Hogville Info
• 7,412,879 Posts
• 333,660 Topics
• 26,858 Hogvillians
THE RULES (Read 'em!)
Quick Links
Pick'Ems:FootballBasketball
Sister Sites:Gridiron HistoryFearless Friday
Listen NOW:Game ON!Ugly Uncle Show
 Two Cents Radio 

Poll

What do you most identify with?

  • I don't believe it if I can't see it - - 28 (10.4%)
  • I don't know and it can't be known - - 48 (17.9%)
  • There are forces at work in the universe that we don't understand - - 119 (44.4%)
  • I know the answer and you should listen to me - - 55 (20.5%)
  • There is a God and that God is Frito Pie - - 18 (6.7%)

Total Members Voted: 258


Pages: [1] 2 3 4 ... 360   Go Down

Author Topic: Agnosticism  (Read 280007 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

PorkSoda

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +2128/-2226
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 25,023
  • chill'n like a villian
    • It's a Jeep thing...
Agnosticism
« on: May 14, 2012, 02:40:58 pm »

Since the thread attacking the foundations of Christianity has been cast into the void, I figure its time to switch it up.  Certainly we can analyse the pros and cons of agnosticism and their guiding principles.

how does their belief (or rather non-belief) affect society.  Is there a philosophy that guides them in developing morals, or are they amoral by definition?

EDIT: Per Dionysos' request
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 12:15:46 pm by PorkSoda »
Logged

ledhead830

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +438/-743
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 3,462
  • You'll Never Walk Alone
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2012, 02:45:00 pm »

"I don't believe it if there exists no way to observe it" would be more like it.
Logged

Sponsored Ad



Hogville encourages you to do business with the following...
Your browser is archaic. Your browser is antiquated. Your browser... it FILS! Update it, please.

PorkSoda

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +2128/-2226
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 25,023
  • chill'n like a villian
    • It's a Jeep thing...
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2012, 02:46:41 pm »

"I don't believe it if there exists no way to observe it" would be more like it.
fair enough, what is your methodology for determining right from wrong?  How do you observe the difference from right and wrong?  or do you believe those words are essentially meaningless in the natural order of the universe.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2012, 03:15:03 pm by PorkSoda »
Logged

ledhead830

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +438/-743
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 3,462
  • You'll Never Walk Alone
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2012, 03:25:32 pm »

fair enough, what is your methodology for determining right from wrong?  How do you observe the difference from right and wrong?  or do you believe those words are essentially meaningless in the natural order of the universe.

Most likely, right and wrong are a culturally developed construct arising from our social species' 100,000 years of trial and error.
 
Our species survives as a society. Rules (right and wrong) were developed to best survive as a society.

Some rules work so well they're uniform throughout all civilizations, such as don't kill (though superstitions sometimes get in the way of some of these would-be obvious rules and you get things like sacrifice). Other rules are not so obvious and can take thousands of years and several flip-flops before you get one that everyone can agree on (property rights in lost or stolen items for instance - though there are still policy issues that come up in many courts). Still others, we see as abhorrent now, were fine years ago because it kept their civilization going with minimal effort on their closest of kin (of course, this is talking about slavery).

So yeah, you could lump me in with the "right and wrong are meaningless" crowd to the extent that they are divinely inspired. I do believe we as a society, and thanks in large part to the agnostic thinking of the enlightenment, have developed an extremely good system of what is right and wrong. Will we develop better? Maybe. Will we develop worse? Again, maybe. We are humans. Everything we do is a little trial and error, and unfortunately, we throw in superstition every now and then.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2012, 03:30:30 pm by ledhead830 »
Logged

PorkSoda

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +2128/-2226
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 25,023
  • chill'n like a villian
    • It's a Jeep thing...
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2012, 03:48:42 pm »

solid analysis IMO

what are your thoughts on intuition.  we all have logicial and abstract sides to our brain.  I think we have to recognize the existence of the subconscious.  Is intuition basically what is left of ,or possibly the evolution of, animal instinct or do you think there is something more to it?
Logged

panhandlepig

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +406/-975
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 4,055
  • don't worry about a thing
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2012, 03:49:42 pm »


  I voted "it can't be known".  Religion, imo, is just man's attempt to explain the unknowable and mitigate the inevitable..death. We can't attain either of those goals, so anything else is just a power-play by the folks in charge and for those that buy into it, a "get-out -of jail free without passing go'" card. 

 Morality has nothing to do with religion.  Organized Societies through out history have established laws.  We wouldn't be here if they didn't.

  Having said all that, I have no problem with people who choose to identify with or practice a particular religion..as long as it doesn't infringe on my right to not to. 
 
Logged

PorkSoda

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +2128/-2226
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 25,023
  • chill'n like a villian
    • It's a Jeep thing...
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2012, 04:07:42 pm »

  I voted "it can't be known".  Religion, imo, is just man's attempt to explain the unknowable and mitigate the inevitable..death. We can't attain either of those goals, so anything else is just a power-play by the folks in charge and for those that buy into it, a "get-out -of jail free without passing go'" card. 

 Morality has nothing to do with religion.  Organized Societies through out history have established laws.  We wouldn't be here if they didn't.

  Having said all that, I have no problem with people who choose to identify with or practice a particular religion..as long as it doesn't infringe on my right to not to. 
 
So a big difference between an agnostic and a theist seems to be that agnostics don't take afterlife consequences into consideration when making decisions.

Theists might see this as a crutch so that one can rationalize decisions that value short term gratification over more eternal rewards.
Logged

Oliver

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +1883/-5008
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20,784
  • #0-8 #3-9 #Yield
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2012, 04:17:41 pm »

So a big difference between an agnostic and a theist seems to be that agnostics don't take afterlife consequences into consideration when making decisions.

Theists might see this as a crutch so that one can rationalize decisions that value short term gratification over more eternal rewards.

But do you really abstain from murder because you know you'll go to hell?  Or do you abstain from it because it causes physical harm and agony not just to that person but their family?

The first option seems like you are missing the whole point. 
Logged

PorkSoda

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +2128/-2226
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 25,023
  • chill'n like a villian
    • It's a Jeep thing...
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2012, 04:19:11 pm »

But do you really abstain from murder because you know you'll go to hell?  Or do you abstain from it because it causes physical harm and agony not just to that person but their family?

The first option seems like you are missing the whole point. 
very good point.  Empathy is a part of what makes us human, I wonder why it has taken so long, and only in little bits been a part of policy making.

I once heard someone talking about writing.  They said that 'the greatest tragedy is not good vs evil, but rather one person's good vs another person's good'
« Last Edit: May 14, 2012, 04:23:11 pm by PorkSoda »
Logged

panhandlepig

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +406/-975
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 4,055
  • don't worry about a thing
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2012, 04:19:58 pm »

So a big difference between an agnostic and a theist seems to be that agnostics don't take afterlife consequences into consideration when making decisions.

Theists might see this as a crutch so that one can rationalize decisions that value short term gratification over more eternal rewards.


   I have no clue what the difference is, and gave up caring along time ago.  I just know, that once I stopped fearing death and the after-life and concentrated on the life I was living now, things got easier.  Until someone comes back from the other side and gives us an up-date,I decided to concentrate on my God-given "soul" that I have been aware of for along time,  here on this earthly plane, as opposed to my "ego"  that is temporary and just go with it.  Of course, I have authority issues..always have.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2012, 04:23:38 pm by panhandlepig »
Logged

PorkSoda

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +2128/-2226
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 25,023
  • chill'n like a villian
    • It's a Jeep thing...
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2012, 04:25:51 pm »


   I have no clue what the difference is, and gave up caring along time ago.  I just know, that once I stopped fearing death and the after-life and concentrated on the life I was living now, things got easier.  Until someone comes back from the other side and gives us an up-date,I decided to concentrate on my God-given "soul" that I have been aware of for along time,  here on this earthly plane, as opposed to my "ego"  that is temporary and just go with it.  Of course, I have authority issues..always have.
can't disagree.  the human ego has long been a dilemma.  The source of our dysfunction, yet necessary to our survival.
Logged

Michaelt

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +1751/-2078
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 13,490
  • Luke 9:23
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2012, 08:56:58 am »

I've read before (a comical jab, yes) that agnostics are the "king of the fence sitters", in that they won't go too far to either side but teeter between both. However in most of my discussions with people who claim to be agnostics, they have a definite opinion against God being who He says He is, whether that is intended or just by accident I don't know.

Logged

ledhead830

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +438/-743
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 3,462
  • You'll Never Walk Alone
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2012, 09:46:37 am »

I've read before (a comical jab, yes) that agnostics are the "king of the fence sitters", in that they won't go too far to either side but teeter between both. However in most of my discussions with people who claim to be agnostics, they have a definite opinion against God being who He says He is, whether that is intended or just by accident I don't know.



I'm not against anything I don't think exists. I am not against leprechauns, fairies or Ryan Seacrest's conscience. I am against the adherence to doctrine based off the belief in existence of such things that most likely don't exist.
Logged

Terry (GUVHOG) Holcomb

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +3712/-7627
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 31,671
  • Future Global Moderator Now Posting Cautiously!
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2012, 10:36:11 am »

I'm not against anything I don't think exists. I am not against leprechauns, fairies or Ryan Seacrest's conscience. I am against the adherence to doctrine based off the belief in existence of such things that most likely don't exist.

The only problem with that is that you really don't know for sure that they don't exist. It's much easier to claim something doesn't exist when one can't explain it away.
Logged

Terry (GUVHOG) Holcomb

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +3712/-7627
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 31,671
  • Future Global Moderator Now Posting Cautiously!
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2012, 10:44:13 am »

But do you really abstain from murder because you know you'll go to hell?  Or do you abstain from it because it causes physical harm and agony not just to that person but their family?

The first option seems like you are missing the whole point. 

I abstain from murder because it is both biblically and legally wrong. Committing a Murder will not condemn one to hell, only refusal to accept Jesus Christ as the Lord of ones Life will do that.
Logged

jtaylor2d

  • Bench Warmer
  • ***
  • Karma: +24/-20
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 82
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2012, 11:16:14 am »

I found  that after I left the church behind and stopped believing in God my life became much better. I stopped fearing death and all the other atrocities in the Bible that intend to scare the vulnerable.

Life is very peaceful and until God wants to peek his head through the clouds and wink at me I will continue to not believe in the Christian God and all the other gazillion Gods that men have made up over time.
Logged

Terry (GUVHOG) Holcomb

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +3712/-7627
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 31,671
  • Future Global Moderator Now Posting Cautiously!
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2012, 11:30:22 am »

I found  that after I left the church behind and stopped believing in God my life became much better. I stopped fearing death and all the other atrocities in the Bible that intend to scare the vulnerable.

Life is very peaceful and until God wants to peek his head through the clouds and wink at me I will continue to not believe in the Christian God and all the other gazillion Gods that men have made up over time.

The only reason to fear death is because one has not accepted Jesus Christ as the Lord of their life. Christians do not fear death. The only reason you no longer seem to fear death is because you don't believe in God, hence you don't believe there is a Hell and you choose simply not to think about the possibility that there could be a Hell. It's similar to paying a bill. One can choose to ignore a bill ant act as if it doesn't exist but eventually one will get sent to a bill collector and will have to face the fact that it DOES exist.
Logged

ledhead830

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +438/-743
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 3,462
  • You'll Never Walk Alone
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2012, 11:35:19 am »

The only reason to fear death is because one has not accepted Jesus Christ as the Lord of their life. Christians do not fear death. The only reason you no longer seem to fear death is because you don't believe in God, hence you don't believe there is a Hell and you choose simply not to think about the possibility that there could be a Hell. It's similar to paying a bill. One can choose to ignore a bill ant act as if it doesn't exist but eventually one will get sent to a bill collector and will have to face the fact that it DOES exist.

Difference. The bill exists. It's a piece of paper that can be accessed physically. If destroyed, the file exists, which can be accessed physically. There is more than enough evidence to support that ignoring a bill will cause you to have a negative credit report, owe a larger debt, etc.

There is no evidence of a hell.

It's more like tying your left shoe first because one day a friend told you if you didn't you'd get hit by a bus. You don't have evidence for this, but you continue to tie your left shoe first just in case.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 11:37:09 am by ledhead830 »
Logged

PorkSoda

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +2128/-2226
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 25,023
  • chill'n like a villian
    • It's a Jeep thing...
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2012, 11:36:44 am »

seems like an all powerful being would have more important things to do than judge the lives of a few ants living on a clod of dirt floating through space.

Agnosticism is kind of like a 12 step program. the first thing you have to do is admit you don't know.

That is pretty hard for most people.
Logged

99toLife

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +788/-4598
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13,151
  • 10-8 with 21+ wins and NCAAT bid
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2012, 11:39:14 am »

seems like an all powerful being would have more important things to do than judge the lives of a few ants living on a clod of dirt floating through space.

Agnosticism is kind of like a 12 step program. the first thing you have to do is admit you don't know.

That is pretty hard for most people.

Agree.
Logged

PorkSoda

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +2128/-2226
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 25,023
  • chill'n like a villian
    • It's a Jeep thing...
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2012, 11:43:13 am »

Difference. The bill exists. It's a piece of paper that can be accessed physically. If destroyed, the file exists, which can be accessed physically. There is more than enough evidence to support that ignoring a bill will cause you to have a negative credit report, owe a larger debt, etc.

There is no evidence of a hell.

It's more like tying your left shoe first because one day a friend told you if you didn't you'd get hit by a bus. You don't have evidence for this, but you continue to tie your left shoe first just in case.

Its hard to be a true agnostic, because you have to admit you don't know if there is a hell or not.

Gamma radiation existed long before we humans had a way to measure and observe it. 

Part of agnosticism is recognizing ones own short comings by acknowledging what you don't know.  Only then can you make an assessment of what can be known and make conscious decisions from there.
Logged

PorkSoda

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +2128/-2226
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 25,023
  • chill'n like a villian
    • It's a Jeep thing...
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2012, 11:50:40 am »

I've read before (a comical jab, yes) that agnostics are the "king of the fence sitters", in that they won't go too far to either side but teeter between both. However in most of my discussions with people who claim to be agnostics, they have a definite opinion against God being who He says He is, whether that is intended or just by accident I don't know.
is fence sitting all that bad when it is a conscious choice?  I think agnostics are open to the possibility of a higher power or creator, they just don't believe every human who runs around claiming they know the nature and will of said higher power.  you have to admit that the ratio of BS to actual knowledge is in the billions to 1 ration. 
Logged

Terry (GUVHOG) Holcomb

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +3712/-7627
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 31,671
  • Future Global Moderator Now Posting Cautiously!
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2012, 11:51:39 am »

Difference. The bill exists. It's a piece of paper that can be accessed physically. If destroyed, the file exists, which can be accessed physically. There is more than enough evidence to support that ignoring a bill will cause you to have a negative credit report, owe a larger debt, etc.

There is no evidence of a hell.

It's more like tying your left shoe first because one day a friend told you if you didn't you'd get hit by a bus. You don't have evidence for this, but you continue to tie your left shoe first just in case.

That's not exactly true. You should read about the experiences of people who have died and were brought back to life. What they testify to seeing and hearing while they were dead is very convincing.
Logged

ledhead830

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +438/-743
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 3,462
  • You'll Never Walk Alone
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2012, 11:52:10 am »

Its hard to be a true agnostic, because you have to admit you don't know if there is a hell or not.

Gamma radiation existed long before we humans had a way to measure and observe it. 

Part of agnosticism is recognizing ones own short comings by acknowledging what you don't know.  Only then can you make an assessment of what can be known and make conscious decisions from there.

That's why I said, "there is no evidence of a hell" and not, "there is no hell." I am not certain it doesn't exist; however, given the evidence, it appears a man-made delusion invented by pre-enlightenment societies.
Logged

ledhead830

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +438/-743
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 3,462
  • You'll Never Walk Alone
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2012, 11:53:27 am »

That's not exactly true. You should read about the experiences of people who have died and were brought back to life. What they testify to seeing and hearing while they were dead is very convincing.

No reliable evidence then.

Most research suggest NDEs are part of a coping mechanism for the brain when the body is at it's most stressed (astronauts experience these all the time in training).
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 11:55:45 am by ledhead830 »
Logged

PorkSoda

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +2128/-2226
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 25,023
  • chill'n like a villian
    • It's a Jeep thing...
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2012, 11:54:47 am »

That's why I said, "there is no evidence of a hell" and not, "there is no hell." I am not certain it doesn't exist; however, given the evidence, it appears a man-made delusion invented by pre-enlightenment societies.
fair enough, I don't disagree, just trying to think critically about things.

in this case, what we do know about humans points to your conclusion.  even the bible is very muddy concerning hell.  when christians mention hell, do they mean Gehenna, Shoel, Hades, the lake of fire? likely just some concoction of ideas told to them as children that have little or no biblical reference.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 11:58:51 am by PorkSoda »
Logged

Terry (GUVHOG) Holcomb

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +3712/-7627
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 31,671
  • Future Global Moderator Now Posting Cautiously!
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2012, 11:55:43 am »

No reliable evidence then.

So you don't believe the testimony of people who've been there and back is reliable??? I respectfully disagree.
Logged

99toLife

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +788/-4598
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13,151
  • 10-8 with 21+ wins and NCAAT bid
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2012, 11:57:09 am »

That's not exactly true. You should read about the experiences of people who have died and were brought back to life. What they testify to seeing and hearing while they were dead is very convincing.

I have flat lined, but that is not technically dead. And you can still dream.
Logged

Terry (GUVHOG) Holcomb

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +3712/-7627
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 31,671
  • Future Global Moderator Now Posting Cautiously!
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2012, 12:01:58 pm »

No reliable evidence then.

Most research suggest NDEs are part of a coping mechanism for the brain when the body is at it's most stressed (astronauts experience these all the time in training).

Some research but not necessarily most. There has been a great deal of research done on the afterlife experiences of those who have been brought back after dying. The vivid details given by the people have led many scientists (not necessarily most) to conclude that there is life after death (both Heaven and Hell).
Logged

PorkSoda

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +2128/-2226
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 25,023
  • chill'n like a villian
    • It's a Jeep thing...
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2012, 12:03:14 pm »

its pretty common knowledge that optical illusions exist.  infact many are created by the brain itself to fill in information that it doesn't have.  for instance we all have a blind spot in our vision that our brain automatically fills with what it thinks should be there.   

The reason 'back from the dead' experiences are not reliable is that very reason (and others)  with the lack of outside stimulus the brain will create what it thinks is there.
Logged

99toLife

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +788/-4598
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13,151
  • 10-8 with 21+ wins and NCAAT bid
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2012, 12:04:06 pm »

Some research but not necessarily most. There has been a great deal of research done on the afterlife experiences of those who have been brought back after dying. The vivid details given by the people have led many scientists (not necessarily most) to conclude that there is life after death (both Heaven and Hell).

Dreams are NOT proof of anything!
Logged

PorkSoda

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +2128/-2226
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 25,023
  • chill'n like a villian
    • It's a Jeep thing...
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2012, 12:05:59 pm »

The vivid details given by the people have led many scientists (not necessarily most) to conclude that there is life after death (both Heaven and Hell).

not saying there isn't 'life after death'.  energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only change forms.  that said, the idea that there is a christian heaven/hell is silly.  like I said above. the bible is very muddy in its discussion of both topics.
Logged

Terry (GUVHOG) Holcomb

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +3712/-7627
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 31,671
  • Future Global Moderator Now Posting Cautiously!
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #32 on: May 15, 2012, 12:10:34 pm »

its pretty common knowledge that optical illusions exist.  infact many are created by the brain itself to fill in information that it doesn't have.  for instance we all have a blind spot in our vision that our brain automatically fills with what it thinks should be there.   

The reason 'back from the dead' experiences are not reliable is that very reason (and others)  with the lack of outside stimulus the brain will create what it thinks is there.

That's just the point. Optical illusions occur in living people where it can be proven that they happened. Not so with people who've been brought back from death. There is no scientific way to prove they had optical illusions. Some scientists assume it is so because they can find no other scientific explanation.
Logged

PorkSoda

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +2128/-2226
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 25,023
  • chill'n like a villian
    • It's a Jeep thing...
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #33 on: May 15, 2012, 12:11:47 pm »

That's just the point. Optical illusions occur in living people where it can be proven that they happened. Not so with people who've been brought back from death. There is no scientific way to prove they had optical illusions. Some scientists assume it is so because they can find no other scientific explanation.
just like you assume that it proves what you already believe.

the mind is not to be trusted.
Logged

Terry (GUVHOG) Holcomb

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +3712/-7627
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 31,671
  • Future Global Moderator Now Posting Cautiously!
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #34 on: May 15, 2012, 12:14:36 pm »

Dreams are NOT proof of anything!

According to the studies done, they aren't dreams. There have been several books written about the scientific studies done on this subject. I'll see if I can get some of the book titles in the next few days.
Logged

Terry (GUVHOG) Holcomb

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +3712/-7627
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 31,671
  • Future Global Moderator Now Posting Cautiously!
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #35 on: May 15, 2012, 12:16:30 pm »

just like you assume that it proves what you already believe.

the mind is not to be trusted.

I'm not assuming anything. There have been several books written on the scientific studies about it.
Logged

99toLife

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +788/-4598
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13,151
  • 10-8 with 21+ wins and NCAAT bid
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #36 on: May 15, 2012, 12:19:35 pm »

I'm not assuming anything. There have been several books written on the scientific studies about it.

There have also been several books written on Bigfoot and Martians doesn't prove anything.
Logged

PorkSoda

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +2128/-2226
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 25,023
  • chill'n like a villian
    • It's a Jeep thing...
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #37 on: May 15, 2012, 12:20:30 pm »

I'm not assuming anything. There have been several books written on the scientific studies about it.
you are assuming they are unbiased.  you are assuming that they prove what you already believe.  If you can't see the giant leaps in assumption, then I can only assume you've told yourself your own story so many times that you now believe that story to be true.

in that case there is no sense arguing with you because you are delusional.  at some point you have to be honest with yourself and take stock on what you can know to be true, not just what you have told yourself is true.

how did that old quote go?  "the worst lies are the lies we tell ourselves..."
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 12:35:08 pm by PorkSoda »
Logged

panhandlepig

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +406/-975
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 4,055
  • don't worry about a thing
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #38 on: May 15, 2012, 12:32:45 pm »



   Although I do believe that there are forces in the Universe that can't be explained, where I differ with religion is, I don't attempt to name it..or worship it.  I know that religious beliefs are largely an accident of birth. Someone born in Arkansas is going to have a different religion than someone born in China.

   I have no problem with religion for those that practice it.  My problem is when they think they have the only "Truth" and think they know all the answers.  Like my Daddy said, "If and when, God decides to let us Humans in on the whole thing, I doubt very seriously He's going to choose one of those Preacher-types"...and this from a Man whose taught Sunday School for 60 years.  He is one of the finest Christian Men I know.  He's just smart enough to acknowledge that other religions are just as valid as his.

 
Logged

spe450

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +463/-605
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 3,982
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #39 on: May 15, 2012, 12:43:52 pm »



the first thing you have to do is admit you don't know.


Golf claps....summed up what should be the entire thread in one sentence.

This statement ultimately destroys the "fence sitter" impression many from either side have of us.  To me, it means that I am not going to be arrogant enough to claim to know something that I cannot.
Logged

spe450

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +463/-605
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 3,982
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2012, 12:47:21 pm »

I'm not assuming anything. There have been several books written on the scientific studies about it.

Better yet, find articles in well known psychological or neuroscience journals.  That would lend more credence to your argument.
Logged

jtaylor2d

  • Bench Warmer
  • ***
  • Karma: +24/-20
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 82
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #41 on: May 15, 2012, 12:50:23 pm »

The only reason to fear death is because one has not accepted Jesus Christ as the Lord of their life. Christians do not fear death. The only reason you no longer seem to fear death is because you don't believe in God, hence you don't believe there is a Hell and you choose simply not to think about the possibility that there could be a Hell. It's similar to paying a bill. One can choose to ignore a bill ant act as if it doesn't exist but eventually one will get sent to a bill collector and will have to face the fact that it DOES exist.

You see, to me this is just non sense talk from someone who lives in their little bubble.

I've traveled all around the world and been with people of many faiths and cultures and I can assure you that the average person in Thailand who fears death is not because of Jesus Christ. To think otherwise is pure ignorance.

You are right, I don't believe in heaven, nor do I believe in hell, nor do I believe any of the other campfire stories that people have told since man popped up.

If there is heaven and hell though, I'll talk the hell route. I've always enjoyed warmer weather and I'm pretty sure some fellow Hog fans will be done there too. I'd prefer not to live at the right hand of a God who at one time murdered all the men, women, children of the Earth with a giant flood because he was mad, I have higher standards than that.
Logged

Albert Einswine

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +2824/-2148
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 19,464
  • #6278
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #42 on: May 15, 2012, 12:53:23 pm »

I wouldn't believe in Christ if I hadn't experienced His reality in my body and mind.  I didn't want to, evaded it even.  I can't explain, so I won't try.  I just know that He is and I'm satisfied.

I'm not religious, either.  I don't have the time or energy for that mess.
Logged

Michaelt

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +1751/-2078
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 13,490
  • Luke 9:23
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #43 on: May 15, 2012, 01:15:23 pm »

is fence sitting all that bad when it is a conscious choice?  I think agnostics are open to the possibility of a higher power or creator, they just don't believe every human who runs around claiming they know the nature and will of said higher power.  you have to admit that the ratio of BS to actual knowledge is in the billions to 1 ration. 

Is it bad? That really depends on which side of the fence reality sits I'd guess.

Logged

Michaelt

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +1751/-2078
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 13,490
  • Luke 9:23
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #44 on: May 15, 2012, 01:16:58 pm »

not saying there isn't 'life after death'.  energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only change forms.  that said, the idea that there is a christian heaven/hell is silly.  like I said above. the bible is very muddy in its discussion of both topics.

the Bible is muddy in its' discussion of heaven and hell? Disagree. I'd say people muddy the teaching of scripture concerning heaven and hell.
Logged

Michaelt

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +1751/-2078
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 13,490
  • Luke 9:23
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #45 on: May 15, 2012, 01:18:30 pm »

I wouldn't believe in Christ if I hadn't experienced His reality in my body and mind.  I didn't want to, evaded it even.  I can't explain, so I won't try.  I just know that He is and I'm satisfied.

I'm not religious, either.  I don't have the time or energy for that mess.
Logged

99toLife

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +788/-4598
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13,151
  • 10-8 with 21+ wins and NCAAT bid
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #46 on: May 15, 2012, 01:19:01 pm »

the Bible is muddy in its' discussion of heaven and hell? Disagree. I'd say people muddy the teaching of scripture concerning heaven and hell.

Does the Bible ever say the word Hell or is this a word we made up over time?
Logged

panhandlepig

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Karma: +406/-975
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 4,055
  • don't worry about a thing
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #47 on: May 15, 2012, 01:24:10 pm »

the Bible is muddy in its' discussion of heaven and hell? Disagree. I'd say people muddy the teaching of scripture concerning heaven and hell.

  On this I agree with you. The Bible is muddy about all kinds of things.  And yes, since people wrote the bible, no one should be surprised about that.
Logged

Michaelt

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +1751/-2078
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 13,490
  • Luke 9:23
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #48 on: May 15, 2012, 01:34:47 pm »

  On this I agree with you. The Bible is muddy about all kinds of things.  And yes, since people wrote the bible, no one should be surprised about that.

There are those who hold that the Bible is not muddy at all, but more it's the lack of understanding of those who have studied and commented about it through history. Also, there are many who believe that although men wrote the Bible, they were guided by the Spirit of God to write down what God wanted written down.

Logged

Michaelt

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Karma: +1751/-2078
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 13,490
  • Luke 9:23
Re: Agnosticism
« Reply #49 on: May 15, 2012, 01:37:44 pm »

Does the Bible ever say the word Hell or is this a word we made up over time?

There are at least two or three words in the Hebrew and Greek that were used to describe attributes of hell, Sheol, gehenna, and hades are the ones I'm most familiar with. Most of the english translations of the Bible write out hell, and they translate back to these words in the original languages.

There may well be others that I'm not familiar with.

Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 ... 360   Go Up
 

Partnered with USA TODAY Sports Digital Properties

Your browser is archaic. Your browser is antiquated. Your browser... it FILS! Update it, please.
KARK
KWNA
Fox 16 Arkansas Your browser is archaic. Your browser is antiquated. Your browser... it FILS! Update it, please.