Want to unionize and be an employee instead of an athlete?

[Hawgon]

Well, alright say hello to the IRS.  It would seem that if student athletes are found to be employees, then there is a good chance that their scholarships will be taxed as income.  It that is the case, they could actually end up owing more in taxes than they "make" from these schools.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/10683398/tax-implications-create-hurdle-players-union

[talley]

Well, alright say hello to the IRS.  It would seem that if student athletes are found to be employees, then there is a good chance that their scholarships will be taxed as income.  It that is the case, they could actually end up owing more in taxes than they "make" from these schools.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/10683398/tax-implications-create-hurdle-players-union

not to mention, who's to say the colleges dont say "fine you can get paid.  I pay you 25,000 a year, but you dont get a scholarship."  Now what?  You just screwed yourself because the cost of your education is going to be more then what they are willing to pay you.  I mean, if you think about how much they pay them now, in schooling, rent, food, clothes, medical, etc. for someone who sits on the bench and doesn't play a down.  You're not worth the money when it becomes a "buisness" meaning you will get MUCH less then what all of that is worth.  Just greedy to me....

[dagnamit]

Some players will get a million bucks to play college football .... no doubt in my mind.

There will be a starting value for each position.

Either get on the bus or get off. Players will make more than coaches and I can't disagree with that.

[EastexHawg]

It would be pure entertainment to see the look on some of these new unionized employees' faces when they get their W-2s.

"What?  You say I gotta pay income tax on the $50,000 the school paid me as a football employee for last year?  But...but...but...I needed all that money to pay tuition, to pay the rent, to eat...

This is so unfair."

[Hawgon]

Some players will get a million bucks to play college football .... no doubt in my mind.

There will be a starting value for each position.

Either get on the bus or get off. Players will make more than coaches and I can't disagree with that.

No, that isn't going to happen.  State legislatures will not stand for that and will mandate that their state schools will not hire athletes or will make the schools get out of football altogether.

That is the thing you have to remember.  That football player would not be an employee of the University of Arkansas.  He would be an employee of the State of Arkansas.  So, you honestly think that the people and their representatives in the state house are going to tolerate 18 year old state employees making one million dollars a year?  Or for that matter, the state maximum right now of $235,000 or whatever it is. 

It isn't going to happen.

[ricepig]

Some players will get a million bucks to play college football .... no doubt in my mind.

There will be a starting value for each position.

Either get on the bus or get off. Players will make more than coaches and I can't disagree with that.

Poor fishing attempt.....

[Hawgon]

It would be pure entertainment to see the look on some of these new unionized employees' faces when they get their W-2s.

"What?  You say I gotta pay income tax on the $50,000 the school paid me as a football employee for last year?  But...but...but...I needed all that money to pay tuition, to pay the rent, to eat...

This is so unfair."

Most of these kids, coming from the backgrounds they do, think that taxes are something you get instead of having to pay, and that tax time is something to look forward to instead of dread.

[Wildhog]

Either get on the bus or get off. Players will make more than coaches and I can't disagree with that.

In your fantasy, many would get off the bus.  Enjoy your crappy NFL D league.

I'll just go be an NFL fan and watch the vastly superior product.

[EastexHawg]

I love college football at least as much as the next guy, but if this is upheld and goes down the path that seems likely, I sincerely hope state legislatures and boards of regents vote to disband major college football programs. 

Let the entrepreneur players who think they are so valuable straight out of high school become instant free agents who are eligible to try out for NFL, CFL, or other professional teams...without 3-5 years of taxpayer and foundation contributor paid nutrition and strength training nor coaching/skills development from the Sabans and Spurriers of the world.

[dagnamit]

The door is cracked open. You are going to pay the market price for these guys to put on a show for you.

They will gladly pay the IRS.

Pros do it everyday. You do it every day.

I said this would happen a few years ago and you guys scoffed.

Either you will pay them to play or they will go to another institution that will. Coaches do it now.

I don't blame them................... it is about time. NFL B is coming.

[dagnamit]

Poor fishing attempt.....

No fishing my friend. It is just business.

[GTOWNHOG]

If they are employees, they will have to pay Federal Income Taxes, Arkansas state income taxes, Social Security taxes, Medicare taxes, in addition to buying their own health insurance.   

The other part of this is that the state of Arkansas would have to pay for workman's compensation insurance, matching social security contributions, unemployment insurance and the rest of it.  Would they also have to pay in to the State Employee retirement system?

One other thing....If the athletes are employees and are PAID, then they might consider states that have NO STATE INCOME TAX in making their decision on where to attend college.  Florida and Tennessee would have a huge advantage in recruiting because they have no state income tax.

I would hate to see this happen, and if it does I will seriously re-evaluate my support of collegiate athletics.  WE already have PRO football, which I do not support by buying tickets or attending games.   

[Hawgon]

I love college football at least as much as the next guy, but if this is upheld and goes down the path that seems likely, I sincerely hope state legislatures and boards of regents vote to disband major college football programs. 

Let the entrepreneur players who think they are so valuable straight out of high school become instant free agents who are eligible to try out for NFL, CFL, or other professional teams...without 3-5 years of taxpayer and foundation contributor paid nutrition and strength training nor coaching/skills development from the Sabans and Spurriers of the world.

Yeah, instead of playing in front of 100,000 people in SEC stadiums and being treated like kings, six or eight years playing in deserted high school stadiums for the Tulsa Drillbits making $600 a week with a $25 per diem will do them some good.  Instead of chartered jets, they can take broken down ex-Greyhound charters on fifteen hour bus rides. 

Hey, it works for MLB, football may as well get with the times.

[WilsonHog]

If this comes to pass, I hope the university presidents lobby the NCAA to increase admission requirements for all athletes.

"Hey, what are you trying to make us? Vanderbilt??"

Yep. Can't cut the academic mustard, matters not if you run a 4.3 40 and bench 350. Hit the skids to the nearest community college or juco.

[Hawgon]

The door is cracked open. You are going to pay the market price for these guys to put on a show for you.

They will gladly pay the IRS.

Pros do it everyday. You do it every day.

I said this would happen a few years ago and you guys scoffed.

Either you will pay them to play or they will go to another institution that will. Coaches do it now.

I don't blame them................... it is about time. NFL B is coming.

Well, then tell me how many minor league baseball players are getting rich?  It isn't going to happen.  Once these kids graduate high school, no one will even know who they are, much less pay money to come see them.

[dagnamit]

Well, then tell me how many minor league baseball players are getting rich?  It isn't going to happen.  Once these kids graduate high school, no one will even know who they are, much less pay money to come see them.

Pro football players used to play for the fun of the game and have a full time job to pay bills. Thing change and change is coming to how college players are compensated. Calling them student athletes has been a joke for 10 years now.

[Pigsknuckles]

Snip...I'll just go be an NFL fan and watch the vastly superior product.

I'm guessing that NFL management will be more than interested in the effect this ruling may have on their "farm system". Under some of the posted scenarios, the vastly superior product you speak of could well be getting less bang for the buck from the available talent pool.

[dagnamit]

If this comes to pass, I hope the university presidents lobby the NCAA to increase admission requirements for all athletes.

This is a great idea.... I love it. I wish they would do it for all admission requirements. I figure the president would freak out if they saw the enrollment drop by half.

[WilsonHog]

This is a great idea.... I love it. I wish they would do it for all admission requirements. I figure the president would freak out if they saw the enrollment drop by half.

Oh, it won't happen. As it is, colleges and universities are tripping over each other to afford some guy who couldnt write a critical analysis with a gun to his head the opportunity to earn a college degree while sitting in his pajamas at home drinking a 40-ounce.

[online-with-swine]

What would be the price tag for the all the free training, personally tailored nutrition regimens, tutors, food, etc they get now.  Let them start paying for all that and then let them see how much they like it.

[online-with-swine]

I'm guessing that NFL management will be more than interested in the effect this ruling may have on their "farm system". Under some of the posted scenarios, the vastly superior product you speak of could well be getting less bang for the buck from the available talent pool.

That is a facet of this that some people are overlooking.  The nfl , as it stands now, gets a free farm system where they can count on the athletes getting top notch training and exposure without them putting in a dime.  Also, they get 3-5 years worth of evaluation on these guys.

[Hawgon]

Well, if they are employees, I guess that they can pretty much work a full time job, just like the NFL.  No more rules about 20 hours or practice a week.  Curfews and contracts prohibiting risky behavior can be instituted.  Oh....crap I have to stop it.  It is too stupid to even be contemplated.  There is simply no way that colleges can stay in the athletics business at all if the athletes are employees.  It just can't be done.  They wouldn't even do it at places like Alabama of FSU.  It just isn't going to happen.  It can't be done.

If this all really does come to pass, it means minor league football.  It means that most of these kids will not only fail to get college educations, they will fall to complete obscurity.

[Hawgon]

They are putting in more than 20 hours per week. And there are rules involving curfews, risky behavior, where they can live, what they can post on social media. A big part of the NLRB decision dealt with all that.

Oh, you misunderstood, I mean year around.  Maybe they get a few weeks off like the NFL does, but that is completely at the discretion of their employers.

[Hawgon]

It already is like that. Or do you believe the "voluntary" summer workouts are actually optional?

And do you believe that being a college student who plays football is not easier than being a professional athlete? 

[oldhawg]

Those who have said "take a wait and see attitude" are probably offering the best advice.

However, worst casing it, if University of Arkansas football goes the way of the Ivy League or the Service Academies regarding scholarships, I will still be an avid Razorback fan.  I'm just not sure I want to see "pay for play" beyond tuition scholarships at the collegiate level. 

Maybe it is time to return the emphasis in sports at universities to an extracurricular status instead of preparing student athletes for competition at the next level.  Perhaps meaningful ways to market the University of Arkansas could be found other than on ESPN.   

[Hawgon]

Those who have said "take a wait and see attitude" are probably offering the best advice.

However, worst casing it, if University of Arkansas football goes the way of the Ivy League or the Service Academies regarding scholarships, I will still be an avid Razorback fan.  I'm just not sure I want to see "pay for play" beyond tuition scholarships at the collegiate level. 

Maybe it is time to return the emphasis in sports at universities to an extracurricular status instead of preparing student athletes for competition at the next level.  Perhaps meaningful ways to market the University of Arkansas could be found other than on ESPN.   

I figure it would go that way.  There would be college sports, but no more scholarships and no pay.  There would be minor leagues for those who wanted to get paid.

[oldhawg]

I figure it would go that way.  There would be college sports, but no more scholarships and no pay.  There would be minor leagues for those who wanted to get paid.

We are accustomed to that in baseball, and to a lesser extent basketball.  Maybe time for the NFL to start footing the bill for development of players in a minor league system.  Times have changed, kids need a system to maximize their potential whether it's instant gratification through a minor league football system, or delayed gratification by going the university route.

Eighteen year old should have the option of choice, hopefully along with a little timely and influential advice.  It will be interesting to see what comes of all of this five or ten years down the road. 

[WilsonHog]

Those who have said "take a wait and see attitude" are probably offering the best advice.

However, worst casing it, if University of Arkansas football goes the way of the Ivy League or the Service Academies regarding scholarships, I will still be an avid Razorback fan.  I'm just not sure I want to see "pay for play" beyond tuition scholarships at the collegiate level. 

Maybe it is time to return the emphasis in sports at universities to an extracurricular status instead of preparing student athletes for competition at the next level.  Perhaps meaningful ways to market the University of Arkansas could be found other than on ESPN.   

I agree, and I would be perfectly fine with that. Wouldn't change my level of support at all.

I realize I'm probably several decades behind the times, but I still hold onto the principle of amateur athletics. Playing for the love of the game, playing because being a part of a college atmosphere means something to you. That's why I still have such an affinity for the Ivy League and the service academies. I see them as still having everything in proper perspective. To a lesser degree, the same with Vandy, Stanford, and Northwestern. Perhaps Notre Dame (I loved the Cal I rule), but they may have sold out and lessened their standards.

[Ash]

Well, if they are employees, I guess that they can pretty much work a full time job, just like the NFL.  No more rules about 20 hours or practice a week.  Curfews and contracts prohibiting risky behavior can be instituted.  Oh....crap I have to stop it.  It is too stupid to even be contemplated.  There is simply no way that colleges can stay in the athletics business at all if the athletes are employees.  It just can't be done.  They wouldn't even do it at places like Alabama of FSU.  It just isn't going to happen.  It can't be done.

If this all really does come to pass, it means minor league football.  It means that most of these kids will not only fail to get college educations, they will fall to complete obscurity.

You say that as if 90% of the major sport college athletes actually get educations now (here's a hint: they don't).

[talley]

Eighteen year old should have the option of choice, hopefully along with a little timely and influential advice.  It will be interesting to see what comes of all of this five or ten years down the road.

they have a choice!  Play football and get treated like a god for four years.  Get to show your talents on a national level and get paid millions for it, without paying anything and getting a 100,000 education for free along with food, clothing, training, diet information, healthcare, etc. for FREE! 

You don't have to play football!  You want money out of high school? go get a job! You want to be the man, get an education, and have a better chance than 99 percent of us to become a millionaire in four years? go play college football.  That's it.  The end. Sounds like a no brainer to me.

[Hogwild]

If they are employees, they will have to pay Federal Income Taxes, Arkansas state income taxes, Social Security taxes, Medicare taxes, in addition to buying their own health insurance.   

The other part of this is that the state of Arkansas would have to pay for workman's compensation insurance, matching social security contributions, unemployment insurance and the rest of it.  Would they also have to pay in to the State Employee retirement system?

One other thing....If the athletes are employees and are PAID, then they might consider states that have NO STATE INCOME TAX in making their decision on where to attend college.  Florida and Tennessee would have a huge advantage in recruiting because they have no state income tax.

I would hate to see this happen, and if it does I will seriously re-evaluate my support of collegiate athletics.  WE already have PRO football, which I do not support by buying tickets or attending games.

You nearly dead on, but there would be no social security taxes for public schools. 

While Florida and Tennessee players would haven't to pay taxes to their states, those players would have to pay taxes in states like Alabama, Arkansas, and Louisiana if they played road games there. 

[EastexHawg]

So the response from those who claim to love college football to this ruling is "Screw it, let's blow the whole thing up."

Yes, that would be exactly my solution. 

I think the first rattle out of the box would be the perfect time for a game of chicken with the new breed of entrepreneur players.  "You want to be paid to play football?  Fine, try going to the NFL straight out of high school."  Let's find out who is really holding the best hand at this poker table.

Then, a few years down the road after C.J. and Julio and DeMarcus have had enough time to see how many of their cohorts have hit it big with as professionals without the benefit of college coaching and strength/conditioning programs....perspectives may change.

In 2010 only 22 of 120 Division 1 athletic departments made a profit.  At those schools, the average profit was $7.4 million.  The other 98 schools showed an average loss of $11.6 million.  The idea that schools are making billions of dollars off athletics is ridiculous, and administrators know it.  Maybe it's time the players learned that fact the hard way.

So yes, I would be 100% in favor of looking across the chess board at the unionized players and saying, "Fine.  If that's the way you want it, we're dropping scholarship sports programs.  Your move."

[Hogwild]

Yes, that would be exactly my solution. 

I think the first rattle out of the box would be the perfect time for a game of chicken with the new breed of entrepreneur players.  "You want to be paid to play football?  Fine, try going to the NFL straight out of high school."  Let's find out who is really holding the best hand at this poker table.

The NFL doesn't allow players to come straight out of high school, you have to wait three years.  I doubt they are going to change that rule any time soon, no matter what is going on in the NCAA.

[Wildhog]

The NFL doesn't allow players to come straight out of high school, you have to wait three years.  I doubt they are going to change that rule any time soon, no matter what is going on in the NCAA.

So they should be suing the NFL.

[Hogwild]

So they should be suing the NFL.

they would lose

[Wildhog]

they would lose

So they should have a coke and a smile.

[EastexHawg]

The NFL doesn't allow players to come straight out of high school, you have to wait three years.  I doubt they are going to change that rule any time soon, no matter what is going on in the NCAA.

That sounds like the players' problem to me.  Perhaps something they should consider before they start making demands...

[Atlhogfan1]

If this comes to pass, I hope the university presidents lobby the NCAA to increase admission requirements for all athletes.

"Hey, what are you trying to make us? Vanderbilt??"

Yep. Can't cut the academic mustard, matters not if you run a 4.3 40 and bench 350. Hit the skids to the nearest community college or juco.

Yes.  Require the athletes to meet the same requirements other students do.

Yes, that would be exactly my solution. 

I think the first rattle out of the box would be the perfect time for a game of chicken with the new breed of entrepreneur players.  "You want to be paid to play football?  Fine, try going to the NFL straight out of high school."  Let's find out who is really holding the best hand at this poker table.

Then, a few years down the road after C.J. and Julio and DeMarcus have had enough time to see how many of their cohorts have hit it big with as professionals without the benefit of college coaching and strength/conditioning programs....perspectives may change.

In 2010 only 22 of 120 Division 1 athletic departments made a profit.  At those schools, the average profit was $7.4 million.  The other 98 schools showed an average loss of $11.6 million.  The idea that schools are making billions of dollars off athletics is ridiculous, and administrators know it.  Maybe it's time the players learned that fact the hard way.

So yes, I would be 100% in favor of looking across the chess board at the unionized players and saying, "Fine.  If that's the way you want it, we're dropping scholarship sports programs.  Your move."

East is right.  You can't compromise and go to a middle ground as that wouldn't be the end game for those pushing for athletes to be paid.  This goes beyond college sports.  Can't get into too much of a discussion because this isn't the Politics forum.  But the support of athletes being paid is racially and politically divided.  This is coming from the still growing multi generational entitlement society who want their fair share.  There should be no compromising or middle ground but unfortunately there will be.  This may finally result in the breaking up of the NCAA with the wealthiest D1 football and basketball programs breaking away to form their own division.  Going to be interesting to see what conferences like the B1G and ACC do.  Football factories like Oh St and FSU vs NW, Wake, UVa and the elitists at UNC and Wisconsin.  Should be interesting infighting between those who want to destroy the façade of not having lost perspective when it comes to athletics vs those who want to go the other direction and try regain some semblance of integrity closer to what the Ivy League has with their no athletic scholarships. 

[Hawgon]

If they are employees, why do they have to be students at all?  Why not just get hired guns?  Why limit yourselves to kids?  Hire 30 year olds who weren't quite good enough for the NFL or maybe played a few years in the NFL and are now bouncing around.

Those are the kinds of issues one gets to when you start talking about employees verses student athletes.  There really is no way to do it within the current system.  Maybe, we could have colleges sponsor teams, but it is hard to figure how that fits into the role of higher education.

[hogsanity]

The issue with paying players is what it is going to do to MOST college players.  Lets assume for a minute that each d1 school signs 25 players every year.  That's right around 3100 signees per year.  Out of those, how many are really worth paying?  For every 5 star rb, there is the 2 start Guard that may end up playing by the time he is a rs jr or rs sr.  So, while the rb may get paid, lets say $40K per season, how much is the back guard going to get? Are they both going to get their school paid for AND get cash? 

[WilsonHog]

Define "easier" for us. Because in some regards I'm guessing playing in the NFL might be easier than being a college football player.

Because it's a philosophical position for some, Scott. Certainly is for me.

I have no interest in watching our universities and colleges become quasi-professional leagues, minor leagues for the NBA and NFL. That's why I detest the one-and-done rule; I'm not interested in hearing arguments of the ability of an 18-year old to play a year and go pro. The sanctity of the university setting, as warped and watered down as we've allowed it to become, is still greater in my view than the needs of an individual student...or student-athlete.

[Hawgon]

It will also be fun to watch them have to hire accountants to figure all the taxes they owe from playing away games in other states.  Better report those bowl gifts too.  Recruiting trips are now taxed as well. 

[Hawgon]

They already serve as de facto minor leagues for those sports. But I understand what you're saying.

At times, I think the D-III model would be much better for the entire NCAA. But with the cow already out of the barn, I can't see downsizing the revenue sports to that degree.

What is in it for the schools?  What is the downside to downsizing sports?  Most of them lose money on them anyway.  Even the profitable ones only average seven or eight million dollars in profit.  It is mostly money in and money out with a zero net return if not a negative one.  So, what is in it for the schools to put up with all the extra headaches and heartaches this would bring them? 

[Mike_e]

If you want a chuckle think about the top monied programs fighting it out with the ones that are going broke over a salary cap and luxury taxes.

If your school is in a major metro area and the stars in your program have far more opportunity of making the endorsement dollar?  Whoa, gotta figure that in too.  Oh and hey, just who is going to keep up with how much those players make?

Just how big can a practice squad be?

What do you mean texas has to kick in money to texas tech because they spent more?  Hey, texas is supposed to own TT.

[EastexHawg]

One more thought...

I don't want to hear anyone who tells us how fans need to be willing to pay higher ticket prices, and pay at higher contribution levels because of how hard it is and how much it costs to have a competitive program these days....

Turn around and make the argument that the players need to be paid because the universities are already rolling in billions of dollars from sports.

[Hogwild]

The issue with paying players is what it is going to do to MOST college players.  Lets assume for a minute that each d1 school signs 25 players every year.  That's right around 3100 signees per year.  Out of those, how many are really worth paying?  For every 5 star rb, there is the 2 start Guard that may end up playing by the time he is a rs jr or rs sr.  So, while the rb may get paid, lets say $40K per season, how much is the back guard going to get? Are they both going to get their school paid for AND get cash?

You are asking the wrong questions, it should be how much are you going to pay the women's golf and swimming teams?  Title IX

[Atlhogfan1]

What is in it for the schools?  What is the downside to downsizing sports?  Most of them lose money on them anyway.  Even the profitable ones only average seven or eight million dollars in profit.  It is mostly money in and money out with a zero net return if not a negative one.  So, what is in it for the schools to put up with all the extra headaches and heartaches this would bring them?

Athletic success has shown to bring increases in applications and enrollment.  It is a way to advertise and brand your university.  Dayton will see benefits of this E8 run.  Athletics helps keeps the connection with alumni and other potential donors.  But I don't know if it is worth the headaches this could bring. 

[Atlhogfan1]

You are asking the wrong questions, it should be how much are you going to pay the women's golf and swimming teams?  Title IX

Not wrong questions.  Just some of the many questions.  Your questions and sanity's are both relative. 

[Hawgon]

Athletic success has shown to bring increases in applications and enrollment.  It is a way to advertise and brand your university.  Dayton will see benefits of this E8 run.  Athletics helps keeps the connection with alumni and other potential donors.  But I don't know if it is worth the headaches this could bring. 

If you did away with athletics on this level, it would mostly even out.  Think of the marketing program you could buy for the same amount of money most schools lose on athletics every year.  You could be running adds during the Super Bowl for your school.

[Theolesnort]

Instead of trying to reach an equitable solution for both sides, you'd do that?

Why are people retreating to the extremes over this issue? There is a wide swath of middle ground where the sides could meet.

How's that hypothetical can of worms looking like now Scott. And in answer to your second question Scott that is what people do now a days. Look at congress for an example, it can't govern now a days for want of it being more important to make the other party look bad than get together and find solutions of a beneficial and equatable nature. Years ago there was a Representative by the name of Everett Dirkson who called his opponent across the aisle the loyal opposition. As Speaker he would set down with them and hammer out a solution that all could accept. There is just to much rancor, bitterness hate and a lack of good will to do that now it seems. We seem to not have the ability to handle slippery wiggle worms anymore.