There is a huge variable to what we as fans do when assessing recruits and recruiting - we rarely see the players in person, and even more rarely on the field.

I have the privilege of season tickets that allow me a CLOSE view of the recruits in RRS. My job allows me to occasionally see HS games locally.

A year ago (fall 2008) I saw Cam Feldt several times at games. The kid was ready to suit up for the Hogs as a junior. Thick, thick chest, long arms, etc. Well-developed athlete, not just "big". Not a lot of extra fat that needs Veltkamp's magic.

Its called the eyeball test.

Anyone seen Braylon Mitchell, LB recruit, up close? Good lord. Kid is well-built. Tall waist, thick chest, broad shoulders, big thighs. Kid stands a chance to contribute next year if he can add 20 pounds between early November and next August (reasonable, Terrell Williams did it, and the only difference between these two players is Williams might be a bit taller, but Mitchell as a senior in HS is thicker).

Jordan Rainey is not as carved as Feldt. Darn close, though. He LOOKS the part. Think of the serviceable UA linemen over the years. Think of those that started and were anchors under Nutt, and now Petrino. NONE of them that I saw at games (including Andrews, Luigs, Cook, Freeman, Grayson and others) has the physique of Rainey or Feldt. That means squat, I realize, in the big picture, but it SHOULD matter in rankings/ratings.

Anyone notice that Rainey/Hefley's HS coach doesn't publicize stats? NO ONE KNOWS what they really did as seniors in HS. Hard to eval what you can't see. The video on those two is from a year ago, and one of them was at a much smaller HS in KS. Really hard to translate into a ranking/rating.

I saw David Gordon in HS. Saw him run track as a senior. Geebus. Kid wasn't skinny and fast, he was well-built and FAST. Built like an athlete not a distance runner.  Alvin Bailey throwing the shot is an impressive act of athleticism - he'll be a star, I promise. Oh, but he was only a midrange 3-star recruit...

I saw Felix Jones play HS football and basketball. Some doubted him as a target on another board in the December of his senior year. He hadn't committed yet and fans were hoping we'd get Roy Upchurch out of Florida instead. It seems that Roy had produced better on the field as a Junior, gotten more highlight reel material out to the gurus, while Felix lost his Junior year to an injury.

Felix started slowly as a senior, and it wasn't until the playoffs that he really blossomed and got back to 100 percent healthwise. Folks on message boards were saying, "Upchurch is rated higher and his highlights are better". Uh, because Felix didn't get highlights to the gooroos for his senior year until very late.

I saw him on a fast break on the hardwood. He cut between two defenders and did a tomahawk jam from the free throw line. Saw it later that night on TV so it wasn't my imagination. The most impressive HS basketball move I've seen live since watching Waymon Tisdale in HS. I knew Felix had that special something that UA fans came to love, while Upchurch toils as 3rd teamer at Bama.

Both Jones and Upchurch were 4-star recruits, but Upchurch was the "prize" for many.  The key for me (and I began selling it as soon as I saw Felix live in FB, but especially after seeing him in hoops) was FIRST-HAND contact.

What impressed about DD Jones last year? His summer/fall gooroo numbers had him at something like 265 pounds. Folks questioned his weight. Really.

Then, after he visited his REAL size leaked out (I'm sure Petrino loved that) and news spread fast that he was 2 inches taller and over 300 pounds but chiseled. That's a key thing for the DL we covet - they have to be lean, or we lose a year tearing them down and rebuilding them. Most on here want DL who can contribute next year - better to get a Jeremiah Jackson who is well-built (have you seen him in person? dang) and able to add good weight and muscle quickly vs others who might look better on the gooroos sites but need a year with Veltkamp.

There is another factor that has hurt some high-profile recruits with UA - they lack the work ethic that Petrino demands. It scares the recruits, in some cases. In others, the staff looks at a HS kid who is lazy and doesn't work hard in the weight room and on academics when its easy, in HS, and they get cold feet. We've pulled off of at least 4 high-profile recruits whose commitment would surge us into the top 25, if not higher, simply because of this paragraph.

I'll let that sink in - backchannel chatter suggests we pulled offers, or the equivalent, from players looking at UA or wanting to come here, because of issues unrelated to their talent on the field. Some of these kids show up with an offer and by the time they've slept in a motel for a night or two on their official visit they've lost the offer. Yet, we spew onward that our recruiting sucks.

No, our fanbase's knowledge of how recruiting works for Petrino sucks.

When your only basis for analysis is stars and rankings you miss the point. Thankfully, my donation to the RF is not wasted by a staff who is lazy, or chases kids who don't have a shot of making it (either to campus, or once they are here).

I feel like I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express when I read some of your posts.

Thank you sir.

Quote from: Seebs on December 21, 2009, 12:45:45 pm
I feel like I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express when I read some of your posts.

Thank you sir.

This one was a bit more "extended stay". Sorry for the length.

So, I'm confused...Petrino is smarter than the recruiting services because like you he uses the "eyeball test".  But a guy that works for Rivals or Scout uses another more complex (I assume) evaluation technique and will get it wrong more than Petrino will get it right.  If you and Petrino can just use your eyes to figure out who is good and bad, then why can't Rivals and Scout do that too? 

I think both sides (the star-gazers and the trust Petrino no matter what happens) are wrong.  First, a lot of the trust Petrino folks were star-gazers last year when we did have lots of stars, but they've had to change their strategy.  That's inconsistent.  You're also discounting that we've lost a lot of recruits that Petrino wanted AND had lots of stars.  In those cases, the recruiting services and Petrino wanted them, which means it's bad for us if we lose them.  the true star-gazers are discounting the possibility that a 3-star athlete can be just as good as a 4 or 5-star by their junior years. 

Our goal at Arkansas should be to get as many stars and ranked as high as we possibly can (we won't beat Florida, USC, etc but we can get as close to them as possible).  We did that last year and EVERYONE was happy and it turns out that Petrino, Scout, and Rivals were all right.  That's NOT happening this year and therefore I see why some are anxious. 

Bravo.  I'm sure the Iraqi Information Minister picture will show its face in this thread again, but what you said needed to be said.  There are a lot of people that don't do anything but look at stars, and that includes the recruiting rankings.  Recruiting is not just about stars.

I understand, based on what we have been through, why people don't, but please, people, trust our coach.

Quote from: Razorfox on December 21, 2009, 12:55:54 pm
So, I'm confused...Petrino is smarter than the recruiting services because like you he uses the "eyeball test".  But a guy that works for Rivals or Scout uses another more complex (I assume) evaluation technique and will get it wrong more than Petrino will get it right.  If you and Petrino can just use your eyes to figure out who is good and bad, then why can't Rivals and Scout do that too? 

I think both sides (the star-gazers and the trust Petrino no matter what happens) are wrong.  First, a lot of the trust Petrino folks were star-gazers last year when we did have lots of stars, but they've had to change their strategy.  That's inconsistent.  You're also discounting that we've lost a lot of recruits that Petrino wanted AND had lots of stars.  In those cases, the recruiting services and Petrino wanted them, which means it's bad for us if we lose them.  the true star-gazers are discounting the possibility that a 3-star athlete can be just as good as a 4 or 5-star by their junior years. 

Our goal at Arkansas should be to get as many stars and ranked as high as we possibly can (we won't beat Florida, USC, etc but we can get as close to them as possible).  We did that last year and EVERYONE was happy and it turns out that Petrino, Scout, and Rivals were all right.  That's NOT happening this year and therefore I see why some are anxious. 

I don't think people are saying it's a case of Petrino vs the services. As you note, there are certainly some highly rated kids that this staff wanted that have, at least for now, chosen not to come to the U of A. I think the diversion of opinion is happening at the next step. Some here seem to be convinced that since the staff has missed on these kids, this class is not any good. Some, myself included, believe that, while it's dissappointing to not get the stars they've missed on, CBP and staff have shown a tremendous ability to find kids in that fringe area of the rankings who can be very good DI players anyway. Not that they're necessarily better than the kids that chose elsewhere, but that they can be quality pickups in their own right. He (CBP) has shown this both in Fayetteville and at UL,

Would he like to have those "stars" in this class? Clearly yes since he offered them schollies. But not getting them doesn't mean this will be a failure of a class.

I think the goal should not be simply stars and rankings. It should be to assemble the best football TEAM they can. Sometimes those two things will not lead you to all the same kids. If they do, and as the on the field record improves I think they will more often, then fantastic. Arkansas is not there...yet. They may never be, but until I have reason to doubt him, I will trust CBP and staff to be able to find the pieces they need, even if they occasionally have to dig a little deeper than they'd like. Again, they've shown they can do it, no reason to think they forgot how suddenly.



Go Hogs! Beat E Carolina!

Quote from: Razorfox on December 21, 2009, 12:55:54 pm
So, I'm confused...Petrino is smarter than the recruiting services because like you he uses the "eyeball test".  But a guy that works for Rivals or Scout uses another more complex (I assume) evaluation technique and will get it wrong more than Petrino will get it right.  If you and Petrino can just use your eyes to figure out who is good and bad, then why can't Rivals and Scout do that too? 

I think both sides (the star-gazers and the trust Petrino no matter what happens) are wrong.  First, a lot of the trust Petrino folks were star-gazers last year when we did have lots of stars, but they've had to change their strategy.  That's inconsistent.  You're also discounting that we've lost a lot of recruits that Petrino wanted AND had lots of stars.  In those cases, the recruiting services and Petrino wanted them, which means it's bad for us if we lose them.  the true star-gazers are discounting the possibility that a 3-star athlete can be just as good as a 4 or 5-star by their junior years. 

Our goal at Arkansas should be to get as many stars and ranked as high as we possibly can (we won't beat Florida, USC, etc but we can get as close to them as possible).  We did that last year and EVERYONE was happy and it turns out that Petrino, Scout, and Rivals were all right.  That's NOT happening this year and therefore I see why some are anxious. 

Let me see if I understand what you are trying to say. You would rather sit at your computer and watch some tape of kids that play the same position then make your own evaluation. This would be without EVER seeing them in person, talking to them, checking their academics, checking their back ground, see how they interact with the other kids that are already here, finding out what other coaches that these kids play against think of them, and well the list could on.

Yes Coach Petrino is smarter than the recruiting services because he does ALL of the homework. These guys at the services have improved their product but their job is not to win football games but to sell subscriptions. Here are a few questions for you.....

How many recruits have we offered that were immediatly followed up with offers from other schools? How many recruits have visited that were or are commits to other schools? How many recruits have changes their commitment from another school to UA? When was the last time you scouted up 10 kids 18 years old from different parts of the country to choose just 2 as if your job depended on it?

The services have nothing vested in their opinions other than selling subscriptions. I for one do not want Rivals or Scout doing my recruiting.

racinghog,

I have no doubt that Coach Petrino does that stuff and more.  But it's ridiculous to think that he's the only one (which is what you're implying).  All the big-time coaches are doing this stuff. 

Example: They can't legally sign 200 4 and 5-star players at Florida.  So what do they do?  They cut it down to 25 4 and 5-star players that best fit by talking to them, seeing them in person, checking their academics/background, etc. 

Just because Nutt may not have been so thorough doesn't mean that the rest of the SEC top tier coaches aren't as thorough as Petrino. 

Quote from: Razorfox on December 21, 2009, 02:44:23 pmJust because Nutt may not have been so thorough doesn't mean that the rest of the SEC top tier coaches aren't as thorough as Petrino.

This, ladies and gentlemen, is what all the griping is about.

Quote from: Razorfox on December 21, 2009, 02:44:23 pm
Just because Nutt may not have been so thorough doesn't mean that the rest of the SEC top tier coaches aren't as thorough as Petrino. 

Right now the program is in a slump on the national scene. We missed a bowl last year and 8-5, 5-7, 7-5 are not exactly the kind of seasons that have top recruits tripping over themselves to sign on. So the staff has to do two things: 1) convince highly rated recruits that the program is on the cusp of great things and b) work very hard to make sure that every stone is left unturned in the search for 5.5's that should be 5.7's and 5.7's that should be 5.9s', etc.

I think we must get a class in the top-25'ish because that will mean we have finished the class mostly with top targets.

We were never going to have a top 15 class for three reasons: 1) we are going after needs in the most competitive positions (DL) and we MUST get the best available recruits 2) the class is going to be small which means we must focus on needs--even if that means letting a 4* at a loaded position go elsewyere and 3) the in-state talent pool is thin--esp in our areas of need.

I think we will have a much higher rated class next year (loaded in-state class, more schollies available and much more momentum as we challenge for the SEC-W).

Recruit wisely->coach talent up->win->Recruit better. Rinse, repeat.

Quote from: Razorfox on December 21, 2009, 02:44:23 pm
racinghog,

I have no doubt that Coach Petrino does that stuff and more.  But it's ridiculous to think that he's the only one (which is what you're implying).  All the big-time coaches are doing this stuff. 

Example: They can't legally sign 200 4 and 5-star players at Florida.  So what do they do?  They cut it down to 25 4 and 5-star players that best fit by talking to them, seeing them in person, checking their academics/background, etc. 

Just because Nutt may not have been so thorough doesn't mean that the rest of the SEC top tier coaches aren't as thorough as Petrino. 

No Fox that was not what I was implying. You are correct that the others do the same thing. In fact I get tired this time of year answering the phone just to answer more questions from these guys. As far as Nutt is concerned I never dealt with him or any other coach from AR during his time. My point is the pros do a lot more homework than the recruiting sites and you apparently agree.

See I get stuff from rivals and scout all the time and ignore it. You may find this wrong but they have nothing to do with whether a kid gets an offer or not. When they call I will talk to them and answer their questions as quickly as possible so that I can get on to more important things, like speaking directly to the universities.

I put more faith in the Petrinos, Meyers, Johnsons, Richts and Sabans of this world than I do in an online subscription outfit. Here is a great example. In the SC vs NC Shrine Bowl for HS all-stars Marcus Lattimore a 5 star RB was the Off MVP, Chris Smith an almost 2 star DE was the Def MVP. Go figure.

There's more than a novice fan (me) providing an eyeball test. I was noting that I can sit and compare pudgy OL vs ripped OL. One takes time to reshape, the other does not.

I can witness cutting ability and leg strength watching Felix Jones play hoops. We witness Roy Upchurch spend 4 years at Bama unable to match that. Upchurch sure looked better on film, though.

When I've hired employees over the years I was able to make strong decisions based on things unrelated to actual skill. Charisma shows. Aggressive personalities show. If you are worried that a player will be, uh, a bit lethargic about hitting the books or the weight room it'll show in how they carry themselves.

+1 Oklahawg

Oklahawg,

Just out of curiosity, what were you writing last year after we signed something like 8 4-star players and a top 15 class?  Were you excited about that or were you saying that those Recruiting Services don't know anything and that we actually have the #1 class in the country or that they don't know anything and that our class actually isn't that good?

I'm not saying you all on the "trust Petrino, no matter what happens" crowd are wrong, but I'd be willing to bet money that last year you cared more about stars and rankings than this year. 

Okla,

Great post.

Ditto to racing.

+1 to both of you.

To those who scream 'inconsistent!' I would say...we got a few high stars last year and it was exciting. Fun, even.

And I groused when Coach P went after Cobi so hard...AND Gordon. They were 'only' 3's. I did. I complained.

I was wrong. I learned. The stars are nice, but Coach P's endorsement is nicer.

This isn't last year.

Quote from: Razorfox on December 21, 2009, 04:40:36 pm
Oklahawg,

Just out of curiosity, what were you writing last year after we signed something like 8 4-star players and a top 15 class?  Were you excited about that or were you saying that those Recruiting Services don't know anything and that we actually have the #1 class in the country or that they don't know anything and that our class actually isn't that good?

I'm not saying you all on the "trust Petrino, no matter what happens" crowd are wrong, but I'd be willing to bet money that last year you cared more about stars and rankings than this year. 

I have posted for a long time that Darius Winston would not play as much as David Gordon. So far, that is correct. I posted that Terrell Williams would impact the defense more than Austin Moss. I posted that Alvin Bailey would be the #1 OL in this class before it was said/done. I've seen all three in person, so I let my bias and gut write a check. I'll gladly cash it with humility if that is not as obvious as any puffery I posted about the ranking last year.

I was more impressed with the well-rounded recruiting effort, and the targeting of needs, etc., than I was about the ranking.

Courtney Gatson. He is a 5.7/3-star LB. I've not seen him play. My contact says he's the top player in OK right now. That includes Eric Bennett (Got lots of props from a different source...these guys are in the business of "knowing") and Demarco Cobbs (questions about catching vs running, although no one denies the athleticism). In short, the top-rated Oklahoman has not played a down at WR but that's where he projects. He is dynamite with the ball in his hand, no doubt. Gatson and Bennett play the positions they will play at UA. Bennett will be good, probably not a superstar, but good enough to help. Gatson will be a star. Plain and simple.

El Puerco:  In the business of "knowing"

I can't understand how some people are concerned about recruiting after 10 years of our ex-coach. I'm no genius but I think we'll soar to new heights in the SEC under the new regime. "We don't offer kids from Hoxie or Cabot." or its "We don't get stars like USC so hide the razor blades." blah blah blah....... Gripe about basketball but football is gonna be fine.

Quote from: ROAD HOGG on December 21, 2009, 06:28:32 pm
I believe that Oklahawg could write an excellent Recruiting Column. He evaluates talent pretty well too, but he is a COACH of sorts. That's a different story! Thanks for the info...

+1

Quote from: wendellgee on December 21, 2009, 06:41:04 pm
I can't understand how some people are concerned about recruiting after 10 years of our ex-coach. I'm no genius but I think we'll soar to new heights in the SEC under the new regime. "We don't offer kids from Hoxie or Cabot." or its "We don't get stars like USC so hide the razor blades." blah blah blah....... Gripe about basketball but football is gonna be fine.

It will take a great deal of problems to litter themselves about this football program for anyone to ever lump Petrino in the same boat as Houston Nutt.

Quote from: ROAD HOGG on December 21, 2009, 06:28:32 pm
I believe that Oklahawg could write an excellent Recruiting Column. He evaluates talent pretty well too, but he is a COACH of sorts. That's a different story! Thanks for the info...

Quote from: Corndog7 on December 21, 2009, 06:51:49 pm
+1

Shucks, guys.

Some have suggested that I'd write a lot less if I'd ever finished my dissertation!

Quote from: Razorfox on December 21, 2009, 12:55:54 pm
So, I'm confused...Petrino is smarter than the recruiting services because like you he uses the "eyeball test".  But a guy that works for Rivals or Scout uses another more complex (I assume) evaluation technique and will get it wrong more than Petrino will get it right.  If you and Petrino can just use your eyes to figure out who is good and bad, then why can't Rivals and Scout do that too? 

I think both sides (the star-gazers and the trust Petrino no matter what happens) are wrong.  First, a lot of the trust Petrino folks were star-gazers last year when we did have lots of stars, but they've had to change their strategy.  That's inconsistent.  You're also discounting that we've lost a lot of recruits that Petrino wanted AND had lots of stars.  In those cases, the recruiting services and Petrino wanted them, which means it's bad for us if we lose them.  the true star-gazers are discounting the possibility that a 3-star athlete can be just as good as a 4 or 5-star by their junior years. 

Our goal at Arkansas should be to get as many stars and ranked as high as we possibly can (we won't beat Florida, USC, etc but we can get as close to them as possible).  We did that last year and EVERYONE was happy and it turns out that Petrino, Scout, and Rivals were all right.  That's NOT happening this year and therefore I see why some are anxious.

Amen brother.....Last year petrino was the greatest recruiter on earth because we pulled in a top 15 class.  This year he is suddenly able to eval. talent better than Saban, Meyer, Brown and Jesus and therefore we shouldn't care that the class is ranked # 489.

Look at his classes at louisville and see how the players developed. There were several that were 2 or 3 star recruits out of high school who are starting in the NFL.

And also pull up louisvilles 2003 class. Look and see how many of them are playing in the NFL. Also look at Auburns class that year and Floridas and see how many of them are in the NFL from that class. Just go look at that. About the same about of players that made it.

Quite a bit of discussion about stars and BCS games, stars and NFL careers.

It would seem to me that the argument, "well, you can 'coach up' those mid-range recruits to a BCS game at Louisville, but the talent level of the SEC is too much for that", loses some teeth when those same players are in the NFL.

Said differently, if you "coach up" your 2- and 3-star guys all the way to the NFL, and UA is recruiting better than Petrino did at UL, well, I'll worry even less about the words from the "sky is falling" crowd.

I would like to add something to Oklahawg's discussion. I know a lot gets made about others recruiting classes in the SEC (Florida is mentioned a few times in this thread alone). However, the reality is not all teams are equal in the recruiting world when it comes to perception from a recruits standpoint. I would be willing to say that we will never beat Florida, Texas, USC or teams like that in recruiting on a consistent basis. Why? Look at the sheer number of recuits they have to pull from that grow up "Gator/Longhorn/Trojan fans"? Look at the sheer number of Division 1 recruits that are produced in those areas. Then you add teams like Alabama, Notre Dame and such. These teams can produce highly rated classes due to history alone.

Arkansas doesn't have many of these advantages and it really needs a sound strategy like Petrino has put forth, i.e. talented players but those who won't have the issues we see teams like Tennessee has seen.  I, like Oklahawg, am excited at Petrino's recruiting class, even if Rivals doesn't like it. Does that mean we don't miss on some players we really want? Of course not. Name me a team that gets everyone they want.  Petrino is addressing our needs for the long term. We've complained for years about a lack of depth, size and speed by previous coaching staffs. Well, I'm sure we could fill up our class with a bunch of highly rated athletes or offensive skills players and it would likely be highly rated by rivals and scout. However, that doesn't address our needs. In the end, I think addressing our needs is the most important.

Quote from: Oklahawg on December 21, 2009, 12:31:05 pm


There is another factor that has hurt some high-profile recruits with UA - they lack the work ethic that Petrino demands. It scares the recruits, in some cases. In others, the staff looks at a HS kid who is lazy and doesn't work hard in the weight room and on academics when its easy, in HS, and they get cold feet. We've pulled off of at least 4 high-profile recruits whose commitment would surge us into the top 25, if not higher, simply because of this paragraph.

I'll let that sink in - backchannel chatter suggests we pulled offers, or the equivalent, from players looking at UA or wanting to come here, because of issues unrelated to their talent on the field. Some of these kids show up with an offer and by the time they've slept in a motel for a night or two on their official visit they've lost the offer. Yet, we spew onward that our recruiting sucks.

When your only basis for analysis is stars and rankings you miss the point. Thankfully, my donation to the RF is not wasted by a staff who is lazy, or chases kids who don't have a shot of making it (either to campus, or once they are here).

"He scares the recruits".....Right on....Many recruits come for a visit and realize, that Petrino does not have the word "slacker" in his vocabulary...

I also heard Petrino evaluated a highly ranked running back....He commented that the player looked great while running the ball,but took plays off when he was not the shining star...That player did not fit Petrino's idea of work ethic in a team player.

What has Petrino done to lose trust? Some of you people are insane. The man had us yards away from a 9 or 10 win season his second year after the mess he was left with.

There have been no recruits that have been absolute busts yet. Maybe that's because they haven't been here long enough but we are certainly excited about the vast majority of last years class. What exactly has he done to lose credibility with some of you. I for one trust Petrino completely.

Great post Oklahawg, incredible insight.

This is one of the best posts I've seen in my time on this board.

Quote from: tiber on December 23, 2009, 03:16:49 pm
This is one of the best posts I've seen in my time on this board.

This is true. I read recruiting threads but almost never comment. This is good reading, explaining the points, and good civil comments. Thanks to all who've posted in this thread. I learned things today -- both information and perspective. Good work, fellows!

Quote from: Oklahawg on December 22, 2009, 07:15:37 pm


Said differently, if you "coach up" your 2- and 3-star guys all the way to the NFL, and UA is recruiting better than Petrino did at UL, well, I'll worry even less about the words from the "sky is falling" crowd.

Wait...you heard it was falling?

Quote from: El Puerco on December 23, 2009, 03:30:40 pm
Wait...you heard it was falling?

Uh, there are variables shifting that creates a sense of discomfort in some chicken little's. Urp.

Rumor has it...

Quote from: Oklahawg on December 23, 2009, 04:07:23 pm
Uh, there are variables shifting that creates a sense of discomfort in some chicken little's. Urp.

Rumor has it...

I heard we weren't even fielding a team next year.  Petrino said it himself after we missed on that defensive end from Hawaii: "Might as well pack up our tent and go home if we can't successfully recruit Hawaii any more.  We don't have nearly enough stars to bother with 2010 as it is," he said.
If the sky, as you suggest, may be falling...this recruiting won't add up to a hill of beans anyway.

Quote from: Razorfox on December 21, 2009, 12:55:54 pm
So, I'm confused...Petrino is smarter than the recruiting services because like you he uses the "eyeball test".  But a guy that works for Rivals or Scout uses another more complex (I assume) evaluation technique and will get it wrong more than Petrino will get it right.  If you and Petrino can just use your eyes to figure out who is good and bad, then why can't Rivals and Scout do that too? 

I think both sides (the star-gazers and the trust Petrino no matter what happens) are wrong.  First, a lot of the trust Petrino folks were star-gazers last year when we did have lots of stars, but they've had to change their strategy.  That's inconsistent.  You're also discounting that we've lost a lot of recruits that Petrino wanted AND had lots of stars.  In those cases, the recruiting services and Petrino wanted them, which means it's bad for us if we lose them.  the true star-gazers are discounting the possibility that a 3-star athlete can be just as good as a 4 or 5-star by their junior years. 

Our goal at Arkansas should be to get as many stars and ranked as high as we possibly can (we won't beat Florida, USC, etc but we can get as close to them as possible).  We did that last year and EVERYONE was happy and it turns out that Petrino, Scout, and Rivals were all right.  That's NOT happening this year and therefore I see why some are anxious. 

"But a guy that works for Rivals or Scout uses another more complex (I assume) evaluation technique and will get it wrong more than Petrino will get it right." 

Obviously you assume too much.  Talent "evaluators" work for recruiting services for a reason and it's not because they know more about evaluating talent than do the coaches.  Think on that for a while.

Quote from: El Puerco on December 23, 2009, 05:14:57 pm
I heard we weren't even fielding a team next year.  Petrino said it himself after we missed on that defensive end from Hawaii: "Might as well pack up our tent and go home if we can't successfully recruit Hawaii any more.  We don't have nearly enough stars to bother with 2010 as it is," he said.
If the sky, as you suggest, may be falling...this recruiting won't add up to a hill of beans anyway.

Somewhere between acidity and straight-up slapstick, we are both enjoying this, aren't we?

Quote from: Oklahawg on December 23, 2009, 06:40:17 pm
Somewhere between acidity and straight-up slapstick, we are both enjoying this, aren't we?

Maybe one of you geniuses will answer a real question at some point in this forum - why is this shaping up as the worst rated Arkansas class since ratings began?

Quote from: Oklahawg on December 22, 2009, 07:15:37 pm
Quite a bit of discussion about stars and BCS games, stars and NFL careers.

It would seem to me that the argument, "well, you can 'coach up' those mid-range recruits to a BCS game at Louisville, but the talent level of the SEC is too much for that", loses some teeth when those same players are in the NFL.

Said differently, if you "coach up" your 2- and 3-star guys all the way to the NFL, and UA is recruiting better than Petrino did at UL, well, I'll worry even less about the words from the "sky is falling" crowd.

I'd just like 1 example of this in the SEC, one SEC champ that followed this model. Maybe we will be the first, who knows. I like this class, I'm just sayin'...

Quote from: VenturaHog on December 24, 2009, 12:38:44 am
I'd just like 1 example of this in the SEC, one SEC champ that followed this model. Maybe we will be the first, who knows. I like this class, I'm just sayin'...

well i'd throw out auburn when they went undefeated although there wasn't any ranking for all of the classes on those teams.  auburn didn't usually post top 10 classes under tubby but they were solid.

Quote from: Kenny Hawgins on December 24, 2009, 12:43:57 am
well i'd throw out auburn when they went undefeated although there wasn't any ranking for all of the classes on those teams.  auburn didn't usually post top 10 classes under tubby but they were solid.

Hard to gauge that on since rankings started for rivals in 02. Their 02 class ranked #6, and their 03 class ranked #11. Not too shabby.

Quote from: VenturaHog on December 24, 2009, 12:48:20 am
Hard to gauge that on since rankings started for rivals in 02. Their 02 class ranked #6, and their 03 class ranked #11. Not too shabby.

i'm thinking the entire time tubby was there since rankings started.  overall they were solid but not amazing classes if i remember right.

Quote from: VenturaHog on December 24, 2009, 12:38:44 am
I'd just like 1 example of this in the SEC, one SEC champ that followed this model. Maybe we will be the first, who knows. I like this class, I'm just sayin'...

I know its not the answer you are looking for, but we had a legit shot in 2006. Our recruiting ranks in the SEC werent that stellar the 4 years prior nor after an SEC championship appearance:

2002: 8th
2003: 8th
2004: 7th
2005: 8th
2006: 9th
2007: 9th

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that CBP is bring in superior athletes compared to what HDN brought in, aside from the obvious McFaddens, Hillis, and Jones.  Not to mention, recruiting wasnt near as tough back then, Florida was down and  Alabama was in turmoil.

You don't need top-10 talent to win the SEC. You *DO* need top-10 talent to dominate in the SEC.

The depth from consistent elite recruiting (along with good coaching and some luck) is the difference between being a 2-3-loss SEC-W champ and getting the upset in the SECCG and being a 0-1 loss SEC-W champ and going to the NC.

Quote from: 31to6 on December 24, 2009, 01:08:54 am
You don't need top-10 talent to win the SEC. You *DO* need top-10 talent to dominate in the SEC.

The depth from consistent elite recruiting (along with good coaching and some luck) is the difference between being a 2-3-loss SEC-W champ and getting the upset in the SECCG and being a 0-1 loss SEC-W champ and going to the NC.

You also gotta fill holes in your team before you can make that next step. Look at Alabamas class in 2007, 3 star Maquis Maze, 4 Star Rolando McClainand 3 star William Vlachos. Saban landed some real anchors for his current team in a class that was ranked 7th in the SEC with no 5 stars.

If I could compare our recruiting class to any at this point in time, I would compare it to Alabamas in 2007. If we add 3 of the many big DL recruits we have coming in, the classes will be eerilly similar.

http://arkansas.rivals.com/commitlist.asp?Year=2007&School=2

Am wondering if a larger percentage (than the last two classes of recruits) of this years class will be red shirt candidates next year?

Quote from: bphi11ips on December 23, 2009, 09:51:02 pm
Maybe one of you geniuses will answer a real question at some point in this forum - why is this shaping up as the worst rated Arkansas class since ratings began?

They aren't rating our guys very high. Ratings are for bragging, not for believing in.

Quote from: bphi11ips on December 23, 2009, 09:51:02 pm
Maybe one of you geniuses will answer a real question at some point in this forum - why is this shaping up as the worst rated Arkansas class since ratings began?

I guess this year, Rivals doesn't agree with Petrino.  One of two things is happening: Either Petrino / Rivals is wrong OR we actually wanted a lot of the guys Rivals thought were hot stuff...but we didn't get any of them.  We've had some misses this year but this amount seems in line with the usual number of whiffs for anybody.

The one thing that's clear is that Petrino doesn't give a turkey (...at all...whatsoever....he means it, he's not just saying it...) about stars.  Everyone was happy with last year's haul which included a whole lot of 3 star guys that have been pleasant surprises (and that's really what we're arguing here is the disappointment and acknowledgment of the poor personal self worth that is associated with Arkansas signing 3 star athletes vs the glory of God and all that is good that is brought 4 and 5 superduperstar signees) and I'd bet good money that Petrino hasn't changed what he's looking for or how he does things one bit since then.
Our Rivals ranking will likely improve after signing day but not enough to make most happy.  We're not going to know if Rivals was right or if Petrino was right for some time so there's not much use fretting over it and Petrino isn't about to extend scholarship offers to 37 highly rated, yet mostly retarded JUCO placements and/or known felons to artificially inflate our ranking and save face because he just doesn't care.
I guess if, in a few years, a lot of these guys don't pan out, you'll have an argument. Until then, I'll keep the faith because this guy hasn't ever come close to burning us.

Another thing:  What in the world do you guys think these Wizards at Rivals are doing?  Let me paint a picture for you: These guys are pasty, overweight, nerds who at some point weren't able to cut it in the college (high school) coaching ranks.  Whatever the reason, they continue to break down film and they're paid (probably not that well) to do what no college team is willing to pay them to do any more.  The Otis Kirk's of the world send them film on local players along with a resume' of standing scholarship offers and they spit out some (largely arbitrary) number that is later converted to a star ranking. Almost everybody that is going to play real college ball (and it aint that hard to tell who that is, because they get a list of scholarship offers and a paragraph of hype from the Otis Kirk characters along with the film) gets a 3 star ranking.  A much smaller percentage get a higher ranking.  If you have some background in football, how hard do you really think it is to sit down and watch film of a guy with 30 scholarship offers including USC and several SEC schools and come to a consensus with the other nerds that a player should get 5 stars.  Now, conversely, how hard is it to evaluate a guy with NO scholarship offers who is nowhere on Rival's radar?  Not too easy.
Unfortunately, these stars have developed a life of their own and they're not going away.  They have little value.

Quote from: bphi11ips on December 23, 2009, 09:51:02 pm
Maybe one of you geniuses will answer a real question at some point in this forum - why is this shaping up as the worst rated Arkansas class since ratings began?

It is not even close to the worst.

Maybe you'll answer one - Is there a coach out there you would rather have at the helm of our program instead of Petrino? 

Go to the Rivals site and look at our 2002 class, 24 signed and ranked #26 with 6 4* players and 13 3* players. Click on the team name, Arkansas for a look at the actual class, try to find 3 or 4 real players from that class. I will give you my pick for the best of that class, Sam Olajubutu, a 3* Lb.

If that wasn't the worse class in our history I really don't want to see the worst!