Want to unionize and be an employee instead of an athlete?

[Atlhogfan1]

If you did away with athletics on this level, it would mostly even out.  Think of the marketing program you could buy for the same amount of money most schools lose on athletics every year.  You could be running adds during the Super Bowl for your school.

Over time yes.  Universities should stand on their educational brands anyway. 

[donbro]

Oh, it won't happen. As it is, colleges and universities are tripping over each other to afford some guy who couldnt write a critical analysis with a gun to his head the opportunity to earn a college degree while sitting in his pajamas at home drinking a 40-ounce.

would you be ok if those athletes playing college football decline the scholarship and housing. We eliminate that argument. What should be the value of compensation. Their is a big elephant in the room, most can't stomach the fact that major college football players, most whom are black, would make more money than them.

[Hawgon]

would you be ok if those athletes playing college football decline the scholarship and housing. We eliminate that argument. What should be the value of compensation. Their is a big elephant in the room, most can't stomach the fact that major college football players, most whom are black, would make more money than them.

Better to simply do away with it altogether and see how much those young black men make without the built in name recognition and brand loyalty that college football brings them.  And then, even if they are good enough, we can see what kind of NFL contract they get first time around after playing five years for the Pine Bluff Waterbugs in front of 50 fans a week instead of the University of Alabama.

[Wildhog]

would you be ok if those athletes playing college football decline the scholarship and housing. We eliminate that argument. What should be the value of compensation. Their is a big elephant in the room, most can't stomach the fact that major college football players, most whom are black, would make more money than them.

WTH.  Most of my sports heroes are black dudes that make more money than I'll ever see.

Can we go trough one discussion without some jackass turning it into a race issue?

[Theolesnort]

If you did away with athletics on this level, it would mostly even out.  Think of the marketing program you could buy for the same amount of money most schools lose on athletics every year.  You could be running adds during the Super Bowl for your school.

Hawgon they are not losing money per se, they are losing money by all the scholarships they give to non revenue producing sports and trying to satisfy Title 9 requirements. Stop Football and Basketball and you kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. That is why I used the term greedy lawyers and a few players who are looking at their own self interest. All these scholarships are a wonderful thing in themselves. In fact it would be a beautiful thing to preserve them.

[Wildhog]

And I cannot believe I allowed myself to be trolled.  Damnit.  -1

[donbro]

WTH.  Most of my sports heroes are black dudes that make more money than I'll ever see.

Can we go trough one discussion without some jackass turning it into a race
issue?

I'm not making it about race. It's an opinion so don't get offended

[texas tush hog]

Pro football players used to play for the fun of the game and have a full time job to pay bills. Thing change and change is coming to how college players are compensated. Calling them student athletes has been a joke for 10 years now.

This could be the beginning of the end of college athletics.

[donbro]

Better to simply do away with it altogether and see how much those young black men make without the built in name recognition and brand loyalty that college football brings them.  And then, even if they are good enough, we can see what kind of NFL contract they get first time around after playing five years for the Pine Bluff Waterbugs in front of 50 fans a week instead of the University of Alabama.

So without the brand name of Arkansas Darren McFadden would be a nobody. I laugh at this. What is disturbing is that you actually believe this crap

[MuskogeeHogFan]

Because it's a philosophical position for some, Scott. Certainly is for me.

I have no interest in watching our universities and colleges become quasi-professional leagues, minor leagues for the NBA and NFL. That's why I detest the one-and-done rule; I'm not interested in hearing arguments of the ability of an 18-year old to play a year and go pro. The sanctity of the university setting, as warped and watered down as we've allowed it to become, is still greater in my view than the needs of an individual student...or student-athlete.

Mike Leach commented on this evolving situation:

Leach was asked his thoughts on the news Wednesday that Northwestern football players qualify as employees and could unionize: "If these guys are professionals and they want everything to be like it is in the NFL, that means that shortly we're going to be having a draft and I for one would be pretty excited about having a whole nation full of quality athletes to draft from. So I'm looking forward to that ... That means if somebody doesn't perform well, you pay them less. If somebody performs real well, you pay them more. Although obviously every team should have the same salary cap. In addition to that, you have the opportunity to draft anybody you want. And maybe I'm wrong, but it follows if we're going to professionalize this kind of stuff. It follows that you handle it like professionals do."

http://espn.go.com/blog/pac10/post/_/id/70634/leach-cougs-get-back-to-work

[donbro]

This could be the end of college athletics.

Rightfully so. It stop being about Academics when colleges start negotiating billion dollar television deals

[Hawgon]

So without the brand name of Arkansas Darren McFadden would be a nobody. I laugh at this. What is disturbing is that you actually believe this crap

You actually picked the one person for whom that is exactly true.  What has he done in his professional career to justify the notoriety he has now?

[texas tush hog]

Mike Leach commented on this evolving situation:

Leach was asked his thoughts on the news Wednesday that Northwestern football players qualify as employees and could unionize: "If these guys are professionals and they want everything to be like it is in the NFL, that means that shortly we're going to be having a draft and I for one would be pretty excited about having a whole nation full of quality athletes to draft from. So I'm looking forward to that ... That means if somebody doesn't perform well, you pay them less. If somebody performs real well, you pay them more. Although obviously every team should have the same salary cap. In addition to that, you have the opportunity to draft anybody you want. And maybe I'm wrong, but it follows if we're going to professionalize this kind of stuff. It follows that you handle it like professionals do."

http://espn.go.com/blog/pac10/post/_/id/70634/leach-cougs-get-back-to-work

Do you see where this is going? They better retreat before the Cavalry shows up.

[WilsonHog]

would you be ok if those athletes playing college football decline the scholarship and housing. We eliminate that argument. What should be the value of compensation. Their is a big elephant in the room, most can't stomach the fact that major college football players, most whom are black, would make more money than them.

Not even close.

Read my post history, and this is what you will glean from it:

I believe "higher education" should be just that, and that universities should be places of higher education. For example, if a high school student can't make a 21 on the ACT, or has to take remedial classes in college, that student doesn't belong in a four-year university - public or private. I don't care whether they're white, black, Hispanic, or Asian. Let them go to a community college or a juco and get their academics in order, then finish at a four-year school. I also don't believe those standards should be relaxed based on how quickly someone can run from here to there.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

Do you see where this is going? They better retreat before the Cavalry shows up.

On the bright side, it would stop the arguments about retaining in-state talent and "putting a fence around the state".

[donbro]

You actually picked the one person for whom that is exactly true.  What has he done in his professional career to justify the notoriety he has now?

Since you probably don't leave Arkansas that much. Let me help you out, when I'm traveling and the conversation about college football comes up, when I mention that I'm a razorback fan 95% of the time McFadden name is  who those I talk to associate with Arkansas football. Arkansas is a big brand in Arkansas. McFadden, from my experiences, has made Arkansas a national recognize brand. Yes the name Arkansas was a factored it wasn't the main factor. You should travel more 

[Fatty McGee]

not to mention, who's to say the colleges dont say "fine you can get paid.  I pay you 25,000 a year, but you dont get a scholarship."  Now what?  You just screwed yourself because the cost of your education is going to be more then what they are willing to pay you.  I mean, if you think about how much they pay them now, in schooling, rent, food, clothes, medical, etc. for someone who sits on the bench and doesn't play a down.  You're not worth the money when it becomes a "buisness" meaning you will get MUCH less then what all of that is worth.  Just greedy to me....

Except the college won't do that because it needs players. Players are marketing. schools have decided that athletics are excellent marketing even if thy are no profitable.

[Fatty McGee]

If you did away with athletics on this level, it would mostly even out.  Think of the marketing program you could buy for the same amount of money most schools lose on athletics every year.  You could be running adds during the Super Bowl for your school.

They have thought about it, and decided that athletics is the best marketing. Why do you think Appalachian State and Georgia Southern just joined the FBS subdivision?  Not to win national titles, that's for sure. Or take Arkansas, which has one disputed title in over 100 years of football. Where could the university better increase its name recognition than football?  Even non-title contending football?

[Fatty McGee]

One more thought...

I don't want to hear anyone who tells us how fans need to be willing to pay higher ticket prices, and pay at higher contribution levels because of how hard it is and how much it costs to have a competitive program these days....

Turn around and make the argument that the players need to be paid because the universities are already rolling in billions of dollars from sports.

I agree.

[Hawgon]

Since you probably don't leave Arkansas that much. Let me help you out, when I'm traveling and the conversation about college football comes up, when I mention that I'm a razorback fan 95% of the time McFadden name is  who those I talk to associate with Arkansas football. Arkansas is a big brand in Arkansas. McFadden, from my experiences, has made Arkansas a national recognize brand. Yes the name Arkansas was a factored it wasn't the main factor. You should travel more 

I had a German walk up to me in Heidleburg and call the Hogs when Darren McFadden was in diapers.  You should be a bit less condescending and understand that things happened before the year 2000.

[ChitownHawg]

not to mention, who's to say the colleges dont say "fine you can get paid.  I pay you 25,000 a year, but you dont get a scholarship."  Now what?  You just screwed yourself because the cost of your education is going to be more then what they are willing to pay you.  I mean, if you think about how much they pay them now, in schooling, rent, food, clothes, medical, etc. for someone who sits on the bench and doesn't play a down.  You're not worth the money when it becomes a "buisness" meaning you will get MUCH less then what all of that is worth.  Just greedy to me....

Especially with this starting at Northwestern as their tuition is not cheap. For such smart players they don't seem to have thought this through.

[Hawgon]

They have thought about it, and decided that athletics is the best marketing. Why do you think Appalachian State and Georgia Southern just joined the FBS subdivision?  Not to win national titles, that's for sure. Or take Arkansas, which has one disputed title in over 100 years of football. Where could the university better increase its name recognition than football?  Even non-title contending football?

When it goes away, it will even out.

[texas tush hog]

Maybe. But doubtful.

But it certainly has been the beginning of hyperbole and overreaction.

As my grandpa used to say, "be careful what you pray for." And he died in 1984

[Fatty McGee]

Especially with this starting at Northwestern as their tuition is not cheap. For such smart players they don't seem to have thought this through.

Why?  They're playing with house money. A scholarship costs the school next to nothing. The school can't buy better marketing than a football game. So it's not going away. Whatever they negotiate will be better than what they have. Which of course is something every one of us does with the skills we have when getting a job.

[ChitownHawg]

Why?  They're playing with house money. A scholarship costs the school next to nothing. The school can't buy better marketing than a football game. So it's not going away. Whatever they negotiate will be better than what they have. Which of course is something every one of us does with the skills we have when getting a job.

Where I was going with that is the school says I will pay you $75,000 a year. Your tuition, room, and meals are $125,000 per year. Northwestern doesn't have a great stadium and making tons of money from it. I would bet the bulk of their money is conference money which they would get even if they went back down to the cellar.

It is an academic school and if this becomes an issue I would place my money on Northwestern going back to the old days of high academic standards and bad football.

[oldhawg]

I had a German walk up to me in Heidleburg and call the Hogs when Darren McFadden was in diapers.  You should be a bit less condescending and understand that things happened before the year 2000.

John McDonnell and his cross country/track & field teams did more to establish an international reputation for the Razorbacks than anything any other part of the athletic department has ever done.  I loved it when sports fans from other countries would acknowledge a great amount of respect for Arkansas runners.

[Fatty McGee]

Where I was going with that is the school says I will pay you $75,000 a year. Your tuition, room, and meals are $125,000 per year. Northwestern doesn't have a great stadium and making tons of money from it. I would bet the bulk of their money is conference money which they would get even if they went back down to the cellar.

It is an academic school and if this becomes an issue I would place my money on Northwestern going back to the old days of high academic standards and bad football.

Maybe. And if that happens it won't be a bad thing. But remember, it doesn't cost northwestern $125000 a year to give a scholarship.  It's much much less.  So they can still offer those even under this scenario.

[ChitownHawg]

Maybe. And if that happens it won't be a bad thing. But remember, it doesn't cost northwestern $125000 a year to give a scholarship.  It's much much less.  So they can still offer those even under this scenario.

I agree they can offer it at a lower price, but I believe they would use it as a deterrent. These private schools are making a killing. In 2005 Loyola Chicago made $100 million profit and they are about 30% cheaper than Northwestern. Of course being a nonprofit institution Loyola had to find someway to use the profits as they cannot have them. And they found a way! 

[Hogwild]

Not even close.

Read my post history, and this is what you will glean from it:

I believe "higher education" should be just that, and that universities should be places of higher education. For example, if a high school student can't make a 21 on the ACT, or has to take remedial classes in college, that student doesn't belong in a four-year university - public or private. I don't care whether they're white, black, Hispanic, or Asian. Let them go to a community college or a juco and get their academics in order, then finish at a four-year school. I also don't believe those standards should be relaxed based on how quickly someone can run from here to there.

Your idea might have merit, but it doesn't have anything to do with college sports.  First over 40% of freshman college students have to take remedial classes. Secondly college athletes have higher ACT scores and graduate at a higher rate than average.

[Brass Knob]

Maybe. And if that happens it won't be a bad thing. But remember, it doesn't cost northwestern $125000 a year to give a scholarship.  It's much much less.  So they can still offer those even under this scenario.

When you factor in housing, food, clothing, travel, trainers salaries, coaches salaries, and the initial recruitment of a player I am willing to bet it comes out far more than the cost of a scholarship... It is not just the price of attendance (scholarship face value) that has to be accounted for per player but all of the extras that they receive as benefits from being on scholarship.

[Brass Knob]

I agree they can offer it at a lower price, but I believe they would use it as a deterrent. These private schools are making a killing. In 2005 Loyola Chicago made $100 million profit and they are about 30% cheaper than Northwestern. Of course being a nonprofit institution Loyola had to find someway to use the profits as they cannot have them. And they found a way! 

Non-profits can make money. The term just means (more or less) that the profits do not stand to line the pockets of an owner or group of owners.

[Atlhogfan1]

Your idea might have merit, but it doesn't have anything to do with college sports.  First over 40% of freshman college students have to take remedial classes. Secondly college athletes have higher ACT scores and graduate at a higher rate than average.

Not football players and this is football and basketball driven. 

[Inhogswetrust]

I'm not making it about race. It's an opinion so don't get offended

If you are not making it about race why bring it up in your post.

[Inhogswetrust]

Mike Leach commented on this evolving situation:

Leach was asked his thoughts on the news Wednesday that Northwestern football players qualify as employees and could unionize: "If these guys are professionals and they want everything to be like it is in the NFL, that means that shortly we're going to be having a draft and I for one would be pretty excited about having a whole nation full of quality athletes to draft from. So I'm looking forward to that ... That means if somebody doesn't perform well, you pay them less. If somebody performs real well, you pay them more. Although obviously every team should have the same salary cap. In addition to that, you have the opportunity to draft anybody you want. And maybe I'm wrong, but it follows if we're going to professionalize this kind of stuff. It follows that you handle it like professionals do."

http://espn.go.com/blog/pac10/post/_/id/70634/leach-cougs-get-back-to-work

A VERY interesting scenario.

[WilsonHog]

Your idea might have merit, but it doesn't have anything to do with college sports.  First over 40% of freshman college students have to take remedial classes. Secondly college athletes have higher ACT scores and graduate at a higher rate than average.

I applied it across the board. Athletes and non-athletes.

[ChitownHawg]

Non-profits can make money. The term just means (more or less) that the profits do not stand to line the pockets of an owner or group of owners.

Yep - no lining of the pockets. Loyola is a Jesuit school and have been constructing new buildings for their Business and Law schools. These two schools are in prime downtown real estate in Chicago. They built a new dorm where visiting Jesuit priests can stay. I have no problem with them doing this, but the year they built this high rise dorm they raised our tuition to $3200 per class while they were making $100 mil.

6 months after graduating with a serious amount of debt they call me asking if I would donate money to the school. I told them could I at least pay off my student loans before they hit me up for a donation? 

Sorry I got a bit off topic, but years later it still bothers me how greedy these schools are. Fortunately the "Loyola" on my masters has paid off. Yet I would still give my UofA degree as good of a value consider how much cheaper it was.

[Wahls]

Rightfully so. It stop being about Academics when colleges start negotiating billion dollar television deals

And "graduating" players that read on a 2nd grade level.

[Wahls]

I agree they can offer it at a lower price, but I believe they would use it as a deterrent. These private schools are making a killing.

Oh, then don't sign with Northwestern. Crisis averted.


They'll get tore to shreds if that's the argument the NCAA brings to the negotiating table.

[SixtySecondsOfPitino]

When you factor in housing, food, clothing, travel, trainers salaries, coaches salaries, and the initial recruitment of a player I am willing to bet it comes out far more than the cost of a scholarship... It is not just the price of attendance (scholarship face value) that has to be accounted for per player but all of the extras that they receive as benefits from being on scholarship.

This is somewhat addressed to you, but it's more along the lines of my general sentiments:

Leaving the NW story aside, trainers' salaries, coaches' salaries, whatever was spent to persuade the recruit to attend a certain university and the like are not 'extras that [athletes] receive as benefits from being on scholarship.' Those are the costs born by the university to attract and retain a quasi-employee on a year-to-year basis.

These kids are getting exploited, putting their immediate health and future quality of life at stake to line the pockets of administrators, whether it be by ticket and merchandising sells or increased enrollment numbers, and to maybe (although unlikely) one day turn their skill into a career. To make it all the worse, a huge chunk of the athletes bringing in revenues are from disadvantaged upbringings.

They will eventually receive something resembling proper remuneration, and it will not kill major college athletics. And on the slight off-chance it does, it deserved to fade away anyhow.

[WilsonHog]

And "graduating" players that read on a 2nd grade level.

A professor friend of mine said of a football player, "This kid cannot read. I don't mean he doesn't read well. I mean, he CANNOT read. Whoever gave this kid a high school diploma should be sued for educational malpractice."

Let's see...that particular player never played pro ball, and certainly never graduated from college.

Tell me why he was there again?

[Inhogswetrust]

Maybe. But doubtful.

But it certainly has been the beginning of hyperbole and overreaction.

Which media people thrive on...................................

[Inhogswetrust]

The media isn't running around screaming "IT'S THE END OF COLLEGE SPORTS!!!!1111!"

True. BUT they are thriving on those that are. THAT was my point Scott and I bet you knew that. Come on man.

[Wahls]

A professor friend of mine said of a football player, "This kid cannot read. I don't mean he doesn't read well. I mean, he CANNOT read. Whoever gave this kid a high school diploma should be sued for educational malpractice."

Let's see...that particular player never played pro ball, and certainly never graduated from college.

Tell me why he was there again?

I know a guy who was "homeschooled" from second grade on. His parents owned a farm and he worked it. He is dyslexic. If I were to estimate, he probably reads on a 4th grade level due to the dyslexia and lack of practice he got. His reasoning skills aren't great and critical thinking and decision making skills are quite bad.

The kicker? He has an associates degree but has failed two civil service exams. Think about that.

I'm not saying this sort of thing doesn't happen outside of sports - it does. But it seems like there's a new educational scandal every week in college sports.

Amateurism is dead. The ones that get ahead of the curve right now will win in a big way.

[Wahls]

Honestly, I've seen little of that type of coverage of this.

This. I think most are much more optimistic that there's gonna be a much more interesting result than spooky music.

[texas tush hog]

The media isn't running around screaming "IT'S THE END OF COLLEGE SPORTS!!!!1111!"

No, because they realize many of them will be looking for jobs without college sports to report on. The print media is close to dead and sports is a lot of what is keeping journalism alive. Once it is gone goodbye to half of sports reporters.

[Theolesnort]

I agree they can offer it at a lower price, but I believe they would use it as a deterrent. These private schools are making a killing. In 2005 Loyola Chicago made $100 million profit and they are about 30% cheaper than Northwestern. Of course being a nonprofit institution Loyola had to find someway to use the profits as they cannot have them. And they found a way! 

Locusbug you like others ignore the different elephants in the room. It is not what a scholarship cost it is what all the scholarships together cost. Northwestern just like public institutions rely on government grants like all research schools do. Even if they are a private school they have to abide by Title 9 also if they want to receive their fair share. And then there are other government considerations too. Big brother is watching don't ever forget that. The money that the schools make is already being spent. The huge profits after expenses is fiction except for a case or two like, gag Texas.

[Inhogswetrust]

Honestly, I've seen little of that type of coverage of this.

You need to watch more TV then or read newspapers or the internet. This story is being covered. Maybe not in the context of gloom and doom but it is news and it is being covered. Lawyers are talking, Columnist are writing about possible scenarios, Editors of newspapers are commenting on the ruling, etc. 

[Theolesnort]

Which media people thrive on...................................

Inhogswetrust, I can see Scott in my minds eye running around as a youngster getting into all kinds of scrapes and troubles simple because he didn't realize that his actions had consequences. I kid, I kid.

[Inhogswetrust]

I've read tons of coverage on it. I was saying the doom and gloom and overreaction isn't coming from the media.

Most columnists are in a wait and see mode. Likely because it is such a complicated issue. But that hasn't slowed the freakouts by the fans.

I guess we actually agree then. SOME media members HAVE expressed concerns about what could potentially happen. Maybe not to the level of "screaming" about it but concerned.

[Inhogswetrust]

Inhogswetrust, I can see Scott in my minds eye running around as a youngster getting into all kinds of scrapes and troubles simple because he didn't realize that his actions had consequences. I kid, I kid.

A little levity is always good.