In defense of critical posters...

[Tooth]

One of the things I wish was better about Hogville, and I know this isn't possible, is for people to try and be a little more objective. It's hard because we all love the Hogs and want to see them do well.

But if they don't do well, it should be OK to try and analyze that and offer ideas about where problem areas are, how they might overcome and address those, and things that we hope happen so that they improve and reach their potential.

Saying a player makes poor decisions is called "bashing."

If my kid brings home a D on a test because he didn't study hard enough, I'm going to talk to him about his poor decisions. Is that "bashing" my kid? To some, I guess it is. And I deserve some blame for that poor grade, too. I'm the "coach" and I didn't have my kid prepared for success so I'm open to criticism as well.

My "recruiting" for a mother of that kid might be fair game as well.

That's just how I see feedback about the team. I don't think that it's "bashing," I think it's kicking around ideas to try and get better.

Of course I guess I could take another approach and just say "My kid's great. That teacher/ref just doesn't like him. He gives A's to the other kid but has it in for my kid."

I might wish for that to be the case, because then I get to be the victim and don't have to accept any responsibility for my kid's failures.

Anyway, it makes me sad that in here, like in our country, we have to throw stones, or kick them, at one another. I love my Hogs (class of 2008) and I love my country (class of the world), but I don't think that they should be given a pass. We have a right to expect more from our teams and more from our country because we ARE a part of both, we do spend our money on both.

[Pork Twain]

Problem is that all some posters do is bitch and it gets old.  Objectivity goes both ways and if you are truly objective, you can see positives as well as negatives.

[hambone]

So you are "objective" when you go awol while we are winning and show back up to whine and moan when we lose?

[JayBell]

Problem is that all some posters do is bitch and it gets old.  Objectivity goes both ways and if you are truly objective, you can see positives as well as negatives.

This goes back to the attitude and rhetoric Tooth is referring to.  If someone is being critical, that doesn't mean they are "bashing" or "bitching."

Obviously not all posters are the same.  There are some truly, overly negative posters just like there are some posters that only ever think it is going right and can't accept any criticism.

The problem, IMO, comes from when EVERYONE who is either positive or negative (depending on the state of Hogville at the time) gets labeled and attacked.  There might have been a few posters that simply didn't like Mike Anderson, but for three weeks anyone who was remotely critical was labeled as a "hater," smited non-stop and attacked in every thread.  That's pointless, unproductive and wrong.

[Breems]

They don't need defending. "Criticism" flows freely on this board.

- Bobby Portis is ineffective at scoring in the low-post.
- Ky Madden was inconsistent in the latter part of the conference season.
- Gulley showed flashes but provided nothing substantial on offense.
- Qualls needs serious work on his handles.

The staff here really isn't that oppressive. Just don't say something stupid like "we have stupid low-IQ players."

[Smithian]

There is a big difference between "Wade/Gulley isn't playing well lately, I hope Anderson starts Bell" and "Dee Wagner/Ky Madden isn't D1 caliber, he should just transfer"

(That Ky Madden thread happened last season. Really.)

[Smithian]

They don't need defending. "Criticism" flows freely on this board.

- Bobby Portis is ineffective at scoring in the low-post.
- Ky Madden was inconsistent in the latter part of the conference season.
- Gulley showed flashes but provided nothing substantial on offense.
- Qualls needs serious work on his handles.

The staff here really isn't that oppressive. Just don't say something stupid like "we have stupid low-IQ players."

Exactly. That's all fine. It's not hard to know what lines not to cross.

[Kevin]

once your labeled, it does not matter what you post.

haters-positive post are ignored
true fans-negative post are ignored.

some people just search out the post, they can rail against

[Breems]

The problem is that even being objective in basketball is subjective.

Opinions are the reason this place exists. It will continue to be a catfight until the end of the human race or the Internet, whichever comes first.

[Dwight_K_Shrute]

I wish all of y'all would just go back to supporting your boy Pell or Buzz or Gus. 

[Tooth]

Problem is that all some posters do is bitch and it gets old.  Objectivity goes both ways and if you are truly objective, you can see positives as well as negatives.

Agree. I am more critical on balance than positive. BUT, credit where credit is due. Ex.:
* Portis is going to be great when he adds weight and confidence. We'll be lucky to have him two more years.
* Madden really grew this year, I never thought he could be that good. Still has work to do.
* While generally I don't know if CMA's demeanor will work, his cool head (lambasted by some, and perhaps rightly SOMETIMES) I think kept his team calm when the storms from 2-6 were roiling.
* They broke through the road wins barrier; only elite teams win a lot on the road, so the step there is big going forward. Still should have won at A&M and Bama, though.

But, once you get a label in here, no one shows any balance when you say good things. You're just a "hater." Some posters aren't real sophisticated.

[Tooth]

once your labeled, it does not matter what you post.

haters-positive post are ignored
true fans-negative post are ignored.

some people just search out the post, they can rail against

+infinity

[Tooth]

I wish all of y'all would just go back to supporting your boy Pell or Buzz or Gus.

Serious question... who is Buzz? Pel sucked. Gus, though... I like him.

[Dwight_K_Shrute]

Serious question... who is Buzz? Pel sucked. Gus, though... I like him.

Buzz is the coach at Marquette that some wanted instead of MA.  He is known for his sideline gyrations as much as anything.

[JayBell]

+infinity

Seconded.

[TNhawgfan]

Negative posts dont get anymore annoying than the constant we're really close posts. I wont even open a thread fcj starts

[Kevin]

madden-very good year, improved in all areas, another year of improvement, and a true pg on the team, he should have a great senior season

portis-very good freshman year, big offseason for him, has a chance to be really good

gulley-good senior season,

kikko-gave us everything he has

wade-made a mid season comeback

clarke- had a great year, really stepped up

[Tooth]

Buzz is the coach at Marquette that some wanted instead of MA.  He is known for his sideline gyrations as much as anything.

Huh, never heard of him. I wanted... hell, I wanted anybody over Pel. (Bashing alert: He was a freakin idiot.) Actually, I had hoped they'd make a run at Brad Stevens, I figured he might want to move up to a power conference. But I had no problem with MA. He'd obviously been a part of big winning here, knew the scene, and in my very limited interactions with him he seems like a great guy. A good person to have in charge.

Having said that, I think a third-year NIT bid was less than we'd hoped. I don't blame him for all of it but you know how it is... the guy at the top takes the heat.

I know BJ Young was a headcase, but honestly, if Marshawn and BJ had hung around for another year, I believe UA would be no worse than an 8 seed in the NCAAT. Oh well.

[PonderinHog]

I try to find common ground where it exists.  I'll reach out across the aisle occasionally.

And yes, we were close.  Damn close.

[hogcard1964]

The problem is that even being objective in basketball is subjective.

Opinions are the reason this place exists. It will continue to be a catfight until the end of the human race or the Internet, whichever comes first.

+10000

If people didn't get pis$ed about our failure, there would be no reason to improve.

[jjdlc]

I have no problem with being critical, as long as you can be positive when the situation warrants it.  I have some critiques for a few of our players, and even our coach at times, but I can also see when they are improving, and giving great effort. What I don't like, and this goes both ways, are the people who insist on calling other posters names or degrading if they offer a differing view

[Letsroll1200]

I'm a big MA supporter and believe that he will get it done at the U of A. I'm not against someone noticing the team struggles and having questions about the direction of the program. We are not all going to agree but we all can be respectful of one another point of view. Their are posters who didn't want MA as coach of the Razorbacks and will never buy into his system. That is fine and they have a right to their opinion. People should be able to express how they feel about the program rather it's good or bad.

[Nipsey Mussle]

So would you say Hogsanity, Sivad, MountieDawg, Cityhog are objective?

If 95+% of what you post is hate, then you aren't being objective... you're just being a hater.

Kevin is objective and he's happy when we win and angry when we lose. That's how it should be.

Remember how quiet it was on here when we won 8 of 9? I guess all those "objective" posters just happened to be "busy."

[Tooth]

So would you say Hogsanity, Sivad, MountieDawg, Cityhog are objective?

If 95+% of what you post is hate, then you aren't being objective... you're just being a hater.

Well, I don't micro-obsess over what people have to say. In my tent, all are welcome, even the dumb ones.

Having said that, I have found times when Hogsanity pissed me off, and times where I thought that boy knows his stuff. I don't believe that people are all good or all bad. But it's like Kevin said, once you're labeled, that's it.

[Tooth]

As for it being quiet, a few points:
* I was busy, actually. I work nights.
* Beating scrubs doesn't generally impress me, but I did note after the OM game that that was the most complete game I'd seen them play in the CMA era. They looked dominant, which made the Bama and SC losses all the more painful.
* Winning against inferior teams is required. You don't get a gold star for doing what you're supposed to do. At least not at my job.
* If a critical poster has a legit complaint, what's wrong with that? If he says "this guy sucks" and that's his "analysis," then he's a moron.

[Nipsey Mussle]

Well, I don't micro-obsess over what people have to say. In my tent, all are welcome, even the dumb ones.

Having said that, I have found times when Hogsanity pissed me off, and times where I thought that boy knows his stuff. I don't believe that people are all good or all bad. But it's like Kevin said, once you're labeled, that's it.

A label is only a very minimal part of it. Let's clean the slate and remove all perceptions of Hogsanity. When his next 20 posts are negative (and saying the exact same thing in each one) then what do you suggest I label him as?
Some who lean towards negativity are fine as long as they acknowledge the positives as well.
Like it or not, most of these super objective posters you speak of were nowhere to be seen for a month or so.

[PonderinHog]

As for it being quiet, a few points:
* I was busy, actually. I work nights.
* Beating scrubs doesn't generally impress me, but I did note after the OM game that that was the most complete game I'd seen them play in the CMA era. They looked dominant, which made the Bama and SC losses all the more painful.
* Winning against inferior teams is required. You don't get a gold star for doing what you're supposed to do. At least not at my job.
* If a critical poster has a legit complaint, what's wrong with that? If he says "this guy sucks" and that's his "analysis," then he's a moron.

I agree.   -1   

[Breems]

Well, I don't micro-obsess over what people have to say.

Yes, you do. That's why you started this thread.

[hogville38]

One of the things I wish was better about Hogville, and I know this isn't possible, is for people to try and be a little more objective. It's hard because we all love the Hogs and want to see them do well.

But if they don't do well, it should be OK to try and analyze that and offer ideas about where problem areas are, how they might overcome and address those, and things that we hope happen so that they improve and reach their potential.

Saying a player makes poor decisions is called "bashing."

If my kid brings home a D on a test because he didn't study hard enough, I'm going to talk to him about his poor decisions. Is that "bashing" my kid? To some, I guess it is. And I deserve some blame for that poor grade, too. I'm the "coach" and I didn't have my kid prepared for success so I'm open to criticism as well.

My "recruiting" for a mother of that kid might be fair game as well.

That's just how I see feedback about the team. I don't think that it's "bashing," I think it's kicking around ideas to try and get better.

Of course I guess I could take another approach and just say "My kid's great. That teacher/ref just doesn't like him. He gives A's to the other kid but has it in for my kid."

I might wish for that to be the case, because then I get to be the victim and don't have to accept any responsibility for my kid's failures.

Anyway, it makes me sad that in here, like in our country, we have to throw stones, or kick them, at one another. I love my Hogs (class of 2008) and I love my country (class of the world), but I don't think that they should be given a pass. We have a right to expect more from our teams and more from our country because we ARE a part of both, we do spend our money on both.

Would you say he sucks and has no talent? There is a big difference in constructive criticism and non constructive. That's bashing in my opinion. Good post though. I agree with you on most of this.

[JayBell]

A label is only a very minimal part of it. Let's clean the slate and remove all perceptions of Hogsanity. When his next 20 posts are negative (and saying the exact same thing in each one) then what do you suggest I label him as?
Some who lean towards negativity are fine as long as they acknowledge the positives as well.
Like it or not, most of these super objective posters you speak of were nowhere to be seen for a month or so.

I think that is perception, not reality. Hogsanity, myself and others who had been critical of the team were still around and constantly defending ourselves while also trying to enjoy the winning streak.

[Tooth]

Like it or not, most of these super objective posters you speak of were nowhere to be seen for a month or so.

I haven't named a single person as a "super objective poster," FYI.

I'd just like there to be some fairness. I'm a fan, but not a sunshine pumper. If I say of a theoretical Player X "he needs to toughen up," that's considered bashing? BUT IT'S TRUE! Some guys are soft! It doesn't mean they're a bad person, it just means that getting better, stronger, faster is a part of the game to strive toward.

I don't try and single out players. I single out problems... turnovers. Bad shots. Ill-considered shots/rushed shots. Lack of rebounding. Yet that's "bashing."

"Where never is heard, a discouraging word, and the skies are not cloudy all day."

[Kevin]

So would you say Hogsanity, Sivad, MountieDawg, Cityhog are objective?

If 95+% of what you post is hate, then you aren't being objective... you're just being a hater.

Kevin is objective and he's happy when we win and angry when we lose. That's how it should be.

Remember how quiet it was on here when we won 8 of 9? I guess all those "objective" posters just happened to be "busy."

thanks man, i try. i tend to be more critical, i know that.

it is frustrating to post a couple of positive things, and be ignored, but post one negative thing, and wham.

plus, in full disclosure, i am not a coach anderson fan. i think this year is a typical year minus getting in the ncaa. i hope i am wrong, but i think he wins just enough to keep his job.

[Tooth]

Yes, you do. That's why you started this thread.

OK, correction: I only micro-obsess over those who never bring anything to the conversation. So I guess I should talk to you more.

[code red]

Problem is that all some posters do is bitch and it gets old.  Objectivity goes both ways and if you are truly objective, you can see positives as well as negatives.

So does losing.  Comments about this teams lack of discipline, toughness or rebounding are not comments that are negative.  They are comments about what  the problem is and, what has been the problem since MA got here.  It has not been fixed or improved.  Those are facts and yet they are being "selectively" deleted.  I for one think its crap.

[Tooth]

So does losing.  Comments about this teams lack of discipline, toughness or rebounding are not comments that are negative.  They are comments about what is the problem and what has been the problem since MA got here and is not fixed or improved.  Those are facts and yet they are being "selectively" deleted.  I for one think its crap.

+1

[Atlhogfan1]

Not true as far as the board being quiet during the late season wins.  It did go extreme back towards what it was in the non conference. 

I haven't named a single person as a "super objective poster," FYI.

I'd just like there to be some fairness. I'm a fan, but not a sunshine pumper. If I say of a theoretical Player X "he needs to toughen up," that's considered bashing? BUT IT'S TRUE! Some guys are soft! It doesn't mean they're a bad person, it just means that getting better, stronger, faster is a part of the game to strive toward.

I don't try and single out players. I single out problems... turnovers. Bad shots. Ill-considered shots/rushed shots. Lack of rebounding. Yet that's "bashing."

"Where never is heard, a discouraging word, and the skies are not cloudy all day."

Can't happen right now.  This is as close as we will come again to the Nutt era as far as support for the coaching staff on a personal level.  Too many with personal feelings for it not to be this way.  And we have a few younger posters who are very homerish.  You can try to ignore them till they become very disrespectful. 

[dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya]

I think it should be slightly slanted toward the negative.  When things are going well, all you can really do is "rah rah wps and a ghg" and how interesting is that?

Nothing wrong with pointing out where we can get better.  Just don't personally bash student athletes - criticizing their play?  Heck yeah.  The basketball season was much more successful than football.  Talk about a train wreck if we don't win some SEC games...

And yet the sunshine pumping knows no end.  Some posters even want to ban anyone that says anything remotely negative.  THAT's what's getting old - but JMO.

Those same posters will be the ones on here griping and posting "Fire Brette" as soon as the clock hits zero if we lose to Auburn.

[dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya]

And good post Tooth.

[popcornhog]

One of the things I wish was better about Hogville, and I know this isn't possible, is for people to try and be a little more objective. It's hard because we all love the Hogs and want to see them do well.

But if they don't do well, it should be OK to try and analyze that and offer ideas about where problem areas are, how they might overcome and address those, and things that we hope happen so that they improve and reach their potential.

Saying a player makes poor decisions is called "bashing."

If my kid brings home a D on a test because he didn't study hard enough, I'm going to talk to him about his poor decisions. Is that "bashing" my kid? To some, I guess it is. And I deserve some blame for that poor grade, too. I'm the "coach" and I didn't have my kid prepared for success so I'm open to criticism as well.

My "recruiting" for a mother of that kid might be fair game as well.

That's just how I see feedback about the team. I don't think that it's "bashing," I think it's kicking around ideas to try and get better.

Of course I guess I could take another approach and just say "My kid's great. That teacher/ref just doesn't like him. He gives A's to the other kid but has it in for my kid."

I might wish for that to be the case, because then I get to be the victim and don't have to accept any responsibility for my kid's failures.

Anyway, it makes me sad that in here, like in our country, we have to throw stones, or kick them, at one another. I love my Hogs (class of 2008) and I love my country (class of the world), but I don't think that they should be given a pass. We have a right to expect more from our teams and more from our country because we ARE a part of both, we do spend our money on both.

Bingo on the lack of objectivity.

The problem is that most posters are either haters or homers.

A fan of the team can certainly be critical. No, should be critical. But being constantly negative and sniping at the coach at every opportunity whilst never recognizing the positive? Well, that is just as silly as hailing Mike as the second coming.

[Randy Johnson]

If you were going to speak to your child about problems at school you would not do it on a message board. I get what you're saying though. I think you can say just about anything here. Don't go down the name calling road. Don't mess with the mods. Don't mess with the media folks that contribute. Keep it clean, there are young people that look at this site. I say a lot of things in private to friends that I would not post. I'm usually glad in hind site. Yesterday Lanny said this board is for true hog fans. That really says it all. True hog fans will critique a coach, team or player but won't say mean things. Another thing if I might go on. Do unto others as you would have them do to you. Do you want someone calling you stupid or a whatever. The idea of a forum as you said is to exchange ideas. We just have to be civilized. I would like to think that if we were all face to face none of us would call each other names. Well, most anyway. We do have trolls.

[Breems]

OK, correction: I only micro-obsess over those who never bring anything to the conversation. So I guess I should talk to you more.

Good one.

I'm just stating that you created a thread asking people to not have opinions on people that have opinions.

Did you feel this thread was necessary in defense of supportive posters when we were 2-6 in conference play and they were getting bashed for having even a remotely positive outlook on the team?

[Nipsey Mussle]

A lot of what polarizes us is calling each other out for being wrong in the past. It makes one stick to their guns. I talk to my brother in law during each and every game and we don't hold each other to what we said previously. It allows one to be objective.

In response to this thread in general: If the ones being critical become objective, I will act accordingly. The same goes if they remain all out haters.

I don't mind someone saying, "Madden needs to play tougher." I do mind someone making the exact same comment repeatedly and refusing to make a single positive post. If that's requiring someone to be a "sunshine pumper" then so be it.

[Tooth]

Good one.

I'm just stating that you created a thread asking people to not have opinions on people that have opinions.

Did you feel this thread was necessary in defense of supportive posters when we were 2-6 in conference play and they were getting bashed for having even a remotely positive outlook on the team?

Actually, I kinda did. At 2-6 I started a poll grading CMA. That's open to sunshine pumpers and rock-kickers. Too bad it got deleted, it was interesting to watch the ebb and flow.

[Hooch]

One of the things I wish was better about Hogville, and I know this isn't possible, is for people to try and be a little more objective. It's hard because we all love the Hogs and want to see them do well.

But if they don't do well, it should be OK to try and analyze that and offer ideas about where problem areas are, how they might overcome and address those, and things that we hope happen so that they improve and reach their potential.

Saying a player makes poor decisions is called "bashing."

If my kid brings home a D on a test because he didn't study hard enough, I'm going to talk to him about his poor decisions. Is that "bashing" my kid? To some, I guess it is. And I deserve some blame for that poor grade, too. I'm the "coach" and I didn't have my kid prepared for success so I'm open to criticism as well.

My "recruiting" for a mother of that kid might be fair game as well.

That's just how I see feedback about the team. I don't think that it's "bashing," I think it's kicking around ideas to try and get better.

Of course I guess I could take another approach and just say "My kid's great. That teacher/ref just doesn't like him. He gives A's to the other kid but has it in for my kid."

I might wish for that to be the case, because then I get to be the victim and don't have to accept any responsibility for my kid's failures.

Anyway, it makes me sad that in here, like in our country, we have to throw stones, or kick them, at one another. I love my Hogs (class of 2008) and I love my country (class of the world), but I don't think that they should be given a pass. We have a right to expect more from our teams and more from our country because we ARE a part of both, we do spend our money on both.

Serious question, if someone else was talking about you or your kids poor performance or your lack of parenting, would you see it the same way?

I understand that many on here see the Hogs as their institution, but that doesn't give them the right to criticize players like they are their children. 

The fact of the matter is, that these kids give more time and sacrifice to the university than 99% of people on this board.  The notion that these kids ability or lack there of on the floor is somehow a reflection upon their university in a negative light is the embarrassment. 

I believe the coach and administration should be able to be questioned. The thing I have a problem with is when a kid like Scott who has given 4 years, watched his playing time disappear, still practiced everyday, still made his grades, and every time he gets in a game and makes a bad decision or simply misses a free throw folks will begin the "Ill be glad when he is gone" or "waste of  a scholarship". 

I guess what I don't understand is how a person who simply attended the U of A or donates a little money every year, feels they have more of a vested interest in the teams than the coach, players, or administration. 

[dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya]

If you were going to speak to your child about problems at school you would not do it on a message board. I get what you're saying though. I think you can say just about anything here. Don't go down the name calling road. Don't mess with the mods. Don't mess with the media folks that contribute. Keep it clean, there are young people that look at this site. I say a lot of things in private to friends that I would not post. I'm usually glad in hind site. Yesterday Lanny said this board is for true hog fans. That really says it all. True hog fans will critique a coach, team or player but won't say mean things. Another thing if I might go on. Do unto others as you would have them do to you. Do you want someone calling you stupid or a whatever. The idea of a forum as you said is to exchange ideas. We just have to be civilized. I would like to think that if we were all face to face none of us would call each other names. Well, most anyway. We do have trolls.

Many of us have met personally at tailgates, watch parties, etc., over the last few years.  It's interesting how the dynamic changes between posters on here after they have met.

[hambone]

Most of the haters are the least objective among us.

They are the ones who cannot admit that our program has been as inept and abysmal as programs like Auburn and South Carolina for a freaking decade prior to MA.

They try to make arguments that we aren't improving when an actual comparison of records shows that to be a ludicrous assertion. They try and argue that things like not having a practice facility aren't hurting our recruiting. Again ludicrous. Objective my tail.

If you are truly objective, then you realize exactly how far the program had fallen, how far it has to just to get back to relevance, and how far behind we are in facilities in comparison to the teams we compete against for recruits.

If you are truly objective, then you know things like we have only won 38% of our conference games in the decade prior to MA. Dana Altman didn't run for the hills for no reason and the program went on a four year decline from that point.

If you are truly objective, then you know this isn't a reload situation. This rebuild required a change in cultures, upgrade in talent, and a facilities upgrade as well. Not a 3 years turnaround by any stretch.

[Hooch]

I think that is perception, not reality. Hogsanity, myself and others who had been critical of the team were still around and constantly defending ourselves while also trying to enjoy the winning streak.

Why would you have to be defending yourself?  Why not just look at it and say it appears they have turned it around, I still have my concerns but.....

Its like trying to convince everyone the weather is crappy when its Sunny and 70, enjoy it while you can, that is not being any more objective than anyone else. 

[PygmalionEffect]

The one single improvement that would make this a better site is to make sure that before someone can become a moderator on here, that they know how to delete a single post they don't like in a thread instead of sending the entire thread to Vents & Rumors.

You have a pretty good discussion going, someone uses a bad choice of words in one post and poof, the entire thread is banished to the gulag.

[dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya]

Or one of my favs is when they pile on saying "I'm glad you're not the coach" - Guess what?  So am I.  That's why I'm on a message board and that's why it's called MONDAY Morning QB and not FRIDAY Eve QB....

[rude1]

The problem isn't crtiquing what went wrong, the problem arises when there is a lack of praise even when things go right. That's when it clearly becomes not about true success but trying to push an agenda.