Projected 2013 HOF Class

[woo.pig]

Great name class next year, but I only see Craig Biggio getting in.

2013 Class

Craig Biggio: 20 years, 3,060 H, 291 HR, 1,175 RBI, 1,840 R, 414 SB, .281 BA, .796 OPS68.
Mike Piazza: 16 years, 2,127 H, 427 HR, 1,335 RBI, 1,048 R, .308 BA, .922 OPS47.
Curt Schilling: 20 years, 216-146, 3.46 ERA, 2,998 K, 83 CG43.
Barry Bonds: 22 years, 2,935 H, 762 HR, 1,996 RBI, 2,227 R, 514 SB, .298 BA, 1.051 OPS39.
Roger Clemens: 24 years, 354-184, 3.12 ERA, 4,672 K, 118 CG22.
Sammy Sosa: 18 years, 2,408 H, 609 HR, 1,667 RBI, 1,475 R, 234 SB, .273 BA, .878 OPS.
Kenny Lofton: 17 years, 2,428 H, 130 HR, 781 RBI, 1,528 R, 622 SB, .299 BA, .794 OPS.
David Wells: 21 years, 239-157, 4.13 ERA, 2,201 K, 54 CG8.
Julio Franco: 23 years, 2,586 H, 173 HR, 1,285 RBI, 281 SB, .298 BA, .782 OPS.
Steve Finley: 19 years, 2,548 H, 304 HR, 1,167 RBI, 1,443 R, 320 SB, .271 BA, .775 OPS

[ErieHog]

Bonds will still probably get in next year, even with everything hanging over him.

[bsking]

Bonds will still probably get in next year, even with everything hanging over him.

That would be shocking.  If Mac can't get in, Bonds can't either.

Piazza will make it.  He's the greatest offensive catcher of all time.

[Shag66]

Bonds will still probably get in next year, even with everything hanging over him.

It is completely insane that Rose isn't in the HOF...


Grats to Larkin.  Great player.

[ErieHog]

That would be shocking.  If Mac can't get in, Bonds can't either.

Piazza will make it.  He's the greatest offensive catcher of all time.

Two completely different players, IMHO.  One is the greatest hitter who ever lived, and was a HOFer before PEDs even came into question, and the other is a borderline guy even with PEDs, who really doesn't belong.

[bsking]

Two completely different players, IMHO.  One is the greatest hitter who ever lived, and was a HOFer before PEDs even came into question, and the other is a borderline guy even with PEDs, who really doesn't belong.

Borderline with PEDs?  Dude had 583 HR and an OPS of .982.  That's nowhere close to the borderline.

And as for when bonds began roiding.  Who knows?  I honestly think he began to get substantially bigger in 1994.  And he was NOT a HOFer before then.

[ErieHog]

Borderline with PEDs?  Dude had 583 HR and an OPS of .982.  That's nowhere close to the borderline.

And as for when bonds began roiding.  Who knows?  I honestly think he began to get substantially bigger in 1994.  And he was NOT a HOFer before then.

A few things:

Bonds was already a 3 time MVP-  and every player who's won more than 2 MVPs is in the Hall.  Yes, he was a mortal lock, no doubt at all Hall of Famer already by 1994.   

McGwire is Kingman with a better walk rate;  even with his hyper inflated walk rates, he cruises in with a lifetime average of .263 and was, at his peak, an adequate defender-- his 1990 gold glove is Jeterish before there was a Jeter.   For a guy who's bat is supposed to have been among the most feared of all time, he ranks a paltry 91st in career WAR for position players.

[bsking]

McGwire is Kingman with a better walk rate;  even with his hyper inflated walk rates, he cruises in with a lifetime average of .263 and was, at his peak, an adequate defender-- his 1990 gold glove is Jeterish before there was a Jeter.   For a guy who's bat is supposed to have been among the most feared of all time, he ranks a paltry 91st in career WAR for position players.

I don't care if he hit .200 with 500 errors.  583 HR and a .982 OPS gets you in on its own.  That's 10th all time in both categories. 

[ucahogfan]

I don't care if he hit .200 with 500 errors.  583 HR and a .982 OPS gets you in on its own.  That's 10th all time in both categories.

If I remember correctly, he also hit 49 HRs as a rookie before he really bulked up.  He would have done fine without steriods.

[Tai_Mai_Shu]

Is Jeff Bagwell not eligible yet? I thought him and Biggio retired the same time? 

I would love for Sammy Sosa to get in because I'm a Cubs fan but with the steroids thing I don't think he'll get in the first time. 

I think the only shoe in is Mike Piazza only because he's the best offensive catcher of all time.

[ErieHog]

Is Jeff Bagwell not eligible yet? I thought him and Biggio retired the same time? 

I would love for Sammy Sosa to get in because I'm a Cubs fan but with the steroids thing I don't think he'll get in the first time. 

I think the only shoe in is Mike Piazza only because he's the best offensive catcher of all time.

Bagwell got 56% of the vote this year, his first year of eligibility.   It's a really solid number, and I don't think anyone who got over 55% in their first year hasn't been enshrined eventually.

[LVW]

I don't care if he hit .200 with 500 errors.  583 HR and a .982 OPS gets you in on its own.  That's 10th all time in both categories. 

Except no .982 OPS with a .200 average.

[bsking]

Except no .982 OPS with a .200 average.

Average isn't factored into OPS.  So, yeah it is possible.  Unlikely, but my statement stands true as intended.

[LVW]

Average isn't factored into OPS.  So, yeah it is possible.  Unlikely, but my statement stands true as intended.

Average IS factored into OPS- OPS is OB%:(Hits+Walks+HB)/(AB+Walks+HB+SF) PLUS Slugging%:(1B+ 2B*2 + 3B*3 + HR*4)/AB..........so

If a player is 1 for 2 with a single and no walks/hb his OPS is 1.000(.500 avg +.500 OB%) then goes 0 for 1 his OPS drops to .666(.333 avg + .333 OB%).

[bsking]

Average IS factored into OPS- OPS is OB%:(Hits+Walks+HB)/(AB+Walks+HB+SF) PLUS Slugging%:(1B+ 2B*2 + 3B*3 + HR*4)/AB..........so

If a player is 1 for 2 with a single and no walks/hb his OPS is 1.000(.500 avg +.500 OB%) then goes 0 for 1 his OPS drops to .666(.333 avg + .333 OB%).

No.  It is not.  OBP is NOT AVG.  You could have a 1.000 OPS and a .000 average.  Fact.

[LVW]

No.  It is not.  OBP is NOT AVG. 

Reaching base via a hit is part of OB%. You bat 4 times with 1 hit and 1 walk, that's a .500 OB%. You bat 5 times with 1 hit and 1 walk that's a .400 OB%.

Back to the original point; McGwire had a .263 career average(1626 for 6187)  with a .982 OPS. In order to get his average to .200 in 6187 ABs you would have to take away 389 hits which puts him at 1237 hits. In turn that knocks down the number of times reaching base to 2629(in 7660 PAs) for a .343 OB%.  Also that would put his total bases down to 3250(in 6187 ABs) for a .525 Slug%.  .525+.343= .877; so like I said no .982 OPS with a .200 average for Big Mac.

[bsking]

Reaching base via a hit is part of OB%. You bat 4 times with 1 hit and 1 walk, that's a .500 OB%. You bat 5 times with 1 hit and 1 walk that's a .400 OB%.

Back to the original point; McGwire had a .263 career average(1626 for 6187)  with a .982 OPS. In order to get his average to .200 in 6187 ABs you would have to take away 389 hits which puts him at 1237 hits. In turn that knocks down the number of times reaching base to 2629(in 7660 PAs) for a .343 OB%.  Also that would put his total bases down to 3250(in 6187 ABs) for a .525 Slug%.  .525+.343= .877; so like I said no .982 OPS with a .200 average for Big Mac.

Dude.  I threw out a hypothetical situation to emphasize how good 2 of his stats in particular were.  The statement was 100% correct.  I know what OBP and OPS are, probably better than you.

I'm not entire sure why you are going to such lengths to try to prove me wrong but it isn't going to happen. 

[LVW]

Dude.   I know what OBP and OPS are, probably better than you.

ROFLMAO

DUDE, I've been doing baseball stats since I was 5 years old. I've read, studied, created, and experimented with more different kinds of stats using linear regression models, variance, standard deviation, etc. than you can possibly imagine. OB% and OPS is nursery school stuff compared to it.

[bsking]

ROFLMAO

DUDE, I've been doing baseball stats since I was 5 years old. I've read, studied, created, and experimented with more different kinds of stats using linear regression models, variance, standard deviation, etc. than you can possibly imagine. OB% and OPS is nursery school stuff compared to it.

If you're 1/3 as smart as you try to portray then I have no idea why you can't comprehend what I said.  Or why you insist on trying to prove you know what your talking about by pulling out hypothetical assertions and trying as hard as you can to prove them invalid.  And failing.

[Hawg Balling]

Two completely different players, IMHO.  One is the greatest hitter who ever lived, and was a HOFer before PEDs even came into question, and the other is a borderline guy even with PEDs, who really doesn't belong.

I don't keep up with baseball HOF elections like I do football, but do the baseball voters try to hold up a player's HOF entrance (or at least put up a fight) because of grudges they might hold for specific guys who were media-unfriendly in their playing days like the football voters do (see Cris Carter)? Agree that Bonds was a HOFer before PEDs, but it'll be interesting to see if some of those guys don't use the PED excuse to enforce grudges and make him sweat.

[Hawg Balling]

Biggio and Piazza, IMO.

PEDs might keep Piazza out, or at least hamper his chances according to Jeff Pearlman.

[LVW]

Or why you insist on trying to prove you know what your talking about by pulling out hypothetical assertions

Dude.  I threw out a hypothetical situation to emphasize how good 2 of his stats in particular were. 

You mean like you attempted to do.

[bsking]

You mean like you attempted to do.

I have no idea what that was even about.  What purpose does it serve to crypt rob an old argument?

[PintailKiller]

Reaching base via a hit is part of OB%. You bat 4 times with 1 hit and 1 walk, that's a .500 OB%. You bat 5 times with 1 hit and 1 walk that's a .400 OB%.

The above is incorrect.  4 ABs with 1 hit and 1 walk is only a .400 OB%.  5ABs with a hit and a walk =.333.

[LVW]

The above is incorrect.  4 ABs with 1 hit and 1 walk is only a .400 OB%.  5ABs with a hit and a walk =.333.

I said he batted 4 times, I didn't say 4 ABs.

[bsking]

The above is incorrect.  4 ABs with 1 hit and 1 walk is only a .400 OB%.  5ABs with a hit and a walk =.333.

Just don't.  This guy will argue the sky is green till he's blue in the face.