NLRB Rules on NU

[Wildhog]

Great.  Then they are free to continue to accept that as compensation.  But it's not free, and it's not an education necessarily.  Unless they're giving degrees for one year of school now.

We have had our fair share of attrition, but there are still plenty of players getting their degrees.  The majority are there long enough to earn a degree.

[Fatty McGee]

Bill was allowed to market his talents.  The kids should be allowed to, as well.  You and I are very close in our stance, but demonizing the executives does nothing but make you look bitter.

It's the same as folks wanting to tax the rich more and more and more and more. 

I'm not bitter at all.  I'm simply pointing out the folly of all this sanctimony about how horrible it is that someone (in this case the players) dare make money in this honorable system designed to give underprivileged kids an education.  Or the sanctimony about the principles of amateurism, blah blah blah. 

[Fatty McGee]

We have had our fair share of attrition, but there are still plenty of players getting their degrees.  The majority are there long enough to earn a degree.

True.  I'm just pointing out that the school isn't offering a degree.  It's only offering a one year scholarship, revocable at a coach's whim.  Maybe if the players do unionize, they negotiate for a four year irrevocable scholarship?  Then the university can ask itself what its true mission is - using them for marketing purposes or offering a degree.

[Fatty McGee]

Response from Mike Slive:

"The SEC does not believe that full-time students participating in intercollegiate athletics are employees of the universities they attend," Slive said. "We will continue to actively pursue increased support for student-athletes by seeking to modify the NCAA governance process to permit changes that are fair to student-athletes and also consistent with what we believe are the appropriate principles of amateurism."

What else could he say? 

[Wildhog]

True.  I'm just pointing out that the school isn't offering a degree.  It's only offering a one year scholarship, revocable at a coach's whim. 

It is what you make it.  All they offer is the opportunity- an opportunity that many would do anything to get.

[WilsonHog]

What else could he say?

You tell me. I don't much care either way, I was just reporting it.

Although, on the whole I tend to side with universities.

[Fatty McGee]

You tell me. I don't much care either way, I was just reporting it.

I know you were.  And I was simply noting that he had nothing else he could say.  His job is to protect the status quo.  After all, he made $1.6 million last year doing it.  Which is great for him, and I'd probably try to protect that pay too.

[Fatty McGee]

It is what you make it.  All they offer is the opportunity- an opportunity that many would do anything to get.

That's the thing - even if you do your very best to make the best of it, if the coach doesn't want you, that opportunity disappears.  Which is fine, if that's what you've negotiated. 

[EastexHawg]

That's their choice, though, isn't it?  Just like we all make choices.

Sure it would be their choice if that rule/law was ever passed.  Plenty of ultra-intelligent, financially savvy high school phenoms...if even in their own minds...would probably decide that they are just as ready to play NFL football straight out of Sticky Wickets High School, after three or four years of tutelage under Coach Grady Hinkelfinger and staff, as they would be after spending four or five years being coached by Nick Saban and the Alabama staff.

They can probably buy some barbells and do some situps and pushups and be just as physically ready as the guys who go through the Bama or Arkansas or Texas strength and conditioning programs, too.

Since playing for colleges currently offers these "slaves" no benefits as we've been told...

[Fatty McGee]

Sure it would be their choice if that rule/law was ever passed.  Plenty of ultra-intelligent, financially savvy high school phenoms...if even in their own minds...would probably decide that they are just as ready to play NFL football straight out of Sticky Wickets High School, after three or four years of tutelage under Coach Grady Hinkelfinger and staff, as they would be after spending four or five years being coached by Nick Saban and the Alabama staff.

They can probably buy some barbells and do some situps and pushups and be just as physically ready as the guys who to through the Bama or Arkansas or Texas strength and conditioning programs, too.

Since playing for colleges currently offers these "slaves" no benefits as we've been told...

Well, I don't buy the "slaves" argument, because they do get a benefit.  Not as much as the university trumpets regarding the value of the scholarship, but they're certainly not slaves. 

[WilsonHog]

Sure it would be their choice if that rule/law was ever passed.  Plenty of ultra-intelligent, financially savvy high school phenoms...if even in their own minds...would probably decide that they are just as ready to play NFL football straight out of Sticky Wickets High School, after three or four years of tutelage under Coach Grady Hinkelfinger and staff, as they would be after spending four or five years being coached by Nick Saban and the Alabama staff.

They can probably buy some barbells and do some situps and pushups and be just as physically ready as the guys who go through the Bama or Arkansas or Texas strength and conditioning programs, too.

Since playing for colleges currently offers these "slaves" no benefits as we've been told...

How about a compromise? "Son, we'd love you to come play for us. We'll give you access to first rate training facilities, top-level coaching, exposure to NFL scouts, and the opportunity to earn a college degree if football doesn't work out."

"All you have to do is pay your own way. That's not gonna be a problem, is it?"

[Fatty McGee]

That's a great opening offer.  Maybe some players will take it.  What's important is that another school can offer more if it wants.

[EastexHawg]

Well, I don't buy the "slaves" argument, because they do get a benefit.  Not as much as the university trumpets regarding the value of the scholarship, but they're certainly not slaves.

What would say four or five years of a free ride at Texas or Alabama would be worth in terms of dollars?  Now add in four or five years of strength and conditioning, tutors...and the coaching instruction of Nick Saban, Kirby Smart, and staff. 

How about the name recognition DeMeco Ryans and Mark Ingram enjoyed after playing at Alabama as opposed to straight out of high school.  I think Ingram signed for something like $7 million as a rookie.  Do you think he would have commanded the same salary if he had signed with the Saints right after graduating from high school in Michigan?

Let's try to put an approximate dollar value on what these players are receiving.  What would a year of tuition, fees, room, board, and all the other extras cost the average Joe to attend Northwestern if he wasn't on scholarship?

[WilsonHog]

That's a great opening offer.  Maybe some players will take it.  What's important is that another school can offer more if it wants.

I'd take it all the way back. I'd applaud every university coast-to-coast being Ivy League.

[sportster365]

Yep, and after they get cut after going pro straight out of high school good luck with getting cushy, well paying jobs in their home states because they played for the Razorbacks...or the Aggies...or the Buckeyes.

I'm sure their high school diplomas will open countless doors.

Then they can do just like any other average American. Either make it happen with a High School Diploma or try their luck in college. It's the Universities and Professional Ball Clubs at risk and chances something to lose. Half of those kids don't have much to start out with anyway so taking way their opportunity to go pro doesn't change the status of their current circumstances the least bit.

[EastexHawg]

Then they can do just like any other average American. Either make it happen with a High School Diploma or try their luck in college. It's the Universities and Professional Ball Clubs at risk and chances something to lose. Half of those kids don't have much to start out with anyway so taking way their opportunity to go pro doesn't change the status of their current circumstances the least bit.

Except the players won't be eligible to play college football after declaring themselves pros out of high school...so if they want to "try their luck in college" they will be paying their own way.  But since that's apparently such a small benefit...as the players who want to unionize and the fans on this board supporting their position have told us...forking over the cash or taking out loans to pay their way through Northwestern or Alabama shouldn't be a problem...right?

[sportster365]

Except the players won't be eligible to play college football after declaring themselves pros out of high school...so if they want to "try their luck in college" they will be paying their own way.  But since that's apparently such a small benefit...as the players who want to unionize and the fans on this board supporting their position have told us...forking over the cash or taking out loans to pay their way through Northwestern or Alabama shouldn't be a problem...right?

Exactly as I stated before that's what the average American is expected to do. Why not them?

[EastexHawg]

Exactly as I stated before that's what the average American is expected to do. Why not them?

College football players receiving their educations via scholarships, as well as receiving 4-5 years of coaching/instruction from guys like Saban and Pat Fitzgerald, are far from "average Americans".  I think that is the point.  The "average American" high school football player doesn't get a free ride at universities where it would cost $150,000 to $300,000 to attend for 4-5 years, nor are his skills developed by some of the most prominent football minds in the country.

The arguments made by these players and some of their supporters remind me of the old joke..."Kids, get away from your parents and leave home now while you still know everything!"

[Fatty McGee]

What would say four or five years of a free ride at Texas or Alabama would be worth in terms of dollars?  Now add in four or five years of strength and conditioning, tutors...and the coaching instruction of Nick Saban, Kirby Smart, and staff. 

How about the name recognition DeMeco Ryans and Mark Ingram enjoyed after playing at Alabama as opposed to straight out of high school.  I think Ingram signed for something like $7 million as a rookie.  Do you think he would have commanded the same salary if he had signed with the Saints right after graduating from high school in Michigan?

Let's try to put an approximate dollar value on what these players are receiving.  What would a year of tuition, fees, room, board, and all the other extras cost the average Joe to attend Northwestern if he wasn't on scholarship?

We'll find out.  That's the point isn't it - let's see what that value is.

[Fatty McGee]

College football players receiving their educations via scholarships, as well as receiving 4-5 years of coaching/instruction from guys like Saban and Pat Fitzgerald, are far from "average Americans".  I think that is the point.  The "average American" high school football player doesn't get a free ride at universities where it would cost $150,000 to $300,000 to attend for 4-5 years, nor does are his skills developed by some of the most prominent football minds in the country.

The arguments made by these players and some of their supporters remind me of the old joke..."Kids, get away from your parents and leave home now while you still know everything!"

The "average American" high school kid doesn't have the skills these players do, so that comparison doesn't mean much.  I don't know what you do, but I assume you're good at it.  So me going to you and saying "well the average person doing that job doesn't get paid as much as you, so we're dropping what you get" isn't really useful. 

[sportster365]

College football players receiving their educations via scholarships, as well as receiving 4-5 years of coaching/instruction from guys like Saban and Pat Fitzgerald, are far from "average Americans".  I think that is the point.  The "average American" high school football player doesn't get a free ride at universities where it would cost $150,000 to $300,000 to attend for 4-5 years, nor does are his skills developed by some of the most prominent football minds in the country.

The arguments made by these players and some of their supporters remind me of the old joke..."Kids, get away from your parents and leave home now while you still know everything!"

If they choose to try their luck on an NFL scout team and fail then that's their decision to live with. I'm sure most can accept that. High School baseball players are faced with that very same decision all the time.

[Fatty McGee]

Except the players won't be eligible to play college football after declaring themselves pros out of high school...so if they want to "try their luck in college" they will be paying their own way.  But since that's apparently such a small benefit...as the players who want to unionize and the fans on this board supporting their position have told us...forking over the cash or taking out loans to pay their way through Northwestern or Alabama shouldn't be a problem...right?

Maybe it's a terrible bet.  But as adults, that's a choice we all get to make.  It may be a terrible idea financially for a really bright kid to go into the Army when he could make millions elsewhere.  But as an 18 year old, that's his option. 

[Inhogswetrust]

Expect Obama to announce a sharp increase in employment numbers for the quarter.

Now that's a funny post even from an old barner!

[Fatty McGee]

I'd take it all the way back. I'd applaud every university coast-to-coast being Ivy League.

I'm with you.  But then the Ivys don't need the marketing to attract students the way these schools do.  That's what people forget about athletics - they're purely marketing for the schools.  At the D-1 level at least. 

[Inhogswetrust]

They don't have to offer any scholarships.  It's a university.  If you don't value a free college education, then don't go.

This is why they just need to be allowed to go to the NFL whenever they want.  It's an arbitrary and unnecessary blockade. 

I agree 100%.

[Inhogswetrust]

Yes, how dare the players want that!  Who do they think they are?  Coaches?  Bowl Execs?  TV execs?  Why can't they wait for awhile while others make millions off their efforts knowing they are taking huge physical risks?  The nerve!

A LOT of NON unionized organizations that make millions have workers taking risks and giving effort for their "employer" and those workers aren't making much.

[Inhogswetrust]

True.  I'm just pointing out that the school isn't offering a degree.  It's only offering a one year scholarship, revocable at a coach's whim.  Maybe if the players do unionize, they negotiate for a four year irrevocable scholarship?  Then the university can ask itself what its true mission is - using them for marketing purposes or offering a degree.

And the player would have NO incentive to perform on the field. Almost all scholarship recipients have to perform at something or do something to continue to receive their scholarship AND it usually is tied to what their scholarship is given for.

[Inhogswetrust]

That's the thing - even if you do your very best to make the best of it, if the coach doesn't want you, that opportunity disappears.  Which is fine, if that's what you've negotiated. 

Same in most organizations. IF the boss doesn't want you then bye.

[sportster365]

Maybe it's a terrible bet.  But as adults, that's a choice we all get to make.  It may be a terrible idea financially for a really bright kid to go into the Army when he could make millions elsewhere.  But as an 18 year old, that's his option.

Probaly not the wisest decision, but not necessarily a terrible bet either. If they choose to forego college and tryout for the NFL and fail, then their back at the starting block. Not below it or above it. From the block any other person wanting to attend college without a scholarship starts from.

[Fatty McGee]

A LOT of NON unionized organizations that make millions have workers taking risks and giving effort for their "employer" and those workers aren't making much.

Give me an example comparable to the value of players in college sports, where the employees can't go to another job in the industry, can't unionize, don't get workers comp benefits, etc.

[Fatty McGee]

Same in most organizations. IF the boss doesn't want you then bye.

You just don't get the ability to freely negotiate thing, but I don't think you ever will.  I think it's just fundamentally opposite of your world view.

[Dumb ole famrboy]

What would say four or five years of a free ride at Texas or Alabama would be worth in terms of dollars?  Now add in four or five years of strength and conditioning, tutors...and the coaching instruction of Nick Saban, Kirby Smart, and staff. 

How about the name recognition DeMeco Ryans and Mark Ingram enjoyed after playing at Alabama as opposed to straight out of high school.  I think Ingram signed for something like $7 million as a rookie.  Do you think he would have commanded the same salary if he had signed with the Saints right after graduating from high school in Michigan?

Let's try to put an approximate dollar value on what these players are receiving.  What would a year of tuition, fees, room, board, and all the other extras cost the average Joe to attend Northwestern if he wasn't on scholarship?

This value wouldn't be hard to find. The Athletic Department pays the University's general fund an amount equal to this every year. It may not be the actual general fund of the University that receives these funds but it is paid to one of the funds.

[EastexHawg]

If they choose to try their luck on an NFL scout team and fail then that's their decision to live with. I'm sure most can accept that. High School baseball players are faced with that very same decision all the time.

I can't wait for the CBS, HBO, and ESPN "Outside the Lines" type specials about how Jacoby was such a promising young QB coming out of Massillon High School, then declared for the NFL and tried out for the Browns instead of accepting a scholarship offer from Urban Meyer and Ohio State...and is now pumping gas, selling drugs, or homeless after not making it and having no college scholarship/education to give him the skills to enter the job market.

Oh, the heartbreak...and the callousness of society for not providing a better life for him.

[sportster365]

Same in most organizations. IF the boss doesn't want you then bye.

That's not necessarily true, even in those right to work states, employers can't simply fire an employee at a whim for no reason. As a coach can dismiss a player to free up a schollie for some other youngster they have their eyes on. It's not fair, but its the nature of the beast and goes to show that college athletics aren't primarily focused on educating student athletes as much as they are building winning programs. And I'm sure if this players union thing spreads across the country then issues like this will be addressed.

[Wildhog]

NW's AD should fire all the players for going 1-7 in the B10.

[Josh Goforth]

If they are employees, then the IRS should step in and demand back taxes on all previous schollys.

bp

Doesnt quite work that way with taxes we are talking scholarships and in terms of taxes tuition and education expenses are deductions so it really would not be counted as income anyway.

[Josh Goforth]

This value wouldn't be hard to find. The Athletic Department pays the University's general fund an amount equal to this every year. It may not be the actual general fund of the University that receives these funds but it is paid to one of the funds.

What is the exact dollar value of jerseys, video games, and memorabilia with Mark Ingram or any specific players face, number etc on it? If this comes to less that the amount of what a player is given in training, coaching, facility access etc then I would be extremely surprised.

[sportster365]

What would say four or five years of a free ride at Texas or Alabama would be worth in terms of dollars?  Now add in four or five years of strength and conditioning, tutors...and the coaching instruction of Nick Saban, Kirby Smart, and staff. 

How about the name recognition DeMeco Ryans and Mark Ingram enjoyed after playing at Alabama as opposed to straight out of high school.  I think Ingram signed for something like $7 million as a rookie.  Do you think he would have commanded the same salary if he had signed with the Saints right after graduating from high school in Michigan?

Let's try to put an approximate dollar value on what these players are receiving.  What would a year of tuition, fees, room, board, and all the other extras cost the average Joe to attend Northwestern if he wasn't on scholarship?

EastTex, I think what Fatty is referring to is an economic term called surplus value. It's when the labor or work an "employee" puts in a product or service to add to its value is greater than the amount of compensation they receive. In this case, seeing as how much the NCAA and schools rake in from marketing these games, the scholarship alone doesn't reflect the full value of the athletes work. Therefore producing what is called surplus labor which is simply employee exploitation.

[EastexHawg]

EastTex, I think what Fatty is referring to is an economic term called surplus value. It's when the labor or work an "employee" puts in a product or service to add to its value is greater than the amount of compensation they receive. In this case, seeing as how much the NCAA and schools rake in from marketing these games, the scholarship alone doesn't reflect the full value of the athletes work. Therefore producing what is called surplus labor which is simply employee exploitation.

What is the surplus value of those players' abilities and contributions compared to those of the next tier of potential college athletes?  In other words, how much more money will Arkansas make if Scott Bull is playing QB instead of Joe Ferguson because Joe went pro straight out of Woodlawn High School?

How much less enjoyable for the average fan would Razorback football have been if Cedric Cobbs had declared for the NFL right out of high school and they had had to "endure" watching the much less heralded Fred Talley and Brandon Holmes carry the football for four years instead?

[Josh Goforth]

Nothing in return?  I have a friend who is putting his son through Baylor.  It's costing him $50,000 per year.  I'm not sure about public universities, but some of the stats I looked up online show average costs between $30,000 and $40,000 per year.  I would hardly call a $120,000 to $250,000 education "nothing".  Not to mention those who want to go on to a career in football receive invaluable instruction, nutrition and weight training, and other on the job training as part of the deal.

Ever hear of team physicians?  You think these players don't receive healthcare?

Why do most college students who have jobs work?  To pay their way through school?  Doesn't that "need" disappear when all your tuition, room, board, and so forth are paid by the school as part of your scholarship?  And since your education is 100% paid, as well as your healthcare, might it be possible for your parent(s) to kick in a little spending money? 

Slavery?  Speaking of mental disconnects...

Im with you until the part about why most college students work. No most college kids work to survive, in most cases they have the tuition etc paid for or borrowed in student loans, and work to eat, drink, pay rent and enjoy life a little. 
Some kids have parents that can help and others dont, just depends on the situation.

[EastexHawg]

Im with you until the part about why most college students work. No most college kids work to survive, in most cases they have the tuition etc paid for or borrowed in student loans, and work to eat, drink, pay rent and enjoy life a little. 
Some kids have parents that can help and others dont, just depends on the situation.

Part of "paying your way through school" as I phrased it is paying for rent, food, utilities, etc.  If you are a scholarship football player your room, meals, and other living expenses are paid by the school along with your tuition and fees.  If you can't find a way to "enjoy life a little" when you don't have to worry about any of those expenses you're in a sad state of affairs...but also undoubtedly one of the very few.

[hoghiker]

I'll wait for the dust to settle before I get worked up about college atheletes getting paid their market value. It could happen but I doubt it. Colleges bidding for top talent. Doubt it. I'll admit, I'm opposed to the idea. Many people will be. It short circuits several american myths which most of us cherish. I just don't see it happening.

[Inhogswetrust]

Give me an example comparable to the value of players in college sports, where the employees can't go to another job in the industry, can't unionize, don't get workers comp benefits, etc.

EVERYONE has value. It is up to the organization to decide how much AND what their "pay" should be. IF someone interviewing for a job doesn't like the compensation then they don't have to accept. Besides students don't get to unionize (this isn't over yet for athletes being called employees) and they don't get workers comp. BUT athletes DO receive medical attention. When I was a student twice I had to go to the emergency room of the hospital and the school didn't pay for it (and one of those times I was on scholarship). I knew that before I went there.

[PorkSoda]

Give me an example comparable to the value of players in college sports, where the employees can't go to another job in the industry, can't unionize, don't get workers comp benefits, etc.

pretty soon they will rule that schools have to pay students to attend college and get a degree.  after all they tell students that they have to attend class and complete assignments.  that's an employer/employee relationship.

[Fatty McGee]

EVERYONE has value. It is up to the organization to decide how much AND what their "pay" should be. IF someone interviewing for a job doesn't like the compensation then they don't have to accept. Besides students don't get to unionize (this isn't over yet for athletes being called employees) and they don't get workers comp. BUT athletes DO receive medical attention. When I was a student twice I had to go to the emergency room of the hospital and the school didn't pay for it (and one of those times I was on scholarship). I knew that before I went there.

Per usual you didn't answer my question.

[sportster365]

It short circuits several american myths which most of us cherish.

Please explain? Because this rule epitomizes what most Americans cherish. The idea that skill and hard work should be properly rewarded not suppressed. This rule can epitomize what capitalism is all about, economic individualism.

[PorkSoda]

Please explain? Because this rule epitomizes what most Americans cherish. The idea that skill and hard work should be properly rewarded not suppressed. This rule can epitomize what capitalism is all about, economic individualism.

its supposed to be about getting an education in the field you want to go pro in.  not be pro.

they get a football scholarship to learn about football and prepare them for the workforce (NFL).  the reason schools can afford to teach kids for free is because of ticket sales and TV deals.  otherwise kids would be paying schools to teach them football skills so that they could enter the workforce(NFL).


what about that is hard to understand? 

[Inhogswetrust]

Per usual you didn't answer my question.

Doesn't matter since the idiots at the NLRB, you and few others believe they are employees. 

[Inhogswetrust]

You just don't get the ability to freely negotiate thing, but I don't think you ever will.  I think it's just fundamentally opposite of your world view.

You mean the one where if I run or own an organization I should have a right to do with it as I wish and if you don't like it go do business or whatever you want to elsewhere or start a competing organization. You know the capitalistic one.   

I have a feeling in a hypothetical company I would be a management executive and you would be the union rep.

[sportster365]

You mean the one where if I run or own an organization I should have a right to do with it as I wish and if you don't like it go do business or whatever you want to elsewhere or start a competing organization. You know the capitalistic one.   

I have a feeling in a hypothetical company I would be a management executive and you would be the union rep.

Unless your running a private college, then no you can't run it the way you want to run it. Besides college athletics are in the business of entertaining. They pursue these athletes based on that premise alone. True capitalism allows me the opportunity to market my skills and services to the highest bidder without constraints (free market). True capitalism reinforces competition, so if Alabama can't afford to offer the stipends Arkansas is willing to give then tough luck. That should motivate Alabama to be more creative in ways to generate revenue aside from getting more donors and winning more games.