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Hall of Fame

Started by hog.goblin, January 10, 2013, 08:38:09 am

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hog.goblin

Would like to have seen Raines and/or Lee Smith get in yesterday.  Both are worthy.  Both would have been a reminder to the current class that players should have done it the right way.

bsking

I don't think Raines is worthy because he was really a one tool player.  He's nothing more than mediocre in every stat but stolen bases.

As for Lee Smith, his career is a tribute to longevity more than anything.  3.00 ERA closers with 8 K's per 9 innings are a dime a dozen.  I'm not saying he definitely shouldn't be, but do you really consider him an all time great?

 

hog.goblin

January 10, 2013, 11:11:56 am #2 Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 11:24:43 am by hog.goblin
I admit, I tend to see them both as all time greats because:

1) I became a baseball fan in the early 80s and was a fan of the Cubs and Expos,

2) A guy like Smith is a dime a dozen now, but certainly Lee wasn't then.  Had he retired a little sooner it wouldn't have had much change on his save total but he would have finished his career with under a 3.00 ERA and over 1200 inning pitched.  Pretty impressive.

3) I remember Raines for being a good defender, rather versatile (LF, CF, 2B) great speed, with good pop in his bat - again, rare back then compared to now.

4) All these guys are better in my eyes now then 5 - 10 years ago because they're clean.

Take away the GG an he was every bit the player of Sandberg (and I'm a fan of Sandberg).

ucahogfan

Craig Biggio not getting in on the first ballot was an absolute travesty.  He was never linked to PED use and played the game the way it should have been played.  He is only of the only players to ever have a 50 2B/50 SB season.  He almost should definitely make it next season along with Maddux and Glavine.  And if Maddux (and even Glavine) don't get 100% of the votes next season, those who didn't vote for them should have their voting privileges removed.

I also can't stand the fact that players who have only been suspected of taking PEDs can't receive enough votes to get into the HOF.  Piazza is probably the best hitting C ever and he couldn't even receive 60% of the vote because some writers suspect he took PEDs.  Once him and Bags get in, players like Bonds and Clemens will be easier for voters to elect.

And for PED users, shouldn't we vote them in since "everyone" was doing it and they were still better?  The Baseball HOF is the most exclusive HOF, but the fact 2 of the top 10-15 players of all time won't be elected in Clemens and Bonds because they were just better than everyone else is a sham.

Voters who turn in blank ballots should also lose their vote.  There is at least 1 person that is on the ballot every year that deserves a vote.  I think some of the writers are just jealous that these guys have a chance to get into Cooperstown while most of the writers will never sniff it.

The fact that only 10 players can be voted for on each ballot also probably needs to be expanded for certain years as it could have been this year.

bsking

Either wipe the stats or let them in.  I don't really care which.

hog.goblin

Quote from: ucahogfan on January 10, 2013, 05:27:53 pm
Craig Biggio not getting in on the first ballot was an absolute travesty.  He was never linked to PED use and played the game the way it should have been played.  He is only of the only players to ever have a 50 2B/50 SB season.  He almost should definitely make it next season along with Maddux and Glavine.  And if Maddux (and even Glavine) don't get 100% of the votes next season, those who didn't vote for them should have their voting privileges removed.

I also can't stand the fact that players who have only been suspected of taking PEDs can't receive enough votes to get into the HOF.  Piazza is probably the best hitting C ever and he couldn't even receive 60% of the vote because some writers suspect he took PEDs.  Once him and Bags get in, players like Bonds and Clemens will be easier for voters to elect.

And for PED users, shouldn't we vote them in since "everyone" was doing it and they were still better?  The Baseball HOF is the most exclusive HOF, but the fact 2 of the top 10-15 players of all time won't be elected in Clemens and Bonds because they were just better than everyone else is a sham.

Voters who turn in blank ballots should also lose their vote.  There is at least 1 person that is on the ballot every year that deserves a vote.  I think some of the writers are just jealous that these guys have a chance to get into Cooperstown while most of the writers will never sniff it.

The fact that only 10 players can be voted for on each ballot also probably needs to be expanded for certain years as it could have been this year.

I agree about Biggio.  I'm not sure I would call him a first ballot HOFer, but very close to it.  Considering no one else was worth voting in (according to the voters), I would have thought that would have put him over the top.

I was actually surprised how many votes Piazza and Bagwell got.  Both are legit, but they are certainly on the short path to the HOF.  I figured both would come in a little lower and take a little longer.

Maddux is a lock next year.  Glavine is a near-lock.  Frank Thomas is a near-lock.  Kent and Mussina will get in, but not next year.

I agree, I think they should revoke any voter who turned in a blank ballot.  That's probably what kept Biggio out this year, and possibly Jack Morris.  This was Jack's last shot considering next year's class.

I'm certainly fine with anyone tied to PEDs not getting in.  I understand the otherside of the argument, but Dawson was right.  You have to respect the game.  These guys didn't.

clutch

Cheating has been a part of baseball forever. Not always PED's, but for as long as baseball has been around, guys have been doing whatever they could to get an edge. I don't like the fact that guys like Bonds and Clemens juiced when they really didn't have too, but they should still get in. I hated both of them, but they are 2 of the best players to ever play the game....... clean or not. There is also the fact that a lot of these guys were juicing when it technically wasn't against the rules. If it wasn't against the rules at the time, then how is it cheating? As for the guys that have never been actually linked to anything not getting in, that's just BS. It's really all a big joke now.

Don't even get me started on Pete Rose. He's a no doubter. Ban him from participating in baseball if you want, but I see no reason to keep him out of the Hall of Fame.

I guess the thing that makes me the maddest about all of this is that for years everybody close to baseball knew what was going on. They didn't care though, because these guys were bringing excitement back to baseball. A lot of these writers probably made their careers by covering these guys while they were having monster years. Now that the word leaked out, they are turning against them.

Mark_Freeman


eusebius

Good discussion in this thread.

As to Tim Raines. He is basically Rickey Henderson "light." He did the same things as Henderson in the NL with the Expos that Henderson was doing with the A's and Yankees in the early to mid 80's. Raines never hit the magic numbers that Henderson did, but he had a solid career. I can see his inclusion picking up steam once the PED guys have been on the ballot several years.

Lee Smith is kind of in the same boat. He gets overshadowed not so much by his contemporaries but by the stats put up by Hoffman and Rivera. I can see Raines getting in more than Smith.

Raines is attached to the cocaine stigma of the 80's in baseball.  I remember reading a quote where he said he "slid head first to avoid breaking the vials of cocaine in his pant's pocket."

Biggio should be in. 3000 hits should be a no doubter. I don't think the PED's has in any way watered down that accomplishment.

My prediction is that Greg Maddux will break Tom Seaver's 98.84 % election rate and become the highest percentage vote getter in HOF history. There are no holes in his resume.        And he accumulated his stats in a hitter's era.

Glavine should be a first ballot as should Thomas. Mussina will pick up steam when more of the Yankees teammates come up for election down the road.
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DeltaBoy

Quote from: ucahogfan on January 10, 2013, 05:27:53 pm
Craig Biggio not getting in on the first ballot was an absolute travesty.  He was never linked to PED use and played the game the way it should have been played.  He is only of the only players to ever have a 50 2B/50 SB season.  He almost should definitely make it next season along with Maddux and Glavine.  And if Maddux (and even Glavine) don't get 100% of the votes next season, those who didn't vote for them should have their voting privileges removed.

I also can't stand the fact that players who have only been suspected of taking PEDs can't receive enough votes to get into the HOF.  Piazza is probably the best hitting C ever and he couldn't even receive 60% of the vote because some writers suspect he took PEDs.  Once him and Bags get in, players like Bonds and Clemens will be easier for voters to elect.

And for PED users, shouldn't we vote them in since "everyone" was doing it and they were still better?  The Baseball HOF is the most exclusive HOF, but the fact 2 of the top 10-15 players of all time won't be elected in Clemens and Bonds because they were just better than everyone else is a sham.

Voters who turn in blank ballots should also lose their vote.  There is at least 1 person that is on the ballot every year that deserves a vote.  I think some of the writers are just jealous that these guys have a chance to get into Cooperstown while most of the writers will never sniff it.

The fact that only 10 players can be voted for on each ballot also probably needs to be expanded for certain years as it could have been this year.

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hawkhawg

Biggio deserves in but with Maddox, Glavine, Thomas, Randy Johnson, Pedro, and Griffey all coming up in the next few years, throw in all the roid guys (Clemens, Bonds, Sosa, Palmerio) Biggio may not ever get in.

bulldog04

It seems like for some reason, the voters didn't want anyone in this year.  Biggio and Piazza should be in.  Biggio had 3000 hits and one of the best players (the best 2b) of his generation.  Piazza is one of the best hitting catchers of all time.  Neither one of these guys have been proven in my mind to take PEDs.

clutch

Quote from: hawkhawg on January 11, 2013, 01:49:23 pm
Biggio deserves in but with Maddox, Glavine, Thomas, Randy Johnson, Pedro, and Griffey all coming up in the next few years, throw in all the roid guys (Clemens, Bonds, Sosa, Palmerio) Biggio may not ever get in.

I think Biggio gets in within the next 2 years. 3000 hits should get you in. Steroids may make the ball go over the wall more often than it would have otherwise, but I don't think they help you get 3000 hits. 3000 hits means you were a dang good hitter, no matter what.

 

bao187

baseball is better with PED's in my opinion, also its a joke that Pete Rose still has no chance at the hall
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