You Guys are Getting Fleeced

[Mitch C]

I have located several very nice deer (11 point, a heavy rack 10 with an 18" inside probally a 155, etc, a couple more nice 10s.) all on public land in southwest Arkansas.  Also there are several nice bucks on the lease I manage that boarders the public land.  As I have mentioned before, I do some wildlife managment work.  I had two of the members today hunt some of these bucks on the lease I found.  I went out about 8:00am til about 3:00pm and walked around to see what else I could find.

What I found is that the hunting public is being fleeced.  One of the members on the lease purchased a doe decoy and had deer pee everywhere.  He was shocked that the MATURE buck I had set him on didn't even pay attention to the pee or decoy; furthermore, he made the problem worse by blowing his grunt tube after the big buck went passed him in an effort to call him back. 

Also, as I walked around today, I heard a hunter blowing a grunt tube.  Now I cannot hear as well as a deer but even I could tell it was first not a real deer and second, coming from up in a stand.  Deer are not found in the tops of forty foot tall plantation pines.

Guys, save your money.  I know a few of you may have success stories from using this crap, but I promise the great majority of you guys have far more stories of failures with this junk. 

First, everyone blows a grunt tube too much.  Second, at the wrong time. And third, most from in a stand.  You are telegraphing to deer you are a moron and not a deer.  Most of you have never heard a deer grunt.  You wouldn't have even known they grunted had someone not told you.  Deer just don't grunt that much.

Also, you use pee in the wrong way, wrong time, etc.  You can get better results from peeing on a scrape yourself.  I swear I am going to start bottling white cream and call it "Deer Spooge" and claim it is deer semen, and if you put it on the scrape great things will happen.  I bet some of you would buy the crap. 

If you are wanting to take mature bucks, you will be far more sucessful without that crap. I promise you.  Most of the time, not only do they not fall for that stuff, but you run the big bucks off with it. 

If you insist on using it, I am sure the sellers of such crap are delighted you are suckers.  Spend you money on educational material and improve your hunting skills.

[YepItsMe]

When is the pee supposed to be used?  You said it's use at that wrong time or way, but then that it doesn't work I'm confused.  I don't use a grunt though but I've sprayed the pee on my boots to track it in from time to time.

[Mitch C]

When is the pee supposed to be used?  You said it's use at that wrong time or way, but then that it doesn't work I'm confused.  I don't use a grunt though but I've sprayed the pee on my boots to track it in from time to time.

First, research has been done by Stephen F. Austin's University students seeking their PhD's in wildlife biology.  Some of what I am saying is from their studies.

To be certain, most wild creatures have a highly developed sense of smell.  Deer communicate in part by smell.  Deer have several glands on their bodies to create different smells for different purposes.

Contrary to popular belief, both bucks and does make scrapes and they do so year round.  Srapes are used mostly by deer to mark territory.  Scapes and rubs are another form of communication used by deer.  During the Fall, certain scapes are more meaningful than others.  Most hunters wrongly assume that all scrapes are used as part of the the mating ritual.  Almost always (99.99999999999999999999999999999999999%) of the time the scapes used for the rut will have a sign post near them which will be made by a mature buck.  There are glands on a deers head between their antlers that makes the deers head waxy and has an odor to it.  This is used for two reason.  One, all the research indicates that when subordinate bucks like the signpost made by a mature buck, their antler growth is stunted and their reproductive abilities are diminished greatly.  Second, he is putting other mature bucks on notice that all the does in the area are his.  When you have a healthy population, other mature bucks are likely to come by and rub their forehead on the same sign post as to challenge the other mature buck for the "rights" for breeding.  All other scrapes are territorial and have very little if anything to do with the rut.  There value primarily is to show a bucks territory and most of the time there will be rubs on the trees along the same line as the scrapes on the ground.

The rut is brought on by the does as they start to produce pheremones.  The bucks can lick the pheremone of does and they will "taste" it by using the Flehming behavior to detect doe estrus sents.  The vomeronasal gland is on the roof of the deer's mouth.  (This is extremely important) The vomeronasal gland is not connected to the same part of the brain as the nose.  It infact is connected in such a way as to stimulate sexual impulses in the buck.

Pheremones "can" be carried by Miss; however, it is possible to collect gallons of pee from a doe in estrus and not collect a single molecule of pheremone.  Pheremones are usually deposited on signposts by the doe rubbing her [CENSORED] on the signpost.

The mostly useless is that most never has pheremones; therefore, it can't turn a buck on.  Just plain ole Miss is smelled by the nose, but not by the vomeronasal gland which makes the deer lose his mind thinking about sex.  If you are putting pee on your boot, you are mostly alerting the deer to your where abouts.  He can smell your sent over the pee and mature deer are rarely fooled by it.  Also, does don't walk around with pee on their boots.  Mostly, you have to know your bottle of pee has pheremones or it is useless.  Unless you are a biochemist, you can't know.  Assuming you did know it had phermones, you shouldn't apply it to the scrape anyhow, but the signpost.  Most of the time you will not know if a scrape is intended to mark a territory or for sex.  Just putting pheremone free pee on a scrape is useless.

That is why I say it doesn't work is because there is no way to confirm the contents of the bottle, and you also must know where to apply it.  Applying it to the boot is not good.

I personally only use pee to kill the grass off my back porch.

[YepItsMe]

So the pee period is useless no matter how you use it?

[clutch]

WTH is a "sign post"?

I usually use a wooden stake

[IronHog]

  You wouldn't have even known they grunted had someone not told you.  Deer just don't grunt that much.

  You can get better results from peeing on a scrape yourself. 

1.  I hear deer grunt and make other deer noise all the time. Every year.  What the heck are you talking about?

2.  I tried the pee on a scrape thing this year in October.  Off a 4 wheeler at noon to leave no scent.   The deer immediately started another scrape 10 yards away and lets this one go cold.  Not going to do that again.

3.  Calling deer can be effective, but it is not like duck or turkey hunting.  I would bet it works much better in the midwest as most of the commercial deer hunting world has become over obsessed with hunting giant racks.

4.  I've had deer respond in a positive manner to calling and I know serious hunters who have killed deer by rattling and blind calling.  Unless someone is sitting in a stand acting like an idiot calling  can be an adjunct to hunting but would be a poor primary strategy in most of Arkansas.

[jkstock04]

I have no idea what a signpost is so you lost me there.
While I agree 100% with everything you say about grunt calls, I don't agree with everything you say about the doe pee/estrus.  I've rarely heard of anyone using it to put it in an actual scrape...and the mock scrape thing is a thing of the past I thought.  Didn't people stop doing that in the 80's?

Here's the thing, I don't have illusions that a mature buck is gonna smell this stuff from a mile off and come barrelling towards me as a result....but I do believe that putting this stuff out aids in covering up human scent.  Scent is the most crucial thing when it comes to hunting if you ask me.  The young bucks take notice of it to be sure...but overall I use it to simply help cover my scent around my stand, and I do think it helps.  I don't apply it to myself...I apply it to a hanging wafer in front of my stands.

I've also heard of first hand success stories of drag ropes lureing in mature bucks...but I myself have never tried it.

I also use Dead Down Wind field spray and laundry detergent frequently and religiously, and guess what I haven't been smelled and or snorted at all year....and I'm not a weekend warrior, I take off work this time of year and do nothing but hunt, taking off today though...this is the first day since modern gun I haven't been up at 4:30.

I've never believed in any kind of grunt/wheezing calls...or rattleing  (I've actually scared deer off way in the distance trying that rattleing crap).  When I was younger I never believed in any of this scent stuff, and guess what almost every time I went out I got smelled and snorted at.  It absolutley sucked.  I wised up and started using some of this stuff and that crap doesn't happen any more.  I'll keep doing what I'm doing as long as it works. 

So far I've killed a pretty nice 10 pt this year and had that stuff out (I also use the sex scent wafers)....he actually came trotting in by my stand alone sniffing the air, I guarantee you he smelled some of the stuff I had out.

[SultanofSwine]

Kind of an arrogant statement to say that most of us have never heard a deer grunt. I personally have heard atleast 30 different deer make various vocalizations(grunts and bleats). Not even going to start discussing the use of a grunt call because my "in the field" experience trumps anything a bunch of snot nosed kids at some college think they know about hunting.

[Albert Einswine]

Does seem to be the most ready respondents to calling.  I've called them to the base of my tree numerous times both grunting and bleating.

I'm strictly a meat hunter so that's OK with me as I'd rather kill does to eat, anyway.

I've also grunted coyotes and fox to my treestand.

[Seconds]

I have no idea what a signpost is so you lost me there.

Good grief. A "signpost" is the small tree, branch, or otherwise somewhat solid and stationary object that the male deer typically rubs his antlers on, leaving the tree marked with fresh cuts exposing the innermost wood.

[SultanofSwine]

Actually a sign post is a typically straight section of either wood or metal stood vertically in the ground that has a placard imparting various types of information usually attached near the highest point above the ground.

Those marked up spots on small trees and saplings are what we like to call rubs due to the nature in which the marks were left on the said tree or sapling.

[Seconds]

Actually a sign post is a typically straight section of either wood or metal stood vertically in the ground that has a placard imparting various types of information usually attached near the highest point above the ground.

Those marked up spots on small trees and saplings are what we like to call rubs due to the nature in which the marks were left on the said tree or sapling.

They are also called "signposts" in the hunting vernacular. I can't help the "good old boys" that just don't get it.

[jkstock04]

Good grief. A "signpost" is the small tree, branch, or otherwise somewhat solid and stationary object that the male deer typically rubs his antlers on, leaving the tree marked with fresh cuts exposing the innermost wood.

Where I'm from we call them buckrubs.  "Signposts" must be the yankee name for it....I figured this was what the deal was.

[Mitch C]

Good grief. A "signpost" is the small tree, branch, or otherwise somewhat solid and stationary object that the male deer typically rubs his antlers on, leaving the tree marked with fresh cuts exposing the innermost wood.

Buck rubs are a type of sign post, but the ones I am talking about look more like a rub that wasn't finished.  Those are the ones near scapes with waxy fragrance from the deer.

[Mitch C]

So the pee period is useless no matter how you use it?

Basically yes,  Unless you know for sure your bottle has pheremones in it.  Pheremones are not transmitted by the urinary track but through glands near the does vaginal area.  Consequently, the Miss sometimes contains pheremones.  Its not he pee their after, its the pheremones.  Pee with pheremones can be applied to a sign post but all you do is make the deer horny which makes him stupid.

[Albert Einswine]

Buck rubs are a type of sign post, but the ones I am talking about look more like a rub that wasn't finished.  Those are the ones near scapes with waxy fragrance from the deer.

I've seen those.  They more or less abrade the bark but don't expose any of the softwood under the bark.

Looks more like a miniature bear rub.

[Mitch C]

1.  I hear deer grunt and make other deer noise all the time. Every year.  What the heck are you talking about?

You may, but most hunters don't.  You ask them yourselves. 

Kind of an arrogant statement to say that most of us have never heard a deer grunt. I personally have heard atleast 30 different deer make various vocalizations(grunts and bleats). Not even going to start discussing the use of a grunt call because my "in the field" experience trumps anything a bunch of snot nosed kids at some college think they know about hunting.

I didn't say you haven't.  Do your own research.  Ask other hunters.  I am 43 and been doing this work since I was 22, and I can tell you until grunt calls and the outdoor chanel, I rarely knew anyone who even know a deer grunted, much less a snort wease.  I would also wager that mostly what responds to your grunts are not mature bucks, but mostly younger bucks or even a doty (which is the mature bucks flunky).  If you feel they work for you, go buy it.

[Mitch C]

Guys, I am sorry.  These post sound arrogant and angry.  I am pissed at the manufacturers for KNOWINGLY ripping us off.

[southeasthog]

Guys, I am sorry.  These post sound arrogant and angry.  I am pissed at the manufacturers for KNOWINGLY ripping us y'all off.

Fixed it because apparently you know better.

[mah5969]

I have located several very nice deer (11 point, a heavy rack 10 with an 18" inside probally a 155, etc, a couple more nice 10s.) all on public land in southwest Arkansas.  Also there are several nice bucks on the lease I manage that boarders the public land.  As I have mentioned before, I do some wildlife managment work.  I had two of the members today hunt some of these bucks on the lease I found.  I went out about 8:00am til about 3:00pm and walked around to see what else I could find.

What I found is that the hunting public is being fleeced.  One of the members on the lease purchased a doe decoy and had deer pee everywhere.  He was shocked that the MATURE buck I had set him on didn't even pay attention to the pee or decoy; furthermore, he made the problem worse by blowing his grunt tube after the big buck went passed him in an effort to call him back. 

Also, as I walked around today, I heard a hunter blowing a grunt tube.  Now I cannot hear as well as a deer but even I could tell it was first not a real deer and second, coming from up in a stand.  Deer are not found in the tops of forty foot tall plantation pines.

Guys, save your money.  I know a few of you may have success stories from using this crap, but I promise the great majority of you guys have far more stories of failures with this junk. 

First, everyone blows a grunt tube too much.  Second, at the wrong time. And third, most from in a stand.  You are telegraphing to deer you are a moron and not a deer.  Most of you have never heard a deer grunt.  You wouldn't have even known they grunted had someone not told you.  Deer just don't grunt that much.

Also, you use pee in the wrong way, wrong time, etc.  You can get better results from peeing on a scrape yourself.  I swear I am going to start bottling white cream and call it "Deer Spooge" and claim it is deer semen, and if you put it on the scrape great things will happen.  I bet some of you would buy the crap. 

If you are wanting to take mature bucks, you will be far more sucessful without that crap. I promise you.  Most of the time, not only do they not fall for that stuff, but you run the big bucks off with it. 

If you insist on using it, I am sure the sellers of such crap are delighted you are suckers.  Spend you money on educational material and improve your hunting skills.

Otay............Jackie bushman

[mr4pt]

I felt the same way as PT did until about 5 years ago.  My brother in law was consistantly killing wall hangers.  So after listening to him and trying to gather how he was doing it (other than being in the big buck capitol of AR) finally asked him if he used a grunt call.  He looked at me like I was an alien and told me, "If you are NOT using a grunt call in November you are missing out". 

Now I have heard deer grunt and bleat (never snort/wheeze or whatever that ridiculous thing is) but never used a grunt call until 5 years ago.  He was absolutely correct, the amount of big mature bucks I have killed and grunted in during the past 5 years is more than I've seen the rest of my 35 years of hunting.

[twistitup]

Pork,
Why the heck are you pissed if you don't use any of the 'crap' sold on the market. Glad you are looking out for the rest of us, but save it....please.

Some of us have actually tried and had success with all products you have mentioned. Its called 'different strokes for different folks'. I personally have had 8 deer come into Tinks Draw 2 in the last week. 3- Buck 5 Doe. Also, I grunt and have had success for 3 years in a row and will continue to do so until the deer prove me wrong.

[BlakeHOGfanatic]

I have located several very nice deer (11 point, a heavy rack 10 with an 18" inside probally a 155, etc, a couple more nice 10s.) all on public land in southwest Arkansas.  Also there are several nice bucks on the lease I manage that boarders the public land.  As I have mentioned before, I do some wildlife managment work.  I had two of the members today hunt some of these bucks on the lease I found.  I went out about 8:00am til about 3:00pm and walked around to see what else I could find.

What I found is that the hunting public is being fleeced.  One of the members on the lease purchased a doe decoy and had deer pee everywhere.  He was shocked that the MATURE buck I had set him on didn't even pay attention to the pee or decoy; furthermore, he made the problem worse by blowing his grunt tube after the big buck went passed him in an effort to call him back. 

Also, as I walked around today, I heard a hunter blowing a grunt tube.  Now I cannot hear as well as a deer but even I could tell it was first not a real deer and second, coming from up in a stand.  Deer are not found in the tops of forty foot tall plantation pines.

Guys, save your money.  I know a few of you may have success stories from using this crap, but I promise the great majority of you guys have far more stories of failures with this junk. 

First, everyone blows a grunt tube too much.  Second, at the wrong time. And third, most from in a stand.  You are telegraphing to deer you are a moron and not a deer.  Most of you have never heard a deer grunt.  You wouldn't have even known they grunted had someone not told you.  Deer just don't grunt that much.

Also, you use pee in the wrong way, wrong time, etc.  You can get better results from peeing on a scrape yourself.  I swear I am going to start bottling white cream and call it "Deer Spooge" and claim it is deer semen, and if you put it on the scrape great things will happen.  I bet some of you would buy the crap. 

If you are wanting to take mature bucks, you will be far more sucessful without that crap. I promise you.  Most of the time, not only do they not fall for that stuff, but you run the big bucks off with it. 

If you insist on using it, I am sure the sellers of such crap are delighted you are suckers.  Spend you money on educational material and improve your hunting skills.

Have you killed one of them yet.  I haven't seen any pictures of 155 inch 11 pt you killed this year.  So your tactics must not be doing you all that much good.  I'm not doubting that you are fairly knowledgable. But i'm going to go ahead and say you talk a little to big for your britches.  You act like your the god of hunting or something. It does make me laugh.

[Albert Einswine]

This is a great thread.  I've heard both bucks and does grunt while hunting. Several years ago I had a group of seven does work past me within 10 yards as I sat on a stool in a thicket in Izard County and the lead long nose was grunting and bleating nearly non-stop.

It was as though she was giving instruction to the rest of the group.  They never saw me and I let them go in hopes they'd work over to oldest boy who was a young teen at the time.

I've seen several bucks grunting non-stop as they chased does.  I've only grunted one buck to my stand in my life.  That was in Izard County, also.  It was just before absolute dark and within 30 seconds of a grunt series a basket rack stepped out of a small wood patch on my uncle's back pasture and trotted across a narrow sliver of pasture to the edge of the treeline I was set up in on the back 40 of the property.

He locked up at the edge of the fenceline about 15 yards from my tree, nose in the air trying to get a fix on the "grunter".

By the time I got contorted around to draw on him the light had faded to the point that I was shooting at a silhouette and couldn't make out my sight pins anymore.  Missed him cleanly.

[Mitch C]

Have you killed one of them yet.  I haven't seen any pictures of 155 inch 11 pt you killed this year.  So your tactics must not be doing you all that much good.  I'm not doubting that you are fairly knowledgable. But i'm going to go ahead and say you talk a little to big for your britches.  You act like your the god of hunting or something. It does make me laugh.

Don't want him but I can tell you where he is if you want to go for him.  If you live in southewest arkansas let me know and I can either tell you or take you and show you.

By the way,  I am not the God of hunting but I have been a paid consultant for 18 years.

[SultanofSwine]

I have grunted in multiple mature bucks, didnt kill 'em all but that is due to operator error not because the deer didnt respond. I also have video of more than one mature buck that came to calling. I have a good friend that has killed over 30 bucks between 130" and 180" with a bow and over 60% of those bucks were killed by calling.

Maybe I have seen more evidence that contradicts your theory because I only bowhunt and it is afterall a close range endeavor. Or maybe all of my experience over the last 20+ years of bowhunting is a fig newton of my imagination.

[Mitch C]

Fixed it because apparently you know better.

I am confused.  What did I fix and what do i know better than?

[Mitch C]

I have grunted in multiple mature bucks, didnt kill 'em all but that is due to operator error not because the deer didnt respond. I also have video of more than one mature buck that came to calling. I have a good friend that has killed over 30 bucks between 130" and 180" with a bow and over 60% of those bucks were killed by calling.

Maybe I have seen more evidence that contradicts your theory because I only bowhunt and it is afterall a close range endeavor. Or maybe all of my experience over the last 20+ years of bowhunting is a fig newton of my imagination.

You and your friend kill your deer far more because of your developed hunting skill than grunts and calls.  First, you both have put yourself where the big deer are which is something most people can't do.  I almost hate to say this next part because you guys are thinking I am taking back what I said, but grunt and rattles can be used successfully.  The overwhelming majority of the time, mature bucks are ran off by the way most people grunt and rattle.  Grunts, rattles, sents, etc don't make you automatically a better hunter.  A good hunter can have good results with grunting and rattling.  The difference just blowing your tube from a deer stand is not good technique.  Finding the known sanctuary of a known mature buck, and developing his pattern to know when he will be there, a season proficient hunter can have success rattleing and grunting him out.  I see big deer all the time and have posted photos on this website before, and I quit grunting and rattling years ago.  I have much more success without it.

[SultanofSwine]

That post right there I can agree with whole heartedly.

Pork if you have noticed I have made no mention of scents, dont use or believe in them also because of field experience. I'd rather smell as much like dirt as possible and hunt the wind. As far as smelling like dirt, I take my outer layer and walllow it in the dirt around the base of a big tree after raking the top layer of leaves back. I do this in the area I am hunting. Since I started doing this about 15 years ago, I have had better success with deer winding me than anything else. Still get winded from time to time but more times than not the deer will just ease off rather than going into one of those full blown snorting fits they are prone too.

[Albert Einswine]

I use the scent-away body wash and wash my clothes in the no scent, no UV brighteners detergent and I haven't had a foot stomping, snorting episode in 15 years.

[SultanofSwine]

I use the spray on inner layers and do the wash in hot water with a little shot of baking soda.

[Mitch C]

Now yall are onto another great subject.  The vision of deer is totally different than ours.  Deer can see in color, but not like you and I can.  There are colors on the color spectrum they can't distinguish.  Blaze orange looks to them identical to brown, but they have an incredible ability to see ultraviolet colors our eyes cannot begin to see.  The question really isn't camo patterns, but are your garmets lit up with UV enhancers.  You can have the best camo pattern in the world and look like a Christmas tree fully lighted to a deer.

[IronHog]

Now yall are onto another great subject.  The vision of deer is totally different than ours.  Deer can see in color, but not like you and I can.  There are colors on the color spectrum they can't distinguish.  Blaze orange looks to them identical to brown, but they have an incredible ability to see ultraviolet colors our eyes cannot begin to see.  The question really isn't camo patterns, but are your garmets lit up with UV enhancers.  You can have the best camo pattern in the world and look like a Christmas tree fully lighted to a deer.

I've had more trouble with deer seeing me this year than ever before, full camo with facemask, gloves, etc washed in sport wash.

When the late bow hunt comes I'm putting more effort into hiding my climber when I hunt because even unpressured early season deer are now fully on to any kind of man in a tree even one that does not move.

[Mitch C]

I've had more trouble with deer seeing me this year than ever before, full camo with facemask, gloves, etc washed in sport wash.

When the late bow hunt comes I'm putting more effort into hiding my climber when I hunt because even unpressured early season deer are now fully on to any kind of man in a tree even one that does not move.

You can get UV detectors from about $60 and up.  Some sport washes don't do what they claim either.  Sultain of Swine has a good idea of rubbing your clean clothes in dirt, but you have to be thurough. 

[195bc]

1. Every hunter I know has heard deer grunt many times. I hear deer grunt all the time. I occassionally hear grunts before I even see the deer, as happened a few weeks ago. I've had deer grunt back at me. Deer grunt a lot, sometimes a lot more than we realize. Although I don't use it much, I have called in deer with a grunt call. The Can doe bleat has called in a LOT of deer, especially during the rut.

2. Friends and I have had some very interesting results using a snort wheeze call - talk about getting a mature buck PISSED off. For example, A few years ago, I friend hunting in Illinois was using an electronic call that had a snort wheeze option. Two big bucks came trotting across field together about a 100 yds away (he was bow hunting). He hit the snort wheeze, the bucks stopped in their tracks, turned to each other, and immediately commenced a violent fight.

3. Scents, deer piss, whatever you want to call it, also work all the time. I've had success with Code Blue and Tinks estrus doe scents, putting it on my boots (or drag rag) and walking to my stand. A few years ago, a buck came straight to my tree with his nose to the ground so fast that I had not even got my release on and sat down. I often squirt out either product  once I get in my stand during pre-rut or rut, more as scent cover than anything. I has worked like a charm this year on four with deer right on top of the scent. I often put either product directly in scrapes to see what response I get, and the scrapes are usually absolutely tore up the next day. You should go read other deer forums about the success hunters have with scents every day this time of year.

My experiences referred to here are with free-ranging deer. I've spent a lot of time in high-fence pens (ranging from 40 to 1300 acres) for different type of work with deer. I've seen all kinds of things in pens that I didn't mention in this post.

PorkThis - not to start an argument, but you make yourself out to be an expert on deer, but I often question many of your comments because they are FAR from the truth.

[Mitch C]

1. Every hunter I know has heard deer grunt many times. I hear deer grunt all the time. I occassionally hear grunts before I even see the deer, as happened a few weeks ago. I've had deer grunt back at me. Deer grunt a lot, sometimes a lot more than we realize. Although I don't use it much, I have called in deer with a grunt call. The Can doe bleat has called in a LOT of deer, especially during the rut.

2. Friends and I have had some very interesting results using a snort wheeze call - talk about getting a mature buck PISSED off. For example, A few years ago, I friend hunting in Illinois was using an electronic call that had a snort wheeze option. Two big bucks came trotting across field together about a 100 yds away (he was bow hunting). He hit the snort wheeze, the bucks stopped in their tracks, turned to each other, and immediately commenced a violent fight.

3. Scents, deer piss, whatever you want to call it, also work all the time. I've had success with Code Blue and Tinks estrus doe scents, putting it on my boots (or drag rag) and walking to my stand. A few years ago, a buck came straight to my tree with his nose to the ground so fast that I had not even got my release on and sat down. I often squirt out either product  once I get in my stand during pre-rut or rut, more as scent cover than anything. I has worked like a charm this year on four with deer right on top of the scent. I often put either product directly in scrapes to see what response I get, and the scrapes are usually absolutely tore up the next day. You should go read other deer forums about the success hunters have with scents every day this time of year.

My experiences referred to here are with free-ranging deer. I've spent a lot of time in high-fence pens (ranging from 40 to 1300 acres) for different type of work with deer. I've seen all kinds of things in pens that I didn't mention in this post.

PorkThis - not to start an argument, but you make yourself out to be an expert on deer, but I often question many of your comments because they are FAR from the truth.

You have told me before you work for a company that represents such products.  If that is true, then you are no expert.  My information is based on the research of institutions of higher learning and my own field studies.  I have read your Mickey Mouse comments.  You would be better served writing for Outdoor Life and Field & Stream than academic journals.

[Mitch C]

I guess I need to change my log in to 197bc

[clutch]

I guess I need to change my log in to 197bc

Did you grunt him up?

[hogdiggity]

Don't want him but I can tell you where he is if you want to go for him.  If you live in southewest arkansas let me know and I can either tell you or take you and show you.

By the way,  I am not the God of hunting but I have been a paid consultant for 18 years.

I live in SW Ark, give me some details, I'm all about laying the smack down on a big ole buck

[wendellgee]

I live in SW Ark, give me some details, I'm all about laying the smack down on a big ole buck

Me too. I'll settle for some 130 class deer in SW Ark. PorkThis- I prefer a lease that is within a 30 minute drive from the local Hooter's.

[195bc]

Shooting a big deer doesn't make you an expert. The biggest buck I killed was dumb luck, and he grossed right at 200. I don't dare to claim I'm an "expert" because I shot that deer. I know a lot of hunters that have patterned and killed more big deer than I have.
Maybe you know a little about deer management - that's great, it's not complicated. Maybe you're a good hunter - that's great too. And if you help get some fellow Hogville members on a good lease - even better. Everybody should have the opportunity to shoot a few big bucks in their lifetime.
But your comments about grunting and scents in this thread simply aren't true. I've worked in the hunting and fishing industry for a long time, and there are many gimmicks out there. But there also many products that do work, products that are thoroughly researched.
And several of your past comments on food plot forages I know are not accurate - I know that for a fact.
Years ago, when I wrote more for hunting and fishing publications and traveled around the country hunting and fishing, I learned a valuable lesson. Just because I, or my local group of friends, didn't have success with a certain product or tactic, that didn't mean everyone else also had the same experience. 

[Albert Einswine]

Hot diggity!  We've got a us a bona fide pissing match right here in Hunting and Fishing!

YeeHawwww!

[IronHog]

Hot diggity!  We've got a us a bona fide pissing match right here in Hunting and Fishing!

YeeHawwww!

Grandpa always said nothing would make a fool out of a good man faster than deer hunting.

He was right about most things.................

[Porkys Revenge]

Well pork this, hate to burst your bubble but your are full of $hit. Period. I just happen to be an outfitter on my ranch in kansas. Want to know how many deer i heard grunt yesterday before 10 am? Ten. Want to know how many my buddy and I grunted up before 10 am? Seven. Oh yeah, the seventh deer was a 170 incher that came within 13 yards before he stuck it in the heart, all on video. I won't even go into the use if doe estrous, dominant buck Miss or the use of tarsal glands, but  they work just fine for my customers and I. Maybe your just not a good hunter? I use the things that you claim don't work every year to my advantage. I also manage to put one in the recordbooks every year. Your post shows your ignorance.

[Porkys Revenge]

Why don't you post something that is valid such as the requirement of an overhanging limb above a scrape? This is required so that a deer may rub his preorbital gland on it. Go back, read some more books and then act like you know something about deer hunting. I guess rattling doesn't work either? Tell that to the 196 we rattled in and killed 2 weeks ago. I think I'll just stick to doing what works for me, year after year after year. You can continue calling people idiots for buying certain deer attractants, I'll contine using them and banging down recordbook bucks.

[Mitch C]

Shooting a big deer doesn't make you an expert. The biggest buck I killed was dumb luck, and he grossed right at 200. I don't dare to claim I'm an "expert" because I shot that deer. I know a lot of hunters that have patterned and killed more big deer than I have.
Maybe you know a little about deer management - that's great, it's not complicated. Maybe you're a good hunter - that's great too. And if you help get some fellow Hogville members on a good lease - even better. Everybody should have the opportunity to shoot a few big bucks in their lifetime.
But your comments about grunting and scents in this thread simply aren't true. I've worked in the hunting and fishing industry for a long time, and there are many gimmicks out there. But there also many products that do work, products that are thoroughly researched.
And several of your past comments on food plot forages I know are not accurate - I know that for a fact.
Years ago, when I wrote more for hunting and fishing publications and traveled around the country hunting and fishing, I learned a valuable lesson. Just because I, or my local group of friends, didn't have success with a certain product or tactic, that didn't mean everyone else also had the same experience. 

I too make a living.  Your comments about foodplots are a joke.  Your comments about calls, sents and other stuff are exceptions to the rule.  I imagine you work for a company that sells this crap and have a vested intrest in people being fleeced. 

Neither I, nor you nor no one needs this crap.  If you and Porky and the rest of you want to keep using it, God bless you. 

My partner and I have several places we manage and they put bucks in the record books there without a drop of pee and with all of my food plot techniques.  James Kroll even started using my foodplot techniques and has had success and said so on film at one of his last symposiums he did.

Hogdiggity and SultanofSwine are going to get set up on two bucks, and I will let them tell you what its all about.

Well pork this, hate to burst your bubble but your are full of $hit. Period. I just happen to be an outfitter on my ranch in kansas. Want to know how many deer i heard grunt yesterday before 10 am? Ten. Want to know how many my buddy and I grunted up before 10 am? Seven. Oh yeah, the seventh deer was a 170 incher that came within 13 yards before he stuck it in the heart, all on video. I won't even go into the use if doe estrous, dominant buck Miss or the use of tarsal glands, but  they work just fine for my customers and I. Maybe your just not a good hunter? I use the things that you claim don't work every year to my advantage. I also manage to put one in the recordbooks every year. Your post shows your ignorance.

I don't need gimmicks to see big deer.  You couldn't stand in my hunting shadow.

[Mitch C]

Why don't you post something that is valid such as the requirement of an overhanging limb above a scrape? This is required so that a deer may rub his preorbital gland on it. Go back, read some more books and then act like you know something about deer hunting. I guess rattling doesn't work either? Tell that to the 196 we rattled in and killed 2 weeks ago. I think I'll just stick to doing what works for me, year after year after year. You can continue calling people idiots for buying certain deer attractants, I'll contine using them and banging down recordbook bucks.

I'll save my money and keep banging down recordbook bucks.

[NuttSu]

I have located several very nice deer (11 point, a heavy rack 10 with an 18" inside probally a 155, etc, a couple more nice 10s.) all on public land in southwest Arkansas.  Also there are several nice bucks on the lease I manage that boarders the public land.  As I have mentioned before, I do some wildlife managment work.  I had two of the members today hunt some of these bucks on the lease I found.  I went out about 8:00am til about 3:00pm and walked around to see what else I could find.

What I found is that the hunting public is being fleeced.  One of the members on the lease purchased a doe decoy and had deer pee everywhere.  He was shocked that the MATURE buck I had set him on didn't even pay attention to the pee or decoy; furthermore, he made the problem worse by blowing his grunt tube after the big buck went passed him in an effort to call him back. 

Also, as I walked around today, I heard a hunter blowing a grunt tube.  Now I cannot hear as well as a deer but even I could tell it was first not a real deer and second, coming from up in a stand.  Deer are not found in the tops of forty foot tall plantation pines.

Guys, save your money.  I know a few of you may have success stories from using this crap, but I promise the great majority of you guys have far more stories of failures with this junk. 

First, everyone blows a grunt tube too much.  Second, at the wrong time. And third, most from in a stand.  You are telegraphing to deer you are a moron and not a deer.  Most of you have never heard a deer grunt.  You wouldn't have even known they grunted had someone not told you.  Deer just don't grunt that much.

Also, you use pee in the wrong way, wrong time, etc.  You can get better results from peeing on a scrape yourself.  I swear I am going to start bottling white cream and call it "Deer Spooge" and claim it is deer semen, and if you put it on the scrape great things will happen.  I bet some of you would buy the crap. 

If you are wanting to take mature bucks, you will be far more sucessful without that crap. I promise you.  Most of the time, not only do they not fall for that stuff, but you run the big bucks off with it. 

If you insist on using it, I am sure the sellers of such crap are delighted you are suckers.  Spend you money on educational material and improve your hunting skills.

Im no expert,but i have been deer hunting for about 30 years.From my experience,grunt calls and scents have been useless to me as far as bagging a mature buck.Every mature deer ive taken i was  just sitting quietly, keeping my calls in my pocket and the piss in the bottles.I have called in probably over 100 2.5 and 3.5 y/o bucks over the years but have never had an old bruiser come in to a call.I have blown them softly,aggressive,and every other way there is with no success. It probably has something to do with my location.Here in south Ar there is no competition for split-leg,plenty to go around.I think a grunt call would work alot better where the buck to doe ratio is more compatible.
  The only call i take in the woods is a snort/wheeze,and i only use it when i see a big one,and hes traveling away from me and i want to  get him traveling my direction.
I have taken a couple of nice bucks with a snort/wheeze.If you want to get a bucks attention,carry a snort/wheeze call in the woods with you.
  I know that calls work ,i know many that have taken good deer with grunts and doe in estrus cans,but they have never worked for me and ive used them alot over the years.You have to go with what works for YOU and your hunting area.

[bd93]

I'm no expert,but i have been deer hunting for about 30 years.From my experience,grunt calls and scents have been useless to me as far as bagging a mature buck.Every mature deer Ive taken i was just sitting quietly, keeping my calls in my pocket and the piss in the bottles.I have called in probably over 100 2.5 and 3.5 y/o bucks over the years but have never had an old bruiser come in to a call.I have blown them softly,aggressive,and every other way there is with no success. It probably has something to do with my location.Here in south Ar there is no competition for split-leg,plenty to go around.I think a grunt call would work alot better where the buck to doe ratio is more compatible.
  The only call i take in the woods is a snort/wheeze,and i only use it when i see a big one,and hes traveling away from me and i want to get him traveling my direction.
I have taken a couple of nice bucks with a snort/wheeze.If you want to get a bucks attention,carry a snort/wheeze call in the woods with you.
  I know that calls work ,i know many that have taken good deer with grunts and doe in estrus cans,but they have never worked for me and Ive used them alot over the years.You have to go with what works for YOU and your hunting area.

I'm pretty much with you.  I've never called in a old biggin' but I have set there and seen them come along and then call them in closer with a blat (or bleat) and grunted them in too.  But I don't blind call hardly any at all.  I'll use my bleat call every once and a while but not a whole lot.  My biggest thing is the people that don't know how to use the calls right, scare off deer and then complain about the calls not working right.

As far as scents and pee, I use scent-away spray and deodorant.  I'll usually roll them in dirt a little bit as a scent cover and then spray them with the UV spray.  I don't use the pee any though.

[geoffhog]

Put Sultan on a good one, Team Hoyt needs the points.