked up), which is 77% black and 5% white, in a state that is 64% white and 22% black.

Basically, it's a lost cause to get white students to attend. A white family will not move into the district and have their kids attend a overwhelmingly minority high school.  Whites in the district obviously make arrangements for other schooling now.

And this isn't racism. It's avoiding a school for your kids that will be so culturally different as to be a barrier to their education.

Makes sense.

I am curious as to the funding differences for athletic departments between say the NWA public schools vs the LR public schools.

[razorbeck]

It could have something to do with the fact that these athletes are just not playing football as well.

[ricepig]

Makes sense.

I am curious as to the funding differences for athletic departments between say the NWA public schools vs the LR public schools.

Seriously, outside of Central and NLR it's almost non-existent for LRSD.

[kingofdequeen]

Makes sense.

I am curious as to the funding differences for athletic departments between say the NWA public schools vs the LR public schools.

lololololol.  You are???  let's just say "A BUNCH".

look at the stadiums. 

[Shoat61]

Combination of things such as:
1. No period set aside for athletics like smaller school districts.
2. Higher grade point requirements to participate in sports.
3. White flight to suburbs.
4. Black kids prefer basketball (see state champs).  White kids play soccer (see state champs).
5. More open to going to other colleges (the UofA is not in their backyard).
6. Greater number of large private schools.
7. Low priority of instate recruiting by the Hogs.
All the above are very broad generalizations.  There are many examples  for and against them as causes.  But they are simply observations with some firsthand knowledge.

[Hawgndaaz]

lololololol.  You are???  let's just say "A BUNCH".

look at the stadiums. 

booster clubs and bonds ftw

[impact]

So why isnt NWA, Benton, Bryant, Cabot filling the void with this talent?  They aren't bleeding heart liberals, low crime, parent participation, got money.

[Cotton]

So why isnt NWA, Benton, Bryant, Cabot filling the void with this talent?  They aren't bleeding heart liberals, low crime, parent participation, got money.

What void??

[kingofdequeen]

So why isnt NWA, Benton, Bryant, Cabot filling the void with this talent?  They aren't bleeding heart liberals, low crime, parent participation, got money.

well, if we're gonna cut right to the chase it's b/c 5'10" kids who run 4.9's don't fit the bill.

[redeye]

Gotta keep the upper middle class kids in the public LR schools or they don't really stand a chance in football.

Lot's of truth in this.

I can't speak to LR, but take for example, Hall High School (that I looked up), which is 77% black and 5% white, in a state that is 64% white and 22% black.

Basically, it's a lost cause to get white students to attend. A white family will not move into the district and have their kids attend a overwhelmingly minority high school.  Whites in the district obviously make arrangements for other schooling now.

And this isn't racism. It's avoiding a school for your kids that will be so culturally different as to be a barrier to their education.

Well, racism is some of what caused it.  LR schools weren't mostly black until the whites began leaving it.  When I was there, it was about 50-50 at all of them, except for Central.

Having said that, I don't for a minute believe that racism is the only reason they left.  The schools were going downhill long before that and no one seemed to care.  Maybe they just saw it as a lost cause, but many parents seemed to think it was easier to just leave the LRSD.

So why isnt NWA, Benton, Bryant, Cabot filling the void with this talent?  They aren't bleeding heart liberals, low crime, parent participation, got money.

I'm not sure that I understand what you're asking, but those schools have filled their coffers with talent that used to play in the LRSD.  When Keith Jackson was playing for Parkview, I doubt that those schools hardly had any black players, or black residents, but look at them today.  They likely have even more white players who's fathers played in the LRSD, but I only mentioned the black ones because those schools didn't hardly have any blacks back then.

Muskogee, I skimmed through the article and I'll answer your question with "NO".

[MuskogeeHogFan]

Combination of things such as:
1. No period set aside for athletics like smaller school districts.
2. Higher grade point requirements to participate in sports.
3. White flight to suburbs.
4. Black kids prefer basketball (see state champs).  White kids play soccer (see state champs).
5. More open to going to other colleges (the UofA is not in their backyard).
6. Greater number of large private schools.
7. Low priority of instate recruiting by the Hogs.
All the above are very broad generalizations.  There are many examples  for and against them as causes.  But they are simply observations with some firsthand knowledge.

So in #4 you say that minorities prefer basketball over football but then you say in #7 that it is a low priority area for football recruiting. Wouldn't #4 tend to lead to #7?

[Obi-Hawg Kenobi]

It could have something to do with the fact that these athletes are just not playing football as well.

YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD!   The district here isn't willing to allot extra funding for the additional training and offseason weight programs to help the student athlete here. 

[Mike_e]

It could be because that the people in charge of that school district failed basic math.

In basketball there 346 basketball teams in Div 1 alone.  With a limit of 13 schollarships per team that's a total of 4498 available scholarships.

There are 126 FBS football teams with a limit of 85 for a total of 10,710 available.

Add to this there are 122 FCS football teams with a scholarship limit of 63 full scholarships (up to a headcount of 85 as some of these may be split) for a total of (at least due to the splitting) 7686.

Add both the FBC and the FCS and you get 18,396 available scholarships.

18,396 vs 4498.

Does anyone think that without too much effort the LR school system couldn't get at least  another 70 scholarships beyond what they are getting for their students now?

An extra 70 kids a year that would have an opportunity to get a degree.

Get a much better job?

Since most people don't move away from family most of these same guys would be coming right back into that district and be paying far more in tax dollars.  Creating more jobs to service the added income along with more jobs due to entrepreneurship encouraged by an education.

The money could be found but it seems to be elsewhere.  Even if extra busses had to be scheduled to take some of those players home after practice.

If this doesn't make you sick ,


well

[Danny J]

lololololol.  You are???  let's just say "A BUNCH".

look at the stadiums.

It just simply shows my ignorance for the way each school/district appropriates these funds. I honestly don't know why the disparity is so large. Where is the difference? Is it the amount of taxes versus funding is being spent? What can be done to correct it? Serious question...I honestly have no idea.

[Sweet Feet]

If you are talking about the LRSD schools, then:
1. The talented LR kids are going to NLR and other smaller schools around the county. This is why NLR, CAC, PA somewhat, and Other schools have been good in recent years because they get some of the LRSD kids. Private schools are notorious for getting athletes from the LR area. Some of the LRSD kids even go to benton and bryant as well.
2. Barely any money. Hall only has one side of seats. Parkview doesnt even have their own field. McClellan and fair have ok stadiums. Central is Central but even then the inside of the stadium is somewhat worn down and full of webs and dust.
3. Terrible coaches. I mean these are middle school caliber coaches i lie to you not. Hall cant even keep a coach.
4. The kids are leaning towards basketball. Hall and Parkview are powers and McClellan and Fair are respectable. You can almost say pulaski county is a basketball county even outside of the LRSD schools.
5. Simply put, the kids are bad as hell. Gangsters, thugs, hoodrat chicks, fights, and everything in between. Some people dont want to go to such a bad school filled with that. Nor do the parents or administration really want to endorse such a place. LRSD schools have become a dam zoo. Some of the athletes also probably lack discipline on the field or class and spend too much time in trouble.

[redeye]

If you are talking about the LRSD schools, then:
1. The talented LR kids are going to NLR and other smaller schools around the county. This is why NLR, CAC, PA somewhat, and Other schools have been good in recent years because they get some of the LRSD kids. Private schools are notorious for getting athletes from the LR area. Some of the LRSD kids even go to benton and bryant as well.
2. Barely any money. Hall only has one side of seats. Parkview doesnt even have their own field. McClellan and fair have ok stadiums. Central is Central but even then the inside of the stadium is somewhat worn down and full of webs and dust.
3. Terrible coaches. I mean these are middle school caliber coaches i lie to you not. Hall cant even keep a coach.
4. The kids are leaning towards basketball. Hall and Parkview are powers and McClellan and Fair are respectable. You can almost say pulaski county is a basketball county even outside of the LRSD schools.
5. Simply put, the kids are bad as hell. Gangsters, thugs, hoodrat chicks, fights, and everything in between. Some people dont want to go to such a bad school filled with that. Nor do the parents or administration really want to endorse such a place. LRSD schools have become a dam zoo. Some of the athletes also probably lack discipline on the field or class and spend too much time in trouble.

#1 is definitely true.  Back when LR schools were good, most private schools didn't even field teams, if they even existed at all.  Teams from outlying cities were made up of small-town white kids.  Not only have some of the good players migrated, but doing so probably created less interest in football for those who stayed.

I'm not sure that I buy into #2, though.  There's probably some truth to it, but Hall and Parkview have always played their games at Central, so that's nothing new.  New facilities would probably create excitement and participation, but I don't think the lack of them has anything to do with the changes we've seen happen.

Not sure about #3, but #4 has been true for a long time, now.  Having said that, it wasn't just black athletes that lost interest in football, but also white athletes, parents and everyone else involved in Friday night games.  If this wasn't true, then LR schools would likely have better facilities today.

#5 is just offensive and dumb.  Surely you don't believe that kids in LR public schools are worse then those in New Orleans, Miami, Memphis, Dallas and other large metro areas that produce a lot of talented players.  The biggest difference between now and 30 years ago is that the people who used to be difference makers have given up on the LRSD.  They either need to come back or be replaced.

[snoblind]

Pretty easy answer to a large part of it.  But I'll let you folks who live there bring that up.  A few of you have touched on the edges of the issue.

[ricepig]

#1 is definitely true.  Back when LR schools were good, most private schools didn't even field teams, if they even existed at all.  Teams from outlying cities were made up of small-town white kids.  Not only have some of the good players migrated, but doing so probably created less interest in football for those who stayed.

I'm not sure that I buy into #2, though.  There's probably some truth to it, but Hall and Parkview have always played their games at Central, so that's nothing new.  New facilities would probably create excitement and participation, but I don't think the lack of them has anything to do with the changes we've seen happen.

Not sure about #3, but #4 has been true for a long time, now.  Having said that, it wasn't just black athletes that lost interest in football, but also white athletes, parents and everyone else involved in Friday night games.  If this wasn't true, then LR schools would likely have better facilities today.

#5 is just offensive and dumb.  Surely you don't believe that kids in LR public schools are worse then those in New Orleans, Miami, Memphis, Dallas and other large metro areas that produce a lot of talented players.  The biggest difference between now and 30 years ago is that the people who used to be difference makers have given up on the LRSD.  They either need to come back or be replaced.

Hall plays at it's own stadium off of University, a dump, while PV plays out at JA Fair's stadium.

[Sweet Feet]

I'm not sure that I buy into #2, though.  There's probably some truth to it, but Hall and Parkview have always played their games at Central, so that's nothing new.  New facilities would probably create excitement and participation, but I don't think the lack of them has anything to do with the changes we've seen happen.


#5 is just offensive and dumb.  Surely you don't believe that kids in LR public schools are worse then those in New Orleans, Miami, Memphis, Dallas and other large metro areas that produce a lot of talented players.  The biggest difference between now and 30 years ago is that the people who used to be difference makers have given up on the LRSD.  They either need to come back or be replaced.

#2, hall plays at their own stadium. Right by a middle school at that. Parkview plays at fair.

#5 i can say that because i graduated from an LRSD school a few years ago. I also have family members who teach in the LRSD that constantly talk about these bad kids. The stories are just sad and rediculous. I wont say they are worse than big city schools, but they are getting there.

[HognotinMemphis]

You decide. Many of you more familiar with this can weigh in. I am not as informed but had a good friend play for Little Rock Hall in his senior season of 1970.

Has the perceived demise of Little Rock public school football had a negative effect on Arkansas football?

Long read, but maybe worth the read and feedback?

"To the chagrin of many, Little Rock School District football is no longer "a big deal." For almost a decade, many of the district's football teams have fallen to depths unimaginable even 15 years ago. Last season, the five LRSD high school football teams had a combined 11 wins and 43 losses. Three of those programs — J.A. Fair, Hall and McClellan Magnet High School — won a total of 16 games from 2008 through 2012. Barely more than one win per season, per team. The LRSD's well of future NFL players — which, along with Jackson, produced the likes of Hall's Leslie O'Neal and Chris Akins, Fair's Cedric Cobbs and Chris Harris, and Central's Derek Russell and Reggie Swinton — has almost run dry. The district's talent level is simply not where it was decades ago, when Jackson teamed up at Parkview with future Razorbacks like James Rouse, Rickey Williams, Bill Ingram and Anthony Chambers".

http://www.syncweekly.com/news/2013/sep/17/lost-cause/

And Richard Richardson and Bert Zinnamon and Milton Fields of LR Central, to name 3 more. All great Razorbacks.

[impact]

What void??

The pipeline of D1 talent to the University of Arkansas

[redeye]

Hall plays at it's own stadium off of University, a dump, while PV plays out at JA Fair's stadium.

I think you're getting Hall confused with Forest Heights Middle School, because Hall has never had a stadium of it's own.  You may be right about them playing their home games there, but when I went to Hall, I think we played them all at Central's Quigley Field.

I don't know what the Forest Heights stadium is like today, but it used to be very nice for a middle school.  Then again, I don't know of any other middle schools that even had stadiums back then.  Looking on Google maps, it looks like a dirt field today, but it was lush with grass when I was a kid.  Catholic High School seems to have a nice field today, but I'm pretty sure that's new and that Catholic also played it's home games elsewhere back then.

[redeye]

#2, hall plays at their own stadium. Right by a middle school at that. Parkview plays at fair.

#5 i can say that because i graduated from an LRSD school a few years ago. I also have family members who teach in the LRSD that constantly talk about these bad kids. The stories are just sad and rediculous. I wont say they are worse than big city schools, but they are getting there.

Yea, I also graduated from a LRSD school, but it was decades ago.  Back then, I believe Parkview also played it's games at Quigley Field, although I believe they used to have a stadium.  If you look at Google maps, you can make out what looks like where bleachers used to be and I think they were removed.  If I'm right, that's just sad, because Parkview isn't that old.  I remember when it was new.

As for the kids, my point was that if other big cities can produce good talent with troubled kids, then that's a poor excuse for why Little Rock can't, also.  I know there are troubled kids in the LRSD, but I'm sure the same could be said about Memphis, New Orleans, Dallas and a number of other similar cities.

[redeye]

Btw, to some extent it's wrong to say that any pipeline from the LRSD to Arkansas has eroded.  As noted, many of those players now play elsewhere, so they're still out there.  And a lot of what has happened in Little Rock has happened in major cities all around the nation, but I do think our case is excessive and I suspect many great players are getting left behind, as a result of it.

[Peter Porker]

I think you're getting Hall confused with Forest Heights Middle School, because Hall has never had a stadium of it's own.  You may be right about them playing their home games there, but when I went to Hall, I think we played them all at Central's Quigley Field.

I don't know what the Forest Heights stadium is like today, but it used to be very nice for a middle school.  Then again, I don't know of any other middle schools that even had stadiums back then.  Looking on Google maps, it looks like a dirt field today, but it was lush with grass when I was a kid.  Catholic High School seems to have a nice field today, but I'm pretty sure that's new and that Catholic also played it's home games elsewhere back then.

You're right. Hall doesn't have it's own stadium.  Forest Heights Middle School is where Scott Field is located.

[Cotton]

The pipeline of D1 talent to the University of Arkansas

There's not a void? There is a pipeline of talent from Arkansas to the university.

[immahog]

You're right. Hall doesn't have it's own stadium.  Forest Heights Middle School is where Scott Field is located.

if you are saying hall does not have a field on campus you ae right but scott field is hall's field they even have the name on the score board

[immahog]

IMHO I think LRSD should consolidate combine fair an McClellan would bring enrollment arount 1,600 combine parkview an Hall enrolment would be around 1,800 an then you have Central would cost a lot short term but the district would be better off long term ...I just think it's to many schools an not enough money.

This also leads to more players on teams which has to make for better teams. The four schools had a combined 117 players last year

[DeltaBoy]

Blame the Lawyer , and Judge Henry Wood and that stupid  Case

[Cotton]

IMHO I think LRSD should consolidate combine fair an McClellan would bring enrollment arount 1,600 combine parkview an Hall enrolment would be around 1,800 an then you have Central would cost a lot short term but the district would be better off long term ...I just think it's to many schools an not enough money.

This also leads to more players on teams which has to make for better teams. The four schools had a combined 117 players last year

They already don't have money as it is... If anything they need to create a couple smaller districts and break up LRSD so it can be managed more efficiently. LRSD administration is a joke as well, ask any administrator in the state.

[RNHog]

well, if we're gonna cut right to the chase it's b/c 5'10" kids who run 4.9's don't fit the bill.

This.

[ricepig]

if you are saying hall does not have a field on campus you ae right but scott field is hall's field they even have the name on the score board

Correct, it's their home stadium, never said it was on campus, and PV has played at Fair for years. I won't even discuss their poor excuse for a baseball field.

[hawkhawg]

Funding, Private schools, basketball, and administrators.

[DeltaBoy]

Once the White flight to Saline County began due to the Idiotic Lawsuit  Little Rock was DOOMED.  I am puzzled with the rise of Private schools and the massive growth in Cabot NLR and Saline County why they are not turning out more players.

[JayBell]

We keep talking about the decline in Little Rock football, but a mere two miles north of downtown Little Rock now sits one of the best athletic programs in the state.  North Little Rock is churning out Tenpenny, Beard, Day, Allen, Hill, etc.

To me, that says the issue has to do with the Little Rock School District instead of any perceived lack of talent in the area.  Why go to Central, Fair, Hall, McClellan or Parkview when North Little Rock, Pulaski Academy, Central Arkansas Christian, etc. are all right there?  To me it seems like e-Stem and Episcopal are two of the fastest growing, good schools in the state too.  There's just better options for kids and their parents.

[Cotton]

We keep talking about the decline in Little Rock football, but a mere two miles north of downtown Little Rock now sits one of the best athletic programs in the state.  North Little Rock is churning out Tenpenny, Beard, Day, Allen, Hill, etc.

To me, that says the issue has to do with the Little Rock School District instead of any perceived lack of talent in the area.  Why go to Central, Fair, Hall, McClellan or Parkview when North Little Rock, Pulaski Academy, Central Arkansas Christian, etc. are all right there?  To me it seems like e-Stem and Episcopal are two of the fastest growing, good schools in the state too.  There's just better options for kids and their parents.

This is what I've been asking throughout this thread. I'm curious as to why people think there is some void of talent coming from LR Metro area.

[OLDHOG]

Blame the Lawyer , and Judge Henry Wood and that stupid Denigration Case

The truth. People don't want to here the truth sometimes.