Still think Larry Bird was overrated?

[dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya]

Which isn't new to the game. One of the most famous plays in celtics history is a steal by bird.

That was a steal by Bird to win the game.  What I saw was just out of control play, turnover after turnover, free throw after missed free throw.  Incredibly sloppy play.

I have to say, though the games yesterday and tonight have been better.

[JayBell]

Choke job?  Check his stats.

Use your eyes.  Watch the game.  Lebron was a brick layer and a turnover machine when it mattered most.  He had great stats, but he missed multiple shots and turned the ball over multiple times late in that game.

I can't remember the exact phrase, but someone said something like Lebron was "boringly fantastic" or something like that after a loss close to the end of his time in Cleveland.  The person said that because Lebron's statline was something like 32 points, 8 rebounds and 6 assists, but he was not a leader or a motivator in that game.  He was just an extremely talented basketball player, not a leader.

I think he's made improvements in Miami, but when you're talking about the "greatest" athletes, they're never described as "uninspired" or scared to put the team on their back.  Lebron has been and still occasionally is.  I have no problem with giving him credit where credit is due, but I'm also never going to compare him with the absolute greats until he shows more than he has.

[Fatty McGee]

Use your eyes.  Watch the game.  Lebron was a brick layer and a turnover machine when it mattered most.  He had great stats, but he missed multiple shots and turned the ball over multiple times late in that game.

I'm not sure what games you're talking about, but this is a guy who took the Cleveland Cavaliers, whose second best player was Mo Williams (MO WILLIAMS!!) to the Finals.   

I think he's made improvements in Miami, but when you're talking about the "greatest" athletes, they're never described as "uninspired" or scared to put the team on their back.  Lebron has been and still occasionally is.  I have no problem with giving him credit where credit is due, but I'm also never going to compare him with the absolute greats until he shows more than he has.

Mo Williams.  Mo.  Freaking.  Williams.   And this was before LeBron was in his prime.

He's going to the Finals now with less talent compared to the rest of the league than Russell, Magic or Bird ever had.  What he has now is not that far off from Jordan's second three peat.  And the League is probably as deep as it has ever been.

2 titles, 4 Finals, 2 Finals MVP awards, 4 MVP awards, 10x All Star, 5x All Defensive Team, and just now getting to his prime.  But not one of the greats?

[JayBell]

He's going to the Finals now with less talent compared to the rest of the league than Russell, Magic or Bird ever had.  What he has now is not that far off from Jordan's second three peat.  And the League is probably as deep as it has ever been.

2 titles, 4 Finals, 2 Finals MVP awards, 4 MVP awards, 10x All Star, 5x All Defensive Team, and just now getting to his prime.  But not one of the greats?

This is a non-starter to the argument if you really believe this to be true.  The reason it took Jordan so long to get his first titles was because he had to deal with the Celtics, Pistons and Sixers just in his own conference.  That didn't even include the Lakers, Rockets, Suns, etc.

Who has Lebron had to go through, the banged up, old Celtics?  The Derrick Rose-less Bulls?  Lebron couldn't get the Cavs past a Magic team whose starting lineup was Dwight Howard, Rashard Lewis, Hedo Turkoglu, Rafer Alston and Courtney Lee. The Heat lost in the finals to Dirk Nowitzki and the Mavericks, one of the weakest NBA champions in the last three decades.

The league has added six teams since the mid-80's, stretching the number of players across the league, and have been drafting 18 and 19 year-old kids for the last 15 years, and you think the league is as deep as it has ever been?

No.

[JayBell]

And it is so annoying how everything about the Miami Heat is made to be about Lebron.  How much do you even hear about Wade and Bosh anymore?  Wade is still a top player when healthy (his FG% is almost as high as Lebron's) and Bosh makes more money than both of them.  Chalmers, Allen, Battier, Beasley, Haslem, etc. would all start for most teams in the league.

By current NBA standards, the Heat are a great all-around team, but most people can't name anyone on their team outside of Lebron and maybe Wade and Bosh.

[trashcan maN]

I doubt it.  Even if you want to debate what the game has become on the court, the hype machine off the court is all about individual players now.  Not teams and certainly not coaches.  Everyone knows Lebron, Durant, George, Chris Paul, Steph Curry, Dirk, Blake Griffin, Dwight Howard, etc.  I don't think kids even know a ton about the rest of the players on those teams.  Obviously the ones who play a lot of NBA 2K will, but I still say the majority don't.

Since the resurgence of the NBA in the 80s, the league has always focused its marketing around the stars. That's why you often hear people say that Bird/Magic revived the NBA. That's why ratings plummeted when Jordan retired.

[Fatty McGee]

This is a non-starter to the argument if you really believe this to be true.  The reason it took Jordan so long to get his first titles was because he had to deal with the Celtics, Pistons and Sixers just in his own conference.  That didn't even include the Lakers, Rockets, Suns, etc.

If I really believe what is true?  That LeBron has taken teams to the Finals with less surrounding talent than Jordan, Bird or Magic?  That's a fact.  Jordan, Bird and Magic never went to the Finals with any less than one other of the 50 Greatest Players. 

As far as winning a title, I think Bosh/Wade/James compares with Jordan/Pippen/Rodman as far as talent. 

I'm not one for saying this player is better than that when you get to the Top 10, but there's no denying James has brought some weak teams a long long way.

Who has Lebron had to go through, the banged up, old Celtics?  The Derrick Rose-less Bulls?  Lebron couldn't get the Cavs past a Magic team whose starting lineup was Dwight Howard, Rashard Lewis, Hedo Turkoglu, Rafer Alston and Courtney Lee. The Heat lost in the finals to Dirk Nowitzki and the Mavericks, one of the weakest NBA champions in the last three decades.

It's almost like you don't recall who was on that Cavs team, and that LeBron AVERAGED 39 points, 8 rebounds and 8 assists in that series.  What else would a "great player" in your definition have done?  Make Delonte West into Scottie Pippen?

Didn't they beat the Spurs, with Lebron averaging 25-11-3?  Maybe the Spurs aren't worthy of respect in your eyes though.  The Thunder?  They work?  He averaged 29-10-7.  In what world are those stats not great?

Even against the Mavs, he averaged 27-11-5.  And Detroit was probably a weaker Finals champion. 

The league has added six teams since the mid-80's, stretching the number of players across the league, and have been drafting 18 and 19 year-old kids for the last 15 years, and you think the league is as deep as it has ever been?

No.

You can say this, but unfortunately for you it's not an objective fact.  Drafting 18-19 year olds doesn't make the league weaker, as age is not an indicator of talent.  And the influx of international players in that same period has increased the pool of available talent, as the Spurs roster indicates.  There are some bad teams now, and there were some bad teams then. 

[Fatty McGee]

And it is so annoying how everything about the Miami Heat is made to be about Lebron.  How much do you even hear about Wade and Bosh anymore?  Wade is still a top player when healthy (his FG% is almost as high as Lebron's) and Bosh makes more money than both of them.  Chalmers, Allen, Battier, Beasley, Haslem, etc. would all start for most teams in the league.

By current NBA standards, the Heat are a great all-around team, but most people can't name anyone on their team outside of Lebron and maybe Wade and Bosh.

Sounds like your gripe is with marketing, not the players.

Chalmers would start for most bad teams, Haslem maybe, Battier maybe, Beasley hasn't started half the games in his career on many teams.  Ray Allen, at this point in his career, is also a maybe.  But each of them, with the exception of Allen, is easily replaceable. 

This doesn't make them that difference from the two Bulls three peat teams, which featured 3 good-great players surrounded by replaceable parts.  And arguably the first Bulls run was just two great players, one pretty good in Grant, and change.