Let's talk Quarterbacks

[ChitownHawg]

The difference between talking trash in a bar and in here is that not everyone in here is drunk.





just sayin.

Yep and we cannot smack him! 

[Steef]

Yep and we cannot smack him! 

We CAN put him 'ignore' though. 

[ChitownHawg]

No argument from me but BA gets a pass for his poor play. If that is the case give tevin Mitchell, Otha peters and everybody that played hurt last season a pass for poor play.

I'm sorry you are just trying to start an argument, because I refuse to believe an Arkansan can be this football dumb!   

[MuskogeeHogFan]

No argument from me but BA gets a pass for his poor play. If that is the case give tevin Mitchell, Otha peters and everybody that played hurt last season a pass for poor play.

Please, can you tell me how many attempts/completions and yards that they threw for with an injured shoulder? Not exactly the same thing.

[Letsroll1200]

Yeah. Because injuries aren't real.

Obviously, you never actually PLAYED football.

I played football and every team experience injuries of some kind. If you play you play. I just hope CBB does not make excuses for the team poor play. Too many games that the kids did not compete last year.

[Steef]

I played football

Uh huh.

[Letsroll1200]

Please, can you tell me how many attempts/completions and yards that they threw for with an injured shoulder? Not exactly the same thing.

A team is team and all parts work together. Tevin Mitchell suffered a severe neck or head injury but it had nothing to do with his technique. BA suffered a shoulder injury but what does that have to do with poor reads and decision making. I'm looking forward to a better BA but I'm waiting to see more. Arkansas will not be any good with a below or average QB.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

I played football and every team experience injuries of some kind. If you play you play. I just hope CBB does not make excuses for the team poor play. Too many games that the kids did not compete last year.

There were two whole games last year where I would agree that they didn't "compete".

[MuskogeeHogFan]

A team is team and all parts work together. Tevin Mitchell suffered a severe neck or head injury but it had nothing to do with his technique. BA suffered a shoulder injury but what does that have to do with poor reads and decision making. I'm looking forward to a better BA but I'm waiting to see more. Arkansas will not be any good with a below or average QB.

That was in 2012, not 2013. But again, those facts, they get you every time.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-dr-saturday/another-frightening-injury-arkansas-cb-tevin-mitchel-carted-023430342--ncaaf.html

[Letsroll1200]

That was in 2012, not 2013. But again, those facts, they get you every time.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-dr-saturday/another-frightening-injury-arkansas-cb-tevin-mitchel-carted-023430342--ncaaf.html

I'm aware that it was 2012 in a game in Little Rock. You missed the whole point. Did BA redshirt at Arkansas?

[MuskogeeHogFan]

I'm aware that it was 2012 in a game in Little Rock. You missed the whole point. Did BA redshirt at Arkansas?

What does that have to do with anything? Yes, he was a R/S in 2011. What in the world does that have to do with Tevin's injury? Wilson got all of the develpment in 2011 while Allen QB'd the Scout Team. 2012, no development because the focus was again on Wilson. 2013, new offense and a shoulder injury to his throwing shoulder to boot.

If you played football at a higher level, like at the college level, you can understand how all of this works. If not, I understand your perspective. Heck, any rational person could grasp this if they only played nothing more than Middle School football.

[ChitownHawg]

What does that have to do with anything? Yes, he was a R/S in 2011. What in the world does that have to do with Tevin's injury? Wilson got all of the develpment in 2011 while Allen QB'd the Scout Team. 2012, no development because the focus was again on Wilson. 2013, new offense.

If you played football at a higher level, like at the college level, you can understand how all of this works. If not, I understand your perspective.

You got him cornered and he is trying to wiggle out of it. He should learn from Guv and just back peddle. 

[MuskogeeHogFan]

You got him cornered and he is trying to wiggle out of it. He should learn from Guv and just back peddle. 

At least Guv would be a good CB for us.

[PonderinHog]

BA to HH, early and often.  You never know about the injury bug, but if these two stay healthy in 2014 I think we'll be OK.  With improved OL play and a good, possibly excellent backfield, I anticipate a much improved passing attack this year.  We're gonna surprise some people on offense.

On the other hand, the defense concerns me.  I hope they're up to the task.

[Letsroll1200]

What does that have to do with anything? Yes, he was a R/S in 2011. What in the world does that have to do with Tevin's injury? Wilson got all of the develpment in 2011 while Allen QB'd the Scout Team. 2012, no development because the focus was again on Wilson. 2013, new offense and a shoulder injury to his throwing shoulder to boot.

If you played football at a higher level, like at the college level, you can understand how all of this works. If not, I understand your perspective.

Ok now I understand. Thank you for letting me know college scholarship redshirt QB don't get coaching and development. Please don't tell that to Texas A&M.

[grayhawg]

I'm aware that it was 2012 in a game in Little Rock. You missed the whole point. Did BA redshirt at Arkansas?

Ok now I understand. Thank you for letting me know college scholarship redshirt QB don't get coaching and development. Please don't tell that to Texas A&M.

I have read several of your post and what do you know, I think I found your picture.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[MuskogeeHogFan]

Ok now I understand. Thank you for letting me know college scholarship redshirt QB don't get coaching and development. Please don't tell that to Texas A&M.

Allen didn't at Arkansas, unless you are biased to begin with or blind. Does he even remotely look like a highly ranked QB recruit of Bobby Petrino? No. So while he was a really good HS QB, how much development would you say that he has benefited from in college, especially when he was running a scout team his R/S year and left to development by the 2012 staff that was the equivalent of a chinese fired drill?

I am sure that BP planned to develop Allen, but that ill-fated motorcycle wreck doomed all of that, not only for BP but for BA as well. Priorities changed at that point and Paul Petrino, knowing he likely wasn't going to survive the transition, hung his hat on Wilson only. That's the problem with a "lame-duck" staff.

[Letsroll1200]

I have read several of your post and what do you know, I think I found your picture.

Thank you!!!!  Maybe he should start at QB. He is quick and fast but I do t know about his throwing shoulder.

[ChitownHawg]

Thank you!!!!  Maybe he should start at QB. He is quick and fast but I do t know about his throwing shoulder.

I'm not sure he can see over the line. 

[Letsroll1200]

Allen didn't at Arkansas, unless you are biased to begin with or blind. Does he even remotely look like a highly ranked QB recruit of Bobby Petrino? No. So while he was a really good HS QB, how much development would you say that he has benefited from in college, especially when he was running a scout team his R/S year and left to development by the 2012 staff that was the equivalent of a chinese fired drill?

I am sure that BP planned to develop Allen, but that ill-fated motorcycle wreck doomed all of that, not only for BP but for BA as well. Priorities changed at that point and Paul Petrino, knowing he likely wasn't going to survive the transition, hung his hat on Wilson only. That's the problem with a "lame-duck" staff.

4 star and number 5 recruit at his position. Allen was the third ranked player in the state. Unfortunately he did come to campus considered highly rated. This is too too easy.

[GlassofSwine]

Seems like folks have to be constantly reminded that BA played with an injured shoulder from about the third series of the third game of the season. Never recovered fully last season. Derby didn't set the world on fire so BA gets forced back into action too early, still playing hurt.

I hope for his sake and the Hogs, that he can. Time will tell.

LOL....No I don't need to be reminded he was injured. We can throw out all the middle comments that are excuses/reasons for his poor play.Your last statement is the one that matters and that is what I am stating. I am not going to get excited and carry high expectations into the season for a QB based on excuses for poor play. When he goes on the field and plays at a high level I will raise my expectations until then he's proven to be serviceable but that is about it.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

LOL....No I don't need to be reminded he was injured. We can throw out all the middle comments that are excuses/reasons for his poor play.Your last statement is the one that matters and that is what I am stating. I am not going to get excited and carry high expectations into the season for a QB based on excuses for poor play. When he goes on the field and plays at a high level I will raise my expectations until then he's proven to be serviceable but that is about it.

What is laughable to me is that some folks (maybe even you) still view the reasons for poor performance as being "excuses" as opposed to being legitimate reasons for less than stellar performance. If it were another team other than Arkansas most of us would be more realistic and say, "I can understand that", but because it is our team, Arkansas, we tend to be more critical.

[King TUSKankahamun]

Well this escalated quickly 

So I typed 2 sentences about BA as a pre thought and it turned into this.........

Anyway, BA will be fine. I too was not happy with QB play last year but we have every reason to expect better results this year. 2nd year in the system. Better o line, healed injury etc. is he in the ranks with TW8 and RM15? No, but he will do that's why I sated he will be serviceable. No one is going to take the job away from him (because of his experience) unless he gets injured again and the backup proves to be better in the game. Until that happens we have BA

[12247]

I hope Brandon Allen plays up to his coming out of High School potential.  I hope we really develop a second QB and even a third QB to a degree that they know their position if they are needed.  I worry that Derby will be the 2nd Guy this season coming up.  I doubt that any QB below BA will get much training or experience so Derby will automatically receive the #2 slot due to being the most experienced of the lot.  We shall see come the first game.  Huh, they can't close that to the public, can they?

[GlassofSwine]

What is laughable to me is that some folks (maybe even you) still view the reasons for poor performance as being "excuses" as opposed to being legitimate reasons for less than stellar performance. If it were another team other than Arkansas most of us would be more realistic and say, "I can understand that", but because it is our team, Arkansas, we tend to be more critical.

No, because Brandon Allen has never played a stellar game at the college level. Until he goes out and proves he is capable of being spectacular then they are excuses. Excuses can be legitimate but it is still an excuse.  By definition an excuse is an attempt to lessen the blame or justify something. If there was legitimate proof that Brandon Allen could play stellar at the SEC level than it would be obvious that his poor performance was because of his injury but until he proves he can excel, it is just an excuse for his mediocrity and everyone is hoping he will be better.

[LZH]

No one has been more critical than I have this offseason...and our QB's were certainly fair game.

But anyone who thinks that throwing a football with a separated shoulder is just a matter of toughness should try having sex with their nuts in a set of vice grips.....let's see how that affects their performance.

[ChitownHawg]

No, because Brandon Allen has never played a stellar game at the college level. Until he goes out and proves he is capable of being spectacular then they are excuses. Excuses can be legitimate but it is still an excuse.  By definition an excuse is an attempt to lessen the blame or justify something. If there was legitimate proof that Brandon Allen could play stellar at the SEC level than it would be obvious that his poor performance was because of his injury but until he proves he can excel, it is just an excuse for his mediocrity and everyone is hoping he will be better.

I think you are using that as an excuse to complain. 

[Letsroll1200]

No, because Brandon Allen has never played a stellar game at the college level. Until he goes out and proves he is capable of being spectacular then they are excuses. Excuses can be legitimate but it is still an excuse.  By definition an excuse is an attempt to lessen the blame or justify something. If there was legitimate proof that Brandon Allen could play stellar at the SEC level than it would be obvious that his poor performance was because of his injury but until he proves he can excel, it is just an excuse for his mediocrity and everyone is hoping he will be better.

+1 Very good post

[thefisher]

Excuses does not produce positive results.

There is a world of difference in an excuse and an actual reason.

If we break your leg I bet you won't be able to run a sub 9 second 40.  The broken leg is not an excuse for the slow time. The broken leg is an actual reason for the slow 40 time.  Injuries are real and reasons .... not excuses.

[ChitownHawg]

There is a world of difference in an excuse and an actual reason.

If we break your leg I bet you won't be able to run a sub 9 second 40.  The broken leg is not an excuse for the slow time. The broken leg is an actual reason for the slow 40 time.  Injuries are real and reasons .... not excuses.

Those two won't understand nor accept that logic.

[GlassofSwine]

There is a world of difference in an excuse and an actual reason.

If we break your leg I bet you won't be able to run a sub 9 second 40.  The broken leg is not an excuse for the slow time. The broken leg is an actual reason for the slow 40 time.  Injuries are real and reasons .... not excuses.

  The problem with using the separated shoulder as a "reason" for Brandon Allen playing mediocre is there is no proof of him ever playing better than mediocre at the college level. It is obvious that the injury caused him to play worse but no one knows to what extent. So saying that Brandon Allen would have been great if not for the separated shoulder is in fact an excuse to justify his terrible play in the middle of the season.
   So if you want to say that the injury is a legitimate reason for Brandon Allen playing below his potential last year, Than I am with you. But no one on here can state with certainty what his potential is without the injury or how much better he will be. Everyone is just hoping for the best and clinging to the injury as their confirmation.

[bennyl08]

  The problem with using the separated shoulder as a "reason" for Brandon Allen playing mediocre is there is no proof of him ever playing better than mediocre at the college level. It is obvious that the injury caused him to play worse but no one knows to what extent. So saying that Brandon Allen would have been great if not for the separated shoulder is in fact an excuse to justify his terrible play in the middle of the season.
   So if you want to say that the injury is a legitimate reason for Brandon Allen playing below his potential last year, Than I am with you. But no one on here can state with certainty what his potential is without the injury or how much better he will be. Everyone is just hoping for the best and clinging to the injury as their confirmation.

If you change that to say "in the SEC" then you be mostly correct. Which really shows how bad aTm's defense was that we did so well vs them. One can comment on his potential based on what he has done in practices and such. Even if he only ever threw one good deep pass, or only went through his progressions once in practice, it shows that he is physically capable of doing that and hence is a reflection of his potential.

[ChitownHawg]

  The problem with using the separated shoulder as a "reason" for Brandon Allen playing mediocre is there is no proof of him ever playing better than mediocre at the college level. It is obvious that the injury caused him to play worse but no one knows to what extent. So saying that Brandon Allen would have been great if not for the separated shoulder is in fact an excuse to justify his terrible play in the middle of the season.
   So if you want to say that the injury is a legitimate reason for Brandon Allen playing below his potential last year, Than I am with you. But no one on here can state with certainty what his potential is without the injury or how much better he will be. Everyone is just hoping for the best and clinging to the injury as their confirmation.

Who in this thread said great? To me that is a bit of a fabrication of the current discussion.

[GlassofSwine]

Who in this thread said great? To me that is a bit of a fabrication of the current discussion.

legitimate reasons for less than stellar performance

From Muskogee up above.

definition of stellar would be outstanding, star performer, etc.

[ChitownHawg]

From Muskogee up above.

definition of stellar would be outstanding, star performer, etc.

I will let Muskogee answer why he used stellar, but in all of his posts I have never had the impression Muskogee felt BA was heading for greatness. I have always read his posts to mean BA has the necessary skills but has not proven it on the field.

[Steef]

I will let Muskogee answer why he used stellar, but in all of his posts I have never had the impression Muskogee felt BA was heading for greatness. I have always read his posts to mean BA has the necessary skills but has not proven it on the field.

You're doing good, bud.

[ChitownHawg]

You're doing good, bud.

I know, but Muskogee needs to stop picking these fights.   

[MuskogeeHogFan]

No, because Brandon Allen has never played a stellar game at the college level. Until he goes out and proves he is capable of being spectacular then they are excuses. Excuses can be legitimate but it is still an excuse.  By definition an excuse is an attempt to lessen the blame or justify something. If there was legitimate proof that Brandon Allen could play stellar at the SEC level than it would be obvious that his poor performance was because of his injury but until he proves he can excel, it is just an excuse for his mediocrity and everyone is hoping he will be better.

You are attempting to pick pepper out of gnat shiite.

Learn the meaning of, "as opposed to".

[Steef]

I know, but Muskogee needs to stop picking these fights.   

Muskogee has his own style. Just like all of us. But he's on the right side.

[GlassofSwine]

You are attempting to pick pepper out of gnat shiite.

Learn the meaning of, "as opposed to".

LOL...Obviously you have no rebuttal. I'm not the one trying to inflate a performance that wasn't even close to mediocrity for a SEC starting QB. Statistically for BA to go from terrible to average as a starting SEC QB he needs to improve the following:

   Completion Percentage: by almost 15%
   TD per game: From 1.3 to around 1.8
   Yards per completion. Around 2.5 from 6 to 8.5
   Yards per game - Between 50 -70
   Int Ratio. From 1 for every 25 passes to 1 for every 35.

Now that would have made him a middle of the pack SEC QB last year. Those improvements would have made him:

Completion Percentage: 64.6% - 7th among SEC starters
TD's: 19.8 - 6th among SEC starters
yrds per completetion: 8.5 - 6th in the SEC
Yard per Game: 220 - 8th in the SEC
Int Ratio: - 8th in the SEC

  That is a hell of a lot of improvement to simply achieve mediocrity. Yeah, yeah...I know he was injured otherwise he would have been "stellar".

[LZH]

Yeah, yeah...I know he was injured otherwise he would have been "stellar". 

Not sure anyone is saying that. 

[WilsonHog]

LOL...Obviously you have no rebuttal. I'm not the one trying to inflate a performance that wasn't even close to mediocrity for a SEC starting QB. Statistically for BA to go from terrible to average as a starting SEC QB he needs to improve the following:

   Completion Percentage: by almost 15%
   TD per game: From 1.3 to around 1.8
   Yards per completion. Around 2.5 from 6 to 8.5
   Yards per game - Between 50 -70
   Int Ratio. From 1 for every 25 passes to 1 for every 35.

Now that would have made him a middle of the pack SEC QB last year. Those improvements would have made him:

Completion Percentage: 64.6% - 7th among SEC starters
TD's: 19.8 - 6th among SEC starters
yrds per completetion: 8.5 - 6th in the SEC
Yard per Game: 220 - 8th in the SEC
Int Ratio: - 8th in the SEC

  That is a hell of a lot of improvement to simply achieve mediocrity. Yeah, yeah...I know he was injured otherwise he would have been "stellar".

In several posts, you are crowding the line on "player bashing."

That is I'll-advised if you wish your account to remain active.

[GlassofSwine]

If you change that to say "in the SEC" then you be mostly correct. Which really shows how bad aTm's defense was that we did so well vs them. One can comment on his potential based on what he has done in practices and such. Even if he only ever threw one good deep pass, or only went through his progressions once in practice, it shows that he is physically capable of doing that and hence is a reflection of his potential.

  I had a good opinion of his performance in the A&M game when watching it but statistically it was not very good. 17 of 36 for 47% 3 TD's, 2 Int's.
   I believe the LSU game was his best game of the year, but that needs to be his average performance not his best.

[PonderinHog]

Not sure anyone is saying that.

Maybe this guy, but he has an accent that I'm not familiar with.

[GlassofSwine]

In several posts, you are crowding the line on "player bashing."

That is I'll-advised if you wish your account to remain active.

  I'm not trying to bash on BA. I hope he exceeds my expectations and lives up to his potential. If stating my opinion and using statistical data to back it up my conclusions is wrong, than I apologize. I don't think I have stated anything that cannot be factually backed up by statistics.

[LZH]

Maybe this guy, but he has an accent that I'm not familiar with.

Hee hee.....nice one.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

LOL...Obviously you have no rebuttal. I'm not the one trying to inflate a performance that wasn't even close to mediocrity for a SEC starting QB. Statistically for BA to go from terrible to average as a starting SEC QB he needs to improve the following:

   Completion Percentage: by almost 15%
   TD per game: From 1.3 to around 1.8
   Yards per completion. Around 2.5 from 6 to 8.5
   Yards per game - Between 50 -70
   Int Ratio. From 1 for every 25 passes to 1 for every 35.

Now that would have made him a middle of the pack SEC QB last year. Those improvements would have made him:

Completion Percentage: 64.6% - 7th among SEC starters
TD's: 19.8 - 6th among SEC starters
yrds per completetion: 8.5 - 6th in the SEC
Yard per Game: 220 - 8th in the SEC
Int Ratio: - 8th in the SEC

  That is a hell of a lot of improvement to simply achieve mediocrity. Yeah, yeah...I know he was injured otherwise he would have been "stellar".

I have a rebuttal, it just isn't one that you want to listen to. And, I never said that he was ever "stellar". You are reaching and making assumptions.

I've never inflated BA's numbers. I have never said that he is going to set the world on fire. I am just posting legit, unbased information and opinions and basically, as I have said all along, we will just have to see if he winds beng the QB that Bobby Petrino thought he was, when he recruited him.

But by the same token, because I don't have a negative bias towards him, I am going to post and represent all of the facts of what he has been through.

Problem is, some of you guys want to view being rational as being homer, when in fact, nothing is further from the truth.

[GlassofSwine]

But by the same token, because I don't have a negative bias towards him, I am going to post and represent all of the facts of what he has been through.

Problem is, some of you guys want to view being rational as being homer, when in fact, nothing is further from the truth.

  If you read my post history you will realize I have been supportive of BA. I think with a healthy BA we easily handle Rutgers last year, we don't fall apart in the Auburn game while he is being worked on. I've defended him against starting anyone else in his place, however I have to look at the data. The data is unbiased and it tells me taking away his injury he still needs significant improvement. Because of that I'm not going get my hopes up.

[Steef]

  I'm not trying to bash on BA. I hope he exceeds my expectations and lives up to his potential. If stating my opinion and using statistical data to back it up my conclusions is wrong, than I apologize. I don't think I have stated anything that cannot be factually backed up by statistics.

Dude. Take the hint.

[LZH]

Problem is, some of you guys want to view being rational as being homer, when in fact, nothing is further from the truth.

Whaddaya mean "you guys?".  Oh, now that I look at it again and see "rational", you're obviously not talking about me......so I get a pass - again.